....So unless I'm missing something, we now have access to unconditional black removal that triggers off of our fetchlands and cantrips. This is a pretty big power spike for us. I like this.
Thoughts?
Fatal push is amazing. It is huge for us. It hits manlands and misses our smashers! I will probably run 4 path's and 2 of these main deck. It will help us out against aggro decks.
Fatal push is amazing. It is huge for us. It hits manlands and misses our smashers! I will probably run 4 path's and 2 of these main deck. It will help us out against aggro decks.
Yeah it looks insane, it kills infect and affinity creatures, pumped Swiftspears, merfolk and elf creatures, and can kill anything up to an opposing TKS or Kalitas. This is the low cost removal we needed, and probably is a 2-of in the side at the very least and might deserve 2 maindeck slots, taking the dismember/GftT slot.
....So unless I'm missing something, we now have access to unconditional black removal that triggers off of our fetchlands and cantrips. This is a pretty big power spike for us. I like this.
Thoughts?
Not unconditional, but agreed, holy crap that looks good. A T1 dork/Nacatl/Swiftspear/Guide killer--that's still good in the late game--is gonna be a big deal for Black decks.
Sram's Expertise could be good, but I dunno that it's better than the other things we could be doing with that mana (especially with WW requirement). Might be worth trying out but to me it looks better for a dedicated tokens shell.
Throw 3 tokens AND strangler/reshaper/souls/removal/etc seems prety strong. More than the Black one (-3-3), since we can see what souls can do alone, and we don't even run languish maindeck. However, 4 mana is quite taxing, even more If you plan to run kaladesh liliana.
I'm starting to test a Wall of Reverence, which is a Card that can net us tons of Life through tks and smasher, is a 1/6 Flyer blocker (which stops prety much everything) and something most oponents Will have to deal with asap, drawing(or dividing) away atention from tks himself and smasher. Don't like the passiveness of this angle, but find myself losing a lot to bolts when i finally stabilize, and sorin does nothing Alone tô a board with threats.
Thinking about it, I wonder if the real question is: Does this card make BG Midrange a real thing again? Like maybe even BG Eldrazi Midrange? All of a sudden Blooming Marsh looks amazing if we want to run Stirrings, and maybe W is no longer necessary for Path now that Push is a thing. However Marsh nonbos with Push late game.
We'd be shooting for a 3 CMC play on T2 here, or 4 CMC if we get a Bird and a Temple. We have 14 ETB-untapped sources for either T1 B or G, giving us a solid 90% hit rate, and Stirrings would establish consistency. However this build is more all-in ramp/hand disruption and way less board control, ceding the graveyard and exile zone attacking lines, and the Stranglers, we enjoy in Processors. A T3 Mindbender is within reach here by saccing a T2 Reshaper with a Temple in play. With a Bird in play we could even go
T1: Marsh for Birds
T2: Temple for Reshaper + (Stirrings/IoK/Thoughtseize/Push)
T3: B/G dual for Mindbender, sac Reshaper, flipping (Marsh/Catacombs/Tomb/Basic) for another 1 CMC spell
I like what I see here, but I wonder if this doesn't dilute the power of Push by losing out on cantrips off of relics.
I also wonder why we go into green when we have no early game green Eldrazi. Don't get me wrong, I love world breaker, but is it right to jam a new deck just for this card? I really like the idea here, but I feel that U/B Eldrazi might be better than G/B Eldrazi, because we then have access to skyspawner, Reshaper, AND strangler. Just a thought.
I also feel that we can focus more on a board control deck with Push in our arsenal, and we don't have to take a lot of damage to do it (looking at you, Anguished Unmaking). Testing will tell, but this is a huge boon for us! Let's get to testing.
Remember the main reason we play BW is because of souls, no path. There is nothing on blue or Green that woukd make me wqnt tô lose lingering souls, except for, maybe, birds. But if i wanted to use TQ dork, i'd simply go Bant. I want tô use 4 path and 2 Push main deck, maybe switching anguished tô side, or 1 of the 3 thoughtseize, as it competes with it for 1st turn play
Card seems great. Gives you flexibility to name eldrazi or souls depending on what you have in your hand. The biggest problem with this deck is that is lacks a turn 2 clock like abzan and jund have. I was messing around with smugglers coptor but this seems much better and is a must kill turn 2 drop or else they risk your souls and eldrazi getting out of control. This and Fatal Push should be really nice additions
It is a really interesting 2-drop for this deck. It starts an aggressive curve from the 2nd turn (which Abzan and Jund are just better at than us), and pushes the fact that ours is a tribal deck. Also: first this and then Lingering Souls? Absurd
There are 19 out of 60 cards in our deck that synergize with this thing ...
