Well here is some of me feedback off of alot of playtesting against a range of decks.
Ratchet Bomb main is not such a bad idea. It wins games against decks that we are weaker against, like infect and affinity. It can also be a great aid against any smaller aggro deck as well.
Anguished Unmaking really fills out several holes in the deck. With leyline of sanctity going in the board, it might head there too in some amount from my main.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor I agree that this card is a core card of the deck. I am almost never sad to see him even late in the game, and have had several games that he just completely blew the game out of the water.
Matter Reshaper he is becoming a card that I am liking more and more. He fills a good stall slot against midrange, and also brings in pressure against aggro and control. It is nice really.
Surgical Extraction I am growing more and more to liking this as a maindeck option. More testing is needed though. Might be another option to look at with oblivion sower options.
Grim Discovery Decks that ghost quarter is strong against, and likes to kill out creatures is what I side it in agianst. Otherwise it is like a inferior black like of the loam card lol. It does do the job against decks that like to run very few basics though. (I like to ghost quarter if I can set-up a caves E-temple or something similar)
I'm surprised to hear you're having trouble against Infect and Affinity. For me these are consistently winnable in a best-of-three, Infect in particular.
In both matches, Ghost Quarter and Lingering Souls are your best friends and should be your main looked-for cards in your opener/early turns. Both Souls and GQ are great against Inkmoth, and Souls is for chumps against Infect and solid blocks against Affinity.
In addition to those cards, against Infect, you want:
- T1 discard can break them if they kept a one-creature hand, as they often do.
- Lots of targeted removal (cast it on your own turn to minimize their ability to push through damage under a protection spell).
- Always have, and use, chump blockers.
- You generally can be profligate with your own life total in this match, e.g., it's OK to fetch-->shock-->Thoughtseize to get a key card out of their hand. Anguished Unmaking is all good in this match.
Against Affinity, you want
- Stony Silence for sure. It is probably the single best hate card in the entire format and you need to run two, if not three, in the side. Kataki is not a substitute and you should not run it.
- Sweepers (not Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb: Though they are very good at CMC=2, your Stony could easily shut them off. For this reason you may want to side out your Relics, as well.)
- Lots of targeted removal for Overseer, Ravager, Master, and Plating (this includes Unmaking, obviously).
- Targeted discard is not good against them since they dump their hand so quickly.
In both these matches we are the control deck and need to play like it. Trying to out-aggro them will get you killed.
The only time Westvale Abbey ever helped me was against burn. I could have swung out with my dudes but then left open for counter attacks and they are almost always ahead of you on damage. The lifelink is what saved me. Otherwise I am sure it is a win more card but the option is always nice to have. It is also a bonus against a board heavy presence where neither of you can get through. It also helps to sack stuff that can come back from the grave. Might be too cute but worth looking into. Creatures with persist or undying perhaps might give us an edge against creature heavy decks.
The only time Westvale Abbey ever helped me was against burn. I could have swung out with my dudes but then left open for counter attacks and they are almost always ahead of you on damage. The lifelink is what saved me. Otherwise I am sure it is a win more card but the option is always nice to have. It is also a bonus against a board heavy presence where neither of you can get through. It also helps to sack stuff that can come back from the grave. Might be too cute but worth looking into. Creatures with persist or undying perhaps might give us an edge against creature heavy decks.
Westvale Abbey provides it's maximum value against grindy/control matchups where you use it as primarily a late game bitterblossom. It's flip side does have some other utilities as you say in certain situations but it's primary job is to give you a mana dump in games where you are getting flooded late.
I'm surprised to hear you're having trouble against Infect and Affinity. For me these are consistently winnable in a best-of-three, Infect in particular.
In both matches, Ghost Quarter and Lingering Souls are your best friends and should be your main looked-for cards in your opener/early turns. Both Souls and GQ are great against Inkmoth, and Souls is for chumps against Infect and solid blocks against Affinity.
In addition to those cards, against Infect, you want:
- T1 discard can break them if they kept a one-creature hand, as they often do.
- Lots of targeted removal (cast it on your own turn to minimize their ability to push through damage under a protection spell).
- Always have, and use, chump blockers.
- You generally can be profligate with your own life total in this match, e.g., it's OK to fetch-->shock-->Thoughtseize to get a key card out of their hand. Anguished Unmaking is all good in this match.
Against Affinity, you want
- Stony Silence for sure. It is probably the single best hate card in the entire format and you need to run two, if not three, in the side. Kataki is not a substitute and you should not run it.
- Sweepers (not Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb: Though they are very good at CMC=2, your Stony could easily shut them off. For this reason you may want to side out your Relics, as well.)
- Lots of targeted removal for Overseer, Ravager, Master, and Plating (this includes Unmaking, obviously).
- Targeted discard is not good against them since they dump their hand so quickly.
In both these matches we are the control deck and need to play like it. Trying to out-aggro them will get you killed.
Before I sold out on GP weekend back in March, I was totally onboard there. My problem of late has just been really really really terrible draws against them. Even when I answer the initial threats, I can't beat the god-tier topdecks they seem to pull against me. These are the matchups where I'd have Unmaking in hand and then die to an Inkmoth Nexus as well and see 0 GQ's somehow through the match (or if I do find one, they have find a duplicate). On paper I agree it's a very good matchup but their nut draws are still extremely hard to beat. Lingering Souls has also seemed to be extremely scarce in my draws so far. It's more just variance than anything else. I know how to play the matchup and still usually put up a fight but some things you can't control. Bear in mind we only have 6 targeted removal spells and when 2 of those are Unmaking, they can't hit manlands and cost the full 3. This is why I am considering splitting it's utility with Dismember or just bringing them in from the board for the matchups I want them in. Also the 3 life matters a lot in the quick aggro matchups where you could be paying 0 life for dismember. Dismember can also still be cast under Blood Moon without basics in play.
