If I remember correctly, we had found it to be mediocre at best and useless at worst.
It can't be that bad. The guy narrowly missed making Day 2 with it, which makes it possibly the highest-placing Tokens deck at the event (there might have been one in 33-64, not sure). Considering how well he was controlling his games, I'm definitely curious.
Where can we find his list? It might be what we need to start putting up competitive results again.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
I have played many times alongside another tokens player who runs the Oath of Gideon list and he never does as well as I do, our MB are both very similar except for the Oath/Walker package. Oath is pretty much just an awful RtA that costs more and isn't instant speed.
As for Spectral vs Haunting I was running Haunting for a while and am back to a full 4 Spectral, the curve of Discard, Anthem, Spectral is unbelievable strong and the extra body can and will make a major difference, assuming they don't have an answer it's likely a 3 turn clock vs a 5 turn clock for the same progression with Haunting instead. Add in a turn 4 Sorin/Gideon/Anthem and it's 2 turn clock vs 3 turn.
If I remember correctly, we had found it to be mediocre at best and useless at worst.
It can't be that bad. The guy narrowly missed making Day 2 with it, which makes it possibly the highest-placing Tokens deck at the event (there might have been one in 33-64, not sure). Considering how well he was controlling his games, I'm definitely curious.
Where can we find his list? It might be what we need to start putting up competitive results again.
That's what I'm trying to figure out!
Unfortunately, SCG only published the Top 32 (+ 83rd?) lists, so his list isn't included in the decklists on their site. He only had a couple minutes after his match to talk and my friends went nuts when we found out that both my co-conspirator Thenarus and I made Day 2 (this was my first 2 Day event, so everyone was surprised), so I wasn't able to talk to him as much as I wanted.
He did not play Thoughtseize. He said 4 discard was fine and recommended IoK over it.
He said he ran more Planeswalkers than most Tokens players, but I don't know which ones or the numbers of each.
I noticed he was using Thopter tokens, but I think that was just what he was using for Spirit tokens. I don't think he had actual Thopter producers in his deck, but I don't honestly know what his list was.
He asked me if I had Timely Reinforcements. I told him I had 2 and he said that was good, so I can only assume he was playing 2. I have no hard evidence of this.
I would love to know what this list was as it seemed to be a solid performer in the current meta.
Edit: Checked English and Japanese sites. I couldn't find anything.
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
I would think the 4th snap would be preferable to the second persecution. Also, if you plan on repeated paths, some mainboard land destruction would be good which means dropping the Spectral Processions in favor of midnight haunting. The latter would probably be preferable in your build anyway.
Zealous Persecution pairs well with [[Raise the Alarm]] to trade with a lot of creatures - e.g. Kird Ape becomes a 1/2 vs. a 2/2 token, helping against Zoo on turn 3, and can be flashed back. It's also a removal spell/board wipe vs. two of the premiere decks right now - Infect and Affinity, and can be flashed back by said Snapcaster Mage. Since the deck runs few 1-drop spells, I don't think the fourth Snapcaster is where I would like to be as there will be many games when you don't want to flash back a card on turn 3, and will face having few value plays to make, instead using him as an Ambush Viper. Even against an average goyf (3/4 - Instant, Sorcery, Land, Creature), the goyf becomes a 2/3 and dies to two tokens (taking only one with it). I think two of them is a great number, and they're occupying slots more traditionally given to anthems.
Also as we get into the late game, Snapcaster becomes {1}{U}{W}{W}{W}: Make a 2/1 and three 1/1 flyers. That's actually pretty strong for us.
I don't want to be using Path and then running Tectonic Edge - we need our mana more than most decks, as we have a bunch of three drops and want to continue hitting land drops until turn 5 most often. Besides, Spectral Procession is a significantly stronger card than Midnight Haunting - it's fully half again the power. With a single anthem out, you are talking 4 damage a turn vs 6. That's the difference in beating a goyf in a race or not.
but thank you for the comments. I appreciate the criticism, even if I don't agree with it.
Uh thank you for describing to us what zealous persecution does.
You do realize snapcaster mage + midnight haunting is far more relevant than snap + spectral 90% of the time? If you already cast 1 spectral, that alone is a good chunk of fliers already making the second somewhat redundant since it's a turn 5 play at the earliest. But snap + midnight haunting ensures everything works at instant speed, which is a huge advantage of why snapcaster is so good in the first place.