What are your thoughts?
Would you use it over Reshaper/Displacer? This would lower the eldrazi count to Strangler, TKS and Smasher. I think it would be better on a Blight Herder shell, maybe!
Thinking about it, I wonder if the real question is: Does this card make BG Midrange a real thing again? Like maybe even BG Eldrazi Midrange? All of a sudden Blooming Marsh looks amazing if we want to run Stirrings, and maybe W is no longer necessary for Path now that Push is a thing. However Marsh nonbos with Push late game.
We'd be shooting for a 3 CMC play on T2 here, or 4 CMC if we get a Bird and a Temple. We have 14 ETB-untapped sources for either T1 B or G, giving us a solid 90% hit rate, and Stirrings would establish consistency. However this build is more all-in ramp/hand disruption and way less board control, ceding the graveyard and exile zone attacking lines, and the Stranglers, we enjoy in Processors. A T3 Mindbender is within reach here by saccing a T2 Reshaper with a Temple in play. With a Bird in play we could even go
T1: Marsh for Birds
T2: Temple for Reshaper + (Stirrings/IoK/Thoughtseize/Push)
T3: B/G dual for Mindbender, sac Reshaper, flipping (Marsh/Catacombs/Tomb/Basic) for another 1 CMC spell
Always wanted to abuse Catacomb Sifter... Maybe this could be the perfect home for him - you could sac the token for mana+scry+push and still have mana for a smasher on T3.
Would you use Metallic Mimic over Reshaper/Displacer? This would lower the eldrazi count to Strangler, TKS and Smasher. I think it would be better on a Blight Herder shell, maybe!
Always wanted to abuse Catacomb Sifter... Maybe this could be the perfect home for him - you could sac the token for mana+scry+push and still have mana for a smasher on T3.
Funny, I was also thinking that Metallic Mimic could be great with Herder! But... Processor effects get much, much worse without Path in the deck :(. And I'm pretty sure there is no room for a playset of Relics in a build with both Stirrings and Birds added to the 1-drop slot. (FWIW, I found Herder's token generation unreliable when I was running it anyway). So, I don't think that Catacomb Sifter goes with Mimic AND Herder, unfortunately. Might there be any room for Blisterpod in a deck like this? What about throwing Smuggler's Copter into a deck that scrys at will with Sifter and Scions? BTW I don't actually have any major desire to play BG Eldrazi, more just spitballing here.
Mimic in general looks like it might actually be pretty strong. Maybe it even makes Herder better than Smasher in a BW shell. BUT, it is also a VERY good Bolt target in a deck that specifically plays to make Bolt a bad card.
Regarding Fatal Push: Right now I run 3 fetches, 3 basics, and 2 shocks, but I am considering going to 4 fetches and losing a Caves of Koilos to enable Push more reliably. Karsten's 90% target for a T3 cast is 12 sources, and right now I have 13 lands for C, and also two Mind Stones. I don't need 13 sources of C for a T2 colorless creature, because if I can cast one on T2, it means I must have a Temple in play already. Plus, I have the sense that Caves hurts about as much overall as a fetch plus shock, or pretty close to it. So, I think there may be room to ditch one pain land without nerfing the deck too much. I preordered a playset of Fatal Push as soon as I read about it yesterday, and here is what I am thinking about for changes when AER goes live:
Main: -1 Go for the Throat, -1 Anguished Unmaking, -1 Caves of Koilos, +2 Fatal Push, +1 Marsh Flats
In other news, my recent switch to a Concealed Courtyard from a one-of Isolated Chapel feels really great--having a T1 dual ETB untapped for 0 life has been extremely relevant for me, keeping me out of Bolt range in the late game a couple of times. I went 3-0 (6-0 in games) tonight at a new shop, beating GW CoCo Humans, UR Prowess, and UR Delver/Pyromancer/Burn.
Going up to 4 Marsh Flats sounds like a good idea, would we also want a third Godless Shrine if we do that though? Having 4 flats and only 5 fetch-able lands can get us into trouble, very very rarely I've had a dead Marsh Flats due to having all my fetch-able lands already on the battlefield or in my hand, and I'd be wary of increasing the odds of that happening.
Mimic is a bit underwhelming for me, I think it competes with taplands/relic/mind stone/reshaper on T2 quite a bit, and I'd have a lot of trouble making room for it. Also I don't think it is what we want, because it dies to bolt and push without giving us value. It could work in a Herder shell, and replace some or all copies of Tidehollow as it is a much better late-game draw (usually). Lastly, it's not that often I swarm the board with eldrazi, that usually only happens with T2 reshaper -> T3 TKS -> T3 smasher, most often they kill my eldrazi off and I win off of being able to keep playing them when they run out of targeted removal. Swarming the board usually happens with souls tokens and that line could get blown out by Anger the Gods, which is seeing all kinds of play thanks to dredge.
The BG shell seems decent because of the power of birds and stirrings, but I think if I went green for those two things I'd just go Bant Eldrazi because I see push as a supplement to Path, not a replacement. I still think path is the king. That's why I'm so excited for Push in the B/W shell, because it means we will have more cheap targeted removal for matchups like infect/merfolk/elves/etc. I think Push could give processors a nice bump in its machup winrates with some of the tougher aggro matchups, and obviously it should slow down the format as a whole with many decks playing it. I'm really thinking this card was their answer to the current modern meta, and we won't be seeing much for bannings. If you look at meta % dredge topped at like 10-13% or something over a month ago, and currently the meta is pretty well spread out. the top percentages are: 8%, 8%, 7%, 7%, 6%, and then 5 decks at 5%. That is seriously the best numbers I've seen since I started paying attention to them around 9 months ago.
I ran without a maindeck anguished for a month or maybe more, and I missed it dearly. There's just so many games where a planeswalker, ensnaring bridge, blood moon, whatever else sticks on the board because you don't have that out, and I'm not a fan of giving up free Game 1's. I was definitely thinking the GftT/Dismember slot in the maindeck would now be push, and for the other push slot (I like the idea of 4 path 2 push maindeck), I was thinking either going down to 2 reshaper, or moving Sorin to the side.
I have the same worry about too many fetches and not enough targets. Like you, right now it almost never happens to me, but when it does I find it pretty annoying. I think maybe what will actually happen, though, is that when dead fetch #3 or #4 hits the board, it will be late enough in the game that I won't need the mana as much as I need the ability to kill a 3-4 drop, which Flats would still enable in such a case.
I also agree about cutting Unmaking and losing that catch-all in the main being a concern. Nonetheless I might try it out that way. It seems the the only way to know whether Unmaking really makes sense in the main, overall, is to do some careful long-term data gathering about how often it has come in useful vs. how often the 3 CMC + 3 life has been too high a price. Additionally we would have to keep track of the times when Push got us out of an early jam (like killing a Noble or Birds), or failed us because it couldn't hit a 5+ CMC creature, or get turned on and hit a 3-4 CMC creature.
In your guys' experience with the deck would going down a 1 of Mind Stone to add a 2nd Anguished Unmaking be that big of a deal? I already run 1 mainboard but there are a lot of annoying cards in my local stores meta that I would much like to get off the battlefield that our removal just doesn't target (ie Ensnaring Bridge). So I was wondering if I could get away with just not having the Mind Stone in the deck at all.
Mind Stone is extremely useful as a T3 tks or smasher without Temple, gets you out of a blood moon (Lost some games cause mind Stone was spellsnared and followed by b.moon) and, with fatal push, provide cantrip plus revolt. I wouldnt take it out. Also, drawing two anguisheds hurt a lot a deck with thought seize, 3 fetches, 2 shocks and 4 painlands maindeck. I think 1 mb and 1 sb is the right call
I love me some Mind Stone but have recently been experimenting with cutting it in G2/3 in some matches. I frequently find myself wanting to side in a TON of removal, and something has to go, so Mind Stone it is, some of the time. I still love in maindeck as a functional Temple 5 and 6 that cantrips late game, but I have recently been thinking of going down to one only.
I would not bring in a second Unmaking maindeck, probably, since it is very painful and can be tough to cast at times. Instead I would probably maindeck a Ratchet Bomb as a similar tool with different drawbacks and strengths.
I never used Deckstats and am comfortable with the tapped out.com interface. That's kind of a big sideboard btw, heh.
I love me some Mind Stone but have recently been experimenting with cutting it in G2/3 in some matches. I frequently find myself wanting to side in a TON of removal, and something has to go, so Mind Stone it is, some of the time. I still love in maindeck as a functional Temple 5 and 6 that cantrips late game, but I have recently been thinking of going down to one only.
I would not bring in a second Unmaking maindeck, probably, since it is very painful and can be tough to cast at times. Instead I would probably maindeck a Ratchet Bomb as a similar tool with different drawbacks and strengths.
I never used Deckstats and am comfortable with the tapped out.com interface. That's kind of a big sideboard btw, heh.
Good points. Maybe I'll just leave it the way it is right now and test ratchet bomb a bit if it becomes a problem that I can't remove enough noncreature permanents.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My current modern paper decks with current match records since 02/01/17:
Imo a main deck ratchet bomb would be better than a second anguished in the main, your second anguished should be in the side so it's not a dead draw against aggro/burn/etc.
Spitballing Ideas here, but maybe this (http://mythicspoiler.com/aer/cards/hiddenstocks.html) could help us smooth our draws. Since we have little card draw, maybe scrying is important. Might be a bad idea; not too sure. Making 1/1s and scrying every turn shouldnt be underestimated.
As an aside, I wonder if we can't afford to play more of a control deck with the inclusion of Fatal Push. Maybe we get to cut our Stranglers for Push, and Play Blight Herders in the Main as another haymaker, and a way to go over midrange and control. Our Aggro matchup will almost assuredly be better with this card, but I think we may find that we will be lacking on threats, especially because other decks with be playing Push as well. Herder not only dodges Push, but also makes a bunch of chump Blockers. In this way, our processors also don't compete for value. I think I may try this angle when Push is released, doing something like this:
-4 Strangler, -1 Anguished Unmaking(moved to the side)-1 Go For the Throat
+2 Blight Herder, +4 Fatal Push
Fatal push is amazing. It is huge for us. It hits manlands and misses our smashers! I will probably run 4 path's and 2 of these main deck. It will help us out against aggro decks.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
Yeah it looks insane, it kills infect and affinity creatures, pumped Swiftspears, merfolk and elf creatures, and can kill anything up to an opposing TKS or Kalitas. This is the low cost removal we needed, and probably is a 2-of in the side at the very least and might deserve 2 maindeck slots, taking the dismember/GftT slot.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
I'm starting to test a Wall of Reverence, which is a Card that can net us tons of Life through tks and smasher, is a 1/6 Flyer blocker (which stops prety much everything) and something most oponents Will have to deal with asap, drawing(or dividing) away atention from tks himself and smasher. Don't like the passiveness of this angle, but find myself losing a lot to bolts when i finally stabilize, and sorin does nothing Alone tô a board with threats.
3x Blooming Marsh
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Llanowar Wastes
1x Hissing Quagmire
2x Ghost Quarter
3x Overgrown Tomb
1x Swamp
1x Forest
1x Wastes
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
2x Spellskite
4x Matter Reshaper
2x Endbringer
1x World Breaker
2x Distended Mindbender
4x Fatal Push
2x Dismember
Sorcery (8)
4x Ancient Stirrings
2x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Thoughtseize
I also wonder why we go into green when we have no early game green Eldrazi. Don't get me wrong, I love world breaker, but is it right to jam a new deck just for this card? I really like the idea here, but I feel that U/B Eldrazi might be better than G/B Eldrazi, because we then have access to skyspawner, Reshaper, AND strangler. Just a thought.
I also feel that we can focus more on a board control deck with Push in our arsenal, and we don't have to take a lot of damage to do it (looking at you, Anguished Unmaking). Testing will tell, but this is a huge boon for us! Let's get to testing.
Would you use it over Reshaper/Displacer? This would lower the eldrazi count to Strangler, TKS and Smasher. I think it would be better on a Blight Herder shell, maybe!
Always wanted to abuse Catacomb Sifter... Maybe this could be the perfect home for him - you could sac the token for mana+scry+push and still have mana for a smasher on T3.
Mimic in general looks like it might actually be pretty strong. Maybe it even makes Herder better than Smasher in a BW shell. BUT, it is also a VERY good Bolt target in a deck that specifically plays to make Bolt a bad card.
Regarding Fatal Push: Right now I run 3 fetches, 3 basics, and 2 shocks, but I am considering going to 4 fetches and losing a Caves of Koilos to enable Push more reliably. Karsten's 90% target for a T3 cast is 12 sources, and right now I have 13 lands for C, and also two Mind Stones. I don't need 13 sources of C for a T2 colorless creature, because if I can cast one on T2, it means I must have a Temple in play already. Plus, I have the sense that Caves hurts about as much overall as a fetch plus shock, or pretty close to it. So, I think there may be room to ditch one pain land without nerfing the deck too much. I preordered a playset of Fatal Push as soon as I read about it yesterday, and here is what I am thinking about for changes when AER goes live:
Mimic is a bit underwhelming for me, I think it competes with taplands/relic/mind stone/reshaper on T2 quite a bit, and I'd have a lot of trouble making room for it. Also I don't think it is what we want, because it dies to bolt and push without giving us value. It could work in a Herder shell, and replace some or all copies of Tidehollow as it is a much better late-game draw (usually). Lastly, it's not that often I swarm the board with eldrazi, that usually only happens with T2 reshaper -> T3 TKS -> T3 smasher, most often they kill my eldrazi off and I win off of being able to keep playing them when they run out of targeted removal. Swarming the board usually happens with souls tokens and that line could get blown out by Anger the Gods, which is seeing all kinds of play thanks to dredge.
The BG shell seems decent because of the power of birds and stirrings, but I think if I went green for those two things I'd just go Bant Eldrazi because I see push as a supplement to Path, not a replacement. I still think path is the king. That's why I'm so excited for Push in the B/W shell, because it means we will have more cheap targeted removal for matchups like infect/merfolk/elves/etc. I think Push could give processors a nice bump in its machup winrates with some of the tougher aggro matchups, and obviously it should slow down the format as a whole with many decks playing it. I'm really thinking this card was their answer to the current modern meta, and we won't be seeing much for bannings. If you look at meta % dredge topped at like 10-13% or something over a month ago, and currently the meta is pretty well spread out. the top percentages are: 8%, 8%, 7%, 7%, 6%, and then 5 decks at 5%. That is seriously the best numbers I've seen since I started paying attention to them around 9 months ago.
I ran without a maindeck anguished for a month or maybe more, and I missed it dearly. There's just so many games where a planeswalker, ensnaring bridge, blood moon, whatever else sticks on the board because you don't have that out, and I'm not a fan of giving up free Game 1's. I was definitely thinking the GftT/Dismember slot in the maindeck would now be push, and for the other push slot (I like the idea of 4 path 2 push maindeck), I was thinking either going down to 2 reshaper, or moving Sorin to the side.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
I also agree about cutting Unmaking and losing that catch-all in the main being a concern. Nonetheless I might try it out that way. It seems the the only way to know whether Unmaking really makes sense in the main, overall, is to do some careful long-term data gathering about how often it has come in useful vs. how often the 3 CMC + 3 life has been too high a price. Additionally we would have to keep track of the times when Push got us out of an early jam (like killing a Noble or Birds), or failed us because it couldn't hit a 5+ CMC creature, or get turned on and hit a 3-4 CMC creature.
Dragon Stompy - R 11-6-0
Ponza - RG 8-4-0
Tron - BG 1-2-0
Naya Burn - WRG 2-4-0
Spirits - UW2-2-0
Dragons - R
I would not bring in a second Unmaking maindeck, probably, since it is very painful and can be tough to cast at times. Instead I would probably maindeck a Ratchet Bomb as a similar tool with different drawbacks and strengths.
I never used Deckstats and am comfortable with the tapped out.com interface. That's kind of a big sideboard btw, heh.
Good points. Maybe I'll just leave it the way it is right now and test ratchet bomb a bit if it becomes a problem that I can't remove enough noncreature permanents.
Dragon Stompy - R 11-6-0
Ponza - RG 8-4-0
Tron - BG 1-2-0
Naya Burn - WRG 2-4-0
Spirits - UW2-2-0
Dragons - R
Edit: didn't see someone else already said this
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
As an aside, I wonder if we can't afford to play more of a control deck with the inclusion of Fatal Push. Maybe we get to cut our Stranglers for Push, and Play Blight Herders in the Main as another haymaker, and a way to go over midrange and control. Our Aggro matchup will almost assuredly be better with this card, but I think we may find that we will be lacking on threats, especially because other decks with be playing Push as well. Herder not only dodges Push, but also makes a bunch of chump Blockers. In this way, our processors also don't compete for value. I think I may try this angle when Push is released, doing something like this:
-4 Strangler, -1 Anguished Unmaking(moved to the side)-1 Go For the Throat
+2 Blight Herder, +4 Fatal Push
Let me know what you think