Something I have been considering due to my experience with it in a different deck. Coalition Relic out of the side for certain matchups (like those that run Blood Moon and even potentially aggro matchups). It will give use WW, WB or BB even under Blood Moon so we don't have to worry about it. It can also let us drop our Eldrazi onto board without tapping completely down (bear in mind if you play it on turn 3 you can then use it Path/Dismember if you need to or use it to ramp out to 5 mana on T4 even if you don't make your next land drop. It also makes manlands a bit easier to activate since you can use your "free" mana to do so if you choose. I'm not totally sold on it but it really does do a lot of work in my other deck.
I'm surprised to hear you're having trouble against Infect and Affinity. For me these are consistently winnable in a best-of-three, Infect in particular.
In both matches, Ghost Quarter and Lingering Souls are your best friends and should be your main looked-for cards in your opener/early turns. Both Souls and GQ are great against Inkmoth, and Souls is for chumps against Infect and solid blocks against Affinity.
In addition to those cards, against Infect, you want:
- T1 discard can break them if they kept a one-creature hand, as they often do.
- Lots of targeted removal (cast it on your own turn to minimize their ability to push through damage under a protection spell).
- Always have, and use, chump blockers.
- You generally can be profligate with your own life total in this match, e.g., it's OK to fetch-->shock-->Thoughtseize to get a key card out of their hand. Anguished Unmaking is all good in this match.
Against Affinity, you want
- Stony Silence for sure. It is probably the single best hate card in the entire format and you need to run two, if not three, in the side. Kataki is not a substitute and you should not run it.
- Sweepers (not Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb: Though they are very good at CMC=2, your Stony could easily shut them off. For this reason you may want to side out your Relics, as well.)
- Lots of targeted removal for Overseer, Ravager, Master, and Plating (this includes Unmaking, obviously).
- Targeted discard is not good against them since they dump their hand so quickly.
In both these matches we are the control deck and need to play like it. Trying to out-aggro them will get you killed.
The funny part is when I face decks like tron, most midrange and combo, I do quite well. Not sure if it is more playstyle or what, but I have trouble against the fast decks just due to them having a more fluid gameplan against my disruption.
I'm surprised to hear you're having trouble against Infect and Affinity. For me these are consistently winnable in a best-of-three, Infect in particular.
In both matches, Ghost Quarter and Lingering Souls are your best friends and should be your main looked-for cards in your opener/early turns. Both Souls and GQ are great against Inkmoth, and Souls is for chumps against Infect and solid blocks against Affinity.
In addition to those cards, against Infect, you want:
- T1 discard can break them if they kept a one-creature hand, as they often do.
- Lots of targeted removal (cast it on your own turn to minimize their ability to push through damage under a protection spell).
- Always have, and use, chump blockers.
- You generally can be profligate with your own life total in this match, e.g., it's OK to fetch-->shock-->Thoughtseize to get a key card out of their hand. Anguished Unmaking is all good in this match.
Against Affinity, you want
- Stony Silence for sure. It is probably the single best hate card in the entire format and you need to run two, if not three, in the side. Kataki is not a substitute and you should not run it.
- Sweepers (not Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb: Though they are very good at CMC=2, your Stony could easily shut them off. For this reason you may want to side out your Relics, as well.)
- Lots of targeted removal for Overseer, Ravager, Master, and Plating (this includes Unmaking, obviously).
- Targeted discard is not good against them since they dump their hand so quickly.
In both these matches we are the control deck and need to play like it. Trying to out-aggro them will get you killed.
The funny part is when I face decks like tron, most midrange and combo, I do quite well. Not sure if it is more playstyle or what, but I have trouble against the fast decks just due to them having a more fluid gameplan against my disruption.
We are susceptible to fast decks. Affinity and Infect both get pretty hosed by Lingering Souls since it lets you chump for days until you start resolving meatier threats. Affinities "out" against midrange decks with spot removal is Etched Champion which is useless against us as well due to devoid. We are a large midrange deck that should beat up on other midrange strategies and because of our structure, I think we have a fairly good control matchup as well (especially if you are running Expedition Map toolbox and can get Cavern consistently into play). Things like Tron are still problematic because we can't provide a fast enough clock to usually hose them. The exception are the rare T2 TKS T3 Smasher hands. Those can end the game swiftly and possibly disrupt them long enough that they can't start attacking your land base.
Before I sold out on GP weekend back in March, I was totally onboard there. My problem of late has just been really really really terrible draws against them... Dismember can also still be cast under Blood Moon without basics in play.
Something I have been considering due to my experience with it in a different deck. Coalition Relic out of the side for certain matchups (like those that run Blood Moon and even potentially aggro matchups).
That does sound like it's probably variance. I should have been more clear, though, as I was actually responding to stormie-sarge's comments about Ratchet Bomb.
You have a good point about Dismember and Blood Moon, and I agree that Unmaking is a mixed bag. I recently dropped from two in the side to one. Coalition Relic is a thing but for now I am succeeding OK with my fetch/GQ/Path package for Moon-playing decks.
My goal is to come back big in G2/3 against any creature-swarm aggro deck, including exile effects for Voice of Resurgence, Kitchen Finks, and all the Kolaghan's Command/Eternal Witness shenanigans. Pulling key deck pieces out of the yard/hand/library is a major strategy for me as well, with a playset of Surgical Extraction (I maindeck one).
Burn gets three life-gain cards which is a little lighter than I would like. Combo gets disruption plus Extraction. Tron gets Stony Silence plus Ghost Quarter/Extraction. Blood Moon gets Ratchet Bomb plus Anguished Unmaking, which can indeed be hard to cast. (I prioritize getting basics above all other considerations when I face Moon decks, and the three fetches help a huge amount with this.) Control I mostly just play around and seem to do OK, unless they get off a Sphinx's Revelation for like 7 or something.
I currently feel like my main and side have a workable plan for anything I might see, but I haven't tested this version vs. Burn and Tron so these are still theoretical.
Before I sold out on GP weekend back in March, I was totally onboard there. My problem of late has just been really really really terrible draws against them... Dismember can also still be cast under Blood Moon without basics in play.
Something I have been considering due to my experience with it in a different deck. Coalition Relic out of the side for certain matchups (like those that run Blood Moon and even potentially aggro matchups).
That does sound like it's probably variance. I should have been more clear, though, as I was actually responding to stormie-sarge's comments about Ratchet Bomb.
You have a good point about Dismember and Blood Moon, and I agree that Unmaking is a mixed bag. I recently dropped from two in the side to one. Coalition Relic is a thing but for now I am succeeding OK with my fetch/GQ/Path package for Moon-playing decks.
My goal is to come back big in G2/3 against any creature-swarm aggro deck, including exile effects for Voice of Resurgence, Kitchen Finks, and all the Kolaghan's Command/Eternal Witness shenanigans. Pulling key deck pieces out of the yard/hand/library is a major strategy for me as well, with a playset of Surgical Extraction (I maindeck one).
Burn gets three life-gain cards which is a little lighter than I would like. Combo gets disruption plus Extraction. Tron gets Stony Silence plus Ghost Quarter/Extraction. Blood Moon gets Ratchet Bomb plus Anguished Unmaking, which can indeed be hard to cast. (I prioritize getting basics above all other considerations when I face Moon decks, and the three fetches help a huge amount with this.) Control I mostly just play around and seem to do OK, unless they get off a Sphinx's Revelation for like 7 or something.
I currently feel like my main and side have a workable plan for anything I might see, but I haven't tested this version vs. Burn and Tron so these are still theoretical.
Ah ok, I totally agree with all your points. How much MB discard do you run. Currently I'm at a 2:2 split on Inquisition and Thoughtseize with 2 more Thoughtseize out of the side for combo/control matchups. I do like out control matchup currently because most folks I see are running AV as their big "CA" card and not things like Sphinx Rev. Because of this, they tend to run out of answers and then are forced to durdle (not to mention side out their discard. I haven't seen much burn lately but I have 3 Leylines and 2 Timely Reinforcements to assist in that process. We have a local SCG States tournament thing coming up on Sunday and I play on taking this deck like I did to regionals. Hopefully my meta stays the same and I can get a bit luckier on my draws against Infect/Affinity. Overall it's been really really nice. I did live the dream last week and processed 2x AV on turn 4 with a Blight Herder against Grixis Thing Control.
I did live the dream last week and processed 2x AV on turn 4 with a Blight Herder against Grixis Thing Control.
If I'm being really honest, this is one of the main reasons I'm on this deck. There are few things more satisfying than processing an AV.
The one I'm still waiting on is the process AV and kill Jace, VP. That's the day I know I win at magic. I'm actually playing this deck because I loved the way it felt before the Aggrodrazi ruined it's feel. I also think it's actually really well placed if we can work out the tweaks. It beats up other midrange and control decks while having a good matchup against Affinity and Infect. My meta has been chocked full of all of those so I have felt great lately. If Bring to Light Scapeshift really springs up in popularity... maybe I'll feel a lot worse. Still this deck is really strong and grindy and I love it.
I love the tidehollow scullers, sculler take their removal, and play strangler processing the removal to kill their creature is such a good feeling against aggro. No blight herder though? I feel it's one of our most powerful cards
Private Mod Note
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My Decks:
UG Merfolk RG 8-Whack BWG Abzan midrange GRB Living End UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin" RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!" BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
Round 1 Merfolk (1-2)[0-1]:
Game 1 I was able to spot remove and keep his board in check. Eventually used vault of the archangel to push myself way ahead in life to seal up the victory. Game 2 I had to mull to 4 (mulls were: no lands, 5 lands, 1 land all 5 drops, 2 lander) I drew no more lands and he spreading seas my only colored source to take out the Flaying Tendril out. Game 3 was really close but I couldn't find a GQ for the land he Spreading Seas and he ended up landing back to back Kira's. The first one forced me to eat double dismember to kill and then I only saw a single path for the second.
Round 2 Gruul Werewolves (2-1)[1-1]:
Oddly enough I am part of the brewing for this deck over in the Vial//CoCo Werewolves section so I knew the list and how to hit it. I nearly died game 1 as he found all 4 bolts and he got me pretty low game 3 by finding 3. Game 2 was lost due to me missing a land drop on turn 4 and then him resolving a Blood Moon. I had to GQ my own land and as I was searching for lands to top deck. He spammed out 3 lords. All in all though the list just isn't fast enough and suspect to disruption (admittedly he didn't own vials which I think are better than CoCo in the list. This may have been his undoing).
Round 3 Ad Nauseum (2-1 [2-1]:
Game 1 Turn 1 I Inquisitioned him and saw Ad Nauseum and Phyrexian Unlife x2. He had already suspended a Lotus Bloom as well. I couldn't find a processor to kill it in time (had a blight herder but couldn't get a second card into exile). Game 2 I kept a ridiculous hand you can only keep against Ad Nauseum. 6 lands (including Abbey and a Shambling Vent) and Leyline of Sanctity. I begin with Leyline in play, he suspends 2 lotus blooms. I top deck Stoney silence and then proceed to draw straight gas from there. He was able to stall with a Phyrexian Unlife but I made a nifty play of making a 2/2 Vampire with Sorin the turn I knocked him into -life and made an Abbey token at EOT. He hardcasted a spirit guide to block one of the 2 TKS's I had on board but with everything else, an uptick of Sorin was exactly 10 infect for lethal. Game 3 was a bit awkward as he started with Leyline killing my IoK and making my 2x TKS's just beaters. I had a turn 3 Reality smasher which he countered with Pact of Negation (but was forced to use Angel's Grace not to lose). I then started beating down with TKS's and he couldn't find the combo (he had like 2 draws to find it before I had lethal attacking him).
Round 4 Affinity (2-0)[3-1]:
Game 1 I got the nonsense hand and became the beat down. On the play Turn 2 TKS and Turn 3 Reality Smasher. He didn't have an explosive hand and couldn't recover. Game 2 He got a turn 2 Thoughtseize off taking my Flaying Tendrils (which would have lead to a blowout). I top deck Stoney Silence and jam it. He sacs his useless artifacts to ravager in response and then swings in to hit me down to 4. I then Path his Ravager and take one more shot down to 2. I then started jamming Lingering Souls and was able to win the top deck war as he managed to push 1 more damage through but couldn't find Galvanic Blast. He did find back to back Vault Skirges. Full cost Dismember from 1 life (thank god it wasn't Anguished Unmaking), let me kill the first but he was now essentially representing lethal with the second (I had Wasteland Strangler and TKS and he was at 5 and he could chump one of them with Ornithopter and survive). I play the Reality Smasher I had slow rolled the entire game in order to hold up full Dismember mana.
Summary: Man Dismember was just SO good tonight. It's versatility in cost requirements and being able to hit manlands felt really necessary on the night. Also being able to pay 0 life when needed mattered a lot at the end. I think Anguished is a good sideboard card (I replaced Disenchant with it) but I am less sold on it in the MB. Perhaps it's just my meta but there is a ton of man lands. Almost one type in every deck. There is lots of control running around my meta but somehow I seem to keep dodging them which is sad but oh well.
I'm still considering an Archangel Avacyn as a 1x in the list somewhere as Wrath protection and a wincon that others don't expect (not to mention we can flip her with Scion tokens and all our actual dudes (TKS, Smasher etc) all survive.
Yeah I dropped it once against the Werewolves and equipped it to Reality Smasher under a Blood Moon. It's slot is where I'd stick Archangel Avacyn.. So far I haven't faced burn but feel like I'd like that extra 4/4 lifelink option that doesn't require colored mana to cast.
Went 3-2 in a field of 44 tonight. And holy ***** did I run the Tron/control gauntlet. With highly bi-modal results.
2-0 vs. Esper Thopter Sword: It was not close. In G1 he didn't even touch me and I landed two Relics and two Smashers. In G2 I went T1 Caves --> Thoughtseize, take Sword --> Extract Sword, and again Disruption and Relic plus resolved Smashers were overpowering. Something I enjoy about this deck is that Spell Snare is useless, just useless. It's full of little synergies like that.
1-0-1 vs. Mono-U Tron: G1 was not close. I was able control his lands with GQ and Relic his recurring artifacts. As always hand disruption played a key role. Smasher smashed for a fast win. Similar results at the end of turns with me at 23 life and him at 5.
0-2 vs. UW Gifts Tron: The semi-retired ex-head judge of the LGS easily beat me with a baffling one-of deck that neutralized Extraction… though a deck with four TKSs in it, too, I should add. My graveyard hate felt outhated.
2-0 vs. UW Gifts Tron (yes again!): Lingering Souls was great. Herder also was good in G2. He sorta ran out of gas and was weak to Vent attacks in the early mid-game, having lots of sorcery-speed removal. In G2 he stalled me out and landed Iona naming white... I topdecked my one-of Go for the Throat *tugs at collar*. Smasher again quickly wraps things up.
0-2 vs RG Tron (are you kidding me?!): That deck is so consistent that if I don't actually get the right hate at the right time I will lose. I was not able to assemble the GQ/SE combo. Very hard for me, makes me want to change my sideboard after a night like tonight. Did not see any hate in G2 and probably should have mulled my decent but not great hand. A fun synergy here is blocking Wurmcoil with a Scion and saccing before damage.
A couple of times tonight I ran into a dead Marsh Flats (a 3-of) because all my fetch targets (5 of them) were already in play. It's the first time I've run into this situation. I could have used the mana for Vent plus a spell if I'd had it, too. In most cases I was playing a slower game anyway so as not to squander resources to counterspells. Manlands are invaluable for this. I didn't really feel mana-shy for Smasher, though I did feel exile-shy for Herder a couple of times, which sucked against so much control. An irritating nonbo exists between Surgical Extraction and Path/TKS/Unmaking, but SE still continues to prove its worth against a wide array of the field. I tried a one-of Batterskull but it wasn't really relevant as more than a theoretical threat, e.g., as a TKS target itself. Kinda want to yank a Damnation for a Pithing Needle after tonight. Though I did not record land drops well at all tonight, I do not feel I am running too few lands.
By the way, Smasher SMASH!!! That card is insane and can't highly enough recommend trying three or even four.
Round 1 UW Control (1-2)[0-1]: I have mentioned the disparity in decklists of the control decks greatly changes our chances of a win. Well the disturbing trend continues at my LGS and there were more folks running the Walker heavy UW list with Elspeth and Gideon as their top end. Game 1 my opponent curved perfectly Gideon into Elspeth and I couldn't find anything but spot removal. Game 2 I won the back off 3 copies of Lingering Souls. He couldn't find a board sweeper and was forced to spend all of his spot removal on my tokens. Game 3 I managed to sneak in a TKS (he had Mana Leak and forgot that he could counter TKS because I was forced to use Cavern for colorless mana instead of uncounterable mana (I always call out the color I tap it for so it wasn't like I hid it from him). I yanked his Elsepeth and seemed to be in a great position. I knocked him down to 4 and he found another Elspeth. I couldn't find Lingering Souls, Anguished Unmaking or Reality Smasher to try and come back into the game.
Round 2 Jeskai Control (2-0)[1-1]: This round was over in about 15 min (there as 35 min left in the round after the match slip had been signed). Curving discard into Cavern of Souls into TKS into Herder/Smasher was just too much for him both games. His game 2 opening hand was so awful I don't know why he kept (Spell Snare, Logic Knot x2, AV, Snapcaster, Land x2).. I when I dropped TKS turn 3 with a Cavern I knew I essentially had the game on lock. I haven't regretted moving up to 2x Cavern of Souls yet. They are more frequently being drawn and in matchups without counter spells they still act as a generic colorless land.
Round 3 Little Kid Abzan (2-1)[2-1]: I've played this opponent a lot on many different decks. He is quite good at the interactive matchups and boy was this one of those. Game 1 he managed to kill me as I couldn't draw past his 3x Lingering Souls, Gavony and Liege. Game 2 was nearly a blowout as he Path'd my Smasher and tricked in Smiter. Luckily I was stocked with removal spells and Lingering Souls to stall. I eventually stuck a Batterskull, equipped it to a Blight Herder and rode it to victory (going from like 3 life to over 30 before he scooped). Game 3 was very similar. He came out of the gates swinging. He almost had me at one point because of Leige making everything huge but I topdecked a relic, play and crack, draw the path. I then Path his leige and cast Flaying Tendrils which all but cleared his board (left him with just a smiter and exiled a Voice). I then stabilized and eventually got Reality Smasher carrying a Batterskull to win.
Round 4 Jeskai Thopter Sword (1-0-1)[3-1]: So game 1 I won on the back of destroying his hand, dropping uncounterable bombs and keeping his GY in exile... oh and Batterskull which allowed me to kill a Gideon. I did see the Sword but it was pretty late and I totally forgot he was running it so I forgot to board in Stoney Silences. He miracled into Crucible into Sword into Foundry and was able to go off making dudes but fortunately as he got it we entered turns. I had a Sorin, SV in play and just crashed in with everything to trade my board for a ton of life. He couldn't kill me before the end of the game and thus I won the match.
Hero of the Night: Batterskull. Holy hell did this thing do a whole lot of work tonight. It's not always needed but there are some matchups where it can just take over. It's a large enough body and god forbid you equip it to any of your creatures it just starts to get crazy. I'll say Westvale Abbey gets an honorable mention in here because there were a few games tonight where I got flooded and was able to abuse the Token gen on it to keep board state and start applying pressure.
I am still stuck if I want to play this or my Mardu Walker Control deck at states tomorrow but all in all, I do love this deck. It has a ton of versatility and grind.
Ratchet Bomb main is not such a bad idea. It wins games against decks that we are weaker against, like infect and affinity. It can also be a great aid against any smaller aggro deck as well.
Anguished Unmaking really fills out several holes in the deck. With leyline of sanctity going in the board, it might head there too in some amount from my main.
Sorin, Solemn Visitor I agree that this card is a core card of the deck. I am almost never sad to see him even late in the game, and have had several games that he just completely blew the game out of the water.
Matter Reshaper he is becoming a card that I am liking more and more. He fills a good stall slot against midrange, and also brings in pressure against aggro and control. It is nice really.
Surgical Extraction I am growing more and more to liking this as a maindeck option. More testing is needed though. Might be another option to look at with oblivion sower options.
Grim Discovery Decks that ghost quarter is strong against, and likes to kill out creatures is what I side it in agianst. Otherwise it is like a inferior black like of the loam card lol. It does do the job against decks that like to run very few basics though. (I like to ghost quarter if I can set-up a caves E-temple or something similar)
In both matches, Ghost Quarter and Lingering Souls are your best friends and should be your main looked-for cards in your opener/early turns. Both Souls and GQ are great against Inkmoth, and Souls is for chumps against Infect and solid blocks against Affinity.
In addition to those cards, against Infect, you want:
- T1 discard can break them if they kept a one-creature hand, as they often do.
- Lots of targeted removal (cast it on your own turn to minimize their ability to push through damage under a protection spell).
- Always have, and use, chump blockers.
- You generally can be profligate with your own life total in this match, e.g., it's OK to fetch-->shock-->Thoughtseize to get a key card out of their hand. Anguished Unmaking is all good in this match.
Against Affinity, you want
- Stony Silence for sure. It is probably the single best hate card in the entire format and you need to run two, if not three, in the side. Kataki is not a substitute and you should not run it.
- Sweepers (not Engineered Explosives or Ratchet Bomb: Though they are very good at CMC=2, your Stony could easily shut them off. For this reason you may want to side out your Relics, as well.)
- Lots of targeted removal for Overseer, Ravager, Master, and Plating (this includes Unmaking, obviously).
- Targeted discard is not good against them since they dump their hand so quickly.
In both these matches we are the control deck and need to play like it. Trying to out-aggro them will get you killed.
Westvale Abbey provides it's maximum value against grindy/control matchups where you use it as primarily a late game bitterblossom. It's flip side does have some other utilities as you say in certain situations but it's primary job is to give you a mana dump in games where you are getting flooded late.
Before I sold out on GP weekend back in March, I was totally onboard there. My problem of late has just been really really really terrible draws against them. Even when I answer the initial threats, I can't beat the god-tier topdecks they seem to pull against me. These are the matchups where I'd have Unmaking in hand and then die to an Inkmoth Nexus as well and see 0 GQ's somehow through the match (or if I do find one, they have find a duplicate). On paper I agree it's a very good matchup but their nut draws are still extremely hard to beat. Lingering Souls has also seemed to be extremely scarce in my draws so far. It's more just variance than anything else. I know how to play the matchup and still usually put up a fight but some things you can't control. Bear in mind we only have 6 targeted removal spells and when 2 of those are Unmaking, they can't hit manlands and cost the full 3. This is why I am considering splitting it's utility with Dismember or just bringing them in from the board for the matchups I want them in. Also the 3 life matters a lot in the quick aggro matchups where you could be paying 0 life for dismember. Dismember can also still be cast under Blood Moon without basics in play.
Something I have been considering due to my experience with it in a different deck. Coalition Relic out of the side for certain matchups (like those that run Blood Moon and even potentially aggro matchups). It will give use WW, WB or BB even under Blood Moon so we don't have to worry about it. It can also let us drop our Eldrazi onto board without tapping completely down (bear in mind if you play it on turn 3 you can then use it Path/Dismember if you need to or use it to ramp out to 5 mana on T4 even if you don't make your next land drop. It also makes manlands a bit easier to activate since you can use your "free" mana to do so if you choose. I'm not totally sold on it but it really does do a lot of work in my other deck.
The funny part is when I face decks like tron, most midrange and combo, I do quite well. Not sure if it is more playstyle or what, but I have trouble against the fast decks just due to them having a more fluid gameplan against my disruption.
We are susceptible to fast decks. Affinity and Infect both get pretty hosed by Lingering Souls since it lets you chump for days until you start resolving meatier threats. Affinities "out" against midrange decks with spot removal is Etched Champion which is useless against us as well due to devoid. We are a large midrange deck that should beat up on other midrange strategies and because of our structure, I think we have a fairly good control matchup as well (especially if you are running Expedition Map toolbox and can get Cavern consistently into play). Things like Tron are still problematic because we can't provide a fast enough clock to usually hose them. The exception are the rare T2 TKS T3 Smasher hands. Those can end the game swiftly and possibly disrupt them long enough that they can't start attacking your land base.
You have a good point about Dismember and Blood Moon, and I agree that Unmaking is a mixed bag. I recently dropped from two in the side to one. Coalition Relic is a thing but for now I am succeeding OK with my fetch/GQ/Path package for Moon-playing decks.
My sideboard looks like this:
2 Damnation
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest for the Weary
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Timely Reinforcements
Burn gets three life-gain cards which is a little lighter than I would like. Combo gets disruption plus Extraction. Tron gets Stony Silence plus Ghost Quarter/Extraction. Blood Moon gets Ratchet Bomb plus Anguished Unmaking, which can indeed be hard to cast. (I prioritize getting basics above all other considerations when I face Moon decks, and the three fetches help a huge amount with this.) Control I mostly just play around and seem to do OK, unless they get off a Sphinx's Revelation for like 7 or something.
I currently feel like my main and side have a workable plan for anything I might see, but I haven't tested this version vs. Burn and Tron so these are still theoretical.
Ah ok, I totally agree with all your points. How much MB discard do you run. Currently I'm at a 2:2 split on Inquisition and Thoughtseize with 2 more Thoughtseize out of the side for combo/control matchups. I do like out control matchup currently because most folks I see are running AV as their big "CA" card and not things like Sphinx Rev. Because of this, they tend to run out of answers and then are forced to durdle (not to mention side out their discard. I haven't seen much burn lately but I have 3 Leylines and 2 Timely Reinforcements to assist in that process. We have a local SCG States tournament thing coming up on Sunday and I play on taking this deck like I did to regionals. Hopefully my meta stays the same and I can get a bit luckier on my draws against Infect/Affinity. Overall it's been really really nice. I did live the dream last week and processed 2x AV on turn 4 with a Blight Herder against Grixis Thing Control.
If I'm being really honest, this is one of the main reasons I'm on this deck. There are few things more satisfying than processing an AV.
The one I'm still waiting on is the process AV and kill Jace, VP. That's the day I know I win at magic. I'm actually playing this deck because I loved the way it felt before the Aggrodrazi ruined it's feel. I also think it's actually really well placed if we can work out the tweaks. It beats up other midrange and control decks while having a good matchup against Affinity and Infect. My meta has been chocked full of all of those so I have felt great lately. If Bring to Light Scapeshift really springs up in popularity... maybe I'll feel a lot worse. Still this deck is really strong and grindy and I love it.
Deck is almost together and will start testing. Plan on taking this to GPLA.
RG 8-Whack
BWG Abzan midrange
GRB Living End
UWB Spirit Control
GU Kruphix's "Hug Assassin"
RW Kalemne's "Play Fatties and Hope for the Best!"
BUGW Atraxa's "All counters, all the time"
3x Wasteland Strangler
4x Thought-knot Seer
3x Blight Herder
2x Reality Smasher
Sorceries(8):
2x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
Instants(6):
4x Path to Exile
2x Dismember
Artifacts(6):
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Expedition Map
1x Batterskull
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands(24):
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Cave of Koilos
3x Godless Shrine
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Shambling Vent
1x Westvale Abbey
1x Seagate Wreckage
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Flaying Tendrils
1x Damnation
1x Anguished Unmaking
Round 1 Merfolk (1-2)[0-1]:
Game 1 I was able to spot remove and keep his board in check. Eventually used vault of the archangel to push myself way ahead in life to seal up the victory. Game 2 I had to mull to 4 (mulls were: no lands, 5 lands, 1 land all 5 drops, 2 lander) I drew no more lands and he spreading seas my only colored source to take out the Flaying Tendril out. Game 3 was really close but I couldn't find a GQ for the land he Spreading Seas and he ended up landing back to back Kira's. The first one forced me to eat double dismember to kill and then I only saw a single path for the second.
Round 2 Gruul Werewolves (2-1)[1-1]:
Oddly enough I am part of the brewing for this deck over in the Vial//CoCo Werewolves section so I knew the list and how to hit it. I nearly died game 1 as he found all 4 bolts and he got me pretty low game 3 by finding 3. Game 2 was lost due to me missing a land drop on turn 4 and then him resolving a Blood Moon. I had to GQ my own land and as I was searching for lands to top deck. He spammed out 3 lords. All in all though the list just isn't fast enough and suspect to disruption (admittedly he didn't own vials which I think are better than CoCo in the list. This may have been his undoing).
Round 3 Ad Nauseum (2-1 [2-1]:
Game 1 Turn 1 I Inquisitioned him and saw Ad Nauseum and Phyrexian Unlife x2. He had already suspended a Lotus Bloom as well. I couldn't find a processor to kill it in time (had a blight herder but couldn't get a second card into exile). Game 2 I kept a ridiculous hand you can only keep against Ad Nauseum. 6 lands (including Abbey and a Shambling Vent) and Leyline of Sanctity. I begin with Leyline in play, he suspends 2 lotus blooms. I top deck Stoney silence and then proceed to draw straight gas from there. He was able to stall with a Phyrexian Unlife but I made a nifty play of making a 2/2 Vampire with Sorin the turn I knocked him into -life and made an Abbey token at EOT. He hardcasted a spirit guide to block one of the 2 TKS's I had on board but with everything else, an uptick of Sorin was exactly 10 infect for lethal. Game 3 was a bit awkward as he started with Leyline killing my IoK and making my 2x TKS's just beaters. I had a turn 3 Reality smasher which he countered with Pact of Negation (but was forced to use Angel's Grace not to lose). I then started beating down with TKS's and he couldn't find the combo (he had like 2 draws to find it before I had lethal attacking him).
Round 4 Affinity (2-0)[3-1]:
Game 1 I got the nonsense hand and became the beat down. On the play Turn 2 TKS and Turn 3 Reality Smasher. He didn't have an explosive hand and couldn't recover. Game 2 He got a turn 2 Thoughtseize off taking my Flaying Tendrils (which would have lead to a blowout). I top deck Stoney Silence and jam it. He sacs his useless artifacts to ravager in response and then swings in to hit me down to 4. I then Path his Ravager and take one more shot down to 2. I then started jamming Lingering Souls and was able to win the top deck war as he managed to push 1 more damage through but couldn't find Galvanic Blast. He did find back to back Vault Skirges. Full cost Dismember from 1 life (thank god it wasn't Anguished Unmaking), let me kill the first but he was now essentially representing lethal with the second (I had Wasteland Strangler and TKS and he was at 5 and he could chump one of them with Ornithopter and survive). I play the Reality Smasher I had slow rolled the entire game in order to hold up full Dismember mana.
Summary: Man Dismember was just SO good tonight. It's versatility in cost requirements and being able to hit manlands felt really necessary on the night. Also being able to pay 0 life when needed mattered a lot at the end. I think Anguished is a good sideboard card (I replaced Disenchant with it) but I am less sold on it in the MB. Perhaps it's just my meta but there is a ton of man lands. Almost one type in every deck. There is lots of control running around my meta but somehow I seem to keep dodging them which is sad but oh well.
I'm still considering an Archangel Avacyn as a 1x in the list somewhere as Wrath protection and a wincon that others don't expect (not to mention we can flip her with Scion tokens and all our actual dudes (TKS, Smasher etc) all survive.
Yeah I dropped it once against the Werewolves and equipped it to Reality Smasher under a Blood Moon. It's slot is where I'd stick Archangel Avacyn.. So far I haven't faced burn but feel like I'd like that extra 4/4 lifelink option that doesn't require colored mana to cast.
2-0 vs. Esper Thopter Sword: It was not close. In G1 he didn't even touch me and I landed two Relics and two Smashers. In G2 I went T1 Caves --> Thoughtseize, take Sword --> Extract Sword, and again Disruption and Relic plus resolved Smashers were overpowering. Something I enjoy about this deck is that Spell Snare is useless, just useless. It's full of little synergies like that.
1-0-1 vs. Mono-U Tron: G1 was not close. I was able control his lands with GQ and Relic his recurring artifacts. As always hand disruption played a key role. Smasher smashed for a fast win. Similar results at the end of turns with me at 23 life and him at 5.
0-2 vs. UW Gifts Tron: The semi-retired ex-head judge of the LGS easily beat me with a baffling one-of deck that neutralized Extraction… though a deck with four TKSs in it, too, I should add. My graveyard hate felt outhated.
2-0 vs. UW Gifts Tron (yes again!): Lingering Souls was great. Herder also was good in G2. He sorta ran out of gas and was weak to Vent attacks in the early mid-game, having lots of sorcery-speed removal. In G2 he stalled me out and landed Iona naming white... I topdecked my one-of Go for the Throat *tugs at collar*. Smasher again quickly wraps things up.
0-2 vs RG Tron (are you kidding me?!): That deck is so consistent that if I don't actually get the right hate at the right time I will lose. I was not able to assemble the GQ/SE combo. Very hard for me, makes me want to change my sideboard after a night like tonight. Did not see any hate in G2 and probably should have mulled my decent but not great hand. A fun synergy here is blocking Wurmcoil with a Scion and saccing before damage.
A couple of times tonight I ran into a dead Marsh Flats (a 3-of) because all my fetch targets (5 of them) were already in play. It's the first time I've run into this situation. I could have used the mana for Vent plus a spell if I'd had it, too. In most cases I was playing a slower game anyway so as not to squander resources to counterspells. Manlands are invaluable for this. I didn't really feel mana-shy for Smasher, though I did feel exile-shy for Herder a couple of times, which sucked against so much control. An irritating nonbo exists between Surgical Extraction and Path/TKS/Unmaking, but SE still continues to prove its worth against a wide array of the field. I tried a one-of Batterskull but it wasn't really relevant as more than a theoretical threat, e.g., as a TKS target itself. Kinda want to yank a Damnation for a Pithing Needle after tonight. Though I did not record land drops well at all tonight, I do not feel I am running too few lands.
By the way, Smasher SMASH!!! That card is insane and can't highly enough recommend trying three or even four.
3x Wasteland Strangler
4x Thought-knot Seer
3x Blight Herder
2x Reality Smasher
Sorceries(8):
2x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
Instants(6):
4x Path to Exile
2x Dismember
Artifacts(6):
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Expedition Map
1x Batterskull
1x Sorin, Solemn Visitor
Lands(24):
4x Eldrazi Temple
4x Cave of Koilos
3x Godless Shrine
3x Ghost Quarter
2x Shambling Vent
1x Westvale Abbey
1x Seagate Wreckage
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Vault of the Archangel
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Stony Silence
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Timely Reinforcements
2x Flaying Tendrils
1x Damnation
1x Anguished Unmaking
Round 1 UW Control (1-2)[0-1]: I have mentioned the disparity in decklists of the control decks greatly changes our chances of a win. Well the disturbing trend continues at my LGS and there were more folks running the Walker heavy UW list with Elspeth and Gideon as their top end. Game 1 my opponent curved perfectly Gideon into Elspeth and I couldn't find anything but spot removal. Game 2 I won the back off 3 copies of Lingering Souls. He couldn't find a board sweeper and was forced to spend all of his spot removal on my tokens. Game 3 I managed to sneak in a TKS (he had Mana Leak and forgot that he could counter TKS because I was forced to use Cavern for colorless mana instead of uncounterable mana (I always call out the color I tap it for so it wasn't like I hid it from him). I yanked his Elsepeth and seemed to be in a great position. I knocked him down to 4 and he found another Elspeth. I couldn't find Lingering Souls, Anguished Unmaking or Reality Smasher to try and come back into the game.
Round 2 Jeskai Control (2-0)[1-1]: This round was over in about 15 min (there as 35 min left in the round after the match slip had been signed). Curving discard into Cavern of Souls into TKS into Herder/Smasher was just too much for him both games. His game 2 opening hand was so awful I don't know why he kept (Spell Snare, Logic Knot x2, AV, Snapcaster, Land x2).. I when I dropped TKS turn 3 with a Cavern I knew I essentially had the game on lock. I haven't regretted moving up to 2x Cavern of Souls yet. They are more frequently being drawn and in matchups without counter spells they still act as a generic colorless land.
Round 3 Little Kid Abzan (2-1)[2-1]: I've played this opponent a lot on many different decks. He is quite good at the interactive matchups and boy was this one of those. Game 1 he managed to kill me as I couldn't draw past his 3x Lingering Souls, Gavony and Liege. Game 2 was nearly a blowout as he Path'd my Smasher and tricked in Smiter. Luckily I was stocked with removal spells and Lingering Souls to stall. I eventually stuck a Batterskull, equipped it to a Blight Herder and rode it to victory (going from like 3 life to over 30 before he scooped). Game 3 was very similar. He came out of the gates swinging. He almost had me at one point because of Leige making everything huge but I topdecked a relic, play and crack, draw the path. I then Path his leige and cast Flaying Tendrils which all but cleared his board (left him with just a smiter and exiled a Voice). I then stabilized and eventually got Reality Smasher carrying a Batterskull to win.
Round 4 Jeskai Thopter Sword (1-0-1)[3-1]: So game 1 I won on the back of destroying his hand, dropping uncounterable bombs and keeping his GY in exile... oh and Batterskull which allowed me to kill a Gideon. I did see the Sword but it was pretty late and I totally forgot he was running it so I forgot to board in Stoney Silences. He miracled into Crucible into Sword into Foundry and was able to go off making dudes but fortunately as he got it we entered turns. I had a Sorin, SV in play and just crashed in with everything to trade my board for a ton of life. He couldn't kill me before the end of the game and thus I won the match.
Hero of the Night: Batterskull. Holy hell did this thing do a whole lot of work tonight. It's not always needed but there are some matchups where it can just take over. It's a large enough body and god forbid you equip it to any of your creatures it just starts to get crazy. I'll say Westvale Abbey gets an honorable mention in here because there were a few games tonight where I got flooded and was able to abuse the Token gen on it to keep board state and start applying pressure.
I am still stuck if I want to play this or my Mardu Walker Control deck at states tomorrow but all in all, I do love this deck. It has a ton of versatility and grind.
Not at all. Check out my list. I run 0 fetches by design. Fetches are purely a preference.
awesome. i think your deck is sweet. what would you run over the cavern of souls? gonna give ur list a try at locals tonight ( i have zero)