Haunting vs Procession depends on what deck you are running. If you run a RtA build, you may appreciate having more fliers. I find that with BB builds, the extra flier isn't entirely impactful. Since I splash red for bolt and helix, I also need less blockers than before and I appreciate being able to have more instant speed options. Spectral is better now in a twin-less meta but Midnight Haunting is still extremely relevant against board-wipes and UWx control decks. The tricks you can do with anthems is also a nice bonus. I used to run an additional 1-2 Procession in my Mardu build but found them unnecessary after I adjusted the deck to run more removals and planeswalkers.
Snapcaster mage is a powerful reason to splash blue but Narset is - as discussed previously - just totally unnecessary. It literally does nothing to the board state. Tokens need to DO SOMETHING IMPACTFUL on turn 3-5. They need to stabilize and start putting a clock. Gideon AZ and Sorin SV are perfect for that role. We don't need the card advantage from Narset (which btw, is nowhere guaranteed) because the tokens themselves already serve as a form of card advantage. We need stability on turn 3-5, NOT CARD ADVANTAGE. If you want card advantage, there are a lot of spells that achieve that role for a lower cmc.
If I remember correctly, we had found it to be mediocre at best and useless at worst.
It can't be that bad. The guy narrowly missed making Day 2 with it, which makes it possibly the highest-placing Tokens deck at the event (there might have been one in 33-64, not sure). Considering how well he was controlling his games, I'm definitely curious.
Where can we find his list? It might be what we need to start putting up competitive results again.
That's what I'm trying to figure out!
Unfortunately, SCG only published the Top 32 (+ 83rd?) lists, so his list isn't included in the decklists on their site. He only had a couple minutes after his match to talk and my friends went nuts when we found out that both my co-conspirator Thenarus and I made Day 2 (this was my first 2 Day event, so everyone was surprised), so I wasn't able to talk to him as much as I wanted.
He did not play Thoughtseize. He said 4 discard was fine and recommended IoK over it.
He said he ran more Planeswalkers than most Tokens players, but I don't know which ones or the numbers of each.
I noticed he was using Thopter tokens, but I think that was just what he was using for Spirit tokens. I don't think he had actual Thopter producers in his deck, but I don't honestly know what his list was.
He asked me if I had Timely Reinforcements. I told him I had 2 and he said that was good, so I can only assume he was playing 2. I have no hard evidence of this.
I would love to know what this list was as it seemed to be a solid performer in the current meta.
Sounds like a budget deck to me when I see 3x secure the wastes and oath of gideons.
BW Tokens is one of the few decks that can actually function fairly well in its budget form. As long as you can afford the 4x path and 5-6x discard, you basically have the core of the deck already. All you have to hope for is the right match-ups because even a budget version is going to be favored against the midrange decks.
To make BW Tokens a tier 1-1.5 deck, I think you need to do something entirely different rather than to look at changing a few cards here and there. What I'm currently experimenting with (great success) is taking the same number/type of removal that Mardu Control has while eliminating creatures like Abbot, Dark Confidant, Lavamancer, etc. to make room for tokens. It trades 1 for 1 better than any other deck while making the opponent's spot removal as terrible as possible. The red splash improves the attrition aspect of the deck while also improving the clock and sideboard. The choice to splash is a no-brainer for me especially now that Auriok Champion is not nearly as useful as it used to be, as well as main deck Timely Reinforcements being easily replaceable by Lightning Helix.
Not seeing how replacing $0.50 cards with $12 ones is budget, but I can't say anything definitive one way or the other without knowing what the actual list is.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“Modern has provided us a non-rotating format that is far more accessible than Legacy or Vintage, but still retains many of the qualities that people enjoy in those formats—such as a more stable metagame, the ability to play and tweak the same deck week after week, and simply a much more powerful card pool than Standard.”
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
The top token deck at GP L.A was a GW Token list with no traditional anthems.
The deck ran 10 mana dorks to essentially skip the 2 drop phase (minus 4 copies of Raise the Alarm), the mana dorks also doubled as beaters in the deck. It combined that with Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, 4 copies of New Nissa and 3 copies of new Gideon. What made the deck really work was the 4 copies of Gavony Township. Other than that ran 4 copies of Path and 2 of Dismember. The deck also made good use of Windbrisk Heights.
Just as a reminder before the thread gets sidetracked, GW Tokens is a different deck, and has its own thread in the Developing Competitive section. Discussing it here would be a violation of the rules listed on the first page.
The top token deck at GP L.A was a GW Token list with no traditional anthems.
The deck ran 10 mana dorks to essentially skip the 2 drop phase (minus 4 copies of Raise the Alarm), the mana dorks also doubled as beaters in the deck. It combined that with Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, 4 copies of New Nissa and 3 copies of new Gideon. What made the deck really work was the 4 copies of Gavony Township. Other than that ran 4 copies of Path and 2 of Dismember. The deck also made good use of Windbrisk Heights.
But I don't see how splashing green improves the deck. I expected to see abrupt decay and voice of resurgence.
Playing this deck out mentally, I can see the mana ramps being quite good against creature based decks by providing blockers for Nissa and speeding up our token production. But I also see this deck being very vulnerable to bolt. Don't forget one of the primary reasons to play tokens is to make spot removal very bad against us. I could see voice of resurgence being an exception but the mana dorks run contrary to that plan.
And I don't want to dismiss Nissa off the bat but it looks like a 3 (intensive) mana for a bad anthem most of the time. It is just so easy to kill and its plus one does not seem too relevant.
Gavony township theoretically gives you better reach at the VERY late game than regular tokens. But if we wanted township, we could just as easily splash a bit of green for it rather than dedicate 10 slots to mana dorks. Still, I want to proxy this and playtest the deck.
Alright, so I took my B/W Tokens deck to this past GP LA, and didn't do so hot. I went 1-4, with the only win being against affinity. Here's my match breakdown:
Game 1: Affinity 2-1
I won the dice roll, and kept a pretty good starter hand, so I was able to get some tokens out before he dropped his cranial plating. I was able to grind him out. Second game he had an explosive start, not much I could do to stop him. Third game he kept a one land hand and spewed out 3 Memnites and a Signal Pest turn 1 and passed back to me. I dropped my second land and just main phased Zealous Persecution. Needless to say he was not very happy and couldn't get any traction after that.
Game 2: Merfolk 0-2
I hate this matchup. They go wide as well, but their guys are usually bigger and are unblockable. He just dropped too many lords and I didn't have enough ways to deal with them both games. I made a couple misplays forgetting to play around Aether Vial, but he likely would have won anyway.
Game 3: Elves 0-2
You'd think Elves would be a pretty good matchup for us, but they can be much faster than us. Game 1 I died to a turn 3 kill; nothing much I could do about that. Game 2 was much closer, but I never saw any of my 3 Zealous Persecutions, and he still won. At this point I was feeling pretty bad but decided to keep going and move on to
Game 4: Scapeshift 1-2
This was an interesting matchup, because the guy I played was the guy that won my local store's GPT, so I didn't feel too bad about the loss. He was playing a G/R version with Primeval Titan, which at least gave me a target for my removal. Game 1 we each advanced our game plans, slowly but surely, and I had him on a two turn clock but he pulled out the win. Game 2 I boarded in Leyline of Sanctity which I got in my opening hand, as well as a Thoughtseize, which pulled a Scapeshift out of his hand turn 1. He got way behind and even though he destroyed my Leyline, I still won before he could find a way to deal enough damage to my face. Game 3 was a complete grindfest, because he was pretty fast out of the gates, but I had another Leyline in my opening hand. Whenever I got a board presence, he'd just find a way to get a Mountain and clear my board, but he kept digging for that enchantment removal. Eventually he found it, and we both went into top deck mode, and unfortunately he found his Scapeshift before I could get enough pressure. Ah well.
Game 5: Abzan CoCo 0-2
First game I made a huge mistake not reading cards. I didn't know that that haunt guy gave ALL my creatures -1/-1 when it died, which wiped my board and left me wide open. Eck. Second game he naturally had the turn 3 combo to gain infinite life, then promptly found the Murderous Redcap and killed me. Too fast for me to even do anything about, as I had mulliganed to five and had to keep an iffy hand.
So in conclusion, the only games I really enjoyed were the affinity and Scapeshift matchups, and the rest were just too fast. I ended up siding out Bitterblossom a lot to make room for hate cards, and I almost never drew disruption when I needed it. They always were terrible topdecks. However, Zealous Persecution was always an all star whenever I drew it. I went over and watched the G/W tokens build in the feature match area after I dropped and I thought that it looked pretty appealing. Its faster, has more anthems, and you aren't in danger of drawing dead disruption spells late game. Not really sure if I want to go that route though.
What do you guys think? Did I just hit bad matchups? Oh, and if anyone wants to see the decklist and provide any feedback, that would be much appreciated.
But also in the primer he wrote tokens is considered a WXX deck , so i think we could wrte here to compare the traditional one with the green version , also the new one keep the core deck so why not ?
The core really isn't there, just Souls/Proc, and that deck functions entirely different from the decks in this thread. Also GW Tokens does already have its own primer I believe.
Alright, so I took my B/W Tokens deck to this past GP LA, and didn't do so hot. I went 1-4, with the only win being against affinity. Here's my match breakdown:
Game 1: Affinity 2-1
I won the dice roll, and kept a pretty good starter hand, so I was able to get some tokens out before he dropped his cranial plating. I was able to grind him out. Second game he had an explosive start, not much I could do to stop him. Third game he kept a one land hand and spewed out 3 Memnites and a Signal Pest turn 1 and passed back to me. I dropped my second land and just main phased Zealous Persecution. Needless to say he was not very happy and couldn't get any traction after that.
Game 2: Merfolk 0-2
I hate this matchup. They go wide as well, but their guys are usually bigger and are unblockable. He just dropped too many lords and I didn't have enough ways to deal with them both games. I made a couple misplays forgetting to play around Aether Vial, but he likely would have won anyway.
Game 3: Elves 0-2
You'd think Elves would be a pretty good matchup for us, but they can be much faster than us. Game 1 I died to a turn 3 kill; nothing much I could do about that. Game 2 was much closer, but I never saw any of my 3 Zealous Persecutions, and he still won. At this point I was feeling pretty bad but decided to keep going and move on to
Game 4: Scapeshift 1-2
This was an interesting matchup, because the guy I played was the guy that won my local store's GPT, so I didn't feel too bad about the loss. He was playing a G/R version with Primeval Titan, which at least gave me a target for my removal. Game 1 we each advanced our game plans, slowly but surely, and I had him on a two turn clock but he pulled out the win. Game 2 I boarded in Leyline of Sanctity which I got in my opening hand, as well as a Thoughtseize, which pulled a Scapeshift out of his hand turn 1. He got way behind and even though he destroyed my Leyline, I still won before he could find a way to deal enough damage to my face. Game 3 was a complete grindfest, because he was pretty fast out of the gates, but I had another Leyline in my opening hand. Whenever I got a board presence, he'd just find a way to get a Mountain and clear my board, but he kept digging for that enchantment removal. Eventually he found it, and we both went into top deck mode, and unfortunately he found his Scapeshift before I could get enough pressure. Ah well.
Game 5: Abzan CoCo 0-2
First game I made a huge mistake not reading cards. I didn't know that that haunt guy gave ALL my creatures -1/-1 when it died, which wiped my board and left me wide open. Eck. Second game he naturally had the turn 3 combo to gain infinite life, then promptly found the Murderous Redcap and killed me. Too fast for me to even do anything about, as I had mulliganed to five and had to keep an iffy hand.
So in conclusion, the only games I really enjoyed were the affinity and Scapeshift matchups, and the rest were just too fast. I ended up siding out Bitterblossom a lot to make room for hate cards, and I almost never drew disruption when I needed it. They always were terrible topdecks. However, Zealous Persecution was always an all star whenever I drew it. I went over and watched the G/W tokens build in the feature match area after I dropped and I thought that it looked pretty appealing. Its faster, has more anthems, and you aren't in danger of drawing dead disruption spells late game. Not really sure if I want to go that route though.
What do you guys think? Did I just hit bad matchups? Oh, and if anyone wants to see the decklist and provide any feedback, that would be much appreciated.
I wouldn't feel too bad since those are unfavorable matches. I would practice becoming more familiar with these matches (watching videos help). I splashed red because I kept seeing merfolk, elves, and coco in my meta... it is tough for regular BW tokens.
But also in the primer he wrote tokens is considered a WXX deck , so i think we could wrte here to compare the traditional one with the green version , also the new one keep the core deck so why not ?
The core really isn't there, just Souls/Proc, and that deck functions entirely different from the decks in this thread. Also GW Tokens does already have its own primer I believe.
Playing souls+ procession basically means you are playing BW tokens... You create flyers, apply anthem, beat face etc. The deck at GP LA is more similar to the BW token shell than the typical GW one.
I'm surprised to see a lack of disruption in the abzan token build. This deck already has a hard time interacting with combo decks.
10 mana dorks seem excessive. I mean the deck does mitigate bad top decks due to running a ton of anthems but even ramp decks don't run that many.
How do you all feel about Dismember vs Slaughter pact? I just got my playset of bitterblossom (super excited about this, controls matchs are gonna be a breeze now) and I dont feel like spending more money for the upgrade to Slaughter pact. Opinions?
Also about vault of the archangel, most list run only one, I am have been playing with two over the last 2 months and I think I vastly prefer it, in my opinion is way more relevant drawing a vault versus the ghost quarter.
How do you all feel about Dismember vs Slaughter pact? I just got my playset of bitterblossom (super excited about this, controls matchs are gonna be a breeze now) and I dont feel like spending more money for the upgrade to Slaughter pact. Opinions?
Also about vault of the archangel, most list run only one, I am have been playing with two over the last 2 months and I think I vastly prefer it, in my opinion is way more relevant drawing a vault versus the ghost quarter.
I've always preferred Murderous Cut, I run 4 Path, 1 Cut, 1 Anguished Unmaking main, plus another AU side.
As for Spectral vs Haunting I was running Haunting for a while and am back to a full 4 Spectral, the curve of Discard, Anthem, Spectral is unbelievable strong and the extra body can and will make a major difference, assuming they don't have an answer it's likely a 3 turn clock vs a 5 turn clock for the same progression with Haunting instead. Add in a turn 4 Sorin/Gideon/Anthem and it's 2 turn clock vs 3 turn.
Unfortunately, SCG only published the Top 32 (+ 83rd?) lists, so his list isn't included in the decklists on their site. He only had a couple minutes after his match to talk and my friends went nuts when we found out that both my co-conspirator Thenarus and I made Day 2 (this was my first 2 Day event, so everyone was surprised), so I wasn't able to talk to him as much as I wanted.
I do know the following things:
Edit: Checked English and Japanese sites. I couldn't find anything.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
Uh thank you for describing to us what zealous persecution does.
You do realize snapcaster mage + midnight haunting is far more relevant than snap + spectral 90% of the time? If you already cast 1 spectral, that alone is a good chunk of fliers already making the second somewhat redundant since it's a turn 5 play at the earliest. But snap + midnight haunting ensures everything works at instant speed, which is a huge advantage of why snapcaster is so good in the first place.
Haunting vs Procession depends on what deck you are running. If you run a RtA build, you may appreciate having more fliers. I find that with BB builds, the extra flier isn't entirely impactful. Since I splash red for bolt and helix, I also need less blockers than before and I appreciate being able to have more instant speed options. Spectral is better now in a twin-less meta but Midnight Haunting is still extremely relevant against board-wipes and UWx control decks. The tricks you can do with anthems is also a nice bonus. I used to run an additional 1-2 Procession in my Mardu build but found them unnecessary after I adjusted the deck to run more removals and planeswalkers.
Snapcaster mage is a powerful reason to splash blue but Narset is - as discussed previously - just totally unnecessary. It literally does nothing to the board state. Tokens need to DO SOMETHING IMPACTFUL on turn 3-5. They need to stabilize and start putting a clock. Gideon AZ and Sorin SV are perfect for that role. We don't need the card advantage from Narset (which btw, is nowhere guaranteed) because the tokens themselves already serve as a form of card advantage. We need stability on turn 3-5, NOT CARD ADVANTAGE. If you want card advantage, there are a lot of spells that achieve that role for a lower cmc.
Sounds like a budget deck to me when I see 3x secure the wastes and oath of gideons.
BW Tokens is one of the few decks that can actually function fairly well in its budget form. As long as you can afford the 4x path and 5-6x discard, you basically have the core of the deck already. All you have to hope for is the right match-ups because even a budget version is going to be favored against the midrange decks.
To make BW Tokens a tier 1-1.5 deck, I think you need to do something entirely different rather than to look at changing a few cards here and there. What I'm currently experimenting with (great success) is taking the same number/type of removal that Mardu Control has while eliminating creatures like Abbot, Dark Confidant, Lavamancer, etc. to make room for tokens. It trades 1 for 1 better than any other deck while making the opponent's spot removal as terrible as possible. The red splash improves the attrition aspect of the deck while also improving the clock and sideboard. The choice to splash is a no-brainer for me especially now that Auriok Champion is not nearly as useful as it used to be, as well as main deck Timely Reinforcements being easily replaceable by Lightning Helix.
- Sam Stoddard, “Developing Modern” (June 21, 2013) (by means of Sheridan Lardner, "Fixing Modern: Defining Format Mission (March 16, 2016))
How to Use Spoiler Tags
Starting Over: The Origins of the Mulligan Rule
Practical Approach to Slow Play
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 2: SWARM and TOOLBOX
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 3
THE Guide to Aggro, Part 4
These videos are by MTG Salvation Moderator Lantern!
Introduction to Tempo
Controlling Tempo
Elements of Tempo
Roadblocks to Tempo
How Not To Build A Deck - Tempo
Learn How To Sideboard, Dammit!
Mulligan's Island
The Art of the Mulligan
The Art of the Mulligan: Eight Case Studies
Fundamentals: The Mulligan
Some Mulligan Exercises
A Mulligan Is Worth Three Cards
The Mulligan Debate
Common Sense: The Art of the Mulligan
Who's The Beatdown?
3 Caves of Koilos
3 Eldrazi Temple
2 Fetid Heath
3 Godless Shrine
4 Ghost Quarter
3 Plains
3 Shambling Vent
2 Tectonic Edge
Artifacts (4):
4 Æther Vial
4 Path to Exile
Creatures (29):
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Serra Avenger
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Dismember
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Flooded Strand
6 Island
3 Polluted Delta
3 Steam Vents
3 Sulfur Falls
Creatures (16):
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stormchaser Mage
2 Gut Shot
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Mutagenic Growth
3 Spell Pierce
3 Twisted Image
3 Vapor Snag
Sorceries (8):
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Blood Moon
2 Dispel
1 Forked Bolt
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Repeal
2 Roast
1 Spell Snare
2 Spellskite
1 Vapor Snag
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Clifftop Retreat
1 Copperline Gorge
5 Mountain
3 Sacred Foundry
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
Creatures (14):
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Atarka's Command
4 Boros Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
3 Searing Blaze
Sorceries (8):
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
2 Deflecting Palm
4 Destructive Revelry
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Path to Exile
2 Rending Volley
3 Skullcrack
19 Forest
3 Treetop Village
Creatures (24):
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Dryad Militant
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Experiment One
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Strangleroot Geist
4 Rancor
Instants (10):
3 Aspect of Hydra
4 Vines of Vastwood
3 Dismember
2 Choke
2 Gut Shot
2 Deglamer
2 Feed the Clan
2 Oxidize
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Skylasher
1 Unravel the Æther
The deck ran 10 mana dorks to essentially skip the 2 drop phase (minus 4 copies of Raise the Alarm), the mana dorks also doubled as beaters in the deck. It combined that with Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, 4 copies of New Nissa and 3 copies of new Gideon. What made the deck really work was the 4 copies of Gavony Township. Other than that ran 4 copies of Path and 2 of Dismember. The deck also made good use of Windbrisk Heights.
Yep. But then the "core" isn't there and everyone yells "this isn't a BW Tokens deck."
We're not going to be 1-1.5 any time soon.
Here is the link: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=12485&d=271893
But I don't see how splashing green improves the deck. I expected to see abrupt decay and voice of resurgence.
Playing this deck out mentally, I can see the mana ramps being quite good against creature based decks by providing blockers for Nissa and speeding up our token production. But I also see this deck being very vulnerable to bolt. Don't forget one of the primary reasons to play tokens is to make spot removal very bad against us. I could see voice of resurgence being an exception but the mana dorks run contrary to that plan.
And I don't want to dismiss Nissa off the bat but it looks like a 3 (intensive) mana for a bad anthem most of the time. It is just so easy to kill and its plus one does not seem too relevant.
Gavony township theoretically gives you better reach at the VERY late game than regular tokens. But if we wanted township, we could just as easily splash a bit of green for it rather than dedicate 10 slots to mana dorks. Still, I want to proxy this and playtest the deck.
Game 1: Affinity 2-1
I won the dice roll, and kept a pretty good starter hand, so I was able to get some tokens out before he dropped his cranial plating. I was able to grind him out. Second game he had an explosive start, not much I could do to stop him. Third game he kept a one land hand and spewed out 3 Memnites and a Signal Pest turn 1 and passed back to me. I dropped my second land and just main phased Zealous Persecution. Needless to say he was not very happy and couldn't get any traction after that.
Game 2: Merfolk 0-2
I hate this matchup. They go wide as well, but their guys are usually bigger and are unblockable. He just dropped too many lords and I didn't have enough ways to deal with them both games. I made a couple misplays forgetting to play around Aether Vial, but he likely would have won anyway.
Game 3: Elves 0-2
You'd think Elves would be a pretty good matchup for us, but they can be much faster than us. Game 1 I died to a turn 3 kill; nothing much I could do about that. Game 2 was much closer, but I never saw any of my 3 Zealous Persecutions, and he still won. At this point I was feeling pretty bad but decided to keep going and move on to
Game 4: Scapeshift 1-2
This was an interesting matchup, because the guy I played was the guy that won my local store's GPT, so I didn't feel too bad about the loss. He was playing a G/R version with Primeval Titan, which at least gave me a target for my removal. Game 1 we each advanced our game plans, slowly but surely, and I had him on a two turn clock but he pulled out the win. Game 2 I boarded in Leyline of Sanctity which I got in my opening hand, as well as a Thoughtseize, which pulled a Scapeshift out of his hand turn 1. He got way behind and even though he destroyed my Leyline, I still won before he could find a way to deal enough damage to my face. Game 3 was a complete grindfest, because he was pretty fast out of the gates, but I had another Leyline in my opening hand. Whenever I got a board presence, he'd just find a way to get a Mountain and clear my board, but he kept digging for that enchantment removal. Eventually he found it, and we both went into top deck mode, and unfortunately he found his Scapeshift before I could get enough pressure. Ah well.
Game 5: Abzan CoCo 0-2
First game I made a huge mistake not reading cards. I didn't know that that haunt guy gave ALL my creatures -1/-1 when it died, which wiped my board and left me wide open. Eck. Second game he naturally had the turn 3 combo to gain infinite life, then promptly found the Murderous Redcap and killed me. Too fast for me to even do anything about, as I had mulliganed to five and had to keep an iffy hand.
So in conclusion, the only games I really enjoyed were the affinity and Scapeshift matchups, and the rest were just too fast. I ended up siding out Bitterblossom a lot to make room for hate cards, and I almost never drew disruption when I needed it. They always were terrible topdecks. However, Zealous Persecution was always an all star whenever I drew it. I went over and watched the G/W tokens build in the feature match area after I dropped and I thought that it looked pretty appealing. Its faster, has more anthems, and you aren't in danger of drawing dead disruption spells late game. Not really sure if I want to go that route though.
What do you guys think? Did I just hit bad matchups? Oh, and if anyone wants to see the decklist and provide any feedback, that would be much appreciated.
The core really isn't there, just Souls/Proc, and that deck functions entirely different from the decks in this thread. Also GW Tokens does already have its own primer I believe.
I wouldn't feel too bad since those are unfavorable matches. I would practice becoming more familiar with these matches (watching videos help). I splashed red because I kept seeing merfolk, elves, and coco in my meta... it is tough for regular BW tokens.
Playing souls+ procession basically means you are playing BW tokens... You create flyers, apply anthem, beat face etc. The deck at GP LA is more similar to the BW token shell than the typical GW one.
I'm surprised to see a lack of disruption in the abzan token build. This deck already has a hard time interacting with combo decks.
10 mana dorks seem excessive. I mean the deck does mitigate bad top decks due to running a ton of anthems but even ramp decks don't run that many.
Also about vault of the archangel, most list run only one, I am have been playing with two over the last 2 months and I think I vastly prefer it, in my opinion is way more relevant drawing a vault versus the ghost quarter.
I've always preferred Murderous Cut, I run 4 Path, 1 Cut, 1 Anguished Unmaking main, plus another AU side.