On an added note: further testing of the Wescoe list showed that it does worsen our Affinity and Jund matches (esp. Pre-board). BUT, I still 2-0 affinity (although I think he kept questionable hands). The games were slower and Lili made it easier to grind them out, but it was a very different match from what I am used to.
One thing that I was thinking after yesterday. What if the proper removal suite with Fatal Push should be 4 Fatal Push/3 Path to Exile. Path is still the best removal available, but the Exile clause isn't necessarily always relevant and Push will hit just about everything in modern without giving them land. Just a thought. It is probably up to individual meta.
I would say the 4 big decks that the exile clause is relevant against are Tron, Collected Company, Titanshift, and Grixis Control. Of course there are things like Dredge but any sort of removal is pretty mediocre against them. Otherwise Push kills just as much so it's a reasonable split. But there should still be room for 8 removals in the deck imo.
Heehee one mana removal being bad in standard. Heehee.
I already updated my TappedOut list to include Fatal Push. There seems to be a few cards in this set that were designed to be at their worst in limited/standard actually.
He also sees Push not as an 4-of in any list except Faeries and GB Rock. Both decks got a huge buff because there was no efficient T1 removel for them available. Both decks have the advantage not being so weak against Blood Moon decks.
Tokens already has its T1 Removel, so we dont need 4 Push next to them. I totally agree with Craig here. Besides what are your problems with Path? In my Opinion it is just bad against T1 Dork. Against other fast decks the land does not matter. Besides pathing in their turn delays the land bonus for 1 turn. I am going to play 4 Path 1 Cut 2 Push 2 Brutality 2 Inquisition and 3 Thoughtseize in the future. 7 pure removel spells is the limit to this deck. This package seems right to encounter big tournaments where you can face every deck. If you want mor removel, put it in your SB.
The trouble with Rock is it doesn't usually run enough fetch-lands to reliably trigger Revolt; reliably being relative here. I currently have six fetches in my Rock and I don't really like the idea of more. Reduced life-loss due to fetching and shocking is part of the Rock's appeal in addition to mana-consistency. Without more fetches, I would start with two copies of Push. I haven't decided yet, but eight fetches isn't the worst idea in the world.
I will get one Fatal Push for Delver, maybe a second for the side-board. Two or three feels right for BW tokens. If I were sold on four, I'd go up to ten or eleven fetches. That's not happening.
I believe after looking at the deck Fatal Push will go to 3 MB and 1 SB.
Hidden Stockpile - I'd like to revisit this as it's being overshadowed by Fatal Push at the moment.
What does Modern WB Tokens lack inherently?
Deck manipulation. The ability to filter the CRAP you don't need away.
You don't have to sac a creature all the time, but if you're faced with a Wrath effect and you have extra mana why not use it to make your next turn value? It makes ALL removal even worse against us.
If you're on the defensive and the attacking creature doesn't have Trample you can declare the token as a blocker and then use Hidden Stockpile, Scry 1 and evade an attack. All at once. (If I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.)
I'm not saying this replaces Bitterblossom as BB makes flyers, and is a constant tick ALL the time, but it does compliment it.
I believe after looking at the deck Fatal Push will go to 3 MB and 1 SB.
Hidden Stockpile - I'd like to revisit this as it's being overshadowed by Fatal Push at the moment.
What does Modern WB Tokens lack inherently?
Deck manipulation. The ability to filter the CRAP you don't need away.
You don't have to sac a creature all the time, but if you're faced with a Wrath effect and you have extra mana why not use it to make your next turn value? It makes ALL removal even worse against us.
If you're on the defensive and the attacking creature doesn't have Trample you can declare the token as a blocker and then use Hidden Stockpile, Scry 1 and evade an attack. All at once. (If I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.)
I'm not saying this replaces Bitterblossom as BB makes flyers, and is a constant tick ALL the time, but it does compliment it.
Thoughts?
A sacrifice trigger will make those Fatal Pushes everyone is so keen on playing more reliable, but what does Hidden Stockpile replace? One could certainly test it as a one-of, maybe a two of it it really suits one's fancy. Bitterblossom will compliment Stockpile well by producing sacrifice fodder.
You are correct, one can sacrifice an assigned blocker as you say and get the scry. No token as it's not your turn, but it's worth something. Scrying is not shabby.
I believe after looking at the deck Fatal Push will go to 3 MB and 1 SB.
Hidden Stockpile - I'd like to revisit this as it's being overshadowed by Fatal Push at the moment.
What does Modern WB Tokens lack inherently?
Deck manipulation. The ability to filter the CRAP you don't need away.
You don't have to sac a creature all the time, but if you're faced with a Wrath effect and you have extra mana why not use it to make your next turn value? It makes ALL removal even worse against us.
If you're on the defensive and the attacking creature doesn't have Trample you can declare the token as a blocker and then use Hidden Stockpile, Scry 1 and evade an attack. All at once. (If I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.)
I'm not saying this replaces Bitterblossom as BB makes flyers, and is a constant tick ALL the time, but it does compliment it.
Thoughts?
A sacrifice trigger will make those Fatal Pushes everyone is so keen on playing more reliable, but what does Hidden Stockpile replace? One could certainly test it as a one-of, maybe a two of it it really suits one's fancy. Bitterblossom will compliment Stockpile well by producing sacrifice fodder.
You are correct, one can sacrifice an assigned blocker as you say and get the scry. No token as it's not your turn, but it's worth something. Scrying is not shabby.
My thought on Stockpile was in place of a couple Spectral, lowers the curve in the process which is always beneficial if it works.
He also sees Push not as an 4-of in any list except Faeries and GB Rock. Both decks got a huge buff because there was no efficient T1 removel for them available. Both decks have the advantage not being so weak against Blood Moon decks.
Tokens already has its T1 Removel, so we dont need 4 Push next to them. I totally agree with Craig here. Besides what are your problems with Path? In my Opinion it is just bad against T1 Dork. Against other fast decks the land does not matter. Besides pathing in their turn delays the land bonus for 1 turn. I am going to play 4 Path 1 Cut 2 Push 2 Brutality 2 Inquisition and 3 Thoughtseize in the future. 7 pure removel spells is the limit to this deck. This package seems right to encounter big tournaments where you can face every deck. If you want mor removel, put it in your SB.
How is 7 pure removal spells the limit? Jund runs 16 ways to remove the board.
For starters, Abzan also craved a different form of turn 1 removal for a long time. There is no creature in Modern with the exception of Infect creatures that you want to Path turn 1. This is not just bad against T1 Dork. It's bad against any sort of linear aggro threat where accelerating their mana basically speeds up their game plan or fixes mana for midrange decks. There is a price for going 1-for-2 that is easy to ignore in evaluating Path. With the exception of Affinty and Infect, our deck is usually bad on defense and without a good number of removals there is no easy way to stabilize. Again, it's why Sorin SV is a staple in this deck because we're usually low on life total.
There is no reason to play Murderous Cut. We don't need a 1-mana hard removal that can only be used in the late game. Would I play it against Grixis Control and Titanshift? Yes. But it is not good enough to be in the main. I've already expressed my opinions on Collective Brutality as a mediocre card but that's beating a dead horse. Playing more than 1 copy when it's dead in so many match-ups is a big mistake in my opinion.
I believe after looking at the deck Fatal Push will go to 3 MB and 1 SB.
Hidden Stockpile - I'd like to revisit this as it's being overshadowed by Fatal Push at the moment.
What does Modern WB Tokens lack inherently?
Deck manipulation. The ability to filter the CRAP you don't need away.
You don't have to sac a creature all the time, but if you're faced with a Wrath effect and you have extra mana why not use it to make your next turn value? It makes ALL removal even worse against us.
If you're on the defensive and the attacking creature doesn't have Trample you can declare the token as a blocker and then use Hidden Stockpile, Scry 1 and evade an attack. All at once. (If I'm not mistaken. Correct me if I'm wrong on this.)
I'm not saying this replaces Bitterblossom as BB makes flyers, and is a constant tick ALL the time, but it does compliment it.
Thoughts?
Would BW Token be better with deck manipulation? Yes but we don't have the room. We are built to be like midrange where each individual card quality - with some synergy requirement involved- is supposed to surpass the opponent's in a top deck war.
You are describing situations that take a ton of hoops to go through.
These cards that require a lot of conditions is generally not very good. We can fantasize about how playing a Spectral Procession with Purphoros on the field is a 6 damage to the face but again, it's just bad deck building to consider the good scenarios solely. Think about the situations where Hidden Stockpile is bad. On an empty board or as a late game draw it does nothing. If we are in a position to lose a permanent, this is not something that will stabilize us. You cannot just assume we have an infinite supply of tokens available for fuel. Think about playing this turn 2 against a non-interactive deck - even more embarrassing than turn 2 Bitterblossom.
He also sees Push not as an 4-of in any list except Faeries and GB Rock. Both decks got a huge buff because there was no efficient T1 removel for them available. Both decks have the advantage not being so weak against Blood Moon decks.
Tokens already has its T1 Removel, so we dont need 4 Push next to them. I totally agree with Craig here. Besides what are your problems with Path? In my Opinion it is just bad against T1 Dork. Against other fast decks the land does not matter. Besides pathing in their turn delays the land bonus for 1 turn. I am going to play 4 Path 1 Cut 2 Push 2 Brutality 2 Inquisition and 3 Thoughtseize in the future. 7 pure removel spells is the limit to this deck. This package seems right to encounter big tournaments where you can face every deck. If you want mor removel, put it in your SB.
The trouble with Rock is it doesn't usually run enough fetch-lands to reliably trigger Revolt; reliably being relative here. I currently have six fetches in my Rock and I don't really like the idea of more. Reduced life-loss due to fetching and shocking is part of the Rock's appeal in addition to mana-consistency. Without more fetches, I would start with two copies of Push. I haven't decided yet, but eight fetches isn't the worst idea in the world.
I will get one Fatal Push for Delver, maybe a second for the side-board. Two or three feels right for BW tokens. If I were sold on four, I'd go up to ten or eleven fetches. That's not happening.
Can we stop pretending like Fatal Push is a narrow form of removal without triggering Revolt? This card kills a huge number of targets even without revolt and everything else, Path to Exile handles. Literally look at the top 100 creatures in Modern and look at what it kills without revolt.
I agree with Jongsl5 on this, Fatal Push is too good to not run 4. Nexus (I believe it was them) did the math and it kills 82% of the most played creatures in Modern before Revolt triggers (with Revolt it was something like 95%). Of the "Top 50 Most Played Creatures" in Modern it kills all but 6, most of which don't even require Revolt triggering. Stockpile is probably awful, I might just test it out as a 2 of but I'm not expecting much out of it in general.
I agree with Jongsl5 on this, Fatal Push is too good to not run 4. Nexus (I believe it was them) did the math and it kills 82% of the most played creatures in Modern before Revolt triggers (with Revolt it was something like 95%). Of the "Top 50 Most Played Creatures" in Modern it kills all but 6, most of which don't even require Revolt triggering. Stockpile is probably awful, I might just test it out as a 2 of but I'm not expecting much out of it in general.
That's interesting I'll have to look into it. Honestly, Fatal Push would have been an amazing card even if Revolt was restricted to 3 cmc cards. Being able to kill 4 CMC threats was a bit unnecessary and pushes it to the top, making cards like Terminate and Abrupt Decay have much less of a niche. What's great about Push is that it ignores any sort of counters. Affinity, Infect, Death Shadow Zoo, Merfolk, Elves, etc. all play around with counters that weaken removals like Lightning Bolt, Disfigure, and Dismember.
I agree with Jongsl5 on this, Fatal Push is too good to not run 4. Nexus (I believe it was them) did the math and it kills 82% of the most played creatures in Modern before Revolt triggers (with Revolt it was something like 95%). Of the "Top 50 Most Played Creatures" in Modern it kills all but 6, most of which don't even require Revolt triggering. Stockpile is probably awful, I might just test it out as a 2 of but I'm not expecting much out of it in general.
That's interesting I'll have to look into it. Honestly, Fatal Push would have been an amazing card even if Revolt was restricted to 3 cmc cards. Being able to kill 4 CMC threats was a bit unnecessary and pushes it to the top, making cards like Terminate and Abrupt Decay have much less of a niche. What's great about Push is that it ignores any sort of counters. Affinity, Infect, Death Shadow Zoo, Merfolk, Elves, etc. all play around with counters that weaken removals like Lightning Bolt, Disfigure, and Dismember.
Don't forget it also kills all Creature-Lands without even trying.
Fatal Push seems like a main-deck or not-at-all spell to me. I think some number of copies belong main-deck but I don't think it has high-enough impact for any match-up to be in the side-board. I would prefer mini-sweepers like Flaying Tendrils or Engineered Explosives for generic aggro; silver bullets like Darkblast for Infect or Affinity; or Celestial Flare or Blessed Alliance for Boggles.
If one has Snapcaster Mage or some other recurring ability, then it might be different. I haven't heard the U splash getting much love.
Of course it's all relevant to what one needs for his environment, but I don't see FP in any side-board of mine except maybe Grixis Delver and there only because it seems SO good with Snapcaster but there really isn't room main-deck for more than one copy.
I'm operating under the assumption that FP is going to be a 4-of and Path will round out the removal package with 2-4 copies, probably 3 for me, to start. I would gladly bring in paths from the sb in match ups where fp is dead.
I'm operating under the assumption that FP is going to be a 4-of and Path will round out the removal package with 2-4 copies, probably 3 for me, to start. I would gladly bring in paths from the sb in match ups where fp is dead.
There certainly seems to be room for seven or even more removals; given the typical twenty-three lands, twelve token-sources, six discard and allowing for four Planeswalkers, that leaves eleven slots.
Zealous Persecution still seems a good one-of - at least; I'll probably keep two main-deck. Anguished Unmaking is a pet of mine and I wouldn't play without one main-deck and another side-board. Both of these cards function as removal although ZP is obviously limited in that regard. Cards that do double duty are always welcome in my lists.
That still leaves eight slots. If I can scrounge enough copies for the other decks I want it for and some extra for this one, I'll probably start with three copies of Fatal Push and at least three copies of Path to Exile main-deck. Given the number of Infect players I see regularly, I might leave Darkblast main-deck although that is perhaps a poor choice for most environments. That still leaves one more slot for either a seventh discard; an eighth, dedicated creature-removal, a fifth Planeswalker, or a thirteenth token maker.
If one falls into my lap, I'll test Hidden Stockpile for the flex spot.
Against what kind of decks do you need 4 Paths and 4 Push already maindeck? 50% of the MUs I face this high amount of removel is not even needed. I would rather put 1-2 Pushs in the SB. Against hyper aggro decks we also have Timely helping to come back into the game.
I see that u do not have significant amounts of infect or death's shadow in your local meta. I'm envious.
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Well with the B&R update our matchups just got a lot better. Fatal Push was already going to help against linear aggro to begin with but having Death's Shadow Zoo, Dredge, Infect, and Kiln Fiend slowed down by at least a turn really makes things better. I'd comfortably say that DSZ, Infect, and Kiln Fiend are all definitely favorable now. Dredge is still gonna be on the poor side but I think it's significantly improved.
I would say the 4 big decks that the exile clause is relevant against are Tron, Collected Company, Titanshift, and Grixis Control. Of course there are things like Dredge but any sort of removal is pretty mediocre against them. Otherwise Push kills just as much so it's a reasonable split. But there should still be room for 8 removals in the deck imo.
Hopefully, people will decide it's bad in Standard and the price will drop.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Heehee one mana removal being bad in standard. Heehee.
I already updated my TappedOut list to include Fatal Push. There seems to be a few cards in this set that were designed to be at their worst in limited/standard actually.
The trouble with Rock is it doesn't usually run enough fetch-lands to reliably trigger Revolt; reliably being relative here. I currently have six fetches in my Rock and I don't really like the idea of more. Reduced life-loss due to fetching and shocking is part of the Rock's appeal in addition to mana-consistency. Without more fetches, I would start with two copies of Push. I haven't decided yet, but eight fetches isn't the worst idea in the world.
I will get one Fatal Push for Delver, maybe a second for the side-board. Two or three feels right for BW tokens. If I were sold on four, I'd go up to ten or eleven fetches. That's not happening.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
Hidden Stockpile - I'd like to revisit this as it's being overshadowed by Fatal Push at the moment.
What does Modern WB Tokens lack inherently?
Thoughts?
A sacrifice trigger will make those Fatal Pushes everyone is so keen on playing more reliable, but what does Hidden Stockpile replace? One could certainly test it as a one-of, maybe a two of it it really suits one's fancy. Bitterblossom will compliment Stockpile well by producing sacrifice fodder.
You are correct, one can sacrifice an assigned blocker as you say and get the scry. No token as it's not your turn, but it's worth something. Scrying is not shabby.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
My thought on Stockpile was in place of a couple Spectral, lowers the curve in the process which is always beneficial if it works.
How is 7 pure removal spells the limit? Jund runs 16 ways to remove the board.
For starters, Abzan also craved a different form of turn 1 removal for a long time. There is no creature in Modern with the exception of Infect creatures that you want to Path turn 1. This is not just bad against T1 Dork. It's bad against any sort of linear aggro threat where accelerating their mana basically speeds up their game plan or fixes mana for midrange decks. There is a price for going 1-for-2 that is easy to ignore in evaluating Path. With the exception of Affinty and Infect, our deck is usually bad on defense and without a good number of removals there is no easy way to stabilize. Again, it's why Sorin SV is a staple in this deck because we're usually low on life total.
There is no reason to play Murderous Cut. We don't need a 1-mana hard removal that can only be used in the late game. Would I play it against Grixis Control and Titanshift? Yes. But it is not good enough to be in the main. I've already expressed my opinions on Collective Brutality as a mediocre card but that's beating a dead horse. Playing more than 1 copy when it's dead in so many match-ups is a big mistake in my opinion.
Would BW Token be better with deck manipulation? Yes but we don't have the room. We are built to be like midrange where each individual card quality - with some synergy requirement involved- is supposed to surpass the opponent's in a top deck war.
You are describing situations that take a ton of hoops to go through.
These cards that require a lot of conditions is generally not very good. We can fantasize about how playing a Spectral Procession with Purphoros on the field is a 6 damage to the face but again, it's just bad deck building to consider the good scenarios solely. Think about the situations where Hidden Stockpile is bad. On an empty board or as a late game draw it does nothing. If we are in a position to lose a permanent, this is not something that will stabilize us. You cannot just assume we have an infinite supply of tokens available for fuel. Think about playing this turn 2 against a non-interactive deck - even more embarrassing than turn 2 Bitterblossom.
Can we stop pretending like Fatal Push is a narrow form of removal without triggering Revolt? This card kills a huge number of targets even without revolt and everything else, Path to Exile handles. Literally look at the top 100 creatures in Modern and look at what it kills without revolt.
That's interesting I'll have to look into it. Honestly, Fatal Push would have been an amazing card even if Revolt was restricted to 3 cmc cards. Being able to kill 4 CMC threats was a bit unnecessary and pushes it to the top, making cards like Terminate and Abrupt Decay have much less of a niche. What's great about Push is that it ignores any sort of counters. Affinity, Infect, Death Shadow Zoo, Merfolk, Elves, etc. all play around with counters that weaken removals like Lightning Bolt, Disfigure, and Dismember.
Don't forget it also kills all Creature-Lands without even trying.
If one has Snapcaster Mage or some other recurring ability, then it might be different. I haven't heard the U splash getting much love.
Of course it's all relevant to what one needs for his environment, but I don't see FP in any side-board of mine except maybe Grixis Delver and there only because it seems SO good with Snapcaster but there really isn't room main-deck for more than one copy.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
BGx decks that run LotV typically run six discard spells with an occasional extra, or rarely, two extra in the side-board.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/article.asp?ID=13709&writer=Craig Wescoe&articledate=12-30-2016
Black-White Tokens
A deck by Craig Wescoe
MAINDECK [60]
Creature [2]
2 Blade Splicer
Planeswalker [10]
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Spell [23]
2 Bitterblossom
2 Damnation
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
4 Smuggler's Copter
2 Thoughtseize
1 Wrath of God
Land [25]
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
4 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
1 Tectonic Edge
SIDEBOARD [15]
2 Disenchant
1 Duress
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Flaying Tendrils
2 Fulminator Mage
4 Rest in Peace
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Wrath of God
There certainly seems to be room for seven or even more removals; given the typical twenty-three lands, twelve token-sources, six discard and allowing for four Planeswalkers, that leaves eleven slots.
Zealous Persecution still seems a good one-of - at least; I'll probably keep two main-deck. Anguished Unmaking is a pet of mine and I wouldn't play without one main-deck and another side-board. Both of these cards function as removal although ZP is obviously limited in that regard. Cards that do double duty are always welcome in my lists.
That still leaves eight slots. If I can scrounge enough copies for the other decks I want it for and some extra for this one, I'll probably start with three copies of Fatal Push and at least three copies of Path to Exile main-deck. Given the number of Infect players I see regularly, I might leave Darkblast main-deck although that is perhaps a poor choice for most environments. That still leaves one more slot for either a seventh discard; an eighth, dedicated creature-removal, a fifth Planeswalker, or a thirteenth token maker.
If one falls into my lap, I'll test Hidden Stockpile for the flex spot.
Frenzy-Affinity-Ghost Quarter-Rock-Tokens- RGWPhyrexian Zoo- WVial KnightsStandard:
BW Knights(Rotated)Pioneer: RW Knights - BW Rally Zombies - UW Heroes
Commander:WUG
Jenara, Asura of War- WGSigarda, Host of HeronsCasualties of economicsLegacy: Good-night, sweet prince. Mono-R Burn
I see that u do not have significant amounts of infect or death's shadow in your local meta. I'm envious.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR