Hi there guys. Once again, here to ask for advice: critical and objective thoughts on auriok champion as a 2-of SB card? I am still fighting with those 2 spots in my SB for aggresive strategies like burn and zoo.
Now I am using 2 blessed alliances, since they also help in the Eldrazi MU (althought I am already playing 2 wraths for that sake... ).
Champion seems better positioned against Death Shadow variants, but these Mu's seems already quite favourable, so I am not sure there is a real argument there.
Hi there guys. Once again, here to ask for advice: critical and objective thoughts on auriok champion as a 2-of SB card? I am still fighting with those 2 spots in my SB for aggresive strategies like burn and zoo.
Now I am using 2 blessed alliances, since they also help in the Eldrazi MU (althought I am already playing 2 wraths for that sake... ).
Champion seems better positioned against Death Shadow variants, but these Mu's seems already quite favourable, so I am not sure there is a real argument there.
Also, WW is kind of tough on my Lilis.
My personnal favorite to deal with aggro is either more removal (Runed halo, Blessed alliance) or more life gain. (Timely reinfocment, Auriok Champion) Aside from burn, Aggro is also really prone to being screwed by a well timed Zealous persecution. If you want to deal with aggro as a whole, Blessed alliance is probably the most versatile as it's removal and/or life gain and it can deal with eldrazies pretty well... I personally run two runed and two reinforcements right now, but my meta is not that big on death shadow decks so I could see an argument be made for auriok champion in a meta full of them.
If you're a little more black and you're looking for a boardwipe, I'm actually testing a singleton copy of Bontu's last reckoning. Come one turn earlier than Wrath, which can save your life in some match-up (Elf, Zoo, Merfolk), however it really is just good against an overextending opponent because of that land stay tapped clause. It's pretty good against aggro so far, but Still testing it though...
Has anyone tried changing the mana base to use 4 blood moon in sb?
If your meta has you needing to sideboard 4 blood moons (I'm guessing a ton of tron), then you can make this super easy modification to the tokens deck to completely turn the MU around. I've been enjoying a 80-20 MU against tron after this adjustment.
I've found that after this slight adjustment it was a lot easier to fit in the sideboard moons. The U splash introduced cantrips and tutors to help find your answers too, if you don't just kill them outright turn 3 or make the tokens kill with 12 goblins on turn 2 anyway.
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I love how you kept the spirit of BW Tokens alive with this very slight splash of UR.
If only I could fit the plan into the sideboard. Alas, it is slightly larger than the 15 card allowance.
In all seriousness though. I brew a lot, more than the average FNMer, and trust me when I say I've tried to modify this deck to fight tron. It doesn't work. We're dug into our premise as a solidly midrange deck. They're maining all the wipes, all of which require different hate/counters to dodge (ugin/o stone/dust/anger/ratchet bomb), and we don't have answers to a land based combo in our colors. Our best chance is to ghost quarter + surgical, and that's pretty horrible.
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in the modern monday local event, I preferred to play jund because there were already 3 bw Tokens in the meta.
Result: I faced the three!
Bad Lucky in the pairings but luck in the games (of course I prepared the jund against Tokens within the possible).
Surgical Extraction can easily be substituted with Extirpate if budget is a problem. They both do the same thing, upside of Surgical is that the mana cost can be 2 life instead of B and it can technically be played in any deck regardless of colors, while Extirpate is a Final word type card that can't be countered or responded to, meaning it will never (rarely?) fizzle. 99.999% of situations they'll do the same thing, but I'm pretty sure the splashability of Surgical is more liked then extirpate's "nope" properties, hence the price.
With that being said, I may sell one or two now that I know they're 25$ each. wtf mtg market... weren't those like not even 5$ not so long ago?
So I'm really happy with this build. Here are my thoughts going forward:
Man there is a huge difference between 2 Bitterblossom in the deck and 4 Bitterblossom. The card really does shift the build to the control direction, it's so weird how different it feels with what seems like such a minor change.
Because of this I really want to try 1-2 Liliana of the Veil in this deck. I would probably sub out 1 Sorin and 1 Start // Finish to fit in a couple. I think it would work well and I know some people already play her in the deck.
I definitely want to swap out my Caves of Koilos for Marsh Flats but obviously that is gonna happen slowly. I also want to swap out a Plains for a lone copy of Fetid Heath. I think it is especially important to have this if you're running the Lili's just because it really does give you that extra flexibility early game to pay BB or WW as needed.
I don't have a second Vault of the Archangel but I think I want one and I might take out a Shambling vent for it. Vault has helped a lot as another lifelink outlet. Definitely feeling the lifeloss from all the godless shrines and thoughtseizes etc. It adds up and having the lifelink option whether through Sorin or Archangel is important I feel. Also the deathtouch can stalemate boards and allow you to build up the pieces to win (usually through dmg overhead and vigilance for defense).
Also want to swap a Isolated Chapel for a 2nd fetch land, probably Windswept Heath or Flooded Strand or something like that.
I didn't like Legion's Landing for my build but I think it's a good choice for an aggro shell. Same for Secure the wastes. I think Start // Finish is amazing, the extra removal is actually incredible. The vigilance on the grounded tokens is also great for when you don't have virtue but still want to get off damage early or lifelink with sorin's +1 etc.
Have not tried Collective Brutality yet. I think that my Zealous Persecutions are in the CB's spot at the moment. I probably prefer the instant anthem to the extra discard/flex spell but it would be worth trying. I'll do it if I can get some easily but I'm not going out of my way to get them at this point.
Now it's a matter of maybe upgrading the sideboard and then learning how to board against certain decks.
I'm bringing this to my first tournament tonight! Just wanted to get your opinions on a few things:
-2 GQ, +1 Shambling Vents, +1 Plains: I've been hesitant to go to 3 vents, but some people say its fine, and GQ has done nothing really for me. Not sure if I should leave one in, or take it out for the extra plains.
-1-2 ????, +1-2 Honor of the Pure: In a build that currently does not have bitterblossom, is 1-2 Honor of the Pure worth it? Torn on this.
Lost Legacy / Blessed Alliance / Disenchant / Sundering Growth: Am I gonna severely miss having some number of these in my sideboard? Took most of them
out because I wasn't sure how good they are vs. the meta, but I haven't played vs. too many tier 1 decks.
Lastly, any tips on my ratios of like Raise the Alarm vs. Start//Finish? Am I messing anything up with those or do the ratios look fine? Thanks!
I have been lurking on this thread for a long time as I slowly build up what I hope is a solid BW Tokens list. I have had mixed results at my local modern events, but overall I am pretty happy with the list that I have. Budget, and concerns about expensive cards being playable in other decks has stopped me from getting cards like Bitterblossom, but overall I am pretty happy with my list.
Any feedback would be welcome. I have been going for a more aggressive build, since my meta features a bunch of combo decks like storm/adnaus and tron (mostly eldrazi and mono blue)I try to have as broad a sideboard as possible while still having "I win cards for matchups that I see commonly, and I try to aggressively side out dead spells.
I find that I am having trouble recently with combo matchups, and matchups that are like combo, like Lantern. I have the cards that I need to win in my deck, but consistently getting in hand, on time is a problem. Discard obviously helps a lot, but I find myself losing a lot of games to people top decking. Are there any obvious things I could be doing to make my combo match ups better?
Overall I think the deck is in a very strong place. The aggro/affinity/burn match ups seem very strong, especially after sideboarding. The G/B/x midrange matchup also seems strong, since they are much weaker to removal, and numerous chump blockers encourage them to overextend into my one sided board wipes. Death shadow matchups are harder than G/B/X because of stubborn denial, but I still generally feel favored. Valakut decks would almost definitely be borderline unwinnable, barring a turn 3 Lost Legacy, but I rarely see those decks.
The only non-standard cards I have in my list are 2 Legion's Landing, 2 Shefet Dunes and a Dusk // Dawn. All of these cards tend to be very good in a number of matchups. Legion's landing is trivially easy to flip, and I find that running two lets me cut a land without any issues. The tokens that it make are great for blocking, and get out of hand with anthems. Dusk // Dawn is only usable on the front side, but that front side is often a 1 sided boardwipe. It is most important against eldrazi decks (especially Reality Smasher), G/B/X, and Death's Shadow decks. Shefet Dunes is a land when you need one, and an anthem when you don't. It effectively costs 5 mana, which is an issue, and every time I use it I dream of it being a Gavony Township, but it wins me games that would otherwise have not been winnable.
Nice list. Your thought process seems really on point. I think others have said before but it seems like tokens draws the wrong half of the deck a lot of the time. Our lack of an efficient way to dig for answers usually means a loss in a lot of games that could have otherwise gone the other way. I'm testing out legion's landing as a 2-of as well but not sure about cutting a land yet.
I have been lurking on this thread for a long time as I slowly build up what I hope is a solid BW Tokens list. I have had mixed results at my local modern events, but overall I am pretty happy with the list that I have. Budget, and concerns about expensive cards being playable in other decks has stopped me from getting cards like Bitterblossom, but overall I am pretty happy with my list.
Any feedback would be welcome. I have been going for a more aggressive build, since my meta features a bunch of combo decks like storm/adnaus and tron (mostly eldrazi and mono blue)I try to have as broad a sideboard as possible while still having "I win cards for matchups that I see commonly, and I try to aggressively side out dead spells.
I find that I am having trouble recently with combo matchups, and matchups that are like combo, like Lantern. I have the cards that I need to win in my deck, but consistently getting in hand, on time is a problem. Discard obviously helps a lot, but I find myself losing a lot of games to people top decking. Are there any obvious things I could be doing to make my combo match ups better?
Overall I think the deck is in a very strong place. The aggro/affinity/burn match ups seem very strong, especially after sideboarding. The G/B/x midrange matchup also seems strong, since they are much weaker to removal, and numerous chump blockers encourage them to overextend into my one sided board wipes. Death shadow matchups are harder than G/B/X because of stubborn denial, but I still generally feel favored. Valakut decks would almost definitely be borderline unwinnable, barring a turn 3 Lost Legacy, but I rarely see those decks.
The only non-standard cards I have in my list are 2 Legion's Landing, 2 Shefet Dunes and a Dusk // Dawn. All of these cards tend to be very good in a number of matchups. Legion's landing is trivially easy to flip, and I find that running two lets me cut a land without any issues. The tokens that it make are great for blocking, and get out of hand with anthems. Dusk // Dawn is only usable on the front side, but that front side is often a 1 sided boardwipe. It is most important against eldrazi decks (especially Reality Smasher), G/B/X, and Death's Shadow decks. Shefet Dunes is a land when you need one, and an anthem when you don't. It effectively costs 5 mana, which is an issue, and every time I use it I dream of it being a Gavony Township, but it wins me games that would otherwise have not been winnable.
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
i am willing to wager that everyone saying they do not like Shefet dunes HAS NOT USED IT.
Yes its 5 mana, its expensive. Just like Vault. In aggro versions of the deck, that extra damage being built into your lands so you can dedicate slots to more useful things is immeasurably good.
Comparing it to sorin and zealous is silly. Can sorin and zealous come down and produce mana? Do they form part of your manabase? This is like comparing Vault of the Archangel to Vampire Nighthawk.
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Now I am using 2 blessed alliances, since they also help in the Eldrazi MU (althought I am already playing 2 wraths for that sake... ).
Champion seems better positioned against Death Shadow variants, but these Mu's seems already quite favourable, so I am not sure there is a real argument there.
Also, WW is kind of tough on my Lilis.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
If you're a little more black and you're looking for a boardwipe, I'm actually testing a singleton copy of Bontu's last reckoning. Come one turn earlier than Wrath, which can save your life in some match-up (Elf, Zoo, Merfolk), however it really is just good against an overextending opponent because of that land stay tapped clause. It's pretty good against aggro so far, but Still testing it though...
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Has anyone tried changing the mana base to use 4 blood moon in sb?
If your meta has you needing to sideboard 4 blood moons (I'm guessing a ton of tron), then you can make this super easy modification to the tokens deck to completely turn the MU around. I've been enjoying a 80-20 MU against tron after this adjustment.
- 4 path
- 3 push
- 4 inquisition
- 2 duress
- 4 lingering souls
- 4 raise the alarm
- 3 legion's landing
- 2 spectral procession
- 4 intangible virtue
- 2 honor of the pure
- 3 sorin
- 1 start // finish
- 4 marsh flats
- 4 windswept heaths
- 2 godless shrine
- 4 concealed courtyard
- 1 fetid heath
- 4 plains
- 2 swamp
+ 4 baral
+ 3 electromancer
+ 4 desperate ritual
+ 4 pyretic ritual
+ 4 manamorphose
+ 4 serum visions
+ 4 sleight of hand
+ 3 opt
+ 3 remand
+ 2 grapeshot
+ 1 empty the warrens
+ 1 noxious revival
+ 4 gifts ungiven
+ 2 past in flames
+ 4 tarns
+ 2 flooded strand
+ 4 steam vents
+ 2 shivan reef
+ 4 island
+ 1 mountain
I've found that after this slight adjustment it was a lot easier to fit in the sideboard moons. The U splash introduced cantrips and tutors to help find your answers too, if you don't just kill them outright turn 3 or make the tokens kill with 12 goblins on turn 2 anyway.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Fixed that for you
If only I could fit the plan into the sideboard. Alas, it is slightly larger than the 15 card allowance.
In all seriousness though. I brew a lot, more than the average FNMer, and trust me when I say I've tried to modify this deck to fight tron. It doesn't work. We're dug into our premise as a solidly midrange deck. They're maining all the wipes, all of which require different hate/counters to dodge (ugin/o stone/dust/anger/ratchet bomb), and we don't have answers to a land based combo in our colors. Our best chance is to ghost quarter + surgical, and that's pretty horrible.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
WTH? I sure didn't expect a Baral storm joke ever being funny. I congratulate you on that accomplishment.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Result: I faced the three!
Bad Lucky in the pairings but luck in the games (of course I prepared the jund against Tokens within the possible).
I could have just said "play another deck if your meta is tron" but that's SO cliche.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
With that being said, I may sell one or two now that I know they're 25$ each. wtf mtg market... weren't those like not even 5$ not so long ago?
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
More zealous persecution?
The plan is side out removals, seize and iok. Side in utilitily cards?
They were less than $4.00 when Modern Masters 2015 dropped.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
for those of you following on my budget journey... I uh... Don't think I can really call my build budget anymore per se. Here's my latest update:
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Token Generation 14
4 Lingering Souls
3 Spectral Procession
3 Start // Finish
4 Bitterblossom
Hand Disruption 6
2 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Removal 7
4 Path of Exile
3 Fatal Push
Anthems 6
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Zealous Persecution
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Shambling Vent
3 Godless Shrine
1 Windswept Heath
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Extirpate
2 Nevermore
2 Sundering Growth
1 Disenchant
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Ghost Quarter
So I'm really happy with this build. Here are my thoughts going forward:
Man there is a huge difference between 2 Bitterblossom in the deck and 4 Bitterblossom. The card really does shift the build to the control direction, it's so weird how different it feels with what seems like such a minor change.
Because of this I really want to try 1-2 Liliana of the Veil in this deck. I would probably sub out 1 Sorin and 1 Start // Finish to fit in a couple. I think it would work well and I know some people already play her in the deck.
I definitely want to swap out my Caves of Koilos for Marsh Flats but obviously that is gonna happen slowly. I also want to swap out a Plains for a lone copy of Fetid Heath. I think it is especially important to have this if you're running the Lili's just because it really does give you that extra flexibility early game to pay BB or WW as needed.
I don't have a second Vault of the Archangel but I think I want one and I might take out a Shambling vent for it. Vault has helped a lot as another lifelink outlet. Definitely feeling the lifeloss from all the godless shrines and thoughtseizes etc. It adds up and having the lifelink option whether through Sorin or Archangel is important I feel. Also the deathtouch can stalemate boards and allow you to build up the pieces to win (usually through dmg overhead and vigilance for defense).
Also want to swap a Isolated Chapel for a 2nd fetch land, probably Windswept Heath or Flooded Strand or something like that.
I didn't like Legion's Landing for my build but I think it's a good choice for an aggro shell. Same for Secure the wastes. I think Start // Finish is amazing, the extra removal is actually incredible. The vigilance on the grounded tokens is also great for when you don't have virtue but still want to get off damage early or lifelink with sorin's +1 etc.
Have not tried Collective Brutality yet. I think that my Zealous Persecutions are in the CB's spot at the moment. I probably prefer the instant anthem to the extra discard/flex spell but it would be worth trying. I'll do it if I can get some easily but I'm not going out of my way to get them at this point.
Now it's a matter of maybe upgrading the sideboard and then learning how to board against certain decks.
Long live Orzhov Tokens.
4x Concealed Courtyard
1x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Godless Shrine
1x Isolated Chapel
2x Marsh Flats
3x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Windswept Heath
Planeswalker (4)
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
2x Thoughtseize
1x Timely Reinforcements
Instant (13)
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
3x Raise the Alarm
2x Start / Finish
1x Zealous Persecution
Enchantment (4)
4x Intangible Virtue
1x Blessed Alliance
1x Celestial Purge
1x Collective Brutality
3x Duress
2x Kor Firewalker
2x Rest in Peace
1x Selfless Spirit
2x Stony Silence
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Wrath of God
I'm bringing this to my first tournament tonight! Just wanted to get your opinions on a few things:
-2 GQ, +1 Shambling Vents, +1 Plains: I've been hesitant to go to 3 vents, but some people say its fine, and GQ has done nothing really for me. Not sure if I should leave one in, or take it out for the extra plains.
-1-2 ????, +1-2 Honor of the Pure: In a build that currently does not have bitterblossom, is 1-2 Honor of the Pure worth it? Torn on this.
Lost Legacy / Blessed Alliance / Disenchant / Sundering Growth: Am I gonna severely miss having some number of these in my sideboard? Took most of them
out because I wasn't sure how good they are vs. the meta, but I haven't played vs. too many tier 1 decks.
Lastly, any tips on my ratios of like Raise the Alarm vs. Start//Finish? Am I messing anything up with those or do the ratios look fine? Thanks!
I have been lurking on this thread for a long time as I slowly build up what I hope is a solid BW Tokens list. I have had mixed results at my local modern events, but overall I am pretty happy with the list that I have. Budget, and concerns about expensive cards being playable in other decks has stopped me from getting cards like Bitterblossom, but overall I am pretty happy with my list.
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Instants 11
4 Path to Exile
2 Fatal Push
4 Raise the Alarm
1 Anguished Unmaking
Soreceries 16
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
4 Lingering Souls
1 Start // Finish
4 Spectral Procession
1 Dusk // Dawn
4 Intangible Virtue
2 Legion's Landing
Lands 22
3 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
1 Godless Shrine
4 Concealed Courtyard
1 Swamp
3 Shambling Vent
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Caves of Koilos
2 Shefet Dunes
4 Plains
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Wrath of God
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Kambal, Consul of Compliance
2 Fragmentize
1 Stony Silence
1 Pithing Needle
2 Lost Legacy
1 Worship
1 Aven Mindcensor
Any feedback would be welcome. I have been going for a more aggressive build, since my meta features a bunch of combo decks like storm/adnaus and tron (mostly eldrazi and mono blue)I try to have as broad a sideboard as possible while still having "I win cards for matchups that I see commonly, and I try to aggressively side out dead spells.
I find that I am having trouble recently with combo matchups, and matchups that are like combo, like Lantern. I have the cards that I need to win in my deck, but consistently getting in hand, on time is a problem. Discard obviously helps a lot, but I find myself losing a lot of games to people top decking. Are there any obvious things I could be doing to make my combo match ups better?
Overall I think the deck is in a very strong place. The aggro/affinity/burn match ups seem very strong, especially after sideboarding. The G/B/x midrange matchup also seems strong, since they are much weaker to removal, and numerous chump blockers encourage them to overextend into my one sided board wipes. Death shadow matchups are harder than G/B/X because of stubborn denial, but I still generally feel favored. Valakut decks would almost definitely be borderline unwinnable, barring a turn 3 Lost Legacy, but I rarely see those decks.
The only non-standard cards I have in my list are 2 Legion's Landing, 2 Shefet Dunes and a Dusk // Dawn. All of these cards tend to be very good in a number of matchups. Legion's landing is trivially easy to flip, and I find that running two lets me cut a land without any issues. The tokens that it make are great for blocking, and get out of hand with anthems. Dusk // Dawn is only usable on the front side, but that front side is often a 1 sided boardwipe. It is most important against eldrazi decks (especially Reality Smasher), G/B/X, and Death's Shadow decks. Shefet Dunes is a land when you need one, and an anthem when you don't. It effectively costs 5 mana, which is an issue, and every time I use it I dream of it being a Gavony Township, but it wins me games that would otherwise have not been winnable.
Thanks for reading
If it's storm, you could use something like Runed Halo, or even Rule of Law.
Against lantern, Disenchant and Fragmentize are good, Stony Silence blocks a lot of their cards (But not Ensnaring Bridge!), and Rest in Peace blocks their Surgical Extraction and Academy Ruins.
I have probably missed some cards, but I hope this helps!
I really dislike shefet dunes. It costs 5 mana for a small benefit. sorin, lord of innistrad or zealous persecution are just better.
I would also cut 1-2 shambling vent. It slows us down in the early turns, and add at least one more godless shrine
pucatrade
big receipts
alpha mox emerald
beta time walk
4 goyfs received
3 liliana of the veil
4 karn liberated
3 force of will
4 grove of the burnwillows
snapcaster mage
3 horizon canopy
2 full art damnation
Yes its 5 mana, its expensive. Just like Vault. In aggro versions of the deck, that extra damage being built into your lands so you can dedicate slots to more useful things is immeasurably good.
Comparing it to sorin and zealous is silly. Can sorin and zealous come down and produce mana? Do they form part of your manabase? This is like comparing Vault of the Archangel to Vampire Nighthawk.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR