I got your message Deaddrift. I'm impressed with the concept. I have an eternal fixation with RW control but I think this deck has good potential. Keep grinding. Don't get discouraged.
@deaddrift - how did you beat ub mill? im having trouble with that matchup and i even play leyline of sanctity in the side (maybe ive just drawn poorly or select the wrong cards to discard from them)
I would like to hear the under and over performers during your night and what types of deck you played against. If everybody had a similar format it would be easy to compile a list to determine the best 60 cards for the deck and how to fine tune the deck for specific metas. Something of the form:
Deck name (type of deck: aggro, midrange, brew, etc.)
Record
Over performers (OP) :: Thought-knot
Under performers (UP) ::
Notes :: A one or two sentence summary explaining the matchup. Something along the lines of if anybody had any bad draws, somebody mulled down to 3, I couldn't find the right removal or sideboard cards, etc.
Then have the deck list within spoiler tags.
Well alrighty then! From Friday:
Affinity (creature-aggro)
2-1 [1-0]
SIDE IN: Stony Silence x2, Ratchet Bomb x2, Pithing Needle x2, Anguished Unmaking x1 / SIDE OUT: Go for the Throat x1, Relic x4, Thoughtseize x2
OP: Lingering Souls, Blight Herder, Ratchet Bomb
UP: Go for the Throat, Strangler Notes: I was on the draw G1. Ratchet Bomb is a good sweeper but nonbos with Stony Silence; since I drew Bomb but not Stony it worked out OK. Lingering Souls is always good against Affinity but Herder saved the day after an unexpected Blood Moon; it processed two Pathed creatures and gave C for my Seers and Smasher in game three.
UB Mill (spell-aggro/brew)
2-0 [2-0]
SIDE IN: Surgical Extraction x3, Stony Silence x2, Ratchet Bomb x2, Pithing Needle x2, Anguished Unmaking x1 / SIDE OUT: n/a
OP: Lingering Souls, Sorin
UP: Path, Strangler Notes: I was on the draw G1. When I side against Mill I don't remove cards, I simply add the ones that might be useful. This guy was running a sub-optimized budget brew with no Ensnaring Bridge, and he was an easy beat. In general the match is a race where we want the fastest possible damage output. A tuned Mill deck needs one or both of two specific cards to beat us: Crypt Incursion and Ensnaring Bridge. Both should be top targets for Thoughtseize/IoK/TKS. Ratchet Bomb and Unmaking can hit Bridge, and leaving Relic plus one mana active is mandatory to protect against Incursion.
Jeskai Control (control)
2-0 [3-0]
SIDE IN: Unmaking x1, Pithing Needle x2, Ratchet Bomb x2 / SIDE OUT: Go for the Throat x1, Sorin x1, Strangler x2
OP: Relic of Progenitus, Blight Herder, Lingering Souls, Reality Smasher, Thoughtseize, Ghost Quarter
UP: Go for the Throat, Surgical Extraction Notes: I was on the draw G1. The above is an example of a post-SB 61 from me, which I do pretty regularly. I was siding for Nahiri but it turns out he didn't use her. Relic on my T1 both games was brutal for him. Strangler hit an Ancestral Vision, killing itself, in G1; and Herder hit two Ancestral Visions in game 2. Resolved Smashers were able to swing through to close both games. Thoughtseize on his Elspeth, Sun's Champion was huge--that card is a huge beating once it lands. I was also able to see and then play around his in-hand Izzet Staticaster when I took his Elspeth, which was also crucial. Staticaster is very, very bad for decks that play as many tokens as we do. Watch out for one (rarely two) from the side in every G2/3 against any URx build.
Blue Moon (control)
1-1-1 [3-0-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3, Unmaking x1, Pithing Needle x2 / SIDE OUT: Sorin, Go for the Throat, Strangler x2, Smasher x1
OP: Mind Stone, Blight Herder, his Jace, Architect of Thought
UP: Lingering Souls (see notes), Surgical Extraction Notes: I was on the draw G1. I easily won G1 with Herder plus tokens; despite being locked to three lands until T8, my Mind Stone allowed me mana to cast my fatties. I am a huge believer in Mind Stone by now. In G2--which I lost after Thoughtseizing him on T1, taking one of his 3 in-hand Remands and then Extracting the other two--I had seven lands on board but no source for C. Frustrating. In both G2 and G3, his one-of Jace was able to +1 every turn and shut down my otherwise-awesome-in-this-kind-of-match Lingering Souls. That one planeswalker was able to win him the one game, and then draw the match for him. If I play this guy again I will bring in Ratchet Bomb for his planeswalkers for sure. I could have sided and played better in this match.
Grixis Delver (creature-aggro/control)
2-1 [4-0-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3, Unmaking x1 / SIDE OUT: Sorin x1, Smasher x2
OP: Relic, Thoughtseize
UP: his Snapcaster Notes: I was on the play G1 for once! T1 Relic in all three games was really bad for him. I don't have much in the way of notes for this match.
Thoughts: I recently decided to go back to Anguished Unmaking over Oblivion Ring because instant speed is so good and O-Ring is vulnerable to removal. I also took out my experimental Zealous Persecution from the side, replacing it with a second Pithing Needle for Tron, Affinity, and manlands/planeswalkers in general. Sometimes if you're lucky against a newer player you can name a fetch land with it, which is always good fun. The sideboard of my deck is always in a state of mild flux as I swap one or two cards around for something else to try each week or so.
I over-sided in Extraction vs. the blue Snapcaster decks tonight. It is pretty good in these matches but was dead a couple times for me tonight. I was frustrated in the Blue Moon match because it was eminently winnable but I didn't side correctly or play as well as I could have.
This is the first of what might be several posts with thoughts about specific matchups for our deck. Eventually I intend to take them and update the matchups guide section of the Primer.
I encourage everyone with experience in the relevant matches to offer their own perspective too. I'm sure to forget some important ideas and not know some tricks that should be mentioned. Also note that just because a card doesn't get mentioned in a match doesn't mean it's irrelevant, just that I thought it bore no special mention (or I forgot about it). Adding more incentive to chime in, there are some options like Sea Gate Wreckage and Eldrazi Displacer that I don't have enough experience with to comment on.
Highly favorable for Processors.
Good Cards: Lingering Souls, all the Eldrazi creatures, Relic, Unmaking, Ghost Quarter, Pithing Needle, possibly Ratchet Bomb (at 2 for Bob, Goyf, Ooze, etc., at 3 for Lili).
Bad Cards: Mind Stone.
Cards to Watch Out For: Kalitas, Kolaghan's Command, Maelstrom Pulse, Ooze (targeting Lingering Souls), plus Damnation and/or Night of Souls' Betrayal out of the side, Olivia Voldaren out of the side, Fulminator Mage out of the side.
Strategy/Tricks: Matches are grindy; be ready to chump their early threats. Use Relic to shrink Goyf when it hurts them the most, and save targeted removal for Ooze and Kalitas if you can. (Watch out for instant-speed options they can use to grow Goyf bigger after you crack Relic.) Relic can also steal K Command targets but use careful timing so they can't respond to your activation/crack of Relic by casting K Command and resolving it first. Look for Spirit tokens to do lots of work in this match. Respect Raging Ravine's ability to quickly close late games.
Highly favorable for Processors.
Good Cards: Lingering Souls, most Eldrazi creatures, Relic, Unmaking, Ghost Quarter, Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb, Damnation, Extraction (for their Souls).
Bad Cards: Strangler isn't great.
Cards to Watch Out For: Kalitas, Siege Rhino (because trample). Their Lingering Souls is very inconvenient for us. From the side, be aware of Damnation and Fulminator.
Strategy/Tricks: Similar to Jund. Extract their Souls if you can--bonus points if you get it AFTER processing one or two copies back into the yard to power Herder or Strangler. Save Path etc. for Rhino, Ooze, and Kalitas. Kalitas is a lot less good for BGw than BGr though.
Favorable for Processors.
Good Cards: Cavern of Souls, Lingering Souls, all of our Eldrazi, Thoughtseize (better than IoK here), Relic, Ghost Quarter, Shambling Vent, Unmaking, Pithing Needle, Ratchet Bomb
Bad Cards: Sorin, Go for the Throat, Mind Stone. Throat and Stone are our only targets for Spell Snare so look out for that play.
Cards to Watch Out For: Snapcaster Mage, all builds; Celestial Colonnade, all builds; Geist of St. Traft, all builds; sweeper effects (from all, but esp. from UW control); Sphinx's Revelation; Elspeth, Sun's Champion; and Izzet Staticaster from the side.
Strategy/Tricks: Against any control-style builds it is a good idea to land a threat as early as possible and then sandbag other threats until the first is removed, which it will be. Watch out for sweeper effects and don't over extend into them. Lingering Souls and Blight Herder are both great against Mana Leak and Remand. Smasher and Seer are both great for different reasons against these decks. An open Relic can be cracked in response to an Emmy shuffle trigger, exiling it, ha ha. Relic should also be used aggressively for Snapcaster Mage targets. Ratchet Bomb can come in G2/3 for both Geist and Nahiri (again, watching for Spell Snare). I rarely side out Path in this match, because it is very good against Colonnade which is a major win-con for all these decks. Smasher is a great Nahiri-removal tool. Strangler can kill Restoration Angel if she blocked a Spirit earlier in the turn. Shambling Vent dodges Wraths and Verdicts.
Highly Favorable for Processors.
Good Cards: Cavern of Souls, Relic, Lingering Souls, Blight Herder.
Strategy/Tricks: Against any control-style builds it is a good idea to land a threat as early as possible, and then sandbag other threats until the first is removed. Against all counterspell-playing blue decks, use Lingering Souls and Blight Herder to apply spot-removal- and counterspell-resistant pressure. Relic is amazing against GDD, Snappy and K Command. Young Pyro can get ugly if not answered quickly, so prioritize removing it ASAP. Strangler can kill Kalitas if he blocked a Scion earlier in the turn. Kalitas is dangerous and should be highly prioritized for removal.
Highly favorable for Processors.
Good Cards: Path, Go for the Throat, Unmaking, Strangler, Lingering Souls, Blight Herder, Ghost Quarter, Thoughtseize/IoK/Thought-Knot Seer, Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle
Bad Cards: Sorin, Relic
Cards to Watch Out For: Blighted Agent is by far the best threat against us for UG Infect while Phyrexian Crusader fills that role for the BG variant. Spellskite is a danger too as it protects their guys.
Strategy/Tricks: Play slow and conservatively. ALWAYS, ALWAYS leave a guaranteed block against Infect. I have lost to a 14-regular-damage swing from a Spellskite before in this match. Relic is bad except that it de-powers Become Immense and sets up Strangler removal. Be aware that Apostle's Blessing does not protect their guy from Strangler or from most of our blockers. Spirit tokens will do amazing work but are no good against BG's Crusader. It is best to cast removal spells on our own main phase or after combat on their turn and make sure you bluff Path by leaving up W and keeping a card in hand, because this will slow them down a few turns if they can't Probe you. Pithing Needle can name a Nexus or Pendlehaven. Look for Lingering Souls, Ghost Quarter, and targeted removal aggressively once the opponent's deck archetype is known, and be prepared to mull for these necessary tools. Go for the Throat cannot be redirected to Spellskite.
Bad Cards: Thoughtseize, Thought-Knot Seer, Relic of Progenitus, Go for the Throat
Cards to Watch Out For: Arcbound Ravager, Steel Overseer, Cranial Plating, Ensoul Artifact, rarely Day's Undoing.
Strategy/Tricks: Their best threats are Arcbound Ravager, Cranial Plating, and Steel Overseer. All three are shut down by Stony Silence and Pithing Needle though, and all three (plus Vault Skirge) are CMC=2 for Ratchet Bomb. Both Ravager and Plating have the potential to make any single unblocked attacker lethal, so play conservatively around these threats. Ravager can also neuter lifegain from Sorin or Vault, by saccing the creatures you thought you'd hit. Eldrazi Displacer is very good against Ravager and somewhat less amazing against Plating-bearers. Ratchet Bomb can be an early game blowout at 0 but is often better in the mid game at 2. Thoughtseize/IoK are great on T1 but usually quite bad later on, and should be considered as good side-out candidates. TKS is usually too slow to disrupt Affinity. Lingering Souls, Ghost Quarter, and targeted removal, plus the above sideboard cards, are extremely important and should be looked for when considering opening hands once you know what you are facing. Mull aggressively for these.
@deaddrift - how did you beat ub mill? im having trouble with that matchup and i even play leyline of sanctity in the side (maybe ive just drawn poorly or select the wrong cards to discard from them)
I would like to hear the under and over performers during your night and what types of deck you played against. If everybody had a similar format it would be easy to compile a list to determine the best 60 cards for the deck and how to fine tune the deck for specific metas. Something of the form:
Deck name (type of deck: aggro, midrange, brew, etc.)
Record
Over performers (OP) :: Thought-knot
Under performers (UP) ::
Notes :: A one or two sentence summary explaining the matchup. Something along the lines of if anybody had any bad draws, somebody mulled down to 3, I couldn't find the right removal or sideboard cards, etc.
Then have the deck list within spoiler tags.
Well alrighty then! From Friday:
Affinity (creature-aggro)
2-1 [1-0]
SIDE IN: Stony Silence x2, Ratchet Bomb x2, Pithing Needle x2, Anguished Unmaking x1 / SIDE OUT: Go for the Throat x1, Relic x4, Thoughtseize x2
OP: Lingering Souls, Blight Herder, Ratchet Bomb
UP: Go for the Throat, Strangler Notes: I was on the draw G1. Ratchet Bomb is a good sweeper but nonbos with Stony Silence; since I drew Bomb but not Stony it worked out OK. Lingering Souls is always good against Affinity but Herder saved the day after an unexpected Blood Moon; it processed two Pathed creatures and gave C for my Seers and Smasher in game three.
UB Mill (spell-aggro/brew)
2-0 [2-0]
SIDE IN: Surgical Extraction x3, Stony Silence x2, Ratchet Bomb x2, Pithing Needle x2, Anguished Unmaking x1 / SIDE OUT: n/a
OP: Lingering Souls, Sorin
UP: Path, Strangler Notes: I was on the draw G1. When I side against Mill I don't remove cards, I simply add the ones that might be useful. This guy was running a sub-optimized budget brew with no Ensnaring Bridge, and he was an easy beat. In general the match is a race where we want the fastest possible damage output. A tuned Mill deck needs one or both of two specific cards to beat us: Crypt Incursion and Ensnaring Bridge. Both should be top targets for Thoughtseize/IoK/TKS. Ratchet Bomb and Unmaking can hit Bridge, and leaving Relic plus one mana active is mandatory to protect against Incursion.
Jeskai Control (control)
2-0 [3-0]
SIDE IN: Unmaking x1, Pithing Needle x2, Ratchet Bomb x2 / SIDE OUT: Go for the Throat x1, Sorin x1, Strangler x2
OP: Relic of Progenitus, Blight Herder, Lingering Souls, Reality Smasher, Thoughtseize, Ghost Quarter
UP: Go for the Throat, Surgical Extraction Notes: I was on the draw G1. The above is an example of a post-SB 61 from me, which I do pretty regularly. I was siding for Nahiri but it turns out he didn't use her. Relic on my T1 both games was brutal for him. Strangler hit an Ancestral Vision, killing itself, in G1; and Herder hit two Ancestral Visions in game 2. Resolved Smashers were able to swing through to close both games. Thoughtseize on his Elspeth, Sun's Champion was huge--that card is a huge beating once it lands. I was also able to see and then play around his in-hand Izzet Staticaster when I took his Elspeth, which was also crucial. Staticaster is very, very bad for decks that play as many tokens as we do. Watch out for one (rarely two) from the side in every G2/3 against any URx build.
Blue Moon (control)
1-1-1 [3-0-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3, Unmaking x1, Pithing Needle x2 / SIDE OUT: Sorin, Go for the Throat, Strangler x2, Smasher x1
OP: Mind Stone, Blight Herder, his Jace, Architect of Thought
UP: Lingering Souls (see notes), Surgical Extraction Notes: I was on the draw G1. I easily won G1 with Herder plus tokens; despite being locked to three lands until T8, my Mind Stone allowed me mana to cast my fatties. I am a huge believer in Mind Stone by now. In G2--which I lost after Thoughtseizing him on T1, taking one of his 3 in-hand Remands and then Extracting the other two--I had seven lands on board but no source for C. Frustrating. In both G2 and G3, his one-of Jace was able to +1 every turn and shut down my otherwise-awesome-in-this-kind-of-match Lingering Souls. That one planeswalker was able to win him the one game, and then draw the match for him. If I play this guy again I will bring in Ratchet Bomb for his planeswalkers for sure. I could have sided and played better in this match.
Grixis Delver (creature-aggro/control)
2-1 [4-0-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3, Unmaking x1 / SIDE OUT: Sorin x1, Smasher x2
OP: Relic, Thoughtseize
UP: his Snapcaster Notes: I was on the play G1 for once! T1 Relic in all three games was really bad for him. I don't have much in the way of notes for this match.
Thoughts: I recently decided to go back to Anguished Unmaking over Oblivion Ring because instant speed is so good and O-Ring is vulnerable to removal. I also took out my experimental Zealous Persecution from the side, replacing it with a second Pithing Needle for Tron, Affinity, and manlands/planeswalkers in general. Sometimes if you're lucky against a newer player you can name a fetch land with it, which is always good fun. The sideboard of my deck is always in a state of mild flux as I swap one or two cards around for something else to try each week or so.
I over-sided in Extraction vs. the blue Snapcaster decks tonight. It is pretty good in these matches but was dead a couple times for me tonight. I was frustrated in the Blue Moon match because it was eminently winnable but I didn't side correctly or play as well as I could have.
This is so beautiful! I like to read game reports but it is so nice to have a decent format where people can extract the information they want from each game without having to read through a whole paragraph. I think if everybody in this thread follows the same format, it will really help tune the deck. I am excited to read many, many reports to see how our deck actually preforms against other decks baised on many matchups of every skill level. I feel that the reports currently reported here are by people who are very experienced with the BW color combination in modern and that their sideboard information or by game matchups will make a better primer and encourage more people to play BW in modern.
Questions:
vs. affinity :: Why didn't you bring in damnation? Sorin is slow and can be sideboarded.
I agree, blood moon is unexpected. But usually against any deck that runs red I try to play around it as much as possible game 2. Plays such as cracking marsh flats for a basic and so on. I do this since blood moon absolutely wrecks this deck right now.
You can probably cut rest for the weary from your sideboard. The combination of wasteland strangler + thoughtknot really helps the burn matchup and gaining 8 life is not really needed when our creatures are just much larger than theirs.
@Deadrift, I chime in from time to time since I have the deck partially built. I like to hear it is still doing well too. Keep on posting results and it will encourage me to finish getting the rest of cards. Bought one pack of SOI and was stoked I pulled a foil Anguished Unmaking too.
This deck definitely flies under the radar quite well. It doesn't show up in results from what I can tell but can still hold its own to the field. The only other Eldrazi decks out there are EldraziTron and Bant Eldrazi. Both of which are very different. I would say, keep playing until you keep losing 0-4!
I'm missing Reality Smashers, Matter Reshapers, and some sideboard cards (probably $50 worth?) so I proxy em.
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I beat Affinity, UB mill, Jeskai Control (no Nahiri), and Grixis Delver, and I tied with Blue Moon. I have written a lot of tourney reports for this thread over the past couple of months, not so sure that people really find any benefit from them though.
I am happy to write reports if some readers like them enough to let me know. Would side in/out notes be useful? More detail about key cards? But maybe just coming by every few days to report more reliable success with the build--which is what I continue to find at my LGS--isn't really the most productive way to use our time and bandwidth.
Anyway, still super surprised that this deck is not on anyone's radar. I'm making like $20-30/week in credit at my local FNM type events. I'm convinced that the new EMN cards will further shift the overall near-term meta towards graveyard utility, making our Relics (etc.) even better. Might as well enjoy riding this dark horse as far as we can, I suppose.
I love read your reports, i only can play a small local metal and some friends in Modern/legacy casualgames and is good to see reports from bigger tournaments. Thx for the hard work
This is so beautiful! I like to read game reports but it is so nice to have a decent format where people can extract the information they want from each game without having to read through a whole paragraph. I think if everybody in this thread follows the same format, it will really help tune the deck. I am excited to read many, many reports to see how our deck actually preforms against other decks baised on many matchups of every skill level. I feel that the reports currently reported here are by people who are very experienced with the BW color combination in modern and that their sideboard information or by game matchups will make a better primer and encourage more people to play BW in modern.
Questions:
vs. affinity :: Why didn't you bring in damnation? Sorin is slow and can be sideboarded.
I agree, blood moon is unexpected. But usually against any deck that runs red I try to play around it as much as possible game 2. Plays such as cracking marsh flats for a basic and so on. I do this since blood moon absolutely wrecks this deck right now.
You can probably cut rest for the weary from your sideboard. The combination of wasteland strangler + thoughtknot really helps the burn matchup and gaining 8 life is not really needed when our creatures are just much larger than theirs.
Thanks, herfs. (And thanks Gonzo_Neo and thewrush, too.) Regarding your questions:
I should have brought in Damnation, not sure what that brain fart is all about. But Sorin is not terrible either. I'd probably take out the other two Thoughtseizes first.
I agree about the danger of Blood Moon and the need to play around it, but I have to admit I didn't anticipate it from Affinity. I wrote a couple of thoughts about Blood Moon vs. Processors at the bottom of this post, if you're interested.
I don't run IoK because I only have room for four hand disruption sorceries and have had Inquisition miss the 4+ CMC card I needed to hit, thereby losing me the match, too many times. I have made a lot of decisions in this deck about maximizing my versatility, even at the cost of life, or tempo, or some other consideration, and I feel strongly that Thoughtseize is where I want to be.
Like bad_shot, I use Rest to help stabilize and turn the corner against fast aggro as well as for Burn. It has been several months since I played against a capable Burn player with a fully-tuned deck, but when I do, I feel certain I will be very happy I have three lifegain cards in the side.
I went 3-1 for 10th of 33 last night, having the worst tiebreakers of all the 9 point holders.
vs. Elves: (creature-aggro/brew)
2-1 [1-0]
SIDE IN: Ratchet Bomb x2, Damnation x2, Unmaking x1, Timely Reinforcements x1 / SIDE OUT: Relic x4, Thoughtseize x1
OP: Smasher, Souls
UP: n/a Notes: Not much to tell here, I lost G! due to a poor keep decision and never got to cast my spells, but G2/3 were easy wins for me against a not very competitive brew.
vs. Taking Turns: (control)
1-2 [1-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3, Unmaking x1, and Ratchet Bomb x2 / SIDE OUT: Sorin x1, Go for the Throat x1, Blight Herder x3
OP: his extra turns
UP: Thoughtseize/Thought-Knot Seer Notes: Ugh, f--- this deck. Only the second time I've played it, thank god. If you can't take them off card draw then you may find that like me you can't get them to 0 before they go off. The one game I won was due to a great start with T1 Thoughtseize, T3 TKS, and T4 Smasher.
vs: Mono-W Tokens/Soul Sisters (creature-aggro/brew)
2-1 [2-1]
SIDE IN: Unmaking x1, Ratchet Bomb x2, Extraction x3, Damnation x2 / SIDE OUT: Herder x3, Relic x4
OP: Unmaking, Thoughtseize, TKS, Smasher
UP: Path, Go for the Throat Notes: He took game one after landing: 3 Honor of the Pure; 1 Intangible Virtue; and 1 Path of Bravery, making his topdecked Spectral Procession a 3 mana "gain three vigilant flying 6/6's. You gain 3 life when they attack." I was able to fight through three Paths in G2 with TKS and Smasher (trample is so good against tokens) and in G3 he kept a one-land hand and didn't draw his drops.
vs. Naya Allies: (creature-aggro)
2-1 [3-1]
SIDE IN: Ratchet Bomb x2, Damnation x2, Timely Reinforcements x1, Rest for the Weary x2 / SIDE OUT: Relic x4, Herder x3
OP: Lingering Souls, Thoughtseize, TKS, Timely Reinforcements, Ratchet Bomb, his Kabira Evangel
UP: nothing I can recall Notes: Fast aggro is always demanding and stabilizing ASAP is always important. In G1 I ceded on my T3 because I was looking at lethal and had only 3 mana with a hand full of Seer, Smasher, and Herder only. For G2/3 I was able to play a little lower to the ground with Souls, and resolve many Thoughtseizes to control his speed and explosiveness, always taking his next-turn best play when I saw his hand. Targeted removal is very important in this match, but I was unable to cast Unmaking due to a low life total, once, in G2.
Deck was the exact same as Friday.
Thoughts: Man this deck sides well. Ratchet Bomb is so slow but it, like so many other cards in the deck, has both power and versatility despite its significant tradeoffs. Very few matches feel like I don't have at least a few answers somewhere in the 75.
I'm pretty sure this is the best midrange deck in the format.
Looking forward, I am strongly thinking Eternal Scourge is worth experimenting with. As someone else pointed out, Scourge could be pretty cool with Gemstone Caverns, too.
I really, really like Blight Herder, but I may try ditching it for the eternally recurrable threat from under the basement stairs. However I anticipate that doing so will mandate including a Wastes in the manabase for Blood Moon, which I take very seriously. Right now I feel okay about Moon with three Flats, four Paths, and three Ghost Quarters for B or W and three Herders and two Mind Stones for C. But the Herders are a key part of the plan, and if I lose them then Blood Moon becomes significantly more dangerous. However playing a Wastes means losing a utility land or maybe a Mind Stone, neither of which I want to get rid of either. The deck is like a spiderweb of interconnecting strands, full of little connections like this that make it resilient and powerful against so many other builds. Another example, relevant to Mind Stone, is that I run seven cards that replace themselves, giving me way more card advantage than you might think a BWC deck that doesn't run Bob could have. Tamper with that, and I am messing with a strength of the deck. This list really feels extremely tight to me right now.
I have cut both Mind Stones, and have to point out that it's not really card advantage. Yes, they ramp and replace themselves, but at a investment of 2+1 and once you cantrip they leave nothing behind to further your board state. They also make horrible topdecks late game, and without a TKS or Smasher waiting feel like bad negative tempo plays for T2 - most of all when on the draw. Wasteland Strangler is a better example of true CA, as it can remove an opposing dude and leave you with a body.
I've also gone up to 2x Sorin Solemn Visitor. There has never been a game where I'm not happy to see it, and with just a singleton that wasn't happening often enough. My next planned change is to somehow find room for Eldrazi Displacer #2 as they just get out of control with Strangler or Blight Herder and a ton of food from 4x maindeck Proggy Relics.
deaddrift is much more experienced with the deck for sure, but I'm just not seeing some of these parts in the deck framework mesh well, and I don't think it's my lines of play that is the issue. It probably has more to do with my local meta than anything else.
Well, Mind Stone is definitely at its best when you have TKS or Smasher in hand to follow up with, that is true. And cantripping is arguably not true card advantage. But I see Mind Stone pretty differently. I am 100% sold on it. Our decks are a little different, though; I don't play a lot of two-drops like Sculler or Declaration in Stone, so if I don't have Mind Stone in hand, T2 can also be a chance for me to drop a tapland like Vent or Shrine relatively painlessly. The way I play the deck, T1-2 are typically just setting me up to start getting things done from T3-on. This approach can make it hard when on the draw against a fast deck, it's true.
To me, Stone doesn't just cost mana, it also makes mana, so if I use it on T2 to play a Relic, which is pretty common, my opportunity cost was 1 over some other spell I could hypothetically have cast instead of Relic. If I cycle it later in the game, it almost certainly made way more mana for me than it cost me. Most importantly, Stone allows T3 Seers, and T4 Smashers/Herders, even without a Temple in play. With a Temple, it allows T3 Smashers or Herders. It frees up the C-generating Wastes slot in my lands, making room for a Cavern of Souls. (Your earlier comment has had me considering trying Sea Gate Wreckage in that slot again, too.) Plus, it's NOT a terrible topdeck late game the way a seventh land would be, or say a Thoughtseize, because we can dig with it.
I'm glad you're finding success with two Sorins. He is truly great. Keep us posted. BTW I think you meant to write that Displacer is good with Strangler and Though-Knot Seer? Herder has a cast trigger, not an ETB effect.
Hey guys, I've been on this deck since coming back to MtG after a 12+ year hiatus in December. I've followed the builds and discussion on this thread very closely, and figured now that I've learned a bit about the modern format, and piloting the deck, that I can add to the discussion. Firstly, I feel like the deck is extremely rewarding when you know what cards are in your opponents' deck and their game-plan. Since the deck is so controlly and reactive until you turn the corner, knowing what you're up against is more advantageous to this deck than many others in the format. I have done well at my LGS with this deck, quite often going 2 or 3 wins, and way more often than not my losses come from my lack of experience or knowledge when I play am opponent with a new deck. I agree with deaddrift that this is a strong control deck in modern right now, mainly because it beats other control decks like Jund and Nahiri, and thanks to main and sideboard life-gain can do pretty well against aggro as well. Tron is a nightmare, dear god.
Before I forget I want to mention that I've read a lot of talk about ditching Blight Herder for Eternal Scourge, while I think Scourge could deserve a spot in the list, I don't see running more than a 1-of, maybe two. There is a downside in that it can easily be removed by the opponent, and while lowering the curve would benefit the deck, Blight Herders are awesome and as long as I keep seeing as many as 2 people out of 8-10 running Ancestral Visions at my weekly tournaments I can't see myself removing them entirely. Trimming, sure, but they definitely belong in the deck. I'm also a much bigger fan of Westvale Abbey than most on the deck, which Herder Helps. 1 Eternal Scourge as a recurring presence on the board seems like it would be fine, but I think there's much more value to be had in Stranglers and Reshapers for that 3 drop spot. Speaking of Reshaper, I started playing with it a bit, trying a 3 Strangler/ 1 Reshaper split and now moving to an even 2/2 split, and that card has outperformed my expectations. Two games in a row the revealed card on Reshaper's death was a Strangler and I was able to process and kill a creature of the opponent's with its ETB trigger, talk about value. What I like about Strangler and Reshaper is in a bolt-heavy modern meta, these drops will get you value quickly, whereas Scourge would most likely come into play later (scourge T3, they kill before your T4, hopefully you've got TKS/Smasher/Herder in hand ready for T4).
I love Westvale Abbey in the deck. In my mana base I am either trading off a Shambling Vent or Ghost Quarter for Abbey and I think it's worth it in the relatively slow local meta I play in. This deck performs leaps better when you're getting TKS and Smasher out asap, so losing a tap-land and an self-destruct land for a late-game threat land is something I'm definitely alright with. Abbey's first ability is probably underrated, sure it's worse than Sea-Gate Wreckage if you're just looking at the first ability, but you can use Abbey when you have cards in your hand and that 1/1 can be a damn good chump blocker to buy turns while you topdeck as well. And getting to flip it is basically game-ending, and not necessarily in a win-more way. In a Jund matchup two weeks ago we each had 4-6 creatures on board and empty hands, he's got a 5+ something goyf and a beefed scooze to where I can't even swing with a Herder I've got out, I topdeck either another Herder or a Lingering Souls, flip Abbey, and they scoop when I do. I feel like I'm lucky in that usually we see 0-1 decks running some form of aggro, so I've got a few card decisions based on that. Other than the Abbey I've got a second Cavern of Souls (lots of blue players) and just this week I've decided to go from 3 to 2 Herders in favor of putting Batterskull back in. I ******* love Batterskull and I want it in the deck so much. It's an instant lifelink, 4/4 with vigilance creature at worst, it's an artifact that begs to be removed by your opponent that can also be saved by returning it to your hand, and moving it to a Smasher or Souls token is pretty OP. When I look at Herder and Batterskull as 5-drops, I would so much rather drop the Bskull much of the time, and while ramping a Herder is obviously good, getting the value of processing while ramping can be pretty tricky. I like Abbey and Batterskull both because of the ability to use mana late game on them if/when the draws aren't working in your favor.
Going back to the deck performing leaps better when ramping, I too am pretty sold on Mind Stone as a 2-of. Deaddrifts post just above mine discusses all the reasons to use it, getting a 1-2 turn ramp on Smasher being the strongest reason to play it. Often times I get to play a relic off the 1 mana on T2 when I Mind Stone, and that is a pretty decent set-up turn for this deck. Honestly I would love a second Sorin, but I don't see what else can be taken out for it other than Mind Stone and I don't think that's worth it. Increasing the consistency of ramping TKS and Smasher will get you wins, and the cantrip and colorless source seal the deal that this card deserves a spot.
This list seems very tight right now, and I really struggle with deciding how I can trim even 1 card to get something in for play-testing. It's great to see others having success with the deck locally, it is super fun to play and my favorite line to hear from an opponent is "I hate reality Smasher". I am baffled that there hasn't been any results posted by the deck at a large-scale tournament because I don't see where this deck is weak where other control decks aren't. Maybe it's because there's no pro level players grinding with the deck to perform better with it? Maybe no one's playing it online to have modern league representation?
Now that I've finally made an account, I'll try to make some posts on play reports and such. I think personally I could use lots of info on siding IN/OUT and strategies/game-plans against certain decks, and I'll contribute what I can. It would also be sweet if we could get some discussion on higher level plays that might not come up often, but are useful to know. An example would be "when facing U/B mill, always wait to use Relic's exile all ability and keep it untapped while your opponent has the open mana for Cryptic Incursion to crack it in response and stop their potentially huge lifegain". I mean relic alone has soooo many ways to get more value than just "exile card(s)" and as someone who's trying to play catch-up having recently jumped into modern I am looking for any and all ways to improve my piloting of the deck.
