The thing you have to realize about life gain versus a deck like burn is that it doesn't do anything if they can still out clock it. Timely gives you 6 life, which is essentially two cards in a burn deck. In the late burn game plan, that is two draws or two turns. If you can't close out the game in those two turns, then you didn't buy anything. That is why cards like Sorin, Auriok Champion, and Vault of the Archangel are so good in tokens versus burn and other decks: they are sources of incremental and long term life gain.
yeah, but the key point is that it buys us 2 turns JUST when we need it, i.e., turns 3-4. This way we can play Sorin and still have three guys on the ground to keep gaining life with. When I lose, it is usually turn 3-4, so I have to disagree with vault here because turn 5 against burn is waaay too optimistic.
I agree that Timely buys time during the crucial turns in which we generally make a move to control the board state by resolving Sorin etc. And the creatures (which in practice very rarely fail to be created unless you happened to topdeck the card in late game) are still very relevant in the Burn matchup despite their lack of flying due to synergy with cards like Sorin and use as blockers.
I have actually had some games against Burn in which Vault was relevant but they have been fairly uncommon. My alternate build runs Shambling Vents instead, which seems a little better in practice but still not great. The turn it becomes active is the turn your fourth land drops, which always seems to be a critical point for advancing your board state with something like Sorin or flashback Lingering Souls + Intangible.
The thing you have to realize about life gain versus a deck like burn is that it doesn't do anything if they can still out clock it. Timely gives you 6 life, which is essentially two cards in a burn deck. In the late burn game plan, that is two draws or two turns. If you can't close out the game in those two turns, then you didn't buy anything. That is why cards like Sorin, Auriok Champion, and Vault of the Archangel are so good in tokens versus burn and other decks: they are sources of incremental and long term life gain.
yeah, but the key point is that it buys us 2 turns JUST when we need it, i.e., turns 3-4. This way we can play Sorin and still have three guys on the ground to keep gaining life with. When I lose, it is usually turn 3-4, so I have to disagree with vault here because turn 5 against burn is waaay too optimistic.
I agree that Timely buys time during the crucial turns in which we generally make a move to control the board state by resolving Sorin etc. And the creatures (which in practice very rarely fail to be created unless you happened to topdeck the card in late game) are still very relevant in the Burn matchup despite their lack of flying due to synergy with cards like Sorin and use as blockers.
I have actually had some games against Burn in which Vault was relevant but they have been fairly uncommon. My alternate build runs Shambling Vents instead, which seems a little better in practice but still not great. The turn it becomes active is the turn your fourth land drops, which always seems to be a critical point for advancing your board state with something like Sorin or flashback Lingering Souls + Intangible.
I'm not entirely sure what builds people are running that have trouble vs burn. My build is pretty generic and I'm something silly like 30-1 vs Burn. It has never once seemed like a matchup we should have trouble with.
Never really paid much attention to BW Tokens as i never really considered it a good deck (My first encounter was me playing Tron... Ugin says it all). After some investigation and reading into it a bit the deck really appeals to me and i want to give it a shot.
The list i am thinking about playing looks like this:
I am not sure if Timely Reinforcements is better than Auriok Champion against Burn. Normally BW Tokens has more creatures than them i assume. No Creatures in the MD is because i try to blank all good removal my opponent has (Paths/Terminate etc.) and then board in the bigger fellas who survive Pyroclasms and Angers.
Further i am not sure what to make of Selfless Spirit. It's obviously amazing against boardwipes but is it worth playing it MD?
Would love to hear your opinions on this!
You should look at some of the more recent lists, several things in that build are rather dated. You should start by running 3-4 Fatal Push, 6-8 Fetches, and 4 Concealed Courtyard. You don't need 4 Godless Shrine, or any Isolated Chapel. Also the sideboard creatures (Brimaz/Hero) aren't really something worth running, and definitely don't run a combined 4 of them.
depending on your meta, you can also take 1 sorin/gideon out for the thrid fatal push (i think sorin is a bit better in this deck, but it also depends on your meta).
Do you play Fatal Push in addition to Path? So up to 8 Removal spells?
Hero and Brimaz just seemed like powerhouses that apply a lot of pressure. I will check out some recent lists.
The last time i actually saw BW Tokens was a bit before twin was banned.
Yeah 4 Path, 4 Push is pretty much the way to go, revolt rarely matters cause something like 90% of the most common creatures in modern are 2cmc or less. I personally run 4 IoK, 4 Seize as well. Deck has changed a lot in the last year between Vent, Gideon, Push, Courtyard, and stuff like Blessed Alliance and Collective Brutality.
Well, then I must have been very unlucky because my list is strictly better against burn MD (1 timely, 1 collective brutality, 2 less thoughtseizes, 2 less BB, raise the alarm, 1 more sorin...). Agree that you SB works better with champions and blessed alliances, but I think 30-1 is just crazy if you consider the 1st matches as well.
Maybe I just had some bad luck and I am somehow biased...
Well, then I must have been very unlucky because my list is strictly better against burn MD (1 timely, 1 collective brutality, 2 less thoughtseizes, 2 less BB, raise the alarm, 1 more sorin...). Agree that you SB works better with champions and blessed alliances, but I think 30-1 is just crazy if you consider the 1st matches as well.
Maybe I just had some bad luck and I am somehow biased...
I'm talking full rounds, not individual games. I literally can't remember the last time I lost to burn and I face it almost weekly. 30-1 was a guess based on looking through my records but can't be entirely certain about that.
Okay, then I can see the reason why. How much would you say your SB affects the match? I would say it changes it dramatically. Actually, I would expect a shell like yours to mostly lose game 1 but recover in the second and third. Is it like that? Don't you feel too risky to "grant" burn the first match?
I'm not entirely sure what builds people are running that have trouble vs burn. My build is pretty generic and I'm something silly like 30-1 vs Burn. It has never once seemed like a matchup we should have trouble with.
I don't think anybody is "having trouble" with it so much as discussing pros and cons of specific card choices. I'm probably about 85% / 15% against burn. 30-1 is impressive. That would mean that you have significantly beaten the odds when it comes to being land stuck / flooded.
Every loss to burn that I can think of has occurred from being land flooded on Game 3. Almost lost to a deck that played sideboard Anger of the Gods when I had no more token producers recently, but Sorin, Solemn Visitor's ultimate plus Gideon, Ally of Zendikar still had them on a fast enough clock that I was able to outrace them by a turn.
Okay, then I can see the reason why. How much would you say your SB affects the match? I would say it changes it dramatically. Actually, I would expect a shell like yours to mostly lose game 1 but recover in the second and third. Is it like that? Don't you feel too risky to "grant" burn the first match?
Not really, I'd say I win 2-0 about as often as 2-1. Honestly game 1 usually seems pretty easy, bigger issue I've run into is a lot of local burn players run a 1 of Ensnaring Bridge side which is a pain.
Our meta is like 5 Tron players and a Lantern player. It's awful playing in events these days. The rest are a mix of whatever's trending, because our players are like that.
My burn deck runs 2 Ensnaring Bridges in the side. Beware.
If you play tightly with the deck and keep your goal to preserve your life total, I can't think of a standard build that will lose to burn on average Game 1. Just weather the storm and if you have tokens on the battlefield and they have one or two cards in hand, you will probably win.
Separate topic,
Can someone give some evidence about our extant Tier 1 match-ups? I am afraid I don't have much. I noticed they have Jund as Tier 2. Obviously Tron is still bad, but can anyone give more insight into Eldrazi or DS Aggro? I have played some Eldrazi and it seemed close to 50-50 pre and post board got worse (possibly because my board was not well adjusted to Eldrazi), but I don't think my perception is that accurate.
Separate topic,
Can someone give some evidence about our extant Tier 1 match-ups? I am afraid I don't have much. I noticed they have Jund as Tier 2. Obviously Tron is still bad, but can anyone give more insight into Eldrazi or DS Aggro? I have played some Eldrazi and it seemed close to 50-50 pre and post board got worse (possibly because my board was not well adjusted to Eldrazi), but I don't think my perception is that accurate.
DSJ is pretty good, 55/45 probably though I've yet to face it enough to be sure. Eldrazi is bad, like Valakut bad. 35/65 at best I'd say, multiple EE main, Displacer, and Smasher pretty much make our lives suck. Good news though is I've faced Eldrazi Tron and that's actually significantly better than normal Tron, still pretty bad but not awful. They've got many weaknesses, they can't cast anything early without Temple, don't run Ugin, and seem to be split on if they should run Chalice or not from what I've seen.
Hey there. Been on a small hiatus here, was trying some other decks recently. However last night I went back with my BW token and got 1st place. Made some changes to my deck, I basically added a playset of Street Wraith and condescend the decklist for consistancy at the cost of some life. It also make siding in cards way more easier:
Round 1 vs Abzan Token (On the Play)(2-0): Basically a mix between BW token and soul sisters, but budget and more all out on the token+anthem aspect instead of hand-hate and spot removal. Green allowed him to run Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and he relied on +1/+1 counters a lot instead of anthem effect. It was a homebrew, so there was a lot to left improve. We talked a lot about those said improvement. Some he liked, some he didn't. I pretty sure he fell in love with Sorin, Solemn Visitor. Game 1: Was pretty close. I had to mulligan once, and the hand was not fantastic. He then got three soul sisters up by turn 2 and got to like 60 life in no time. Fortunately, I got two Intangible virtue out with a Vault of the Archangel which allowed me to go in a war of attrition and eventually win. Game 2: Basically a god hand, while he was mana short.
Side-in-out: Nothing. Was pretty confident with what I had, and actually I have nothing in my side for tokens.
Round 2 vs Golgari Elf (On the draw)(2-1): Classic golgari elf. We traded tips too after the games we had on sideboard cards and individual picks we each made on our elf decks. first two round were actually very enjoyable. Game 1: He blasted me out of oblivion as I tapped out at the worst possible time. He Chord of calling an Ezuri, renegade leader at the end of my turn for game on his turn 4. Game 2: We both mulligan to 5. it was crappy match with a crappy victory. Game 3: He actually got manashort. Only one land and one mana dork, that I plasted with Fatal Push. He got stuck at two mana for five turn. Needless to say, It was more than enought time to set-up my board.
side-in/out: Not a lot. Two Runed Halo in for Street Wraith to deal with shaman and that's it.
Round 3 vs Grixis Control (On the draw)(2-0): I think the match-up was to my advantage. But I could not say for sure because; Game 1: He mulligan twice and He mana flooded. Game 2: He mulligan once and He got mana short.
Side-in-out: My Rest in Peace and Nihil Spellbomb for three Street Wraith.
Round 4 vs Jund (On the draw)(2-0): Good match-up, hard and long games. Both were very close and both time my bitterblossom and Street Wraith brought me very close to getting killed. Game 1: Pretty long game, but I was able to set up my board to go for a game of attrition. Sorin saved my life here. Game 2: His sided enchantment hate came in and kicked one of each Bitterblossom and Intangible Virtue. He then proceeded to keep me in tchek with Liliana, the last hope and Walking Ballista. For twelve turns. Thanks to Runed Halo on Ballista and an eventual second Bitterblossom AND him topdecking lands for days, I was able to secure the game. His sideboard was not ready for tokens though. He basically had now sweepers.
Overall, had a fantastic night. Would have liked to play against some burn deck to see if me hurting myself is detrimental to the match-up or not, but heh, can't complain.
I don't think that is the reason. I certainly helps but I think previous comments have been clear about the deck performing already well against burn. I also ran into some problems against this deck and I am now trying a second timely reinforcements but it could also be that I am not playing as I should, trying to be as conservative as possible... Can we see your list?
I agree that Timely buys time during the crucial turns in which we generally make a move to control the board state by resolving Sorin etc. And the creatures (which in practice very rarely fail to be created unless you happened to topdeck the card in late game) are still very relevant in the Burn matchup despite their lack of flying due to synergy with cards like Sorin and use as blockers.
I have actually had some games against Burn in which Vault was relevant but they have been fairly uncommon. My alternate build runs Shambling Vents instead, which seems a little better in practice but still not great. The turn it becomes active is the turn your fourth land drops, which always seems to be a critical point for advancing your board state with something like Sorin or flashback Lingering Souls + Intangible.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
I'm not entirely sure what builds people are running that have trouble vs burn. My build is pretty generic and I'm something silly like 30-1 vs Burn. It has never once seemed like a matchup we should have trouble with.
You should look at some of the more recent lists, several things in that build are rather dated. You should start by running 3-4 Fatal Push, 6-8 Fetches, and 4 Concealed Courtyard. You don't need 4 Godless Shrine, or any Isolated Chapel. Also the sideboard creatures (Brimaz/Hero) aren't really something worth running, and definitely don't run a combined 4 of them.
Hero and Brimaz just seemed like powerhouses that apply a lot of pressure. I will check out some recent lists.
The last time i actually saw BW Tokens was a bit before twin was banned.
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
down: 1 zealous persecution, 1 bitterblossom, 2 isolated chapel, 2 swamps, 1 Godless shrine, 1 fetid heath, and 1 gideon
up: 2 fatal push, 1 sorin, 1 concealed courtyard, 3fetches, 2 ghost quarters
depending on your meta, you can also take 1 sorin/gideon out for the thrid fatal push (i think sorin is a bit better in this deck, but it also depends on your meta).
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Yeah 4 Path, 4 Push is pretty much the way to go, revolt rarely matters cause something like 90% of the most common creatures in modern are 2cmc or less. I personally run 4 IoK, 4 Seize as well. Deck has changed a lot in the last year between Vent, Gideon, Push, Courtyard, and stuff like Blessed Alliance and Collective Brutality.
3x Burn, 1x Bant Eldrazi, 3x Junk/Jund, 1x Ad Nauseam, 2x UWx Control, 2x Grixis Delver, 1x Eldrazi Tron, 2x Grishoal, 1x Tooth & Nail, 2x Affinity.
That's what comes to mind. Probably forgot some decks. But a lot of it's a really healthy mix of the current meta imo
BRGJundGRB
GCTronCG
WBRMardu PyromancerRBW
Legacy:
GElvesG
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
3x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
4x Windswept Heath
Planeswalker
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
4x Thoughtseize
Instant
4x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
1x Zealous Persecution
Enchantment
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Auriok Champion
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Celestial Purge
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Fragmentize
2x Rest in Peace
2x Runed Halo
2x Stony Silence
1x Worship
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Maybe I just had some bad luck and I am somehow biased...
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I'm talking full rounds, not individual games. I literally can't remember the last time I lost to burn and I face it almost weekly. 30-1 was a guess based on looking through my records but can't be entirely certain about that.
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
I don't think anybody is "having trouble" with it so much as discussing pros and cons of specific card choices. I'm probably about 85% / 15% against burn. 30-1 is impressive. That would mean that you have significantly beaten the odds when it comes to being land stuck / flooded.
Every loss to burn that I can think of has occurred from being land flooded on Game 3. Almost lost to a deck that played sideboard Anger of the Gods when I had no more token producers recently, but Sorin, Solemn Visitor's ultimate plus Gideon, Ally of Zendikar still had them on a fast enough clock that I was able to outrace them by a turn.
BW BW Tokens
BUW Esper Shadow
BUR Grixis Shadow
Not really, I'd say I win 2-0 about as often as 2-1. Honestly game 1 usually seems pretty easy, bigger issue I've run into is a lot of local burn players run a 1 of Ensnaring Bridge side which is a pain.
If you play tightly with the deck and keep your goal to preserve your life total, I can't think of a standard build that will lose to burn on average Game 1. Just weather the storm and if you have tokens on the battlefield and they have one or two cards in hand, you will probably win.
Can someone give some evidence about our extant Tier 1 match-ups? I am afraid I don't have much. I noticed they have Jund as Tier 2. Obviously Tron is still bad, but can anyone give more insight into Eldrazi or DS Aggro? I have played some Eldrazi and it seemed close to 50-50 pre and post board got worse (possibly because my board was not well adjusted to Eldrazi), but I don't think my perception is that accurate.
DSJ is pretty good, 55/45 probably though I've yet to face it enough to be sure. Eldrazi is bad, like Valakut bad. 35/65 at best I'd say, multiple EE main, Displacer, and Smasher pretty much make our lives suck. Good news though is I've faced Eldrazi Tron and that's actually significantly better than normal Tron, still pretty bad but not awful. They've got many weaknesses, they can't cast anything early without Temple, don't run Ugin, and seem to be split on if they should run Chalice or not from what I've seen.
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
5x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (8)
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
3x Spectral Procession
3x Thoughtseize
1x Timely Reinforcements
Instant (9)
4x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
1x Zealous Persecution
Planeswalker (3)
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Creature (4)
4x Street Wraith
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Fragmentize
1x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Rest in Peace
2x Runed Halo
2x Selfless Spirit
3x Stony Silence
2x Sundering Growth
Round 1 vs Abzan Token (On the Play)(2-0): Basically a mix between BW token and soul sisters, but budget and more all out on the token+anthem aspect instead of hand-hate and spot removal. Green allowed him to run Nissa, Voice of Zendikar and he relied on +1/+1 counters a lot instead of anthem effect. It was a homebrew, so there was a lot to left improve. We talked a lot about those said improvement. Some he liked, some he didn't. I pretty sure he fell in love with Sorin, Solemn Visitor.
Game 1: Was pretty close. I had to mulligan once, and the hand was not fantastic. He then got three soul sisters up by turn 2 and got to like 60 life in no time. Fortunately, I got two Intangible virtue out with a Vault of the Archangel which allowed me to go in a war of attrition and eventually win.
Game 2: Basically a god hand, while he was mana short.
Side-in-out: Nothing. Was pretty confident with what I had, and actually I have nothing in my side for tokens.
Round 2 vs Golgari Elf (On the draw)(2-1): Classic golgari elf. We traded tips too after the games we had on sideboard cards and individual picks we each made on our elf decks. first two round were actually very enjoyable.
Game 1: He blasted me out of oblivion as I tapped out at the worst possible time. He Chord of calling an Ezuri, renegade leader at the end of my turn for game on his turn 4.
Game 2: We both mulligan to 5. it was crappy match with a crappy victory.
Game 3: He actually got manashort. Only one land and one mana dork, that I plasted with Fatal Push. He got stuck at two mana for five turn. Needless to say, It was more than enought time to set-up my board.
side-in/out: Not a lot. Two Runed Halo in for Street Wraith to deal with shaman and that's it.
Round 3 vs Grixis Control (On the draw)(2-0): I think the match-up was to my advantage. But I could not say for sure because;
Game 1: He mulligan twice and He mana flooded.
Game 2: He mulligan once and He got mana short.
Side-in-out: My Rest in Peace and Nihil Spellbomb for three Street Wraith.
Round 4 vs Jund (On the draw)(2-0): Good match-up, hard and long games. Both were very close and both time my bitterblossom and Street Wraith brought me very close to getting killed.
Game 1: Pretty long game, but I was able to set up my board to go for a game of attrition. Sorin saved my life here.
Game 2: His sided enchantment hate came in and kicked one of each Bitterblossom and Intangible Virtue. He then proceeded to keep me in tchek with Liliana, the last hope and Walking Ballista. For twelve turns. Thanks to Runed Halo on Ballista and an eventual second Bitterblossom AND him topdecking lands for days, I was able to secure the game. His sideboard was not ready for tokens though. He basically had now sweepers.
Overall, had a fantastic night. Would have liked to play against some burn deck to see if me hurting myself is detrimental to the match-up or not, but heh, can't complain.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic