1-1-1 vs. Mono-W Humans: Shoulda ceded G1 faster, he had a nuts draw and I really never got going. In G2 his guys were too little to swing into my bigger guys and I was able to 3-for-1 him off a Vault activation he didn't see coming when he multi-blocked TKS. We ran out of time in G3 but since I had two Damnations in hand he would not have been able to come back.
1-2 vs. Grixis Midrange: Lost G2/3 on sheer variance; a mull to 5 in G2 followed by three missed land drops meant I didn't really get to play; my only threat was Lingering Souls (I drew two) but his Izzet Staticaster simply neutralizes Spirit tokens for free. G3 was a repeat with me stuck at three lands, Lingering Souls x2 in hand, and Staticaster on the other side of the board. He runs one in the side and got it early both games while I got manascrewed. Well, it happens.
2-0 vs. Naya Big Zoo/Liege Rhino: easy beats for me but I didn't take notes and don't really recall the match.
This seems like a good primer and a funn deck to play.
I higly prefer midrange/slow deck that has a lot of interactions. This deck certanly has that.
Why not the 4th blight herder, and how is the blood vampier working out?
Eh, Blood Baron isn't great. He is so slow to land, slower even than our other cards. In Eldraziland he is kind of small. He is extremely difficult to remove, though. Batterskull is also hard to remove--unless your opponent has Kolaghan's Command or Qasali Pridemage. I really want lifelink in this slot but these 5 drops rarely see the battlefield. I just can't seem to make up my mind here. Just lately I am thinking I might try a single Eldrazi Displacer in this slot since I haven't seen Burn around my LGS for a while. I'm not too sure Displacer fits the curve that well, though. It might die too easily before it gets value. It's certainly a much better Bolt target than the other cards I am casting at 3 mana, that's for sure. Kalitas is also an option but with so many exile effects he hasn't made too many bodies for me in past attempts, and again a 3/4 is not real impressive in this shell. Whip of Erebos can't attack, its second ability is a nonbo with Relic (I already get tangled up with the Relic/Lingering Souls nonbo sometimes), and I am sure I want some kind of active pressure here in the 15th creature slot. Maybe something great will show up in the next set.
Blight Herder is amazing when it processes, but that can be harder than you'd expect. Unlike Strangler, a single Path or Thought-Knot Seer does not turn it on, so it is more variable. And a vanilla 4/5 for 5 mana is not a great bargain. It is very common for me to resolve Herder only to have it immediately removed (Path, Terminate, Dismember etc.), leaving only the tokens to show for it. Without the tokens that is a real tempo loss. I do not think four is correct, from my testing.
In my opinion, the 2 drop slot is kind of special in this deck. There are a number of reasons why I end up playing one or two CMC=1 spells on T2 in many games:
There is a lot of lifeloss, so I rarely fetch for a T1 play, instead oftentimes opting to take 1 from Flats for a T2 dual
Shambling Vent is usually my T1 play if I have it in my opener, which means I often have a Relic or Thoughtseize in hand that I couldn't play T1
Path is not as bad for us early as it is for some other builds, because of our slow early game, hand disruption, and the fact that it enables Strangler
The good spell options for this deck at 2 mana are pretty limited in this format, really
The Temples mess with the curve, enabling a rare T2 TKS or a more common T2 Strangler. The latter option is good on the play vs. control builds, Tron, and any deck where you want to start getting damage across quickly, and care less about removal.
I do like casting T2 Mind Stone into Relic, though.
I agree that the build's main weakness is its slowness. Most games I lose, I lose because my curve was too high for the lands I drew. I still want a threat in creature slot #15 but I really want lower CMC so it's not dead-in-hand early game or when I am waiting to draw into lands. Ayli is somewhat harder to kill, and is a much better attacker and blocker than Sculler, and could provide some lifegain. But T2 BW is far from certain. Brimaz passes the Bolt test but WW can still be a real problem at T3. I want to like Matter Reshaper and Eldrazi Displacer but they still don't feel like a lock. Reshaper has the advantage of replacing itself and possibly (40% chance) flipping a land to help get to 5 for the big guys. Displacer is a late-game powerhouse. Neither is Bolt, Inquisition of Kozilek, or Abrupt Decay-proof, though. I've also toyed with the idea of just throwing a 25th land in there and going to 61, maybe a second Vault or a singleton Fetid Heath. But this is probably a bad idea.
I think I will try one Reshaper in my current Batterskull/Blood Baron slot to lower the curve and keep cards in hand/possibly add some ramp, without making myself weaker to bad mana draws. Reshaper also synergizes with a switch to O-Ring over Unmaking so I am going to try that out as well.
I would not get rid of Sorin myself right now; he is pretty bad when he's all by himself out there, but with Spirit tokens he is amazing. He can give Smasher lifelink on the same turn we cast it, unlike Vault. He is key to my late game turn-the-corner plans in my build.
EDIT: I had a huge blow-out playing against Grixis. Opponent had a Ancestral Vision with one counter suspended. I play Wasteland Strangler targeting Ancestral Vision. In response, he [card]Lightning Bolt[\card]s the Strangler and the ability fizzles. Didn't know that was possible.
Well that isn't possible. Killing your Strangler does nothing to the triggered ability that was placed on the stack. The ability only fizzles if some other effect makes its target illegal. The ability is countered only by an effect that says "Counter target triggered ability."
Reference (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/):
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, "Timing and Priority." The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
608.2b. If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. Illegal targets, if any, won't be affected by parts of a resolving spell's effect for which they're illegal. Other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. If the spell or ability creates any continuous effects that affect game rules (see rule 613.10), those effects don't apply to illegal targets. If part of the effect requires information about an illegal target, it fails to determine any such information. Any part of the effect that requires that information won't happen.
Another point in favour of Sorin however is, that he can still gain us life under a Blood Moon.
Spinning the case further, Ancestral vison casters can always remove the target of Strangler in response to us choosing a target in order to prevent Strangler from processing Ancestral Vision.
Sorin can gain us life under Blood Moon, but only if we can cast him under Blood Moon!
An opponent can indeed remove Strangler's target to make the process fizzle, but unless I was targeting a token or something else on my side of the board, I would consider that a win as well, as it is still a 2-for-1 play in our favor.
I think the processing of the AV happens no matter what. The part about a creature getting a -3/-3 only happens after the processing of ancestral vision (or whatever) occurs. The word IF in the rules text dictates the timing in this case.
So by all means, please bolt my Wasteland Strangler that was already going to die to its own ability. The AV is still a goner.
If it doesn't work that way, it's entirely nonsensical. *Edit* wow, further digging indicates you can, in fact, cause the processing to fizzle by removing the target for the -3/-3. That's a poorly worded mechanic from an intuitive perspective, and I'm struggling to see why they couldn't have made it work a bit closer to how you'd expect it to work upon, you know, reading the card. Grammatically, prefacing a statement with "If" indicates a triggered ability, but not so according to the comprehensive rules, which only recognize "when, whenever, or at" as the words indicating a triggered ability. And sometimes "becomes"... Seems messy and/or confusing to link two events when the rules are already adept at handling them as individual actions. What am I missing? Why do this? The mental gymnastics required to retroactively loop the result of a choice you've made to the making of said choice is the goofy Catch 22 stuff that I thought modern magic rules were trying to avoid. Gimme back my damage using the stack at this point!!
I played a match against Grishoalbrand and did not really know what I should do. Game 1 he has turn 4 Grishoalbrand, attacking twice for 21 damage. Game 2 I mulligan to 4 but am able to Thoughtseize his Grishoalbrand and then remove it with Surgical Extraction. I saw in his deck that he played to Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and one Kozilek, the great distortion. We both topdeck for a while and he answers my threads and finds a Kozilek eventually. Hellbent with 4 lands in play plus a Vault of the Archangel, I use Sorin's -2 to make another 2/2 Vampire. He goes for the attack, I block and he uses Golgari Charm to regenerate his creature. I feel we are not favoured in this matchup. How should we play it?
I played 6 games against Bant Eldrazi so far and it felt that our deck was favoured. In the early game we can pick the threats from their hand with Thoughtseize/Inquisition. Then we usually can stall out the game with Lingering Souls and Path to Exile, or putting equally large threats on the board until they are hellbent and we get a Vault of the Archangel online. I closed one game having enough mana for multiple activations of Eldrazi Displacer and flickering Wasteland Strangler to clean up their board and Thought-Knot Seer to prevent them from drawing Path to Exile.
EDIT: deaddrift: we should make your updated Primer the first page of the thread.
Thanks for the vote of confidence, johnnyscottish. I have a request in to the mods and the thread creator about updating post #1; hopefully that will be a thing sometime this week. I will need a banner though, unless all concerned are OK with me re-using the current one.
BTW I see that at least one sheep in Scotland is white, on one side, at least some of the time... good to know
When playing Grishoalbrand, we want hand disruption and Relics plus instant speed removal. As in most matchups vs. combo/graveyard decks we are already pre-boarded pretty well in G1, though this is one of the cases in which Inquisition of Kozilek is worse than Thoughtseize. In game 2/3, I would go full control mode and cede the beatdown role to them. Sounds to me like you did things right and just got beat by variance there with the Golgari Charm. In fact I don't think that card features in most lists (nor Kozilek, for that matter) and I'd be surprised if the guy had more than one. Also, thanks for your input about the Bant Eldrazi matchup.
I have been thinking about your Expedition Map (vs. my Mind Stone) approach and like that Map makes the lands more of a toolbox; I think your build is more able to fit in Sea Gate Wreckage and Bojuka Bog than mine is, because you can cut a Ghost Quarter since you can find one if needed. However Mind Stone ramps where Map does not, and cantrips late game, where Map needs a useful target to be relevant late game (though I bet this is usually not to hard to find). I think if I were on your build I might want a single Wastes though, since Blood Moon will shut you down unless you are able to cast one of your two Herders with processing value.
CALL TO ALL READERS: Any other comments about matchups or card choices? I want to make sure the primer is as useful as possible.
Never tried it, it always seems kind of narrow and/or slow to me, plus I wasn't so sure about giving my opponents more cards. You like it? Sideboard? What cards or decks do you like it against?
I tested as a 1 off, and the value is real, in 5 MU i exiled more then 1 creature 2x and more then 2 once, and about the tokens you give then, they have to pay 2 mana to activate, this gave me some time . I might got lucky this weekend, but who knows.
Thanks SBurani. What matchups would you want to see it in? Also, and unrelated, do you play on cockatrice? I see a lot of Brazilian players there, or at least a lot of players with the flag next to their names.
I went 3-1 tonight for 4th of 45 players at my LGS.
2-1 vs. 8-Whack: Both games I won were because he was not able to put together the kind of explosive start that he needs against us. In this match, we need to prioritize removing Legion Loyalist above all other cards. It completely neuters our token blockers. In the two matches I won, it was lifegain (from Sorin in G1 and Timely Reinforcements G3) that allowed me to turn the corner and close out the game.
2-0 vs. Grixis Control: As usual this was a good matchup for me and a bad one for him. Didn't take notes, but suffice it to say that Blight Herder and Lingering Souls tend to destroy counterspells and one-for-one removal, while these controlly blue decks tend not to have enough threats themselves to get through our own removal and our chumps. Though I didn't encounter it tonight, watch out for Izzet Staticaster post-board when playing against any URx deck. Usually they only have one, but it is murder.
2-1 vs. Mardu Midrange/Tokens: Soulfire Grand Master, Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer, Lingering Souls, and lots of Bolt/Helix/Thoughtseize/IoK etc. was what his deck was all about. Our dueling Spirit tokens were pretty much an even match, but I was able to remove his other creatures before he could get value from them, and our big guys are better than his big guys. Having so much of our deck pass the Bolt and Inquisition of Kozilek tests is a big deal in matches like this. The game I lost was close, and after I mulled to five and then had my sole source of C (it was Vault of the Archangel) Fulminatored away, stranding Seer and Smasher in hand.
0-2 vs. Little Kid Abzan: In G1 he flashed in an Archangel Avacyn to kill my Smasher, and ended up winning after many more turns as I was unable to recover. (This card is unreal. I have been considering Avacyn myself, but think it is not a great fit for Processors unless I want to cut another 5-drop.) In G2 he Thoughtseized me, saw a hand full of amazing power, and then swung into my four Spirit tokens with a Goyf, Hierarch, and four Spirit tokens of his own... backed up by Zealous Persecution. Total blowout. Never have I wished so badly that I were playing ZP in my own deck. Still, not sure it is the right call for our build. This card may be best in a known meta with lots of X/1s in it. I would love to read others' experiences using Zealous Persecution in Processors. Right now it is not in the primer, but maybe it should be.
Thoughts: I took Baron out tonight, and replaced him with a Reshaper. This was a very good call. Baron and Batterskull are good for lifegain, but are too slow in a deck that already loses because it can be too slow. Reshaper can come down T2 with a little luck and is very good in that slot. And it passes--so to speak--the Bolt test, in a way that Displacer does not. I also swapped back from Anguished Unmaking--which I have been very conflicted about for a long time--to Oblivion Ring. (Since I took out a life-gainer, I took out a life-drainer as well.) I know I want non-creature permanent removal in the mainboard, but I haven't decided which one-of is the best fit. I also am considering Ratchet Bomb in this slot.
I'm a little surprised that this deck does not show up placing in larger, competitive events. It feels to me like it is a secret deck, because I believe that it has real game against a large majority of the format. I play 2x/week in the largest Modern tourneys in town (~25-40+ players) and frequently on cockatrice as well, and I certainly win my share of matches, despite being an only moderately skilled player, and despite the fact that because I've been playing the deck for so long, all the regulars at my shop know exactly what I am up to. Overall, I would characterize the deck's main weakness as being one of mana availability. Two-land openers that are full of Blight Herders, Thought-Knot Seers, and Reality Smashers can be very tough to convert. However in the late game topdeck wars another land is the last thing I want to see. Because of this, I think that Mind Stone may be a better choice than Map, for the way my build and play style work out. Of course, Map-->Sea Gate Wreckage might be a pretty strong play too, better than the Mind Stone plan. Food for thought.
I agree with you Deaddrift about this deck being secretive. I'm also very surprised by its disappearance. It came so fast when it was discovered and it left just as quickly. Flavor of the month right? Anyway, I rebuilt this deck and think it can be great for FNM. Catches a lot of people off guard with main deck GY hate. It is very fun to play but the one thing I wish it had more of was card draw and filtering those draws. I know relic exists but it can run out of gas so quickly and stall before it hits 5 lands. I want to mention that I am running a 1 of Blind Obedience. Just to see how extort and tapped artifacts + creatures affect our matchups. It did win me a game since they couldn't play out creatures to block my attacks. Also helps ease the lifeloss from painlands/thoughtseizes. Then I also got the idea of running Stonecloaker for flash bounce shenanigans and recast for extort triggers.
Declaration in Stone does seem to be a key card since it fits the curve and exiles multiples which is fantastic for this deck. I could care less if I give them extra draw options. The important part is neutralizing the board state to not get overrun. The only deck I can think of offhand where it would be bad is Affinity. We don't want to give them replacement artifacts or card draw. Good sideboard card option though. Sorcery speed multi-path to exile is very nice. I'd pick up copies now before it becomes a Modern staple in white(gut feeling).
Commander GUR Maelstrom Wanderer BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith RRR Feldon of the Third Path WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Well, the updated primer is live on page one. Go look at it, if you like! Many thanks to MTGS users for helping me build and play this excellent and fun deck, and then for help laying out for others what I think I know about this archetype. As always, feedback is welcome and changes will be made wherever needed. Cheers to all!
Thanks for the great primer deaddrift, and to everyone who continues to keep this thread alive. I've been lurking, and enjoy playing with the deck. Switched from Eldrazi D&T because this feels like more my play style. I don't get to practice modern much, so keeping up with content like this thread is my primary way of learning about the deck and how it interacts with other popular archetypes. Definitely wish there were more folks out there playing processors...I'd love to watch someone do a stream. Hint, hint.
Fast MU, decks like Zoo, 8Whack, decks that usually spits there hand into 2 or more identical creatures. No, only in paper. When i want to test something i usually use a proxy, but there are indeed a lot of Brazilian players there.
I think the new Thalia will considerably slow down our reality smashers.
I could see it in the sideboard to bring in against aggro and coco decks, but I don't think this is what the BW processor deck needs. The three-drop spot is already clogged with lingering souls, wasteland strangler, matter reshaper, and thought-knot (sometimes).
I think the new Thalia will considerably slow down our reality smashers.
I could see it in the sideboard to bring in against aggro and coco decks, but I don't think this is what the BW processor deck needs. The three-drop spot is already clogged with lingering souls, wasteland strangler, matter reshaper, and thought-knot (sometimes).
I think the new Thalia will considerably slow down our reality smashers.
I could see it in the sideboard to bring in against aggro and coco decks, but I don't think this is what the BW processor deck needs. The three-drop spot is already clogged with lingering souls, wasteland strangler, matter reshaper, and thought-knot (sometimes).
The creatuess and lands are fom you OP
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I see this as being annoying to play against. The vast majority of our lands are non-basic also. This card will make the hatebears matchup really tough.
Thalia II looks sweet, but I'm not so sure this is the right home for her. I agree that she is competing with some other strong cards for us--including TKS, but also Smasher and Herder, in a Mind Stone build--in the T3 slot.
A month or two ago, I tried a couple local tourneys with one Eldrazi Displacer, but I took him back out because he never really performed for me. However, I have been very happy with Matter Reshaper. Right now I am liking Reshaper a lot and wish I could fit a second one in for more testing.
The relevant difference is the guaranteed value if it resolves. Displacer can get Bolted before it can do anything, especially if its ability is competing with being able to cast cards in hand, meaning sometimes you never get to use it. But, unless it's exiled, Reshaper will always replace itself with some other card after removal, making it "free" (kind of) to play. On Monday, an opponent K-Commanded my Reshaper on my combat step, returning a dangerous Fulminator Mage to hand. My flip was a Thoughtseize that I used to return Mage to the yard.
My point is this: X/3s and especially X/2s are vulnerable to spot removal in ways our many larger creatures (Seer, Smasher, Herder) are safe from. Our X/1s are vulnerable to sweepers but are terrible spot removal targets. Both Strangler and Reshaper are likely to get value simply by resolving--which by the way they are more likely to do, since they benefit from Cavern of Souls where Thalia Mk. II does not. She dies to almost any form of spot removal there is, including Electrolyze, and she also dies to almost every sweeper effect, without guaranteeing any value. Strangler and Reshaper do not miss value like this... and both can come down on T2.
I am not going to brag about my card-forecasting abilities, by any stretch. I was very wrong about Shambling Vent, for instance, which is much better than I had expected. But to me she looks like she will be much better for the D&T lists, and in play against us (which is what herfs was getting at, I think), than she will be on our side of the table. Just my $.02.
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1-1-1 vs. Mono-W Humans: Shoulda ceded G1 faster, he had a nuts draw and I really never got going. In G2 his guys were too little to swing into my bigger guys and I was able to 3-for-1 him off a Vault activation he didn't see coming when he multi-blocked TKS. We ran out of time in G3 but since I had two Damnations in hand he would not have been able to come back.
1-2 vs. Grixis Midrange: Lost G2/3 on sheer variance; a mull to 5 in G2 followed by three missed land drops meant I didn't really get to play; my only threat was Lingering Souls (I drew two) but his Izzet Staticaster simply neutralizes Spirit tokens for free. G3 was a repeat with me stuck at three lands, Lingering Souls x2 in hand, and Staticaster on the other side of the board. He runs one in the side and got it early both games while I got manascrewed. Well, it happens.
2-0 vs. Naya Big Zoo/Liege Rhino: easy beats for me but I didn't take notes and don't really recall the match.
Eh, Blood Baron isn't great. He is so slow to land, slower even than our other cards. In Eldraziland he is kind of small. He is extremely difficult to remove, though. Batterskull is also hard to remove--unless your opponent has Kolaghan's Command or Qasali Pridemage. I really want lifelink in this slot but these 5 drops rarely see the battlefield. I just can't seem to make up my mind here. Just lately I am thinking I might try a single Eldrazi Displacer in this slot since I haven't seen Burn around my LGS for a while. I'm not too sure Displacer fits the curve that well, though. It might die too easily before it gets value. It's certainly a much better Bolt target than the other cards I am casting at 3 mana, that's for sure. Kalitas is also an option but with so many exile effects he hasn't made too many bodies for me in past attempts, and again a 3/4 is not real impressive in this shell. Whip of Erebos can't attack, its second ability is a nonbo with Relic (I already get tangled up with the Relic/Lingering Souls nonbo sometimes), and I am sure I want some kind of active pressure here in the 15th creature slot. Maybe something great will show up in the next set.
Blight Herder is amazing when it processes, but that can be harder than you'd expect. Unlike Strangler, a single Path or Thought-Knot Seer does not turn it on, so it is more variable. And a vanilla 4/5 for 5 mana is not a great bargain. It is very common for me to resolve Herder only to have it immediately removed (Path, Terminate, Dismember etc.), leaving only the tokens to show for it. Without the tokens that is a real tempo loss. I do not think four is correct, from my testing.
I agree that the build's main weakness is its slowness. Most games I lose, I lose because my curve was too high for the lands I drew. I still want a threat in creature slot #15 but I really want lower CMC so it's not dead-in-hand early game or when I am waiting to draw into lands. Ayli is somewhat harder to kill, and is a much better attacker and blocker than Sculler, and could provide some lifegain. But T2 BW is far from certain. Brimaz passes the Bolt test but WW can still be a real problem at T3. I want to like Matter Reshaper and Eldrazi Displacer but they still don't feel like a lock. Reshaper has the advantage of replacing itself and possibly (40% chance) flipping a land to help get to 5 for the big guys. Displacer is a late-game powerhouse. Neither is Bolt, Inquisition of Kozilek, or Abrupt Decay-proof, though. I've also toyed with the idea of just throwing a 25th land in there and going to 61, maybe a second Vault or a singleton Fetid Heath. But this is probably a bad idea.
I think I will try one Reshaper in my current Batterskull/Blood Baron slot to lower the curve and keep cards in hand/possibly add some ramp, without making myself weaker to bad mana draws. Reshaper also synergizes with a switch to O-Ring over Unmaking so I am going to try that out as well.
I would not get rid of Sorin myself right now; he is pretty bad when he's all by himself out there, but with Spirit tokens he is amazing. He can give Smasher lifelink on the same turn we cast it, unlike Vault. He is key to my late game turn-the-corner plans in my build.
Well that isn't possible. Killing your Strangler does nothing to the triggered ability that was placed on the stack. The ability only fizzles if some other effect makes its target illegal. The ability is countered only by an effect that says "Counter target triggered ability."
Reference (http://yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/):
603.3. Once an ability has triggered, its controller puts it on the stack as an object that's not a card the next time a player would receive priority. See rule 116, "Timing and Priority." The ability becomes the topmost object on the stack. It has the text of the ability that created it, and no other characteristics. It remains on the stack until it's countered, it resolves, a rule causes it to be removed from the stack, or an effect moves it elsewhere.
608.2b. If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether the targets are still legal. A target that's no longer in the zone it was in when it was targeted is illegal. Other changes to the game state may cause a target to no longer be legal; for example, its characteristics may have changed or an effect may have changed the text of the spell. If the source of an ability has left the zone it was in, its last known information is used during this process. The spell or ability is countered if all its targets, for every instance of the word "target," are now illegal. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve normally. Illegal targets, if any, won't be affected by parts of a resolving spell's effect for which they're illegal. Other parts of the effect for which those targets are not illegal may still affect them. If the spell or ability creates any continuous effects that affect game rules (see rule 613.10), those effects don't apply to illegal targets. If part of the effect requires information about an illegal target, it fails to determine any such information. Any part of the effect that requires that information won't happen.
Keep taking out suspended AV's with confidence.
An opponent can indeed remove Strangler's target to make the process fizzle, but unless I was targeting a token or something else on my side of the board, I would consider that a win as well, as it is still a 2-for-1 play in our favor.
So by all means, please bolt my Wasteland Strangler that was already going to die to its own ability. The AV is still a goner.
If it doesn't work that way, it's entirely nonsensical. *Edit* wow, further digging indicates you can, in fact, cause the processing to fizzle by removing the target for the -3/-3. That's a poorly worded mechanic from an intuitive perspective, and I'm struggling to see why they couldn't have made it work a bit closer to how you'd expect it to work upon, you know, reading the card. Grammatically, prefacing a statement with "If" indicates a triggered ability, but not so according to the comprehensive rules, which only recognize "when, whenever, or at" as the words indicating a triggered ability. And sometimes "becomes"... Seems messy and/or confusing to link two events when the rules are already adept at handling them as individual actions. What am I missing? Why do this? The mental gymnastics required to retroactively loop the result of a choice you've made to the making of said choice is the goofy Catch 22 stuff that I thought modern magic rules were trying to avoid. Gimme back my damage using the stack at this point!!
BTW I see that at least one sheep in Scotland is white, on one side, at least some of the time... good to know
When playing Grishoalbrand, we want hand disruption and Relics plus instant speed removal. As in most matchups vs. combo/graveyard decks we are already pre-boarded pretty well in G1, though this is one of the cases in which Inquisition of Kozilek is worse than Thoughtseize. In game 2/3, I would go full control mode and cede the beatdown role to them. Sounds to me like you did things right and just got beat by variance there with the Golgari Charm. In fact I don't think that card features in most lists (nor Kozilek, for that matter) and I'd be surprised if the guy had more than one. Also, thanks for your input about the Bant Eldrazi matchup.
I have been thinking about your Expedition Map (vs. my Mind Stone) approach and like that Map makes the lands more of a toolbox; I think your build is more able to fit in Sea Gate Wreckage and Bojuka Bog than mine is, because you can cut a Ghost Quarter since you can find one if needed. However Mind Stone ramps where Map does not, and cantrips late game, where Map needs a useful target to be relevant late game (though I bet this is usually not to hard to find). I think if I were on your build I might want a single Wastes though, since Blood Moon will shut you down unless you are able to cast one of your two Herders with processing value.
CALL TO ALL READERS: Any other comments about matchups or card choices? I want to make sure the primer is as useful as possible.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
I went 3-1 tonight for 4th of 45 players at my LGS.
2-1 vs. 8-Whack: Both games I won were because he was not able to put together the kind of explosive start that he needs against us. In this match, we need to prioritize removing Legion Loyalist above all other cards. It completely neuters our token blockers. In the two matches I won, it was lifegain (from Sorin in G1 and Timely Reinforcements G3) that allowed me to turn the corner and close out the game.
2-0 vs. Grixis Control: As usual this was a good matchup for me and a bad one for him. Didn't take notes, but suffice it to say that Blight Herder and Lingering Souls tend to destroy counterspells and one-for-one removal, while these controlly blue decks tend not to have enough threats themselves to get through our own removal and our chumps. Though I didn't encounter it tonight, watch out for Izzet Staticaster post-board when playing against any URx deck. Usually they only have one, but it is murder.
2-1 vs. Mardu Midrange/Tokens: Soulfire Grand Master, Monastery Mentor, Young Pyromancer, Lingering Souls, and lots of Bolt/Helix/Thoughtseize/IoK etc. was what his deck was all about. Our dueling Spirit tokens were pretty much an even match, but I was able to remove his other creatures before he could get value from them, and our big guys are better than his big guys. Having so much of our deck pass the Bolt and Inquisition of Kozilek tests is a big deal in matches like this. The game I lost was close, and after I mulled to five and then had my sole source of C (it was Vault of the Archangel) Fulminatored away, stranding Seer and Smasher in hand.
0-2 vs. Little Kid Abzan: In G1 he flashed in an Archangel Avacyn to kill my Smasher, and ended up winning after many more turns as I was unable to recover. (This card is unreal. I have been considering Avacyn myself, but think it is not a great fit for Processors unless I want to cut another 5-drop.) In G2 he Thoughtseized me, saw a hand full of amazing power, and then swung into my four Spirit tokens with a Goyf, Hierarch, and four Spirit tokens of his own... backed up by Zealous Persecution. Total blowout. Never have I wished so badly that I were playing ZP in my own deck. Still, not sure it is the right call for our build. This card may be best in a known meta with lots of X/1s in it. I would love to read others' experiences using Zealous Persecution in Processors. Right now it is not in the primer, but maybe it should be.
Thoughts: I took Baron out tonight, and replaced him with a Reshaper. This was a very good call. Baron and Batterskull are good for lifegain, but are too slow in a deck that already loses because it can be too slow. Reshaper can come down T2 with a little luck and is very good in that slot. And it passes--so to speak--the Bolt test, in a way that Displacer does not. I also swapped back from Anguished Unmaking--which I have been very conflicted about for a long time--to Oblivion Ring. (Since I took out a life-gainer, I took out a life-drainer as well.) I know I want non-creature permanent removal in the mainboard, but I haven't decided which one-of is the best fit. I also am considering Ratchet Bomb in this slot.
I'm a little surprised that this deck does not show up placing in larger, competitive events. It feels to me like it is a secret deck, because I believe that it has real game against a large majority of the format. I play 2x/week in the largest Modern tourneys in town (~25-40+ players) and frequently on cockatrice as well, and I certainly win my share of matches, despite being an only moderately skilled player, and despite the fact that because I've been playing the deck for so long, all the regulars at my shop know exactly what I am up to. Overall, I would characterize the deck's main weakness as being one of mana availability. Two-land openers that are full of Blight Herders, Thought-Knot Seers, and Reality Smashers can be very tough to convert. However in the late game topdeck wars another land is the last thing I want to see. Because of this, I think that Mind Stone may be a better choice than Map, for the way my build and play style work out. Of course, Map-->Sea Gate Wreckage might be a pretty strong play too, better than the Mind Stone plan. Food for thought.
Declaration in Stone does seem to be a key card since it fits the curve and exiles multiples which is fantastic for this deck. I could care less if I give them extra draw options. The important part is neutralizing the board state to not get overrun. The only deck I can think of offhand where it would be bad is Affinity. We don't want to give them replacement artifacts or card draw. Good sideboard card option though. Sorcery speed multi-path to exile is very nice. I'd pick up copies now before it becomes a Modern staple in white(gut feeling).
GURB Grixis/Jund Shadow
RBG Dredge
xUx U Ballista Tron
Commander
GUR Maelstrom Wanderer
BWU Sydri, Galvanic Genius
BGB Meren of Clan Nel Toth
WGW Nazahn, Revered Bladesmith
RRR Feldon of the Third Path
WWW Heliod, God of the Sun
Also, good call on the Oblivion Ring, i really dont like this Anguished Unmaking, that was the spot i used Declaration in Stone.
And let us know about your tests with the 3 drops over Baron and BSkull.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
idea is to amass creature with die triggers and get lots of benefits, when they die.
Blight herder's tokens synergize well with blood artist!
4 eldrazi mimic
4 matter reshaper
4 thought-knot seer
4 Blight Herder
4 blood artist
4 doomed traveler
4 lingering souls
4 relic or progenitus
4 inquisition of Kozilek
2 path to exile
2 anguished unmaking
3 westvale abbey
4 endrazi temple
4 tomb of yawgmoth
First Strike
Creatures and non-basic lands your opponents control come into play tapped.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
I could see it in the sideboard to bring in against aggro and coco decks, but I don't think this is what the BW processor deck needs. The three-drop spot is already clogged with lingering souls, wasteland strangler, matter reshaper, and thought-knot (sometimes).
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
The creatures and lands are fom you OP
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
Sorry, I wasn't clear. I see this as being annoying to play against. The vast majority of our lands are non-basic also. This card will make the hatebears matchup really tough.
CBW midrange deck
CBW eldrazi processor deck
CBW bw eldrazi shadow midrange
A month or two ago, I tried a couple local tourneys with one Eldrazi Displacer, but I took him back out because he never really performed for me. However, I have been very happy with Matter Reshaper. Right now I am liking Reshaper a lot and wish I could fit a second one in for more testing.
The relevant difference is the guaranteed value if it resolves. Displacer can get Bolted before it can do anything, especially if its ability is competing with being able to cast cards in hand, meaning sometimes you never get to use it. But, unless it's exiled, Reshaper will always replace itself with some other card after removal, making it "free" (kind of) to play. On Monday, an opponent K-Commanded my Reshaper on my combat step, returning a dangerous Fulminator Mage to hand. My flip was a Thoughtseize that I used to return Mage to the yard.
My point is this: X/3s and especially X/2s are vulnerable to spot removal in ways our many larger creatures (Seer, Smasher, Herder) are safe from. Our X/1s are vulnerable to sweepers but are terrible spot removal targets. Both Strangler and Reshaper are likely to get value simply by resolving--which by the way they are more likely to do, since they benefit from Cavern of Souls where Thalia Mk. II does not. She dies to almost any form of spot removal there is, including Electrolyze, and she also dies to almost every sweeper effect, without guaranteeing any value. Strangler and Reshaper do not miss value like this... and both can come down on T2.
I am not going to brag about my card-forecasting abilities, by any stretch. I was very wrong about Shambling Vent, for instance, which is much better than I had expected. But to me she looks like she will be much better for the D&T lists, and in play against us (which is what herfs was getting at, I think), than she will be on our side of the table. Just my $.02.