So we've got a modern no-ban tournament coming up in 2 weeks, having done it once before back in February. The first time I took my modern B/W Processors list and simply put in 2 Sensei's Divining Tops and managed to get 4th out of 25 or so. Would you think it would be better to stick with the current creature base for the one in two weeks, or should I bring in the Oblivion Sower and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger package since I'll have Eye of Ugin available to me? I love Sower and was one of the last to take it out of my deck-list one Eye got banned, but the current creature build is much faster and I'm pretty content with Smashers being the main end-game threat. Right now my plan is to go with my current list, -2 Mind Stone/+2 Sensei's, and trimming two other cards for 2 Stoneforge Mystic to tutor and play Batterskull early. Any advice on a no-ban version of the deck would be appreciated.
Sorry for the wall of text, and thanks for all the discussion.
EDIT: I knew I forgot about something. I think Warping Wail deserves some testing in the sideboard and I've been playing with it for a couple weeks. The card is so versatile and that fits the deck pretty well, there are so many creatures in modern that can be exiled with it (and on turn two for 2 mana, 1 being colorless, it enables processors), and it seriously catches people off-guard when you are countering sorceries as a B/W deck. They will not play around Warping Wail and that is to our advantage.
BTW I think you meant to write that Displacer is good with Strangler and Though-Knot Seer? Herder has a cast trigger, not an ETB effect.
Guess I've been playing Blight Herder incorrectly this whole time! I actually prefer to blink Tidehollow after processing it's exiled card for more value, and with enough mana and exiled cards (or a relic) you can pretty much lock the opponent out of the game. TKS doesn't work as well because they draw when he leaves vs returning the exiled card.
I totally feel you on Mind Stone, I think for different applications of the deck different cards work well maindeck. It wasn't my cup of tea, but I can see with your meta and build how it can shine and bring a lot of consistency to T3 TKS or T4 Smasher.
Even with 2x Ghost Quarter maindeck the Tron match is near unwinnable (1-2 today vs GR during lunch) because they have so many ways to tutor for missing tron parts and unlike Death and Taxes or Eldrazi and Taxes we have no way to reuse them nor any way to prevent them from getting a basic. I Quartered twice on his Tower in game 2, and he just tutored them right back up while my board remained underdeveloped due to not expanding on mana. Sea Gate just feels like it's so much better. I run out of cards into the late game pretty much every game unless I'm holding back a removal spell.
Thanks for the feedback and keep up the good work! I'm enjoying this deck quite a bit so far.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BUDGET DECK BUILDER SINCE 93'
Modern ------------------------- WU Azorius Titan Midrange
Commander ------------------- WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
***Are you looking for cards priced below TCG NM "LOW" and with FREE SHIPPING? - Click HERE! for my sales thread - 485 Feedback 100% positive!***
You can probably cut rest for the weary from your sideboard. The combination of wasteland strangler + thoughtknot really helps the burn matchup and gaining 8 life is not really needed when our creatures are just much larger than theirs.
I run a list very close to deaddrift's (no Cavern, no Mind Stone, and I run Displacer as a one-of along with 1 Reshaper) and my reasoning to keep Rest for the Weary as a two-of in the side is not really Burn (although it helps having more life gain) but Goblin decks that get really wide in the first turns and, at least for me, are quite difficult to race.
Numerous times I've been able to stabilize at 2-3 life (with them close to or at the starting life total) after playing one of them with Landfall active in the first turns, giving me enough time to find a sweeper and build a board presence to start the beating. One of the times I managed to survive a would-be lethal Goblin Grenade cracking a fetch to turn Landfall on and playing it in response, only to steal the victory in the following turns, so for me it's worth the spot in the side, but it could be meta dependent.
Fair points, I am fan of rest for the weary with the burn decks and probably against 8whack. I always feel that if I make it past turn 4, I will win the game. I would definitely try cutting it for blessed alliance once it comes out.
...
Looking forward, I am strongly thinking Eternal Scourge is worth experimenting with. As someone else pointed out, Scourge could be pretty cool with Gemstone Caverns, too.
...
The gemstone caverns and eternal scourge interaction is nice on paper but I feel that gemstone caverns will just be a plain wastes the majority of the time. I would rather have a ghost quarter or pretty much any other utility land instead of gemstone caverns. Our mana base is not too bad.
...
Before I forget I want to mention that I've read a lot of talk about ditching Blight Herder for Eternal Scourge, while I think Scourge could deserve a spot in the list, I don't see running more than a 1-of, maybe two. There is a downside in that it can easily be removed by the opponent, and while lowering the curve would benefit the deck, Blight Herders are awesome and as long as I keep seeing as many as 2 people out of 8-10 running Ancestral Visions at my weekly tournaments I can't see myself removing them entirely. Trimming, sure, but they definitely belong in the deck. I'm also a much bigger fan of Westvale Abbey than most on the deck, which Herder Helps. 1 Eternal Scourge as a recurring presence on the board seems like it would be fine, but I think there's much more value to be had in Stranglers and Reshapers for that 3 drop spot. Speaking of Reshaper, I started playing with it a bit, trying a 3 Strangler/ 1 Reshaper split and now moving to an even 2/2 split, and that card has outperformed my expectations. Two games in a row the revealed card on Reshaper's death was a Strangler and I was able to process and kill a creature of the opponent's with its ETB trigger, talk about value. What I like about Strangler and Reshaper is in a bolt-heavy modern meta, these drops will get you value quickly, whereas Scourge would most likely come into play later (scourge T3, they kill before your T4, hopefully you've got TKS/Smasher/Herder in hand ready for T4).
I love Westvale Abbey in the deck. In my mana base I am either trading off a Shambling Vent or Ghost Quarter for Abbey and I think it's worth it in the relatively slow local meta I play in. This deck performs leaps better when you're getting TKS and Smasher out asap, so losing a tap-land and an self-destruct land for a late-game threat land is something I'm definitely alright with. Abbey's first ability is probably underrated, sure it's worse than Sea-Gate Wreckage if you're just looking at the first ability, but you can use Abbey when you have cards in your hand and that 1/1 can be a damn good chump blocker to buy turns while you topdeck as well. And getting to flip it is basically game-ending, and not necessarily in a win-more way. In a Jund matchup two weeks ago we each had 4-6 creatures on board and empty hands, he's got a 5+ something goyf and a beefed scooze to where I can't even swing with a Herder I've got out, I topdeck either another Herder or a Lingering Souls, flip Abbey, and they scoop when I do. I feel like I'm lucky in that usually we see 0-1 decks running some form of aggro, so I've got a few card decisions based on that. Other than the Abbey I've got a second Cavern of Souls (lots of blue players) and just this week I've decided to go from 3 to 2 Herders in favor of putting Batterskull back in. I ******* love Batterskull and I want it in the deck so much. It's an instant lifelink, 4/4 with vigilance creature at worst, it's an artifact that begs to be removed by your opponent that can also be saved by returning it to your hand, and moving it to a Smasher or Souls token is pretty OP. When I look at Herder and Batterskull as 5-drops, I would so much rather drop the Bskull much of the time, and while ramping a Herder is obviously good, getting the value of processing while ramping can be pretty tricky. I like Abbey and Batterskull both because of the ability to use mana late game on them if/when the draws aren't working in your favor.
Going back to the deck performing leaps better when ramping, I too am pretty sold on Mind Stone as a 2-of. Deaddrifts post just above mine discusses all the reasons to use it, getting a 1-2 turn ramp on Smasher being the strongest reason to play it. Often times I get to play a relic off the 1 mana on T2 when I Mind Stone, and that is a pretty decent set-up turn for this deck. Honestly I would love a second Sorin, but I don't see what else can be taken out for it other than Mind Stone and I don't think that's worth it. Increasing the consistency of ramping TKS and Smasher will get you wins, and the cantrip and colorless source seal the deal that this card deserves a spot.
This list seems very tight right now, and I really struggle with deciding how I can trim even 1 card to get something in for play-testing. It's great to see others having success with the deck locally, it is super fun to play and my favorite line to hear from an opponent is "I hate reality Smasher". I am baffled that there hasn't been any results posted by the deck at a large-scale tournament because I don't see where this deck is weak where other control decks aren't. Maybe it's because there's no pro level players grinding with the deck to perform better with it? Maybe no one's playing it online to have modern league representation?
Now that I've finally made an account, I'll try to make some posts on play reports and such. I think personally I could use lots of info on siding IN/OUT and strategies/game-plans against certain decks, and I'll contribute what I can. It would also be sweet if we could get some discussion on higher level plays that might not come up often, but are useful to know. An example would be "when facing U/B mill, always wait to use Relic's exile all ability and keep it untapped while your opponent has the open mana for Cryptic Incursion to crack it in response and stop their potentially huge lifegain". I mean relic alone has soooo many ways to get more value than just "exile card(s)" and as someone who's trying to play catch-up having recently jumped into modern I am looking for any and all ways to improve my piloting of the deck.
So we've got a modern no-ban tournament coming up in 2 weeks, having done it once before back in February. The first time I took my modern B/W Processors list and simply put in 2 Sensei's Divining Tops and managed to get 4th out of 25 or so. Would you think it would be better to stick with the current creature base for the one in two weeks, or should I bring in the Oblivion Sower and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger package since I'll have Eye of Ugin available to me? I love Sower and was one of the last to take it out of my deck-list one Eye got banned, but the current creature build is much faster and I'm pretty content with Smashers being the main end-game threat. Right now my plan is to go with my current list, -2 Mind Stone/+2 Sensei's, and trimming two other cards for 2 Stoneforge Mystic to tutor and play Batterskull early. Any advice on a no-ban version of the deck would be appreciated.
Sorry for the wall of text, and thanks for all the discussion.
EDIT: I knew I forgot about something. I think Warping Wail deserves some testing in the sideboard and I've been playing with it for a couple weeks. The card is so versatile and that fits the deck pretty well, there are so many creatures in modern that can be exiled with it (and on turn two for 2 mana, 1 being colorless, it enables processors), and it seriously catches people off-guard when you are countering sorceries as a B/W deck. They will not play around Warping Wail and that is to our advantage.
Here is a list of resopnses to your points.
First of all, welcome back! I took a long hiatus from MTG too. I didn't play from 5th edition to Innistrad.
I agree on eternal scourge, it will probably be a 1 or a 2 of in the final iteration.
The deck hasn't put up any large tournament results since the deck is not too popular. For this deck to really break out, we just need one person at a major tourney to get lucky enough to have good matchups and place in the top 8. If this deck starts putting up a lot of 5-0 records on MTGO, it will also gain some popularity. Currently, when I play on MTGO I use the deck in my signature, but once the new set is released I am going to try out the processor deck I posted earlier in this forum.
I agree that some high level tips should be included for matchups. I think that they will be once some more tournament reports start coming in and more people can give some advice. deaddrift did a good job on the primer and I am sure that he will keep it updated and he is actively seeking input from us, which is really good.
I haven't had a chance to try out westvale abbey but it seems decent and I would stick with the blight herder plan to help generate tokens.
For your no ban list tourney, I don't think that the BW processor deck will be the strongest deck there but I would go back to the earlier pages of this thread and use one of those decks. Ramping into sower into ulamog is always a lot of fun. I would expect to play against a lot of blue cards.
...
Even with 2x Ghost Quarter maindeck the Tron match is near unwinnable (1-2 today vs GR during lunch) because they have so many ways to tutor for missing tron parts and unlike Death and Taxes or Eldrazi and Taxes we have no way to reuse them nor any way to prevent them from getting a basic. I Quartered twice on his Tower in game 2, and he just tutored them right back up while my board remained underdeveloped due to not expanding on mana. Sea Gate just feels like it's so much better. I run out of cards into the late game pretty much every game unless I'm holding back a removal spell.
Thanks for the feedback and keep up the good work! I'm enjoying this deck quite a bit so far.
We both agree about the tron matchup and we play really similar decks. Tidehollow and displacer are really strong. Displacer can really take over the games sometimes and has helped my matchup against gavony township.
Maybe we should take some advice from the bant eldrazi deck and run some eldrazi mimic in the sideboard. It would allow us to apply a lot of pressure and would even help out against scapeshift (which is gaining in popularity) and other non-interactive decks.
vs. Grixis Midrange: (midrange/control)
2-0 [1-0]
SIDE IN: Pithing Needle x2 / SIDE OUT: Sorin
OP: Relic of Progenitus, Lingering Souls, Thoughtseize
UP: nothing comes to mind Notes: A good player with a good deck but he had an unfavorable match. Relic is always good against Snapcaster and K Command.
vs. Mono-R Burn: (spell-aggro)
2-0 [2-0]
SIDE IN: Rest for the Weary x2, Timely Reinforcements, Ratchet Bomb x2 / SIDE OUT: Thoughtseixe x4, Unmaking
OP: Smasher
UP: n/a Notes: He kind of flooded G1 while I had T3 TKS and T4 Smasher. In G2 I stabilized at 1 life, cast Rest for the Weary, and Smashed in for victory.
vs. RG Tron: (ramp/control)
2-1 [3-0]
SIDE IN: Stony Silence x2, Pithing Needle x2, Extraction x3, Unmaking / SIDE OUT: Relic x4, Souls x2, Sorin
OP: Thoughtseize, TKS, Smasher
UP: Lingering Souls Notes: Lost G1 after stalling at 4 mana with a hand full of Herders and Smashers. I took G2 on a T1 Thoughtseize followed by TKS on both T3 and T4. A similar line won me G3, but this time my hate played out as well, with a Needle and Stony slowing him down even further.
vs. Bant Eldrazi: (creature-aggro/midrange)
2-1 [4-0]
SIDE IN: Damnation x2, Pithing Needle x2, Timely Reinforcements / SIDE OUT: Sorin, Lingering Souls x1, Unmaking, Strangler x1
OP: Disruption, Removal, Ghost Quarter
UP: n/a Notes:Eldrazi Displacer does tons of work in the Bant build but I was able to overcome it with lots of discard and targeted removal, plus Pithing Needle. In G3 I Ghost Quartered his Temple during his draw step--the same draw step where he drew his last basic land. Ha ha ha. This guy was new to his deck and I am not so sure I have the upper hand in this match; they are big and fast.
vs. Grixis Delver: (tempo/control)
0-2 [4-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3 SIDE OUT: Sorin, Strangler x1
OP: nothing for me
UP: my lands Notes: Mana flood in G1 plus mana screw in G2 plus zero Relics in-hand all match = I lose. In G2 I was very frustrated after Thoughtseizing him T1 and seeing two Polluted Deltas because i planned to Extract them after he cracked the first in my T2 end step--but he didn't do that. He played the second before cracking either of them. He played it that way because he had no reason to crack earlier--worked out pretty well for him, all things considered, especially after he played a third Delta on T4. I beat this fella on Monday but tonight he was 10-0 in games, undefeated.
Thoughts: Fewer players tonight because of the pre-release. I'm still convinced this deck will be even better after EMN becomes legal for play. Looking forward to it, in fact.
Regarding the Tron match: I agree that Ghost Quarter is not usually enough by itself, but it is a line of play that can pay off sometimes. If you can follow up by Extracting a Tron land, you're unlikely to lose the game. It's bad, but I side in eight cards for this match now (none of them exclusively for Tron) and though it is unfavorable it is not unwinnable with some luck.
Here is a no-banlist version I threw together, afterwards I realized that I overlooked Anguished Unmaking since the lists I was looking at were all from before the SOI release because of the Eye ban. Should I try to make room for a copy or two in the 75?
Maybe I put two Duress and one Aven Mindcensor in the board in place of the three Surgical Extractions I currently run. It's possible that these could be a better plan for Tron and all the Scapeshift/Titanshift/Through The Breach/RG Valakut variants that give this deck trouble.
Pros: Duress and Mindcensor are both good against each of those decks by themselves; unlike Extraction, they don't need set-up to be good, so they should be more reliable. Mindcensor adds a little bit of a clock, and would be good against Chord or Evolution decks, or against Nahiri's ultimate (assuming we can play it around counterspells). It synergizes well with Ghost Quarter. Duress could come in G2/3 for Thoughtseize, and provide pain-free disruption against Burn, 8 Whack, etc.
Cons: Have to plan ahead and leave mana up for Mindcensor. Extraction is much better against Dredge and Living End and can be cast for "free" with its Phyrexian mana symbol. When it hits a Tron land or a combo piece it is essentially game over for our opponent. Extraction powers our Processors even when the Relics have been sided out.
Thoughts? Overall, I would say Extraction has a lower floor and higher ceiling than these options. I love Surgical Extraction but I am always trying to find ways to increase the deck's competitive edge, even by small degrees. However I think that a lot of careful testing would be needed to verify which angle is a better overall choice in an open meta.
I'm going to try 3 eldrazi mimic in the side once I have time to play again. They fit very well in the curve and, hopefully, you are playing a creature per round.
Turn 1/2 mimic
Turn 2/3 thought-knot or strangler attack for 3 or 4
Turn 3/4 thought-knot, smasher, or herder attack for 7 - 14
Turn 4 - They are dead.
Against tron I would side out the relics and some lingering souls and bring in:
anguished unmaking, 3x mimics, and pithing needle naming oblivion stone or karn
I do like duress though. I feel like there are better options than aven mindcensor.
Why do you run damnation and ratchet bomb in the side?
Yeah, I'm not sure Mindcensor is good enough. Though it could be amazing on the play against an opposing T2 Map. I'll be interested in hearing about the Mimics, good luck!
Damnation is for all the creature swarm decks, regardless of creature size (e.g. from Elves to Kiki-Chord to Living End or Bant Eldrazi). Ratchet Bomb takes the place of Engineered Explosives, which would be a much better choice IF it could get to 3 easily. But it can't in this deck. Bomb hits lots of creatures in these kinds of aggro matches too, but it also hits Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, and assorted planeswalkers. I've ticked it up to 4 waiting for a Nahiri to hit the field before, and that is not such a bad play, it turns out.
I went 3-1 tonight for 5th of 32 players.
2-0 vs. UB Eldrazi/Tezzeret brew: (control/brew) [1-0]
SIDE IN: 2x Pithing Needle, Unmaking / SIDE OUT: Sorin, 2x Strangler
OP: TKS
UP: n/a Notes: This was the first Modern tourney for this fella and his brew went down easily.
1-2 vs. RG Tron: (ramp/control) [1-1]
SIDE IN: 2x Stony Silence, 2x Pithing Needle, 3x Extraction, 1x Unmaking / SIDE OUT: 4x Relic, 3x Lingering Souls, Go for the Throat
OP: Needle, TKS/Thoughtseize
UP: Ghost Quarter Notes: In G1, recognizing my opponent and the deck he would present, I kept an opener with 2x Ghost Quarter, 2x Relic, Temple, Lingering Souls, and Reshaper. On both T2 and T3 I GQ'ed his lands to keep him off Tron, sandbagging a Temple to cast a Reshaper on T4. Which I was able to do, but I was not able to prevent him from Sylvan Scrying three times (!) into Tron, for Karn, at which point--with one creature and two lands in play, and 20 life remaining--I ceded. In other words, the GQ-only plan failed miserably for me against Tron. In G2, I mulled to 6 and kept 2x Caves, 2x Smasher, Needle, and Stony, scrying a Temple on top. T1 Needle naming Karn --> T2 Stony --> T3 TKS (drew into it) --> T4 and T5 Smasher shut him down completely for an easy win. But in G3 I stalled after my opening two lands, until T6 finally brought me a third land. I was way too slow to have any hope in this game. I also made a serious mistake in this match, and killed a World Breaker instead of exiling it with Unmaking, forgetting that he could get it back from the graveyard by saccing a land. Not sure it would have mattered for the end result, but it was dumb nonetheless.
2-0 vs. Jeskai Control (no Nahiri): (control) [2-1]
SIDE IN: 3x Extraction, SIDE OUT: Sorin, Go for the Throat (but see notes for siding in G3)
OP: Thoughtseize/TKS, Cavern of Souls, Blight Herder, Shambling Vent
UP: Surgical Extraction Notes: In G1 lots of hand disruption plus Cavern allowed me to dominate the match from the get-go. I cast Herder just in time to take two Ancestral Visions... hahahahaha! Poor guy. In G2 I flooded and lost to his Elspeth pumping a sole Snapcaster, despite a very strong opener, because I couldn't apply any pressure after drawing only lands. In G3 (SIDE OUT: 3x Extraction, SIDE IN: 2x Pithing Needle and Unmaking), after a flurry of opening activity followed by Supreme Verdict, a topdeck war of dead draws on both sides meant that Shambling Vent was able to win the game single-handedly.
2-1 vs. Blue Moon: (control) [3-1]
SIDE IN: 3x Extraction, 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Unmaking / SIDE OUT: 3x Strangler, Sorin, Go for the Throat
OP: Cavern of Souls, Thoughtseize/TKS, Blight Herder: Keranos and Boom//Bust for him
UP: n/a Notes: I did not see Blood Moon during the match, but was prepared to play around it nonetheless and don't think I would have had too much trouble. As usual against blue permission/Snapcaster builds, I felt strongly favored in this match. My sole Cavern was a big deal in G1 and led to an easy win. But in G2 a grindy game led to him casting a Boom // Bust for 6 mana after he already had Keranos in play, which was enough to give him the win. In G3 a slow game led to me using Extraction to enable Blight Herder with tokens, which was enough to get there. In this last game I was able to Unmake his sided-in Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker which took away his last hope for victory.
Thoughts: Yuck, I am sick of Tron. However, at this point, I have to say that right now--before the meta shifts to accommodate the new EMN cards that is--I think the main 60 is exactly right for what I am trying to do with the build. My one spell flex slot is Reshaper, and my only land flex slot is Cavern. Meanwhile the side is great for an open meta like the one I play in--but could maybe stand a little fiddling (as always). I am probably going to try changing the sideboard as detailed above; but it will be a while, because I am about to take a long vacation. However, I plan to play a couple nights at game stores in different cities on my upcoming road trip, and I will take notes, and fill in any interested readers on my results, as soon as I have a chance.
By the way: For the past few months, I have been using a notebook I developed to keep track of my tourney results. It is invaluable for writing play reports like these, but even more importantly, it helps me improve my game because it allows me to take careful notes quickly and easily. I am about to pay for a run of professionally printed versions of my notebook, and will try selling them locally. I am also probably going to list them on Etsy and/or eBay for anyone else that wants to keep records of their competitive results. I attached an image of a notes page if anyone is interested. I definitely think that taking notes and writing these reports has improved my attention to the nuances of the deck and its matchups, thereby improving my success with it.
Cheers to all! Here's to good draws and shrewd plays.
a few questions for the tron match. Wouldn't eternal scourge be a very good play against it, since karn's +4 lets you place it in exile easily from hane If he -3 to kill it, then okay value all the way. I know he will be a bolt outlet, but at the same time, he is a 3/3 that has to be dealt with and is a good mana sink along with souls to clog up the board. It might also give us another reason to look at condiut of ruin for the 75 as well.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Affinity (creature-aggro)
2-1 [1-0]
SIDE IN: Stony Silence x2, Ratchet Bomb x2, Pithing Needle x2, Anguished Unmaking x1 / SIDE OUT: Go for the Throat x1, Relic x4, Thoughtseize x2
OP: Lingering Souls, Blight Herder, Ratchet Bomb
UP: Go for the Throat, Strangler
Notes: I was on the draw G1. Ratchet Bomb is a good sweeper but nonbos with Stony Silence; since I drew Bomb but not Stony it worked out OK. Lingering Souls is always good against Affinity but Herder saved the day after an unexpected Blood Moon; it processed two Pathed creatures and gave C for my Seers and Smasher in game three.
UB Mill (spell-aggro/brew)
2-0 [2-0]
SIDE IN: Surgical Extraction x3, Stony Silence x2, Ratchet Bomb x2, Pithing Needle x2, Anguished Unmaking x1 / SIDE OUT: n/a
OP: Lingering Souls, Sorin
UP: Path, Strangler
Notes: I was on the draw G1. When I side against Mill I don't remove cards, I simply add the ones that might be useful. This guy was running a sub-optimized budget brew with no Ensnaring Bridge, and he was an easy beat. In general the match is a race where we want the fastest possible damage output. A tuned Mill deck needs one or both of two specific cards to beat us: Crypt Incursion and Ensnaring Bridge. Both should be top targets for Thoughtseize/IoK/TKS. Ratchet Bomb and Unmaking can hit Bridge, and leaving Relic plus one mana active is mandatory to protect against Incursion.
Jeskai Control (control)
2-0 [3-0]
SIDE IN: Unmaking x1, Pithing Needle x2, Ratchet Bomb x2 / SIDE OUT: Go for the Throat x1, Sorin x1, Strangler x2
OP: Relic of Progenitus, Blight Herder, Lingering Souls, Reality Smasher, Thoughtseize, Ghost Quarter
UP: Go for the Throat, Surgical Extraction
Notes: I was on the draw G1. The above is an example of a post-SB 61 from me, which I do pretty regularly. I was siding for Nahiri but it turns out he didn't use her. Relic on my T1 both games was brutal for him. Strangler hit an Ancestral Vision, killing itself, in G1; and Herder hit two Ancestral Visions in game 2. Resolved Smashers were able to swing through to close both games. Thoughtseize on his Elspeth, Sun's Champion was huge--that card is a huge beating once it lands. I was also able to see and then play around his in-hand Izzet Staticaster when I took his Elspeth, which was also crucial. Staticaster is very, very bad for decks that play as many tokens as we do. Watch out for one (rarely two) from the side in every G2/3 against any URx build.
Blue Moon (control)
1-1-1 [3-0-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3, Unmaking x1, Pithing Needle x2 / SIDE OUT: Sorin, Go for the Throat, Strangler x2, Smasher x1
OP: Mind Stone, Blight Herder, his Jace, Architect of Thought
UP: Lingering Souls (see notes), Surgical Extraction
Notes: I was on the draw G1. I easily won G1 with Herder plus tokens; despite being locked to three lands until T8, my Mind Stone allowed me mana to cast my fatties. I am a huge believer in Mind Stone by now. In G2--which I lost after Thoughtseizing him on T1, taking one of his 3 in-hand Remands and then Extracting the other two--I had seven lands on board but no source for C. Frustrating. In both G2 and G3, his one-of Jace was able to +1 every turn and shut down my otherwise-awesome-in-this-kind-of-match Lingering Souls. That one planeswalker was able to win him the one game, and then draw the match for him. If I play this guy again I will bring in Ratchet Bomb for his planeswalkers for sure. I could have sided and played better in this match.
Grixis Delver (creature-aggro/control)
2-1 [4-0-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3, Unmaking x1 / SIDE OUT: Sorin x1, Smasher x2
OP: Relic, Thoughtseize
UP: his Snapcaster
Notes: I was on the play G1 for once! T1 Relic in all three games was really bad for him. I don't have much in the way of notes for this match.
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
Planeswalker (1)
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3x Blight Herder
1x Matter Reshaper
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
3x Wasteland Strangler
Instant (6)
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Go for the Throat
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery (8)
4x Lingering Souls
4x Thoughtseize
Artifact (6)
2x Mind Stone
4x Relic of Progenitus
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Damnation
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Rest for the Weary
2x Stony Silence
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Timely Reinforcements
Thoughts: I recently decided to go back to Anguished Unmaking over Oblivion Ring because instant speed is so good and O-Ring is vulnerable to removal. I also took out my experimental Zealous Persecution from the side, replacing it with a second Pithing Needle for Tron, Affinity, and manlands/planeswalkers in general. Sometimes if you're lucky against a newer player you can name a fetch land with it, which is always good fun. The sideboard of my deck is always in a state of mild flux as I swap one or two cards around for something else to try each week or so.
I over-sided in Extraction vs. the blue Snapcaster decks tonight. It is pretty good in these matches but was dead a couple times for me tonight. I was frustrated in the Blue Moon match because it was eminently winnable but I didn't side correctly or play as well as I could have.
I encourage everyone with experience in the relevant matches to offer their own perspective too. I'm sure to forget some important ideas and not know some tricks that should be mentioned. Also note that just because a card doesn't get mentioned in a match doesn't mean it's irrelevant, just that I thought it bore no special mention (or I forgot about it). Adding more incentive to chime in, there are some options like Sea Gate Wreckage and Eldrazi Displacer that I don't have enough experience with to comment on.
This is so beautiful! I like to read game reports but it is so nice to have a decent format where people can extract the information they want from each game without having to read through a whole paragraph. I think if everybody in this thread follows the same format, it will really help tune the deck. I am excited to read many, many reports to see how our deck actually preforms against other decks baised on many matchups of every skill level. I feel that the reports currently reported here are by people who are very experienced with the BW color combination in modern and that their sideboard information or by game matchups will make a better primer and encourage more people to play BW in modern.
Questions:
vs. affinity :: Why didn't you bring in damnation? Sorin is slow and can be sideboarded.
I agree, blood moon is unexpected. But usually against any deck that runs red I try to play around it as much as possible game 2. Plays such as cracking marsh flats for a basic and so on. I do this since blood moon absolutely wrecks this deck right now.
Why don't you run any inquisition of kozilek?
You can probably cut rest for the weary from your sideboard. The combination of wasteland strangler + thoughtknot really helps the burn matchup and gaining 8 life is not really needed when our creatures are just much larger than theirs.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
This deck definitely flies under the radar quite well. It doesn't show up in results from what I can tell but can still hold its own to the field. The only other Eldrazi decks out there are EldraziTron and Bant Eldrazi. Both of which are very different. I would say, keep playing until you keep losing 0-4!
I'm missing Reality Smashers, Matter Reshapers, and some sideboard cards (probably $50 worth?) so I proxy em.
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
I love read your reports, i only can play a small local metal and some friends in Modern/legacy casualgames and is good to see reports from bigger tournaments. Thx for the hard work
BWC Processors Eldrazi CWB
UBC Emerge EldraziCBU
C Tron Eldrazi C
RBC Meld Eldrazi CBR
GU Tokens Eldrazi UG
I should have brought in Damnation, not sure what that brain fart is all about. But Sorin is not terrible either. I'd probably take out the other two Thoughtseizes first.
I agree about the danger of Blood Moon and the need to play around it, but I have to admit I didn't anticipate it from Affinity. I wrote a couple of thoughts about Blood Moon vs. Processors at the bottom of this post, if you're interested.
I don't run IoK because I only have room for four hand disruption sorceries and have had Inquisition miss the 4+ CMC card I needed to hit, thereby losing me the match, too many times. I have made a lot of decisions in this deck about maximizing my versatility, even at the cost of life, or tempo, or some other consideration, and I feel strongly that Thoughtseize is where I want to be.
Like bad_shot, I use Rest to help stabilize and turn the corner against fast aggro as well as for Burn. It has been several months since I played against a capable Burn player with a fully-tuned deck, but when I do, I feel certain I will be very happy I have three lifegain cards in the side.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I went 3-1 for 10th of 33 last night, having the worst tiebreakers of all the 9 point holders.
vs. Elves: (creature-aggro/brew)
2-1 [1-0]
SIDE IN: Ratchet Bomb x2, Damnation x2, Unmaking x1, Timely Reinforcements x1 / SIDE OUT: Relic x4, Thoughtseize x1
OP: Smasher, Souls
UP: n/a
Notes: Not much to tell here, I lost G! due to a poor keep decision and never got to cast my spells, but G2/3 were easy wins for me against a not very competitive brew.
vs. Taking Turns: (control)
1-2 [1-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3, Unmaking x1, and Ratchet Bomb x2 / SIDE OUT: Sorin x1, Go for the Throat x1, Blight Herder x3
OP: his extra turns
UP: Thoughtseize/Thought-Knot Seer
Notes: Ugh, f--- this deck. Only the second time I've played it, thank god. If you can't take them off card draw then you may find that like me you can't get them to 0 before they go off. The one game I won was due to a great start with T1 Thoughtseize, T3 TKS, and T4 Smasher.
vs: Mono-W Tokens/Soul Sisters (creature-aggro/brew)
2-1 [2-1]
SIDE IN: Unmaking x1, Ratchet Bomb x2, Extraction x3, Damnation x2 / SIDE OUT: Herder x3, Relic x4
OP: Unmaking, Thoughtseize, TKS, Smasher
UP: Path, Go for the Throat
Notes: He took game one after landing: 3 Honor of the Pure; 1 Intangible Virtue; and 1 Path of Bravery, making his topdecked Spectral Procession a 3 mana "gain three vigilant flying 6/6's. You gain 3 life when they attack." I was able to fight through three Paths in G2 with TKS and Smasher (trample is so good against tokens) and in G3 he kept a one-land hand and didn't draw his drops.
vs. Naya Allies: (creature-aggro)
2-1 [3-1]
SIDE IN: Ratchet Bomb x2, Damnation x2, Timely Reinforcements x1, Rest for the Weary x2 / SIDE OUT: Relic x4, Herder x3
OP: Lingering Souls, Thoughtseize, TKS, Timely Reinforcements, Ratchet Bomb, his Kabira Evangel
UP: nothing I can recall
Notes: Fast aggro is always demanding and stabilizing ASAP is always important. In G1 I ceded on my T3 because I was looking at lethal and had only 3 mana with a hand full of Seer, Smasher, and Herder only. For G2/3 I was able to play a little lower to the ground with Souls, and resolve many Thoughtseizes to control his speed and explosiveness, always taking his next-turn best play when I saw his hand. Targeted removal is very important in this match, but I was unable to cast Unmaking due to a low life total, once, in G2.
Deck was the exact same as Friday.
Thoughts: Man this deck sides well. Ratchet Bomb is so slow but it, like so many other cards in the deck, has both power and versatility despite its significant tradeoffs. Very few matches feel like I don't have at least a few answers somewhere in the 75.
I'm pretty sure this is the best midrange deck in the format.
Looking forward, I am strongly thinking Eternal Scourge is worth experimenting with. As someone else pointed out, Scourge could be pretty cool with Gemstone Caverns, too.
I really, really like Blight Herder, but I may try ditching it for the eternally recurrable threat from under the basement stairs. However I anticipate that doing so will mandate including a Wastes in the manabase for Blood Moon, which I take very seriously. Right now I feel okay about Moon with three Flats, four Paths, and three Ghost Quarters for B or W and three Herders and two Mind Stones for C. But the Herders are a key part of the plan, and if I lose them then Blood Moon becomes significantly more dangerous. However playing a Wastes means losing a utility land or maybe a Mind Stone, neither of which I want to get rid of either. The deck is like a spiderweb of interconnecting strands, full of little connections like this that make it resilient and powerful against so many other builds. Another example, relevant to Mind Stone, is that I run seven cards that replace themselves, giving me way more card advantage than you might think a BWC deck that doesn't run Bob could have. Tamper with that, and I am messing with a strength of the deck. This list really feels extremely tight to me right now.
I've also gone up to 2x Sorin Solemn Visitor. There has never been a game where I'm not happy to see it, and with just a singleton that wasn't happening often enough. My next planned change is to somehow find room for Eldrazi Displacer #2 as they just get out of control with Strangler or Blight Herder and a ton of food from 4x maindeck Proggy Relics.
deaddrift is much more experienced with the deck for sure, but I'm just not seeing some of these parts in the deck framework mesh well, and I don't think it's my lines of play that is the issue. It probably has more to do with my local meta than anything else.
BUDGET DECK BUILDER SINCE 93'
Modern ------------------------- WU Azorius Titan Midrange
Commander ------------------- WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
***Are you looking for cards priced below TCG NM "LOW" and with FREE SHIPPING? - Click HERE! for my sales thread - 485 Feedback 100% positive!***
To me, Stone doesn't just cost mana, it also makes mana, so if I use it on T2 to play a Relic, which is pretty common, my opportunity cost was 1 over some other spell I could hypothetically have cast instead of Relic. If I cycle it later in the game, it almost certainly made way more mana for me than it cost me. Most importantly, Stone allows T3 Seers, and T4 Smashers/Herders, even without a Temple in play. With a Temple, it allows T3 Smashers or Herders. It frees up the C-generating Wastes slot in my lands, making room for a Cavern of Souls. (Your earlier comment has had me considering trying Sea Gate Wreckage in that slot again, too.) Plus, it's NOT a terrible topdeck late game the way a seventh land would be, or say a Thoughtseize, because we can dig with it.
I'm glad you're finding success with two Sorins. He is truly great. Keep us posted. BTW I think you meant to write that Displacer is good with Strangler and Though-Knot Seer? Herder has a cast trigger, not an ETB effect.
Before I forget I want to mention that I've read a lot of talk about ditching Blight Herder for Eternal Scourge, while I think Scourge could deserve a spot in the list, I don't see running more than a 1-of, maybe two. There is a downside in that it can easily be removed by the opponent, and while lowering the curve would benefit the deck, Blight Herders are awesome and as long as I keep seeing as many as 2 people out of 8-10 running Ancestral Visions at my weekly tournaments I can't see myself removing them entirely. Trimming, sure, but they definitely belong in the deck. I'm also a much bigger fan of Westvale Abbey than most on the deck, which Herder Helps. 1 Eternal Scourge as a recurring presence on the board seems like it would be fine, but I think there's much more value to be had in Stranglers and Reshapers for that 3 drop spot. Speaking of Reshaper, I started playing with it a bit, trying a 3 Strangler/ 1 Reshaper split and now moving to an even 2/2 split, and that card has outperformed my expectations. Two games in a row the revealed card on Reshaper's death was a Strangler and I was able to process and kill a creature of the opponent's with its ETB trigger, talk about value. What I like about Strangler and Reshaper is in a bolt-heavy modern meta, these drops will get you value quickly, whereas Scourge would most likely come into play later (scourge T3, they kill before your T4, hopefully you've got TKS/Smasher/Herder in hand ready for T4).
I love Westvale Abbey in the deck. In my mana base I am either trading off a Shambling Vent or Ghost Quarter for Abbey and I think it's worth it in the relatively slow local meta I play in. This deck performs leaps better when you're getting TKS and Smasher out asap, so losing a tap-land and an self-destruct land for a late-game threat land is something I'm definitely alright with. Abbey's first ability is probably underrated, sure it's worse than Sea-Gate Wreckage if you're just looking at the first ability, but you can use Abbey when you have cards in your hand and that 1/1 can be a damn good chump blocker to buy turns while you topdeck as well. And getting to flip it is basically game-ending, and not necessarily in a win-more way. In a Jund matchup two weeks ago we each had 4-6 creatures on board and empty hands, he's got a 5+ something goyf and a beefed scooze to where I can't even swing with a Herder I've got out, I topdeck either another Herder or a Lingering Souls, flip Abbey, and they scoop when I do. I feel like I'm lucky in that usually we see 0-1 decks running some form of aggro, so I've got a few card decisions based on that. Other than the Abbey I've got a second Cavern of Souls (lots of blue players) and just this week I've decided to go from 3 to 2 Herders in favor of putting Batterskull back in. I ******* love Batterskull and I want it in the deck so much. It's an instant lifelink, 4/4 with vigilance creature at worst, it's an artifact that begs to be removed by your opponent that can also be saved by returning it to your hand, and moving it to a Smasher or Souls token is pretty OP. When I look at Herder and Batterskull as 5-drops, I would so much rather drop the Bskull much of the time, and while ramping a Herder is obviously good, getting the value of processing while ramping can be pretty tricky. I like Abbey and Batterskull both because of the ability to use mana late game on them if/when the draws aren't working in your favor.
Going back to the deck performing leaps better when ramping, I too am pretty sold on Mind Stone as a 2-of. Deaddrifts post just above mine discusses all the reasons to use it, getting a 1-2 turn ramp on Smasher being the strongest reason to play it. Often times I get to play a relic off the 1 mana on T2 when I Mind Stone, and that is a pretty decent set-up turn for this deck. Honestly I would love a second Sorin, but I don't see what else can be taken out for it other than Mind Stone and I don't think that's worth it. Increasing the consistency of ramping TKS and Smasher will get you wins, and the cantrip and colorless source seal the deal that this card deserves a spot.
This list seems very tight right now, and I really struggle with deciding how I can trim even 1 card to get something in for play-testing. It's great to see others having success with the deck locally, it is super fun to play and my favorite line to hear from an opponent is "I hate reality Smasher". I am baffled that there hasn't been any results posted by the deck at a large-scale tournament because I don't see where this deck is weak where other control decks aren't. Maybe it's because there's no pro level players grinding with the deck to perform better with it? Maybe no one's playing it online to have modern league representation?
Now that I've finally made an account, I'll try to make some posts on play reports and such. I think personally I could use lots of info on siding IN/OUT and strategies/game-plans against certain decks, and I'll contribute what I can. It would also be sweet if we could get some discussion on higher level plays that might not come up often, but are useful to know. An example would be "when facing U/B mill, always wait to use Relic's exile all ability and keep it untapped while your opponent has the open mana for Cryptic Incursion to crack it in response and stop their potentially huge lifegain". I mean relic alone has soooo many ways to get more value than just "exile card(s)" and as someone who's trying to play catch-up having recently jumped into modern I am looking for any and all ways to improve my piloting of the deck.
So we've got a modern no-ban tournament coming up in 2 weeks, having done it once before back in February. The first time I took my modern B/W Processors list and simply put in 2 Sensei's Divining Tops and managed to get 4th out of 25 or so. Would you think it would be better to stick with the current creature base for the one in two weeks, or should I bring in the Oblivion Sower and Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger package since I'll have Eye of Ugin available to me? I love Sower and was one of the last to take it out of my deck-list one Eye got banned, but the current creature build is much faster and I'm pretty content with Smashers being the main end-game threat. Right now my plan is to go with my current list, -2 Mind Stone/+2 Sensei's, and trimming two other cards for 2 Stoneforge Mystic to tutor and play Batterskull early. Any advice on a no-ban version of the deck would be appreciated.
Sorry for the wall of text, and thanks for all the discussion.
EDIT: I knew I forgot about something. I think Warping Wail deserves some testing in the sideboard and I've been playing with it for a couple weeks. The card is so versatile and that fits the deck pretty well, there are so many creatures in modern that can be exiled with it (and on turn two for 2 mana, 1 being colorless, it enables processors), and it seriously catches people off-guard when you are countering sorceries as a B/W deck. They will not play around Warping Wail and that is to our advantage.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
Guess I've been playing Blight Herder incorrectly this whole time! I actually prefer to blink Tidehollow after processing it's exiled card for more value, and with enough mana and exiled cards (or a relic) you can pretty much lock the opponent out of the game. TKS doesn't work as well because they draw when he leaves vs returning the exiled card.
I totally feel you on Mind Stone, I think for different applications of the deck different cards work well maindeck. It wasn't my cup of tea, but I can see with your meta and build how it can shine and bring a lot of consistency to T3 TKS or T4 Smasher.
Even with 2x Ghost Quarter maindeck the Tron match is near unwinnable (1-2 today vs GR during lunch) because they have so many ways to tutor for missing tron parts and unlike Death and Taxes or Eldrazi and Taxes we have no way to reuse them nor any way to prevent them from getting a basic. I Quartered twice on his Tower in game 2, and he just tutored them right back up while my board remained underdeveloped due to not expanding on mana. Sea Gate just feels like it's so much better. I run out of cards into the late game pretty much every game unless I'm holding back a removal spell.
Thanks for the feedback and keep up the good work! I'm enjoying this deck quite a bit so far.
BUDGET DECK BUILDER SINCE 93'
Modern ------------------------- WU Azorius Titan Midrange
Commander ------------------- WUG Derevi, Empyrial Tactician
***Are you looking for cards priced below TCG NM "LOW" and with FREE SHIPPING? - Click HERE! for my sales thread - 485 Feedback 100% positive!***
Fair points, I am fan of rest for the weary with the burn decks and probably against 8whack. I always feel that if I make it past turn 4, I will win the game. I would definitely try cutting it for blessed alliance once it comes out.
The gemstone caverns and eternal scourge interaction is nice on paper but I feel that gemstone caverns will just be a plain wastes the majority of the time. I would rather have a ghost quarter or pretty much any other utility land instead of gemstone caverns. Our mana base is not too bad.
Here is a list of resopnses to your points.
We both agree about the tron matchup and we play really similar decks. Tidehollow and displacer are really strong. Displacer can really take over the games sometimes and has helped my matchup against gavony township.
Maybe we should take some advice from the bant eldrazi deck and run some eldrazi mimic in the sideboard. It would allow us to apply a lot of pressure and would even help out against scapeshift (which is gaining in popularity) and other non-interactive decks.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
vs. Grixis Midrange: (midrange/control)
2-0 [1-0]
SIDE IN: Pithing Needle x2 / SIDE OUT: Sorin
OP: Relic of Progenitus, Lingering Souls, Thoughtseize
UP: nothing comes to mind
Notes: A good player with a good deck but he had an unfavorable match. Relic is always good against Snapcaster and K Command.
vs. Mono-R Burn: (spell-aggro)
2-0 [2-0]
SIDE IN: Rest for the Weary x2, Timely Reinforcements, Ratchet Bomb x2 / SIDE OUT: Thoughtseixe x4, Unmaking
OP: Smasher
UP: n/a
Notes: He kind of flooded G1 while I had T3 TKS and T4 Smasher. In G2 I stabilized at 1 life, cast Rest for the Weary, and Smashed in for victory.
vs. RG Tron: (ramp/control)
2-1 [3-0]
SIDE IN: Stony Silence x2, Pithing Needle x2, Extraction x3, Unmaking / SIDE OUT: Relic x4, Souls x2, Sorin
OP: Thoughtseize, TKS, Smasher
UP: Lingering Souls
Notes: Lost G1 after stalling at 4 mana with a hand full of Herders and Smashers. I took G2 on a T1 Thoughtseize followed by TKS on both T3 and T4. A similar line won me G3, but this time my hate played out as well, with a Needle and Stony slowing him down even further.
vs. Bant Eldrazi: (creature-aggro/midrange)
2-1 [4-0]
SIDE IN: Damnation x2, Pithing Needle x2, Timely Reinforcements / SIDE OUT: Sorin, Lingering Souls x1, Unmaking, Strangler x1
OP: Disruption, Removal, Ghost Quarter
UP: n/a
Notes: Eldrazi Displacer does tons of work in the Bant build but I was able to overcome it with lots of discard and targeted removal, plus Pithing Needle. In G3 I Ghost Quartered his Temple during his draw step--the same draw step where he drew his last basic land. Ha ha ha. This guy was new to his deck and I am not so sure I have the upper hand in this match; they are big and fast.
vs. Grixis Delver: (tempo/control)
0-2 [4-1]
SIDE IN: Extraction x3 SIDE OUT: Sorin, Strangler x1
OP: nothing for me
UP: my lands
Notes: Mana flood in G1 plus mana screw in G2 plus zero Relics in-hand all match = I lose. In G2 I was very frustrated after Thoughtseizing him T1 and seeing two Polluted Deltas because i planned to Extract them after he cracked the first in my T2 end step--but he didn't do that. He played the second before cracking either of them. He played it that way because he had no reason to crack earlier--worked out pretty well for him, all things considered, especially after he played a third Delta on T4. I beat this fella on Monday but tonight he was 10-0 in games, undefeated.
Thoughts: Fewer players tonight because of the pre-release. I'm still convinced this deck will be even better after EMN becomes legal for play. Looking forward to it, in fact.
Regarding the Tron match: I agree that Ghost Quarter is not usually enough by itself, but it is a line of play that can pay off sometimes. If you can follow up by Extracting a Tron land, you're unlikely to lose the game. It's bad, but I side in eight cards for this match now (none of them exclusively for Tron) and though it is unfavorable it is not unwinnable with some luck.
WG G/W Tron GW
BG G/B Tron GB
GG Mono G Tron GG
RG G/R Tron GR
My deck right now http://www.ligamagic.com.br/?view=decks/view&id=381911
Maybe I put two Duress and one Aven Mindcensor in the board in place of the three Surgical Extractions I currently run. It's possible that these could be a better plan for Tron and all the Scapeshift/Titanshift/Through The Breach/RG Valakut variants that give this deck trouble.
Pros: Duress and Mindcensor are both good against each of those decks by themselves; unlike Extraction, they don't need set-up to be good, so they should be more reliable. Mindcensor adds a little bit of a clock, and would be good against Chord or Evolution decks, or against Nahiri's ultimate (assuming we can play it around counterspells). It synergizes well with Ghost Quarter. Duress could come in G2/3 for Thoughtseize, and provide pain-free disruption against Burn, 8 Whack, etc.
Cons: Have to plan ahead and leave mana up for Mindcensor. Extraction is much better against Dredge and Living End and can be cast for "free" with its Phyrexian mana symbol. When it hits a Tron land or a combo piece it is essentially game over for our opponent. Extraction powers our Processors even when the Relics have been sided out.
Thoughts? Overall, I would say Extraction has a lower floor and higher ceiling than these options. I love Surgical Extraction but I am always trying to find ways to increase the deck's competitive edge, even by small degrees. However I think that a lot of careful testing would be needed to verify which angle is a better overall choice in an open meta.
Turn 1/2 mimic
Turn 2/3 thought-knot or strangler attack for 3 or 4
Turn 3/4 thought-knot, smasher, or herder attack for 7 - 14
Turn 4 - They are dead.
Against tron I would side out the relics and some lingering souls and bring in:
anguished unmaking, 3x mimics, and pithing needle naming oblivion stone or karn
I do like duress though. I feel like there are better options than aven mindcensor.
Why do you run damnation and ratchet bomb in the side?
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
Damnation is for all the creature swarm decks, regardless of creature size (e.g. from Elves to Kiki-Chord to Living End or Bant Eldrazi). Ratchet Bomb takes the place of Engineered Explosives, which would be a much better choice IF it could get to 3 easily. But it can't in this deck. Bomb hits lots of creatures in these kinds of aggro matches too, but it also hits Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, and assorted planeswalkers. I've ticked it up to 4 waiting for a Nahiri to hit the field before, and that is not such a bad play, it turns out.
I went 3-1 tonight for 5th of 32 players.
2-0 vs. UB Eldrazi/Tezzeret brew: (control/brew) [1-0]
SIDE IN: 2x Pithing Needle, Unmaking / SIDE OUT: Sorin, 2x Strangler
OP: TKS
UP: n/a
Notes: This was the first Modern tourney for this fella and his brew went down easily.
1-2 vs. RG Tron: (ramp/control) [1-1]
SIDE IN: 2x Stony Silence, 2x Pithing Needle, 3x Extraction, 1x Unmaking / SIDE OUT: 4x Relic, 3x Lingering Souls, Go for the Throat
OP: Needle, TKS/Thoughtseize
UP: Ghost Quarter
Notes: In G1, recognizing my opponent and the deck he would present, I kept an opener with 2x Ghost Quarter, 2x Relic, Temple, Lingering Souls, and Reshaper. On both T2 and T3 I GQ'ed his lands to keep him off Tron, sandbagging a Temple to cast a Reshaper on T4. Which I was able to do, but I was not able to prevent him from Sylvan Scrying three times (!) into Tron, for Karn, at which point--with one creature and two lands in play, and 20 life remaining--I ceded. In other words, the GQ-only plan failed miserably for me against Tron. In G2, I mulled to 6 and kept 2x Caves, 2x Smasher, Needle, and Stony, scrying a Temple on top. T1 Needle naming Karn --> T2 Stony --> T3 TKS (drew into it) --> T4 and T5 Smasher shut him down completely for an easy win. But in G3 I stalled after my opening two lands, until T6 finally brought me a third land. I was way too slow to have any hope in this game. I also made a serious mistake in this match, and killed a World Breaker instead of exiling it with Unmaking, forgetting that he could get it back from the graveyard by saccing a land. Not sure it would have mattered for the end result, but it was dumb nonetheless.
2-0 vs. Jeskai Control (no Nahiri): (control) [2-1]
SIDE IN: 3x Extraction, SIDE OUT: Sorin, Go for the Throat (but see notes for siding in G3)
OP: Thoughtseize/TKS, Cavern of Souls, Blight Herder, Shambling Vent
UP: Surgical Extraction
Notes: In G1 lots of hand disruption plus Cavern allowed me to dominate the match from the get-go. I cast Herder just in time to take two Ancestral Visions... hahahahaha! Poor guy. In G2 I flooded and lost to his Elspeth pumping a sole Snapcaster, despite a very strong opener, because I couldn't apply any pressure after drawing only lands. In G3 (SIDE OUT: 3x Extraction, SIDE IN: 2x Pithing Needle and Unmaking), after a flurry of opening activity followed by Supreme Verdict, a topdeck war of dead draws on both sides meant that Shambling Vent was able to win the game single-handedly.
2-1 vs. Blue Moon: (control) [3-1]
SIDE IN: 3x Extraction, 2x Ratchet Bomb, 1x Unmaking / SIDE OUT: 3x Strangler, Sorin, Go for the Throat
OP: Cavern of Souls, Thoughtseize/TKS, Blight Herder: Keranos and Boom//Bust for him
UP: n/a
Notes: I did not see Blood Moon during the match, but was prepared to play around it nonetheless and don't think I would have had too much trouble. As usual against blue permission/Snapcaster builds, I felt strongly favored in this match. My sole Cavern was a big deal in G1 and led to an easy win. But in G2 a grindy game led to him casting a Boom // Bust for 6 mana after he already had Keranos in play, which was enough to give him the win. In G3 a slow game led to me using Extraction to enable Blight Herder with tokens, which was enough to get there. In this last game I was able to Unmake his sided-in Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker which took away his last hope for victory.
1x Cavern of Souls
4x Caves of Koilos
4x Eldrazi Temple
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Godless Shrine
3x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Shambling Vent
2x Swamp
1x Vault of the Archangel
Planeswalker (1)
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
3x Blight Herder
1x Matter Reshaper
4x Reality Smasher
4x Thought-Knot Seer
3x Wasteland Strangler
Instant (6)
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Go for the Throat
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery (8)
4x Lingering Souls
4x Thoughtseize
Artifact (6)
2x Mind Stone
4x Relic of Progenitus
1x Anguished Unmaking
2x Damnation
2x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Rest for the Weary
2x Stony Silence
3x Surgical Extraction
1x Timely Reinforcements
Thoughts: Yuck, I am sick of Tron. However, at this point, I have to say that right now--before the meta shifts to accommodate the new EMN cards that is--I think the main 60 is exactly right for what I am trying to do with the build. My one spell flex slot is Reshaper, and my only land flex slot is Cavern. Meanwhile the side is great for an open meta like the one I play in--but could maybe stand a little fiddling (as always). I am probably going to try changing the sideboard as detailed above; but it will be a while, because I am about to take a long vacation. However, I plan to play a couple nights at game stores in different cities on my upcoming road trip, and I will take notes, and fill in any interested readers on my results, as soon as I have a chance.
By the way: For the past few months, I have been using a notebook I developed to keep track of my tourney results. It is invaluable for writing play reports like these, but even more importantly, it helps me improve my game because it allows me to take careful notes quickly and easily. I am about to pay for a run of professionally printed versions of my notebook, and will try selling them locally. I am also probably going to list them on Etsy and/or eBay for anyone else that wants to keep records of their competitive results. I attached an image of a notes page if anyone is interested. I definitely think that taking notes and writing these reports has improved my attention to the nuances of the deck and its matchups, thereby improving my success with it.
Cheers to all! Here's to good draws and shrewd plays.