Hello, I'm thinking about BW tokens some time. Long time ago I was playing budget version in budget modern league in our LGS.
I have most of cards but the bitterblossom is that must have or is this archetype playable even without that enchantment?
I have been doing very well against control and attrition even without BB. I use raise the alarm as many have mentioned, however what singlehandedly closes games for me in long games is phyrexian arena. Just like BB its not what u want against aggro, in which case you can swap it out.
And of course most importantly, Phyrexian Arena is way easier on the wallet.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Is phyrexian arena really that good? I understand that for grindy matchups it is just bonkers when landed. However, I am not sure about the place it would take. 3CMC spell slots are quite settled for the main token generators. Maybe something like:
I totally agree on that. I am currently running 1 anguished unmaking instead of the phyrexian arena. At the very worst, it will be painful removal, but I have found it to be a card that never dies in your hand. Plus it makes 1st games against tron, lantern, or storm much better.
I will have to work on my manabase due to symbols distribution, it's basically made from cards I have at this moment. Also I'm not sure about sideboard.... well, it depends also on my local meta. I hope it won't suffer from the absence of bitterblossom
What do you think about it? It's really just first shot, maybe it's just pile of trash I will be glad for any advice
Ten token makers does not seem adequate; Plainswalkers make tokens too, but yours are four-mana PW's. I'd run twelve token makers outside of Plainswalkers.
Six Plainswalkers seem too many. I'm on three but you probably shouldn't take my advice. Still, four sounds much more reasonable.
One should probably run a second Godless Shrine and there's no good reason to run Isolated Chapel anymore. You could stick with one if you really have a particular fondness for it, but it really seems like a piece of crap these days with even fewer lands available to enable it to enter untapped (you have five). A third Shrine is unnecessary but would almost certainly be better than the first Chapel.
Well it is not that different from your typical shell. But 5 walkers with 23 lands is way too much imo. Even control decks with 25 lands probably run a lower curve. You really don't want your opening hand to contain two 4-drops. In my opinion, four 4-mana cards are the cap for 23-24 lands to minimize mulligans.
If you're searching for a sac outlet and/or want card filtering, Hidden Stockpile is a not so bad option, it's even pretty descent. Scry is not something we have access to unless you run Temple of Silence or splash blue. It could help you block lifelink creatures better while hopefully getting you a good draw, or at least avoid you a bad draw.
However if you're looking for a token generator, or persay, a remplacement for Bitterblossom, it's unfortunately not good enough. You're gonna put realisticly 1 to 3 tokens (without flying) per game with the help of fetches. It will also make some combat phase more tolerable on the attack, but like you said, the fact that it triggers only during our end step really limits its token generating ability.
But that's my opinion. I've heard it does well against the more control decks out there, but I personally don't like the card. It's definitely worth testing tough. Card's far from being unplayable.
If you're searching for a sac outlet and/or want card filtering, Hidden Stockpile is a not so bad option, it's even pretty descent. Scry is not something we have access to unless you run Temple of Silence or splash blue. It could help you block lifelink creatures better while hopefully getting you a good draw, or at least avoid you a bad draw.
However if you're looking for a token generator, or persay, a remplacement for Bitterblossom, it's unfortunately not good enough. You're gonna put realisticly 1 to 3 tokens (without flying) per game with the help of fetches. It will also make some combat phase more tolerable on the attack, but like you said, the fact that it triggers only during our end step really limits its token generating ability.
But that's my opinion. I've heard it does well against the more control decks out there, but I personally don't like the card. It's definitely worth testing tough. Card's far from being unplayable.
I'm leery of it, but I may well give it a try the next time I trot out the tokens.
Just curious, after a hard night of doing bad: what are some of the last real good finishes this deck has put up? Looking at the SCG regionals, we're completely absent. Definitely not dropping the deck, but really wondering what the 2017 skeleton is or if there even is one after the typical 4souls, 4 Spectrals, 4 Virtues. Some amount of removal say 8 pieces. About 6 pieces of hand disruption. 4 or so planeswalkers. 23 lands. That leaves us with about 7 spots that seem to be fairly flex. Hidden Stockpile and Sram's Expertise seem to be bad. Is BB worth playing right now? Is RtA just way more explosive? Brutality main board?
I'm running one. Its just a bonus card for sometimes letting my Sorins come in with 5 loyalty and uptick to 6. The main reason I don't run more is of course, the fact that the tokens don't fly. The singleton runs in place of Spectral Procession, which I've found on more than 1 occasion to be a 4 cmc spell.
As a side bonus, the blowout from Echoing Truth or Maelstrom Pulse isn't as bad.
So has anyone played Sram's Expertise? I didn't crack any copies and I'm wondering if its worth buying a single or 2 just to experiment.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
I decided to agree with you all on Leyline of the meek. It's one of the least good anthem we can play and I ended up putting it in the sideboard too often after game 1. From now on, if I ever want more anthem in the deck I'll go for a planeswalker or Honor of the Pure. I also don't like drawing into it, and when I did, I almost always wished it was a removal instead. I also feel like a discard effect turn 1 is more important than a free anthem effect. With that being said, the leylines have been replace with an extra copy of both Thoughtseize and Fatal Push.
The only other maindeck change I've made is an extra copy of Shambling Vent for one less copy of Godless Shrine. This card is good. Like Crazy good. People keep forgeting about it, and it gives you life back for bitterblossom and its an option after a sweeper. I already had two copies, but I'm gonna try three copies.
For the Sideboard, I decided to give the axe to Leyline of sanctity has it stayed in my sideboard far too often to be considered crucial, and the amount of gain life I now maindeck is actually giving me an edge agains the burn match-ups, which is 90% of the reason why I ran leyline in the first place. (the other 10% was 8-rack)
I'm also beginning to get a liking to both Pithing Needle and Blessed Alliance. I thought Pithing Needle was just like a bad discard effect, but being able to shut down cards that get on the field too quick (Aether Vial or Expedition map) or the ability to scrap wincons (Ezuri, renegade Leader or Lightning Storm) or the ability to bind the hatecards that gets sided against us (Ratchet bomb or Engineered explosives) is just too much utility to overlook. It can also paralyze any Manland or planeswalker. All of this for a single mana of any color. Also, our discard effect tend to be dead when we draw it late game, while Pithing Needle will always be live against the deck we side it in no matter when we draw it.
As for Blessed Alliance, it's one of the only reliable way to get rid of Reality Smasher without discarding a card that cannot be blasted by Abrupt decay I've found (Pretty specific criteria, I know). It's also a nice card against Bogle and the "gain 4 life" option is actually funny against burn. It's also additional removal against anything I find a little bit too aggro.
I also decided to run a copy of Zealous Persecution in the side for my games against Coco Elves and Eldrazi, as it really shines against those two decks. I'd also like to say that after testing, I feel that Timely Reinforcements is definitely better than Auriok Champion, but I'd classify this more as "personal preference/Opinion" rather than "Fact".
I'm gonna put those changes to the test in the next few weeks. Any opinion is welcome.
If you're searching for a sac outlet and/or want card filtering, Hidden Stockpile is a not so bad option, it's even pretty descent. Scry is not something we have access to unless you run Temple of Silence or splash blue. It could help you block lifelink creatures better while hopefully getting you a good draw, or at least avoid you a bad draw.
However if you're looking for a token generator, or persay, a remplacement for Bitterblossom, it's unfortunately not good enough. You're gonna put realisticly 1 to 3 tokens (without flying) per game with the help of fetches. It will also make some combat phase more tolerable on the attack, but like you said, the fact that it triggers only during our end step really limits its token generating ability.
But that's my opinion. I've heard it does well against the more control decks out there, but I personally don't like the card. It's definitely worth testing tough. Card's far from being unplayable.
I'm leery of it, but I may well give it a try the next time I trot out the tokens.
I feel like the card would shine better in an more "aristocrat" kind of build. Somehting that runs Blood Artist and Zulaport cutthroat.
That leaves you with 4 flex spots if you run 23 lands. Obviously, if you want to run more black cards like Lilianna of the veil, you might want to swap one or two Spectral procession for Timely reinforcements. I also feel like the very minimum of token generator to have in the deck is twelve. Off course, the removals and discard effects are interchangeable. You may even run more if you want has I do agree that 8 seem like the number of removal you'd want. However, I'm still not sure about discard effect. I've been running between 6-8 since I started playing the deck and I never settled for a fixed number. I definitely don't want to go below 6 though.
I'd also want to point out that since most Planeswalker we want to run cost 4 mana, do not run more than four unless you up your mana base to 24 lands. I ran 5 on a 23 land mana base in the earlier days I was playing the deck (3 sorin and 2 elspeth) and it caused unpleasant situation where I was stuck with three lands and two planeswalker in hand a little too often.
Also, BB? Bitterblossom? I'd say yes it's definitely worth running, but can be replaced with Raise the alarm if your meta is too agressive. I personally run both at 3/2 copies respectively and it worked pretty well up til now.
Some unusual choices:
- Landbase: Only 5 fetches, a lot of basics and 2 Ghost quarter. There is no Spectral or Lili with demanding manacost, which has upsides regarding lifetotal, Bloodmoon and the inclusion of utility lands. Less triggers for Revolt though.
- Token Producers: No Spectral, 2 BB, 2 Raise and 2 Secure the Wastes. Not sure I like 2 of the latter.
- 6 Planeswalkers can put in quite a bit of work in the lategame but also raise the curve.
4-0 tonight, also my first night as judge, I'm working on my L1. R1 Bye, R2 Madcap Moon (2-0), R3 Merfolk (2-1), R4 Eternal Command (2-0).
Really Liking this list of yours Fragmentize looks sexy
Yeah, I had to put Artifact/Enchant hate back in cause of a fun hating guy deciding to play Lantern at my LGS lol, but they're pretty solid, the 1cmc cost makes up for the sorcery speed.
I've been starting to look for alternative cards to Rest in peace for grave hate. I don't like the noncombo this card has with Lingering souls and so I searched for one-sided grave hate. My eyes have stopped on both Nihil Spellbomb and Ravenous Trap. Why Nihil spellbomb over Relic of Progenitus? Well they both have self replacing effect, which I like, but the former has two upsides. First, it can be tapped as soon as it touches the battlefield to remove the grave for no mana if need be, and second, it only target our opponent's graveyard. The single black mana for the draw effect is a bit of a bummer compared to the 1 mana of any color of relic, but I think it's maneagable with our manabase now and it's optional.
As for Ravenous Trap, my only fear is against Delver decks, for they do not always send 3 cards in the grave per turn which can leave it stuck in the hand til turn 4. Most of the time it goes to two cards with a fetch and a removal or a cantrip. It also doesn't replaces itself, but the fact that it can surprise exile an opponent's grave at instant speed is outstanding, and it's Inquisition of Kozilekproof and it also has the potential to break Gifts ungiven combo.
To be honest I don't know which one to run if I was to replace Rest in peace
I have been doing very well against control and attrition even without BB. I use raise the alarm as many have mentioned, however what singlehandedly closes games for me in long games is phyrexian arena. Just like BB its not what u want against aggro, in which case you can swap it out.
And of course most importantly, Phyrexian Arena is way easier on the wallet.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
2x Bloodstained Mire
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Flooded Strand
2x Ghost Quarter
4x Godless Shrine
3x Plains
2x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
1x Windbrisk Heights
2x Windswept Heath
Enchantments (9)
2x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
2x Leyline of the Meek
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Collective Brutality
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
2x Thoughtseize
1x Timely Reinforcements
Instants (9)
2x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
2x Raise the Alarm
1x Zealous Persecution
PW (3)
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Pithing Needle
2x Rest in Peace
2x Runed Halo
2x Selfless Spirit
2x Stain the Mind
2x Stony Silence
2x Sundering Growth
Link to deck @ TappedOut.net
Also, in the SB I run 2 ghostly prison. Any argument to change them for 2 blessed alliance?
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
Ten token makers does not seem adequate; Plainswalkers make tokens too, but yours are four-mana PW's. I'd run twelve token makers outside of Plainswalkers.
Six Plainswalkers seem too many. I'm on three but you probably shouldn't take my advice. Still, four sounds much more reasonable.
One should probably run a second Godless Shrine and there's no good reason to run Isolated Chapel anymore. You could stick with one if you really have a particular fondness for it, but it really seems like a piece of crap these days with even fewer lands available to enable it to enter untapped (you have five). A third Shrine is unnecessary but would almost certainly be better than the first Chapel.
None of your side-board cards are unreasonable.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
BW BW Tokens
RG Dredgeplendid Reclamation
RW Boros Burn
GB Elves
RB Dark Goblins
WU Azorius' Relic
4x Concealed Courtyard
2x Fetid Heath
3x Flooded Strand
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
2x Plains
3x Shambling Vent
1x Swamp
2x Vault of the Archangel
2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4x Liliana of the Veil
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Enchantments:8
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
Instants:9
2x Anguished Unmaking
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
2x Spectral Procession
2x Thoughtseize
Well it is not that different from your typical shell. But 5 walkers with 23 lands is way too much imo. Even control decks with 25 lands probably run a lower curve. You really don't want your opening hand to contain two 4-drops. In my opinion, four 4-mana cards are the cap for 23-24 lands to minimize mulligans.
However if you're looking for a token generator, or persay, a remplacement for Bitterblossom, it's unfortunately not good enough. You're gonna put realisticly 1 to 3 tokens (without flying) per game with the help of fetches. It will also make some combat phase more tolerable on the attack, but like you said, the fact that it triggers only during our end step really limits its token generating ability.
But that's my opinion. I've heard it does well against the more control decks out there, but I personally don't like the card. It's definitely worth testing tough. Card's far from being unplayable.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
I'm leery of it, but I may well give it a try the next time I trot out the tokens.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I'm running one. Its just a bonus card for sometimes letting my Sorins come in with 5 loyalty and uptick to 6. The main reason I don't run more is of course, the fact that the tokens don't fly. The singleton runs in place of Spectral Procession, which I've found on more than 1 occasion to be a 4 cmc spell.
As a side bonus, the blowout from Echoing Truth or Maelstrom Pulse isn't as bad.
So has anyone played Sram's Expertise? I didn't crack any copies and I'm wondering if its worth buying a single or 2 just to experiment.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
4x Lingering souls
3x Spectral Procession
3x Bitterblossom
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Raise the Alarm
Anthems/Buffs (8)
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Zealous Persecution
Spot Removal (8)
4x Path to Exile
4x Fatal Push
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Thoughtseize
Land (23)
6x Plains
1x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
1x Marsh Flats
4x Windswept Heath
4x Concealed Courtyard
3x Shambling Vent
3x Godless Shrine
2x Pithing Needle
2x Blessed Alliance
2x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Rest in Peace
2x Runed Halo
2x Selfless Spirit
2x Sundering Growth
1x Zealous Persecution
I decided to agree with you all on Leyline of the meek. It's one of the least good anthem we can play and I ended up putting it in the sideboard too often after game 1. From now on, if I ever want more anthem in the deck I'll go for a planeswalker or Honor of the Pure. I also don't like drawing into it, and when I did, I almost always wished it was a removal instead. I also feel like a discard effect turn 1 is more important than a free anthem effect. With that being said, the leylines have been replace with an extra copy of both Thoughtseize and Fatal Push.
The only other maindeck change I've made is an extra copy of Shambling Vent for one less copy of Godless Shrine. This card is good. Like Crazy good. People keep forgeting about it, and it gives you life back for bitterblossom and its an option after a sweeper. I already had two copies, but I'm gonna try three copies.
For the Sideboard, I decided to give the axe to Leyline of sanctity has it stayed in my sideboard far too often to be considered crucial, and the amount of gain life I now maindeck is actually giving me an edge agains the burn match-ups, which is 90% of the reason why I ran leyline in the first place. (the other 10% was 8-rack)
I'm also beginning to get a liking to both Pithing Needle and Blessed Alliance. I thought Pithing Needle was just like a bad discard effect, but being able to shut down cards that get on the field too quick (Aether Vial or Expedition map) or the ability to scrap wincons (Ezuri, renegade Leader or Lightning Storm) or the ability to bind the hatecards that gets sided against us (Ratchet bomb or Engineered explosives) is just too much utility to overlook. It can also paralyze any Manland or planeswalker. All of this for a single mana of any color. Also, our discard effect tend to be dead when we draw it late game, while Pithing Needle will always be live against the deck we side it in no matter when we draw it.
As for Blessed Alliance, it's one of the only reliable way to get rid of Reality Smasher without discarding a card that cannot be blasted by Abrupt decay I've found (Pretty specific criteria, I know). It's also a nice card against Bogle and the "gain 4 life" option is actually funny against burn. It's also additional removal against anything I find a little bit too aggro.
I also decided to run a copy of Zealous Persecution in the side for my games against Coco Elves and Eldrazi, as it really shines against those two decks. I'd also like to say that after testing, I feel that Timely Reinforcements is definitely better than Auriok Champion, but I'd classify this more as "personal preference/Opinion" rather than "Fact".
I'm gonna put those changes to the test in the next few weeks. Any opinion is welcome.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
I feel like the card would shine better in an more "aristocrat" kind of build. Somehting that runs Blood Artist and Zulaport cutthroat.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
4x Lingering Souls
4x Spectral Procession
4x Bitterblossom
4x Intangible Virtue
3x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1x Zealous Persecution
4x Path to Exile
3x Fatal Push
Hand Hate (6)
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
That leaves you with 4 flex spots if you run 23 lands. Obviously, if you want to run more black cards like Lilianna of the veil, you might want to swap one or two Spectral procession for Timely reinforcements. I also feel like the very minimum of token generator to have in the deck is twelve. Off course, the removals and discard effects are interchangeable. You may even run more if you want has I do agree that 8 seem like the number of removal you'd want. However, I'm still not sure about discard effect. I've been running between 6-8 since I started playing the deck and I never settled for a fixed number. I definitely don't want to go below 6 though.
I'd also want to point out that since most Planeswalker we want to run cost 4 mana, do not run more than four unless you up your mana base to 24 lands. I ran 5 on a 23 land mana base in the earlier days I was playing the deck (3 sorin and 2 elspeth) and it caused unpleasant situation where I was stuck with three lands and two planeswalker in hand a little too often.
Also, BB? Bitterblossom? I'd say yes it's definitely worth running, but can be replaced with Raise the alarm if your meta is too agressive. I personally run both at 3/2 copies respectively and it worked pretty well up til now.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Really Liking this list of yours Fragmentize looks sexy
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
5 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Windswept Heath
24 INSTANTS and SORC.
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
3 Path to Exile
2 Raise the Alarm
2 Secure the Wastes
3 Thoughtseize
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Zealous Persecution
12 OTHER SPELLS
2 Bitterblossom
1 Elspeth Tirel
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Intangible Virtue
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Celestial Purge
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Sundering Growth
Some unusual choices:
- Landbase: Only 5 fetches, a lot of basics and 2 Ghost quarter. There is no Spectral or Lili with demanding manacost, which has upsides regarding lifetotal, Bloodmoon and the inclusion of utility lands. Less triggers for Revolt though.
- Token Producers: No Spectral, 2 BB, 2 Raise and 2 Secure the Wastes. Not sure I like 2 of the latter.
- 6 Planeswalkers can put in quite a bit of work in the lategame but also raise the curve.
Yeah, I had to put Artifact/Enchant hate back in cause of a fun hating guy deciding to play Lantern at my LGS lol, but they're pretty solid, the 1cmc cost makes up for the sorcery speed.
As for Ravenous Trap, my only fear is against Delver decks, for they do not always send 3 cards in the grave per turn which can leave it stuck in the hand til turn 4. Most of the time it goes to two cards with a fetch and a removal or a cantrip. It also doesn't replaces itself, but the fact that it can surprise exile an opponent's grave at instant speed is outstanding, and it's Inquisition of Kozilekproof and it also has the potential to break Gifts ungiven combo.
To be honest I don't know which one to run if I was to replace Rest in peace
Tl;DR : Which is better:Nihil Spellbomb, Rest in Peace or Ravenous Trap?
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)
Cage also hates on some other strategies, such as the Collected Company plan - which, I told, is a thing again - and Snapcaster Mage shenanigans..
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn