I have also advocated against Selfless Spirit. It is great, but playing smartly gets you to the same place, and our brain does not take SB slots... yet
I tried katati once and was interesting. I remember I won a game against 8-rack thanks to her/him/it (WTF?). Other than that, Stony Silence is just waaaay too powerful. Giving the opponent elections is never optimal, because they will choose what is worst for us. I dont see any point in favour of kataki compared to Stony (once we land some blockers, not even their creatures are able to do anything), then, why would you even bother? If it could fly... then I would see the debate. But seriously, stony silence is supreme.
I run one stony in the board. As a player on both sides of the aisle, here's at least my rationale:
As an affinity player, no card wrecks you as hard as kataki. The advantage tokens has is that you often know whether the affinity player has removal after turn 1 discard. So then why don't I run kataki? Due to every other artifact MU. Tokens is already heavily favored against affinity, so between the two "big" hosers, I feel like we should focus on one or the other. Between zealous persecution, sundering growth, board wipes, pithing needle, and all of our 1/1 fliers, we don't really need that much more to skew the MU in our favor, so IMO we only need 1 of either kataki or stony (this is unless of course your meta is HEAVY on artifact decks). Stony has the benefit of not only doing work against KCI and thopter decks, but being better against decks like ad naus. than a kataki would.
If cheeri0s ever becomes more played, I would consider changing the stony for kataki, but as of now I feel comfortable enough not playing both or just kataki.
Stony silence and Kataki, War's wage are both fantastic against affinity.
However, stony is way better against other artifacts, most notably Engineered explosives. In this situation most player will either crack the explosives in response to Kataki or simply pay the 1 mana to keep the explosives while Stony straight out shut that card down. I don't know about you but that card is among the most commonly sided card against me, AND is another reason I run Pithing needle.
If what you're looking for is affinity hate in particular, both works, but if you're looking for artifact hate beyond affinity, I will advocate for Stony silence for both the reason I've stated above AND the fact that it's immune to creature removal.
[quote from="Keldan_br »" url="http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/developing-competitive-modern/656590-bw-tokens?comment=3325" rel="nofollow">MisterMuffin21 »Hey guys, I´m wondering, how is the Titanshift matchup?simply bad. The big problem is we often don't have a mainboard answer to their Valakut, the molten pinnacle. Ghost quarter and to a lesser extent Fulminator mage are pretty much our only answers. Also, Leyline of sanctity can be good, but then the burn will only be redirected to our creature tokens and our army won't live for long. You could also use Contaminated ground if you want some hipster points.
Primeval Titan is also a pretty big baddy by itself and Trample is a problem. Removal and even extraction effect like Lost legacy or Surgical extraction is very helpful here. If you can answer both those cards, then you're pretty much good to go.
EDIT: Use Nightcreep in response to their Scapeshift for maximum hipster points
EDIT 2: How could I forget my pal Runed halo! Just be aware, they tend to run a lot of enchantment hate with them having access to green.
If I change my sideboard as show below I will sacrifice too much for this matchup? (changed a little bit too)
Do you think Zealous Persecution is still a good card maindeck( I don´t find place in sideboard) or a Anguished Unmaking or Collective Brutality better in that slot?
Matchups R1
2-1 vs Storm:
- On the draw, kept a reasonable hand, an early discard revealed he wasn't on Ad Nauseum this time (I've played him before). He lands a Baral where I decide on my turn to play out spectral instead of getting rid of. He comboes off by t4. Oops.
Take out 2 x Auriok Champion, Anguished Unmaking, Zealous Persecution and 2 x Gideon for RiP, Leyline, Rule of Law, and 2 x Surgical and Runed Halo.
- 2nd game I mull to 5, but land a opening leyline and RiP by turn 2. It took me about 8-10 turns to draw a threat (spectral) but I do draw some removal for his various barals/electromancer. I eventually beat him to death
- Game 3 I keep a hand without discard, but a RiP by turn 2 again. I eventually land some guys, virtue and Sorin and end up at 35 life or so. He manages to storm off with 14 goblins and Sorin but not enough before I clock him
R2
2-1 vs Jund:
- Opponent was a regular who recently got into the deck a few months ago, was previously an ad naseum player. Game gets rather grindy I believe with most of his stuff cleared but a raging ravine and 4 fliers on my side (bitterblossom got decayed I believe). There was a Kologhan's Command forcing me to discard the path I hand, was tempted to use it on a faerie (didn't have any targets on his side from memory, real threat was the raging ravine). Luckily I didn't as I topdeck a Gideon after double checking he was on 5, emblem it and swing for 6
Out / In: 3 x Iok, 2 x TS, 1 x ZP for 2 x RiP, Runed Halo, Fatal Push, Leyline of Sanctity and a Disenchant I believe (Night of Souls hedge)
- Game 2: I manage to keep a removal heavy hand, pushing a Bob and pathing a finks. However there ends up being a tireless tracker I couldn't answer apart from a Runed Halo I was saving for a goyf. Eventually I land it before it gets abrupt decayed
I side out Runed Halo and disenchant (I believe) back for 2 x TS.
- Game 3: Thoughtseize has me see 2 scooze's, bolt, abrupt decay, and some land. I nab the decay. His topdeck thoughtseize nabs my bitterblossom. I collective brutality binning a souls to discard his bolt and life. He lands the scooze, but not before I flashback my souls and getting beats in. I manage to keep him off any creatures to eat in both our bins, keeping his scoozes as 2/2s while my fliers beat overhead with intangible virtue. A brimaz secures the ground for me which he manages to get rid of, but not before adding some cat soldiers to the mix. I eventually take the game
R3
2-0 vs BW Eldrazi:
- He seems to get a coloured screwed start, just have mutavaults and a plains for most of the game while I beat him up with tokens. His first few turns involved playing and cracking relics, and eventually he activates a mutavault to path it to fix his colours. But not enough before I clock him.
Out / In: 2 x Auriok Champions for Fatal Push and Runed Halo
- Game 2 I manage to fire off early discard seeing strangler, fulminator mage, relic, wasteland strangler and relic. I believe I pick off the tidehollow to land an uninterrupted bitterblossom. Hard to remember what else happened in the game but I manage to get a pretty fast clock. Thanks to intangible virtue.
R4
0-2 vs GR Tron:
- I've played this guy before, so we basically know what each other is on. Unfortunately it's a pair down for me, since he was a 2-1 record compared to my 3-0 while on Table 3. The first game wasn't too remarkable, Tron doing Tron things. He eventually lands a Ugin which I keep playing afterwards for an Anguished Unmaking. I manage to remove most of his things with paths but I concede once I find my remaining paths exiled form Ulamog swings.
Out / In: 2 x Auriok Champion, 2 x Fatal Push, 1 x Zealous Persecution for 2 x Stony Silence, 2 x Surgical and Disenchant.
- Game 2 I manage an early TS, seeing 2 x mine, Plant, Grove, Wurm, Nature's Claim and tower (I think). I take a nature's claim before landing stony silence. I path his wurmcoil when he attacks, while there was an o-stone on board. I land a 2nd stony silence after sitting on it for a few turns, but then his Ulamog nuked both my silences. I eventually get beaten to death.
R5
2-0 vs Abzan Vizier:
- This opponent was another store regular, funnily enough I bashed a few games with him a few days prior for preparation for the event since he believed he wouldn't be playing anyway. Heh. Anyway, the first game I maange some early discard, seeing chord, spike feeder, bird and renegade. I take his chord. Regular advice against company / chord decks I've been given (whether Abzan or Elves) was to take their toolbox elements when you can. I start pecking him with Faeries and Lingering Souls tokens. I manage to keep his combo pieces clear before killing him.
Out / In: 2 x Auriok Champion, 2 x Gideon for 2 x Rip, 1 x Fatal Push, 1 x Zealous Persecution. (I believe I may have put in 1-2 surgicals, but cant remember what I swapped out).
- Game 2 he mulls to 6 I believe, landing an early viscera seer and vizier. I manage to Zealous Persecution after accepting some damage from them end of his turn to wipe them. A CoCo about turn 5-6 lands him 2 tidehollow scullers to take a path and lingering souls. Brimaz bashes in while I have a virtue out, which he double blocks with a sculler holding the Path and Finks. I decide to assign the damage tidehollow sculler, and keeping back a surgical in hand (which I think he saw with the scullers). I end up clocking him with the rest of the tokens I had.
Alright, standings shown before the last round, I'm on 7th seed at 12 points, 8th seed also on 12 points, and everyone else below on 9 points or lower. An ID from everyone would be a lock.
Anyway, I get paired up with the player on 8th seed, and he decides reluctantly bash (I was happy to ID).
Not knowing what he was on, I keep a hand with a tapland, some other land, collective brutality, auriok champ and a threat I believe. His turn 1 ends up being a Urza's Mine. Oh boy
R6
0-2 vs GR Tron:
- So once he lands that mine, I end up casting collective brutality discard the Auriok to drain him and duress him. Unfortunately he had no instants or sorceries in hand, but I see wurmcoil, Ugin, power plant, tower, star, relic and something else I couldn't remember. Anyway the game ends up over pretty fast.
Out / In: 2 x Auriok Champion, 2 x Fatal Push, 1 x Zealous Persecution for 2 x Stony Silence, 2 x Surgical and Disenchant, basically the same as R4.
- Early discard has me see a star, sphee, map, mine, groove and stirrings. I take the map before I surgical it. I felt I did that a bit fast as I drew a ghost quarter next turn, unfortunately it was a hand that didn't really have any threats from memory.We both end up bricking on threats, so I eventually get in some beats with shambling vent. I believe I manage a lingering souls before an O-Stone came in, so I hold off on the flashback while I swing in with eventually two shambling vents and 2 spirits. Soon he is down to 6 before a wurmcoil gets landed. Eventually he manages to crack O-Stone with a fate counter on wurmcoil while I end up getting beaten to death. Don't think I saw a path in that entire game.
Anyway, final standings get released. By round 6 my R5 opponent got paired with my R4 opponent and managed to win that match to land a spot in Top 8. He eventually ends up losing to an eternal command deck in the quarter-finals. The top 8 from what I remember ended up being 2 x Grixis Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Eternal Command, Fish, Affinity, Dredge and GR tron. My R6 GR Tron opponent managed to win the whole thing, beating GDS in the semis and Fish in the finals.
Somewhat bummered, but had a decent run I feel.
Got a few PPTQs over the weekend, but I want to see if I can get some SB advice, perhaps something a bit more against Tron like Lost Legacy or Pithing Needle. Tempted on dropping the Zealous Persecution and Surgical Extraction in the side. To be honest the surgicals against tron don't seem that great without more ghost quarters or fulminator mage, more like a fringe possibility.
You're not going to beat Gx Tron unless they fall apart or something, that's just a fact of life playing Tokens. I'd definitely say swap your numbers on Iok/Seize, you're gonna want Seize more currently in any meta. The rest of the deck I've got a bunch of issues with but that's more personal choices (I don't like any creatures other than Auriok ever for example).
What sort of things would I want to hit with more seizes? It definitely does take more things in a tron hand.
Delve creatures, Wraths, Scapeshift, PrimeTime, all the major Eldrazi, Ugin, Karn, Stormbreath, Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Leylines, Batterskull, etc.
Do you think Zealous Persecution is still a good card maindeck( I don´t find place in sideboard) or a Anguished Unmaking or Collective Brutality better in that slot?
I haven't run ZP at all in months, it's just not good currently, I don't run AU either. Sideboard you're better off running Flaying Tendrils or something similar.
Khanagate -- I agree with Dhamlin on all counts. There are a few things I would like to add.
I think that the minimum number of Turn 1 disruption spells in BW Tokens right now should be six. Additionally, I don't think it makes sense to run any fewer than four Intangible Virtue. That card is so strong in our decks; much more than Brimaz in my opinion, who, incidentally, I think you should swap out for 1x Virtue and 1x Thoughtseize. I suspect you will find your deck performing noticeably better overall with that swap.
The number of token producers you are running is already a little low, and with Brimaz gone I think you should definitely add one more. I would recommend swapping Zealous for a third Spectral Procession or one Start / Finish. The former is such a strong tempo play for our deck, but if its mana requirement is giving you trouble, Start / Finish is actually a pretty good card in practice.
Your land base is not bad, but there are two small issues I have with it:
1) You are running three Taplands. In my opinion, that results in too much potential for tempo loss for a deck that likes to play on curve. Most people on this forum have found that Windbrisk Heights doesn't perform as well in practice as one would expect in theory and consequently have ditched the card in favor of Vent of another utility land. In my experience, Vent has the same theory vs practice problem, but at least it's a dual land.
2) You are running five lands that produce only W and three that only produce 1. That is too much potential for drawing a hand that lacks the ability to produce B, which is crucial in early game. Consequently, you are going to have to mulligan more frequently. I would drop either one Plains or your Flagstones of Trokair in favor of another Wx Fetch or a fourth Concealed Courtyard.
Windswept Heath is the least expensive Wx Fetch at the moment. If you wanted, you could sell your Flagstones and Mesas for a full playset of Heaths, a third Thoughtseize, a foil Intangible Virtue, and money to spare. I like the synergy between Flagstones and Ghost Quarter, but you're not always going to get the two in tandem. If you want to keep Flagstones, then I would drop a Plains..
The last things I would recommend for the deck is a third Fatal Push. That card is pretty amazing in the current meta.
Overall, I'm a fan of your build. It is better than most builds from first time posters. With a little additional refinement in some areas, it has the potential to be VERY strong.
Hi guys, thanks for the responses. I've anticipated some of the mainboard advice already, so just a few things I would like to explain or address.
Dropping off the 6th 1 drop discard spell and 4th intangible virtue was pretty recent. I've been running 3/3 split and a playset of virtues for about 2-3 years now. I always had collective brutality in the side, but I've found at least one mainboard helped me speed up the deck if I was stuck on two land for a bit (usually a brutality into souls, then start beating with souls while waiting for land drops). For the PPTQ I was going against conventional wisdom and trying to improve my flexibility / topdecks with two brutalities main. I was tempted to ditch a one of the 2 mana token makers (e.g. bitterblossom) but I cut a 4th virtue instead. On occasion I would find myself with 2-3 virtues out but a lack of token makers, or siding out the 4th virtue for a control / lock piece except for midrange or aggressive matchups anyway.
Although this is a synergestic deck, I've always found Brimaz to be a big ass on his own instead of pure chump material. There are a number of decks that if they can't remove him are reluctant to run into him, as well as being resilient to damage sweepers. He's been pretty staple for me over the past few years, and found him more versatile than the 3rd and 4th Spectral Processions.
In regards to taplands, I've kept just two vents for long time and recently trying out the windbrisk heights as the 3rd tapland. For a good card advantage deck, tokens basically has zero dig so I thought this would be worth trying out again.
I used to run a red splash with about 7-8 fetches, but I've started going straight BW for the current modern season. I saw 2-3 shocklands max with 6-8 fetches in a few builds. I don't mind running more fetches, but I think nagging concern is running more fetches than actual fetchables. I've also run 4 basics as a staple (3 plains, and 1 swamp) but I'm guessing not as needed much thanks to courtyard?
I would love to try out start // finish, but souls is unmovable, Brimaz I'm likely keeping based on prior reasons and experience, and am loathe to cut more spectrals to be honest.
Record wise I've ended up 5-4 at GP Melb last year (Eldrazi winter, ugh) and 8-7 at GP Bris earlier this year (7-2 day 1, 1 win and tanked the rest of day 2) so I'm not a stranger to the deck, but there aren't that many tokens players where I live to talk about the deck in detail.
I would like to fit maybe 1-2 lost legacy and / or pithing needle in the SB somewhere.
. . .
In regards to taplands, I've kept just two vents for long time and recently trying out the windbrisk heights as the 3rd tapland. For a good card advantage deck, tokens basically has zero dig so I thought this would be worth trying out again.
I used to run a red splash with about 7-8 fetches, but I've started going straight BW for the current modern season. I saw 2-3 shocklands max with 6-8 fetches in a few builds. I don't mind running more fetches, but I think nagging concern is running more fetches than actual fetchables. I've also run 4 basics as a staple (3 plains, and 1 swamp) but I'm guessing not as needed much thanks to courtyard?
. . .
I would like to fit maybe 1-2 lost legacy and / or pithing needle in the SB somewhere.
Personally, I grew to loathe and despise Windbrisk Heights, not just because it almost never worked, but it actively hosed me by making me put cards I needed on the bottom of the deck. I don't think I would play a copy again on a bet.
Two Shocklands is all that is needed, but three isn't heresy in my mind. Six fetches is probably the minimum one should run. Fatal Push makes an argument for more fetches. Eight is reasonable but the more copies of Push, the more fetches. Nine is certainly not out of line. In the old days some folks ran a copy of Murderous Cut which was a very good reason to go fetch-heavy.
I am a big fan of Lost Legacy. Pithing Needle is a card I would like to work in but I haven't gotten around to trying it. It certainly has applications and it shouldn't ever be dead.
Okay, what's the guideline for lands here? Not Which ones to run, but how many? I know it seems like a detail, but I keep toggling between 23-24 lands and neither really feels quite "perfect". It infuriates me to no end
Okay, what's the guideline for lands here? Not Which ones to run, but how many? I know it seems like a detail, but I keep toggling between 23-24 lands and neither really feels quite "perfect". It infuriates me to no end
It probably comes down to how many four-CMC or four-plus-CMC cards one runs. It also has to do with the number of colorless or ETB-tapped lands one runs.
Generally, a two-color deck with a low curve should run on fewer lands than BW tokens seems to need, but we rely heavily on three-drops and Spectral Procession in particular is a needy card.
To get by with 23, one would need to run few (three maybe?) four-drops and probably three colorless or ETB-tapped lands combined.
Okay, what's the guideline for lands here? Not Which ones to run, but how many? I know it seems like a detail, but I keep toggling between 23-24 lands and neither really feels quite "perfect". It infuriates me to no end
I've been going with 23 lands for over a year and would never go to 24. Even when I briefly ran 5 4cmc Planeswalkers (3 Sorin, 2 Gideon) I stayed at 23. At least once every FNM I'll lose a game to mana flooding or mana screw. Even at 23 lands, 9 times out of 10 it's due to flooding. Maybe I'm unlucky, but last FNM I lost a game to Jeskai control because I drew into 17 of my lands. That game went on forever. Later on I lost to a BW humans deck for the same reason. He was in top deck mode at 2 life and even said to me "I need lingering souls or I lose", and then he topdecked 2 lingering souls in a row while I proceeded to draw only lands over the next 4 or 5 turns. In moments of salty rage I've even contemplated dropping to 22.
Okay, what's the guideline for lands here? Not Which ones to run, but how many? I know it seems like a detail, but I keep toggling between 23-24 lands and neither really feels quite "perfect". It infuriates me to no end
23.5 LOL!
I run 24 with only 3 4cmc cards other than Spectral in the entire 75. However, I also run a lot of utility land, 3 GQ, 2 Vent, 1 Vault so my extra land count isn't just dead cards. I've tried 23 and never been happy with it.
It probably comes down to how many four-CMC or four-plus-CMC cards one runs. It also has to do with the number of colorless or ETB-tapped lands one runs.
Generally, a two-color deck with a low curve should run on fewer lands than BW tokens seems to need, but we rely heavily on three-drops and Spectral Procession in particular is a needy card.
To get by with 23, one would need to run few (three maybe?) four-drops and probably three colorless or ETB-tapped lands combined.
That's pretty close to my reasoning too. That would mean I'd have to go to 24 lands If I hope to run Ghost quarter without cutting my other ETBT and colorless lands.
I've been going with 23 lands for over a year and would never go to 24. Even when I briefly ran 5 4cmc Planeswalkers (3 Sorin, 2 Gideon) I stayed at 23. At least once every FNM I'll lose a game to mana flooding or mana screw. Even at 23 lands, 9 times out of 10 it's due to flooding. Maybe I'm unlucky, but last FNM I lost a game to Jeskai control because I drew into 17 of my lands. That game went on forever. Later on I lost to a BW humans deck for the same reason. He was in top deck mode at 2 life and even said to me "I need lingering souls or I lose", and then he topdecked 2 lingering souls in a row while I proceeded to draw only lands over the next 4 or 5 turns. In moments of salty rage I've even contemplated dropping to 22.
I know that feeling all too well. However being Mana-flood, mana-screw and/or mana-short happens less often than we think it does, it's just that we tend to remember when our deck screw us over more than when it boringly goes well and on curve. It's called "negativity bias" I think, and is probably what makes creating a deck so hard.
I run 24 with only 3 4cmc cards other than Spectral in the entire 75. However, I also run a lot of utility land, 3 GQ, 2 Vent, 1 Vault so my extra land count isn't just dead cards. I've tried 23 and never been happy with it.
In all seriousness, Ghost quarter is a pretty good reason to be running 24 lands. I'm not sure I want to give up my only copy of Vault of the Archangel just to stay at 23. Plus I'm already running three Shambling vent...
I dont usually run into any issues with my manabase, honestly. In my signature, you can find my current land list, but I am aiming for the following configureation:
24 lands is the best place to be IMO. 7 fetches + 2 shocks feels better than the 6 + 3 structure that I use right now, but not having the marsh flats yet makes me run 3 shocks. I love the 3 GQ and, while I could see myself going down to 2, I dont see a good reason to do that.
I tried katati once and was interesting. I remember I won a game against 8-rack thanks to her/him/it (WTF?). Other than that, Stony Silence is just waaaay too powerful. Giving the opponent elections is never optimal, because they will choose what is worst for us. I dont see any point in favour of kataki compared to Stony (once we land some blockers, not even their creatures are able to do anything), then, why would you even bother? If it could fly... then I would see the debate. But seriously, stony silence is supreme.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
As an affinity player, no card wrecks you as hard as kataki. The advantage tokens has is that you often know whether the affinity player has removal after turn 1 discard. So then why don't I run kataki? Due to every other artifact MU. Tokens is already heavily favored against affinity, so between the two "big" hosers, I feel like we should focus on one or the other. Between zealous persecution, sundering growth, board wipes, pithing needle, and all of our 1/1 fliers, we don't really need that much more to skew the MU in our favor, so IMO we only need 1 of either kataki or stony (this is unless of course your meta is HEAVY on artifact decks). Stony has the benefit of not only doing work against KCI and thopter decks, but being better against decks like ad naus. than a kataki would.
If cheeri0s ever becomes more played, I would consider changing the stony for kataki, but as of now I feel comfortable enough not playing both or just kataki.
Affinity
Death & Taxes
Mardu Nahiri
Forcing people to merge with twitch is stupid
Stony silence and Kataki, War's wage are both fantastic against affinity.
However, stony is way better against other artifacts, most notably Engineered explosives. In this situation most player will either crack the explosives in response to Kataki or simply pay the 1 mana to keep the explosives while Stony straight out shut that card down. I don't know about you but that card is among the most commonly sided card against me, AND is another reason I run Pithing needle.
If what you're looking for is affinity hate in particular, both works, but if you're looking for artifact hate beyond affinity, I will advocate for Stony silence for both the reason I've stated above AND the fact that it's immune to creature removal.
Mild tiny little thing I hate to point out: Both card does (almost) nothing against Ensnaring bridge or Chalice of the void.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
I came 10th with a 4-2 record last Saturday, being basically locked for top 8 before R6 opponent wanted to bash.
Deck:
2 Arid Mesa
3 Concealed Courtyard
1 Fetid Heath
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Windbrisk Heights
Removal / Discard:
2 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
1 Anguished Unmaking
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
2 Auriok Champion
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
Token Makers:
1 Gather the Townsfolk
3 Bitterblossom
4 Lingering Souls
2 Spectral Procession
Anthems:
3 Intangible Virtue
1 Zealous Persecution
Planeswalkers:
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Fatal Push
1 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Rest in Peace
1 Rule of Law
1 Runed Halo
2 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wrath of God
1 Zealous Persecution
Matchups
R1
2-1 vs Storm:
- On the draw, kept a reasonable hand, an early discard revealed he wasn't on Ad Nauseum this time (I've played him before). He lands a Baral where I decide on my turn to play out spectral instead of getting rid of. He comboes off by t4. Oops.
Take out 2 x Auriok Champion, Anguished Unmaking, Zealous Persecution and 2 x Gideon for RiP, Leyline, Rule of Law, and 2 x Surgical and Runed Halo.
- 2nd game I mull to 5, but land a opening leyline and RiP by turn 2. It took me about 8-10 turns to draw a threat (spectral) but I do draw some removal for his various barals/electromancer. I eventually beat him to death
- Game 3 I keep a hand without discard, but a RiP by turn 2 again. I eventually land some guys, virtue and Sorin and end up at 35 life or so. He manages to storm off with 14 goblins and Sorin but not enough before I clock him
R2
2-1 vs Jund:
- Opponent was a regular who recently got into the deck a few months ago, was previously an ad naseum player. Game gets rather grindy I believe with most of his stuff cleared but a raging ravine and 4 fliers on my side (bitterblossom got decayed I believe). There was a Kologhan's Command forcing me to discard the path I hand, was tempted to use it on a faerie (didn't have any targets on his side from memory, real threat was the raging ravine). Luckily I didn't as I topdeck a Gideon after double checking he was on 5, emblem it and swing for 6
Out / In: 3 x Iok, 2 x TS, 1 x ZP for 2 x RiP, Runed Halo, Fatal Push, Leyline of Sanctity and a Disenchant I believe (Night of Souls hedge)
- Game 2: I manage to keep a removal heavy hand, pushing a Bob and pathing a finks. However there ends up being a tireless tracker I couldn't answer apart from a Runed Halo I was saving for a goyf. Eventually I land it before it gets abrupt decayed
I side out Runed Halo and disenchant (I believe) back for 2 x TS.
- Game 3: Thoughtseize has me see 2 scooze's, bolt, abrupt decay, and some land. I nab the decay. His topdeck thoughtseize nabs my bitterblossom. I collective brutality binning a souls to discard his bolt and life. He lands the scooze, but not before I flashback my souls and getting beats in. I manage to keep him off any creatures to eat in both our bins, keeping his scoozes as 2/2s while my fliers beat overhead with intangible virtue. A brimaz secures the ground for me which he manages to get rid of, but not before adding some cat soldiers to the mix. I eventually take the game
R3
2-0 vs BW Eldrazi:
- He seems to get a coloured screwed start, just have mutavaults and a plains for most of the game while I beat him up with tokens. His first few turns involved playing and cracking relics, and eventually he activates a mutavault to path it to fix his colours. But not enough before I clock him.
Out / In: 2 x Auriok Champions for Fatal Push and Runed Halo
- Game 2 I manage to fire off early discard seeing strangler, fulminator mage, relic, wasteland strangler and relic. I believe I pick off the tidehollow to land an uninterrupted bitterblossom. Hard to remember what else happened in the game but I manage to get a pretty fast clock. Thanks to intangible virtue.
R4
0-2 vs GR Tron:
- I've played this guy before, so we basically know what each other is on. Unfortunately it's a pair down for me, since he was a 2-1 record compared to my 3-0 while on Table 3. The first game wasn't too remarkable, Tron doing Tron things. He eventually lands a Ugin which I keep playing afterwards for an Anguished Unmaking. I manage to remove most of his things with paths but I concede once I find my remaining paths exiled form Ulamog swings.
Out / In: 2 x Auriok Champion, 2 x Fatal Push, 1 x Zealous Persecution for 2 x Stony Silence, 2 x Surgical and Disenchant.
- Game 2 I manage an early TS, seeing 2 x mine, Plant, Grove, Wurm, Nature's Claim and tower (I think). I take a nature's claim before landing stony silence. I path his wurmcoil when he attacks, while there was an o-stone on board. I land a 2nd stony silence after sitting on it for a few turns, but then his Ulamog nuked both my silences. I eventually get beaten to death.
R5
2-0 vs Abzan Vizier:
- This opponent was another store regular, funnily enough I bashed a few games with him a few days prior for preparation for the event since he believed he wouldn't be playing anyway. Heh. Anyway, the first game I maange some early discard, seeing chord, spike feeder, bird and renegade. I take his chord. Regular advice against company / chord decks I've been given (whether Abzan or Elves) was to take their toolbox elements when you can. I start pecking him with Faeries and Lingering Souls tokens. I manage to keep his combo pieces clear before killing him.
Out / In: 2 x Auriok Champion, 2 x Gideon for 2 x Rip, 1 x Fatal Push, 1 x Zealous Persecution. (I believe I may have put in 1-2 surgicals, but cant remember what I swapped out).
- Game 2 he mulls to 6 I believe, landing an early viscera seer and vizier. I manage to Zealous Persecution after accepting some damage from them end of his turn to wipe them. A CoCo about turn 5-6 lands him 2 tidehollow scullers to take a path and lingering souls. Brimaz bashes in while I have a virtue out, which he double blocks with a sculler holding the Path and Finks. I decide to assign the damage tidehollow sculler, and keeping back a surgical in hand (which I think he saw with the scullers). I end up clocking him with the rest of the tokens I had.
Alright, standings shown before the last round, I'm on 7th seed at 12 points, 8th seed also on 12 points, and everyone else below on 9 points or lower. An ID from everyone would be a lock.
Anyway, I get paired up with the player on 8th seed, and he decides reluctantly bash (I was happy to ID).
Not knowing what he was on, I keep a hand with a tapland, some other land, collective brutality, auriok champ and a threat I believe. His turn 1 ends up being a Urza's Mine. Oh boy
R6
0-2 vs GR Tron:
- So once he lands that mine, I end up casting collective brutality discard the Auriok to drain him and duress him. Unfortunately he had no instants or sorceries in hand, but I see wurmcoil, Ugin, power plant, tower, star, relic and something else I couldn't remember. Anyway the game ends up over pretty fast.
Out / In: 2 x Auriok Champion, 2 x Fatal Push, 1 x Zealous Persecution for 2 x Stony Silence, 2 x Surgical and Disenchant, basically the same as R4.
- Early discard has me see a star, sphee, map, mine, groove and stirrings. I take the map before I surgical it. I felt I did that a bit fast as I drew a ghost quarter next turn, unfortunately it was a hand that didn't really have any threats from memory.We both end up bricking on threats, so I eventually get in some beats with shambling vent. I believe I manage a lingering souls before an O-Stone came in, so I hold off on the flashback while I swing in with eventually two shambling vents and 2 spirits. Soon he is down to 6 before a wurmcoil gets landed. Eventually he manages to crack O-Stone with a fate counter on wurmcoil while I end up getting beaten to death. Don't think I saw a path in that entire game.
Anyway, final standings get released. By round 6 my R5 opponent got paired with my R4 opponent and managed to win that match to land a spot in Top 8. He eventually ends up losing to an eternal command deck in the quarter-finals. The top 8 from what I remember ended up being 2 x Grixis Death's Shadow, Abzan Company, Eternal Command, Fish, Affinity, Dredge and GR tron. My R6 GR Tron opponent managed to win the whole thing, beating GDS in the semis and Fish in the finals.
Somewhat bummered, but had a decent run I feel.
Got a few PPTQs over the weekend, but I want to see if I can get some SB advice, perhaps something a bit more against Tron like Lost Legacy or Pithing Needle. Tempted on dropping the Zealous Persecution and Surgical Extraction in the side. To be honest the surgicals against tron don't seem that great without more ghost quarters or fulminator mage, more like a fringe possibility.
Delve creatures, Wraths, Scapeshift, PrimeTime, all the major Eldrazi, Ugin, Karn, Stormbreath, Gifts Ungiven, Past in Flames, Leylines, Batterskull, etc.
I haven't run ZP at all in months, it's just not good currently, I don't run AU either. Sideboard you're better off running Flaying Tendrils or something similar.
I think that the minimum number of Turn 1 disruption spells in BW Tokens right now should be six. Additionally, I don't think it makes sense to run any fewer than four Intangible Virtue. That card is so strong in our decks; much more than Brimaz in my opinion, who, incidentally, I think you should swap out for 1x Virtue and 1x Thoughtseize. I suspect you will find your deck performing noticeably better overall with that swap.
The number of token producers you are running is already a little low, and with Brimaz gone I think you should definitely add one more. I would recommend swapping Zealous for a third Spectral Procession or one Start / Finish. The former is such a strong tempo play for our deck, but if its mana requirement is giving you trouble, Start / Finish is actually a pretty good card in practice.
Your land base is not bad, but there are two small issues I have with it:
1) You are running three Taplands. In my opinion, that results in too much potential for tempo loss for a deck that likes to play on curve. Most people on this forum have found that Windbrisk Heights doesn't perform as well in practice as one would expect in theory and consequently have ditched the card in favor of Vent of another utility land. In my experience, Vent has the same theory vs practice problem, but at least it's a dual land.
2) You are running five lands that produce only W and three that only produce 1. That is too much potential for drawing a hand that lacks the ability to produce B, which is crucial in early game. Consequently, you are going to have to mulligan more frequently. I would drop either one Plains or your Flagstones of Trokair in favor of another Wx Fetch or a fourth Concealed Courtyard.
Windswept Heath is the least expensive Wx Fetch at the moment. If you wanted, you could sell your Flagstones and Mesas for a full playset of Heaths, a third Thoughtseize, a foil Intangible Virtue, and money to spare. I like the synergy between Flagstones and Ghost Quarter, but you're not always going to get the two in tandem. If you want to keep Flagstones, then I would drop a Plains..
The last things I would recommend for the deck is a third Fatal Push. That card is pretty amazing in the current meta.
Overall, I'm a fan of your build. It is better than most builds from first time posters. With a little additional refinement in some areas, it has the potential to be VERY strong.
Welcome to the forum!
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Dropping off the 6th 1 drop discard spell and 4th intangible virtue was pretty recent. I've been running 3/3 split and a playset of virtues for about 2-3 years now. I always had collective brutality in the side, but I've found at least one mainboard helped me speed up the deck if I was stuck on two land for a bit (usually a brutality into souls, then start beating with souls while waiting for land drops). For the PPTQ I was going against conventional wisdom and trying to improve my flexibility / topdecks with two brutalities main. I was tempted to ditch a one of the 2 mana token makers (e.g. bitterblossom) but I cut a 4th virtue instead. On occasion I would find myself with 2-3 virtues out but a lack of token makers, or siding out the 4th virtue for a control / lock piece except for midrange or aggressive matchups anyway.
Although this is a synergestic deck, I've always found Brimaz to be a big ass on his own instead of pure chump material. There are a number of decks that if they can't remove him are reluctant to run into him, as well as being resilient to damage sweepers. He's been pretty staple for me over the past few years, and found him more versatile than the 3rd and 4th Spectral Processions.
In regards to taplands, I've kept just two vents for long time and recently trying out the windbrisk heights as the 3rd tapland. For a good card advantage deck, tokens basically has zero dig so I thought this would be worth trying out again.
I used to run a red splash with about 7-8 fetches, but I've started going straight BW for the current modern season. I saw 2-3 shocklands max with 6-8 fetches in a few builds. I don't mind running more fetches, but I think nagging concern is running more fetches than actual fetchables. I've also run 4 basics as a staple (3 plains, and 1 swamp) but I'm guessing not as needed much thanks to courtyard?
I would love to try out start // finish, but souls is unmovable, Brimaz I'm likely keeping based on prior reasons and experience, and am loathe to cut more spectrals to be honest.
Record wise I've ended up 5-4 at GP Melb last year (Eldrazi winter, ugh) and 8-7 at GP Bris earlier this year (7-2 day 1, 1 win and tanked the rest of day 2) so I'm not a stranger to the deck, but there aren't that many tokens players where I live to talk about the deck in detail.
I would like to fit maybe 1-2 lost legacy and / or pithing needle in the SB somewhere.
Personally, I grew to loathe and despise Windbrisk Heights, not just because it almost never worked, but it actively hosed me by making me put cards I needed on the bottom of the deck. I don't think I would play a copy again on a bet.
Two Shocklands is all that is needed, but three isn't heresy in my mind. Six fetches is probably the minimum one should run. Fatal Push makes an argument for more fetches. Eight is reasonable but the more copies of Push, the more fetches. Nine is certainly not out of line. In the old days some folks ran a copy of Murderous Cut which was a very good reason to go fetch-heavy.
I am a big fan of Lost Legacy. Pithing Needle is a card I would like to work in but I haven't gotten around to trying it. It certainly has applications and it shouldn't ever be dead.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
It probably comes down to how many four-CMC or four-plus-CMC cards one runs. It also has to do with the number of colorless or ETB-tapped lands one runs.
Generally, a two-color deck with a low curve should run on fewer lands than BW tokens seems to need, but we rely heavily on three-drops and Spectral Procession in particular is a needy card.
To get by with 23, one would need to run few (three maybe?) four-drops and probably three colorless or ETB-tapped lands combined.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I've been going with 23 lands for over a year and would never go to 24. Even when I briefly ran 5 4cmc Planeswalkers (3 Sorin, 2 Gideon) I stayed at 23. At least once every FNM I'll lose a game to mana flooding or mana screw. Even at 23 lands, 9 times out of 10 it's due to flooding. Maybe I'm unlucky, but last FNM I lost a game to Jeskai control because I drew into 17 of my lands. That game went on forever. Later on I lost to a BW humans deck for the same reason. He was in top deck mode at 2 life and even said to me "I need lingering souls or I lose", and then he topdecked 2 lingering souls in a row while I proceeded to draw only lands over the next 4 or 5 turns. In moments of salty rage I've even contemplated dropping to 22.
23.5 LOL!
I run 24 with only 3 4cmc cards other than Spectral in the entire 75. However, I also run a lot of utility land, 3 GQ, 2 Vent, 1 Vault so my extra land count isn't just dead cards. I've tried 23 and never been happy with it.
If I could, I would
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
24 lands is the best place to be IMO. 7 fetches + 2 shocks feels better than the 6 + 3 structure that I use right now, but not having the marsh flats yet makes me run 3 shocks. I love the 3 GQ and, while I could see myself going down to 2, I dont see a good reason to do that.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic