I'm expecting a lot of burn, zoo, and affinity at our regional. Just the way the format seems to have adjusted too.
I also feel like my thoughtseizes may hurt but since I lack IOK, ill just have to deal with it. With Md Sorin and the vault, I already feel much better. Dismember has been working though, doom blade works just as well with no life loss. I did have issues with an onboard siege rhino, but reality smasher doesn't care.
With the leylines, I do feel like 3 is the better number as well. Even thought we may have to deal with removal against decks like burn, even if it slows them down 2 turns, thats still 2 turns of setbacks, which may be enough to stabilize. Plus with ad nauseum and scapeshift, they are pretty amazing. Rest for the weary is good, but can't hold off those decks for long. PLus there's always timely reinforcements.
My concern is 2 flaying tendrils going to be enough to sideboard against things like zoo and robots? I know I also have 6 main boad removal spells.
I'll mix this up and go bottom to top. 2 Flaying Tendrils has been fine out of the board because it kills pretty much every creature they have in Robots and then kills enough out of zoo (nacatl and some Goyfs can dodge it, occasionally knight and scooze but for the most part it does what we need.. it also curves nicely into blight herder if you got 2 creatures. That puts out enough bodies and one that can kill their things.) I am not worried about their removal spells really. I do bring in Surgical so I can either hit Path to Exile or one of their main dudes (like Knight, Ghor-clan Rampager or occasionally Bolt.. makes their topdecks worse and lets you worry about their hand less). Bear in mind I also run Ratchet Bombs because at 1 or 2 it can clear their board when I need it to most. (These are ofcourse matchups where Engineered explosives might be better because it's faster but I like committing 2 mana early and then not having to leave mana open again).
I also don't have Inquisitions so I use Thoughtseize. It hurts some matchups it helps others. In the end I'll try and pick up 1 more inquisition and go to a 2/2 split before Regionals. If not I'll keep my 1/3 IoK/TS.
I have had mixed results with Warping Wail but I still like it. Plenty of creatures so far that have 1 or less P/T and the exile matters. It's also versatile enough for me not to worry too much (worst case it's been a 1/1 blocker).
I expect these decks to be running around as well with the addition of Infect (trying to prey on folks gearing up against burn but still good against RG Tron). Honestly if that is the majority of the matches I face on the day, I think I could do alright. Early games will be a bit clench worthy but those are all winnable matchups (with burn being the worst). Also semi thinking "next game" what I have heard from folks that own Jund is they are playing it for much the same reason I am playing this, familiarity but if the meta is very much aggro heavy, they prey on those decks as well. This could mean that we face more Jund type decks than we have seen recently which would greatly help our chances.
Guys, how is everyone on the discard spells here? I haven't played in awhile, but wouldn't 4 kozileks seem better? Or 3? What's the norm these days, tell me!
Most of us are split between IoK and TS around 4-5 copies. I currently am shooting for a 2-2 split with 3 TKS. Thoughtseize helps us against some matchups like scapeshift/tron where IoK just isn't good enough.
I keep 4 copies of TS, along with 3 TKS. While I would like the option of using IOK, I dont mind the 2 life to take whatever I feel is most threatening. Followed up surgical extraction, discard can kill a combo, wipe out win cons, or pesky cards. Definitely want at least a playset in your MB and a couple in the SB. I use 2 duress in the side.
Hey everyone, I am new to this archetype, what do we think of running Marsh Flats in the manabase? I've seen lists that do, and some that don't. What are the advantages of each?
It really is a preference call. When running just pain lands, you take on average 3.5 damage per game. This makes them slightly worse damage wise than Fetches. The reason some of us go without Fetches is because your average T1 play costs you less life and doesn't punish you as much for Thoughtseize. When I had fetches, I almost never fetched a basic (because you need both colors and might as well get them). This would put you at 15 after a T1 Thoughtseize.. ow. With Painlands you are only at 17 and can then play accordingly. I also preferred pain lands because it slightly increased the number of lands that can tap for <C>. Because of this, I have never been stuck with all color sources and not been able to cast TKS and Reality Smasher. The benefit of Fetches is it lets you play Rest for the Weary, You can play it without but it does make the card slightly worse.
Great explanation. I also dislike fetches because my meta plays a lot of paths and GQ.
With the trend of the BW version becoming more midrangey and less of a ramp deck, is Liliana of the Veil a card we want? Putting both players in topdeck mode is good for a deck that has such great topdecks, but I'm not sure how many matchups Lili's actually that good in. With all of the fast aggro decks running around is she worth it?
Lili is a great card but my thinking is that she will be very hard to cast on curve, and what do you take out? Maybe a Strangler I suppose. But the creature count is already borderline at 13-14 in most builds.
I have the Lilianas and want to test them, but I treat BW as a 3 color deck with the colorless mana. I try to keep any double color costs out of the deck to improve consistency. As much as a bomb as she can be, I feel like she doesn't give us a significant advantage since this version runs pretty well and becomes harder to streamline with the double black costs and only can fetch for 2 of the colors.
Hey everyone, I am new to this archetype, what do we think of running Marsh Flats in the manabase? I've seen lists that do, and some that don't. What are the advantages of each?
It really is a preference call. When running just pain lands, you take on average 3.5 damage per game. This makes them slightly worse damage wise than Fetches. The reason some of us go without Fetches is because your average T1 play costs you less life and doesn't punish you as much for Thoughtseize. When I had fetches, I almost never fetched a basic (because you need both colors and might as well get them). This would put you at 15 after a T1 Thoughtseize.. ow. With Painlands you are only at 17 and can then play accordingly. I also preferred pain lands because it slightly increased the number of lands that can tap for <C>. Because of this, I have never been stuck with all color sources and not been able to cast TKS and Reality Smasher. The benefit of Fetches is it lets you play Rest for the Weary, You can play it without but it does make the card slightly worse.
Alright, awesome! Thanks for the input. I think I am gonna go with the fetch plan, I like having extra game vs Blood Moon and Spreading Seas post-board. Here is the list I am currently working on:
With seven processors and 25 lands, I think you should replace the Maps with Claws (I like the Claws, they can hit a target card, and they cantrip). I also think you are removal-light at only 4 PtE's.
What is your thinking on one Displacer in the sideboard? Three Disenchant seems like maybe one too many.
Many--though by no means all--builds are moving away from Sower altogether or cutting him to a one-of.
I think part of Liliana's issue is that in Jund, they can cast all their cards and play all their lands, so being hellbent is not an issue.
We often have no-value herders stuck in hand, or removal we do want to save, or multiple fat expensive Eldrazi we just don't have the lands for yet.
Liliana -no cards in hand plan works a lot better with man lands too, cuz you're threatening them with Raging Ravine/Stirring Wildwood, but they have to discard their removal and your land isn't a creature-target yet.
With seven processors and 25 lands, I think you should replace the Maps with Claws (I like the Claws, they can hit a target card, and they cantrip). I also think you are removal-light at only 4 PtE's.
What is your thinking on one Displacer in the sideboard? Three Disenchant seems like maybe one too many.
Many--though by no means all--builds are moving away from Sower altogether or cutting him to a one-of.
Ok, I will try out some claws, but I agree that my removal suite is lacking. What would you cut for a dismember and maybe a go for the throat or something along those lines?
I am trying out the Displacer for some grindy matchups where having something to do with my mana will be able to win me the game. I am not sure what I think yet, I just think the card has some sort of potential as a repeatable maze of ith or recursive processing effects. I have quite a bit of affinity, merfolk, and Blood Moon decks in my meta, so the extra disenchant is a concession to that fact.
I am personally a fan of the sowers, they give me some more exile effects and help ramp up to Newlamog, but if they end up being more of a liability in the end I will cut them.
I haven't really gotten many reps in with the deck yet, so a lot of my thinking is theory crafing. I appreciate your help!
Hey everyone, I figured I would pipe in on the Liliana of the Veil discussion since I've been testing her as a 2-of. Last league I played I went 3-2 (losing to kiki-resto-chord nonesense... Twice... Eternal Witness is the DEVIL when you can't keep up with their graveyard).
Regardless, I've found that she gets sided out a lot. As was already noted she's better in Jund because she's really close to the top of their curve, so their hand is largely empty when she gets played. Also, they utilize the graveyard for Goyf, Souls (abzan), Tasigur (Jund) so she has better synergy better there. She clogs up out 3-drop slot, and with our acceleration she competes with TKS and Herder/Smasher for the play. She's not yet been the reason for winning a game. She's a good card, and I've played with her a lot in other builds (Jund, RB Tempo, 8-rack), but I just don't think she'll cut it here. I often just wish she had been Ulamog or O-sower (the two 1-ofs I cut for her) so I could ramp into something with Eye of Ugin
I have been testing a 1/2 split of sowers in the main and sideboard. So far I have really liked it. Against a more generalized field, smasher is better. He is like a turn 3 thundermaw hellkite that has a built in 2-for-1 and is great against opposing walkers, which can be a pain. Sower, as many have noted are much harder to cast and tend to linger in the hand too long and don't make enough of an impact on the game, especially early on.
However, the potential ramp and the giant butt of sower make me still love him. So what I have been doing is siding him in as a 3x against other midrange and control decks. While playing other threats first typically, landing a sower just puts a pause on all most all attacks, and still gives control problems with the on-cast trigger. And as we all have seen, he is money in the mirror. Maybe in the future he will go do to a 2x or 1x in the 75, but I have a real hard time fully removing him.
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No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
I have quite a bit of affinity, merfolk, and Blood Moon decks in my meta, so the extra disenchant is a concession to that fact.
I am personally a fan of the sowers, they give me some more exile effects and help ramp up to Newlamog, but if they end up being more of a liability in the end I will cut them.
I haven't really gotten many reps in with the deck yet, so a lot of my thinking is theory crafing. I appreciate your help!
First thing first, I personally a fan of Sower myself and its the card that makes you win against tron - maybe reality smasher does that job too, but sower makes it obvious. Against the rest of the field maybe you can cut him. I'm on the fence between 2 and 3 sowers, currently testing 2 in favour of 4 reality smasher and 3 herders - in preparation for a meta with fast aggro (burn, affinity, infect). While 4 hearders might be better against fast aggro, i think smasher is about interchangable with sower against tron, so i keep my matchup against them equal. I think i might go back and forth testing which of them gets the 4 spot.
Now what is you overall record against affinity, merfolk and blood moon decks - do you win most often with 3 disenchants in the side and what cards do you bring in against the different matchups that you win? Im personally not a fan of Flaying tendrils due to the double black, and all is dust goes nothing against affinity and is too slow for most of the fast aggro decks from my testing.
Essentially what I have noticed against RG Tron is that you need to get them on a clock as fast as possible while trying to keep them off of Tron. This is why Reality Smasher is better. He comes down a turn sooner and swings in 2 turns sooner. If you are able to disrupt their hand and Tron pieces onboard to buy yourself a couple turns, you can usually lethal them. The other main difference for Reality Smasher is that multiples in hand is a great thing. You can easily curve T3 5 damage T4 10 Damage T5 Lethal where as with Oblivion Sower, they clunk up the hand too much and in games where you don't have eye, take too long to hit the board.
I am with folks that are saying "don't give up on Tron". That's right don't give up on it. However don't go out of your way with sideboard cards specifically for tron. I have had middling success against tron but my sideboard for them is 2x Stoney, 2x Duress and 2x Surgical... With all the aggro running around, this is where I cater to Flaying Tendrils and Ratchet Bombs.
My main reason for Ratchet Bombs is I want answers to 3 CMC cards. The biggest one I want an answer for is Ensnaring Bridge. I really don't want to walk into the Lantern Control matchup and just fold because I have like 2 ways to kill a bridge. It also hits Blood Moon and Aether Grid which is a bonus.
Round 1: Bogles (2-1) G1 I IoK his sole in-hand beater, but he top decks gladecover and is just faster. G2 is pretty tense. He is able to get a heavily voltroned bogle on board alongside a kor spiritdancer with a hyena umbra. My board presence is stopping him from attacking because my blocks are better than his bogle even with first strike from coronet. I eventually draw a disenchant for daybreak coronet and break parity. G3 was quicker..he gets a few medium sized dudes going and I warping wail eot into All is dust with 2 TKS on board.
Round 2: Green Machine (2-0) I was able keep experiment one and young wolf under control with a t2 strangler. I got to make an interaction that I had never made before a few turns later...they played Leatherback Baloth and I pathed it, my turn cast another strangler processing Baloth, surgical extracting it and taking the last threat they had in hand and killing a Strangeroot Geist with +1 counter. beautiful. G2 They build their board Experiment One...me: eldrazi temple pass, them: experiment one, young wolf attack for one..me: temple, pass..them: experiment one, avatar of the resolute, attack for 5. me: urborg...flaying tendrils, the game swung wildly in my favor.
Round 3: Jund (2-0) This matchup went very favorable for me until he landed Olivia. She was able to ping all my spirits and grow pretty large while I was threat-lite, I really couldn't add to board because he had mana to ping and take. I was facing lethal next turn and top decked path and finally was able to board the threats I had been holding back for the win. G2 was very favorable, relic kept goyf in check until I hit All is dust. Made a blowout out of what would have been a grindier game. Totally sold...not leaving my sideboard anytime soon.
I'm currently only on one Smasher testing it out. I only cast it once all night and it was good but not game defining so I really don't have a good basis for evalutation. For me I still want the sowers, their body just completely slows the board down, and they bring inevitability. I also like that it is more in line with my processing game plan and makes herder better pretty regularly.
Do you find that you use Warping Wail primarily as ramp, a chump blocker, or as a removal spell for small creatures?
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My 360 Peasant+ Cube!. Modern borders where possible, usually with the newest (or "best") art, and always the most readable card text. I also run all 10 painlands. My playgroup is super casual, as we have a fair number of newer or less experienced players. Typically we draft with 4 to 6 people, using 5 packs of 9.
Do you find that you use Warping Wail primarily as ramp, a chump blocker, or as a removal spell for small creatures?
All of the above? My thing is it's so incredibly versatile. I typically favor removal if possible, ramp and counter as the next mode and then chumps if I absolutely need it. I was play testing against RG tron last night and one game on the play (I had a GQ and Eldrazi Temple in play for T2) he plays his 2nd Tron piece and passes the Turn. EOT I make a Scion. On my turn I drop Eye, GQ one of his pieces, sac the scion and tap temple for Reality Smasher. He couldn't answer that clock in time.
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I'll mix this up and go bottom to top. 2 Flaying Tendrils has been fine out of the board because it kills pretty much every creature they have in Robots and then kills enough out of zoo (nacatl and some Goyfs can dodge it, occasionally knight and scooze but for the most part it does what we need.. it also curves nicely into blight herder if you got 2 creatures. That puts out enough bodies and one that can kill their things.) I am not worried about their removal spells really. I do bring in Surgical so I can either hit Path to Exile or one of their main dudes (like Knight, Ghor-clan Rampager or occasionally Bolt.. makes their topdecks worse and lets you worry about their hand less). Bear in mind I also run Ratchet Bombs because at 1 or 2 it can clear their board when I need it to most. (These are ofcourse matchups where Engineered explosives might be better because it's faster but I like committing 2 mana early and then not having to leave mana open again).
I also don't have Inquisitions so I use Thoughtseize. It hurts some matchups it helps others. In the end I'll try and pick up 1 more inquisition and go to a 2/2 split before Regionals. If not I'll keep my 1/3 IoK/TS.
I have had mixed results with Warping Wail but I still like it. Plenty of creatures so far that have 1 or less P/T and the exile matters. It's also versatile enough for me not to worry too much (worst case it's been a 1/1 blocker).
I expect these decks to be running around as well with the addition of Infect (trying to prey on folks gearing up against burn but still good against RG Tron). Honestly if that is the majority of the matches I face on the day, I think I could do alright. Early games will be a bit clench worthy but those are all winnable matchups (with burn being the worst). Also semi thinking "next game" what I have heard from folks that own Jund is they are playing it for much the same reason I am playing this, familiarity but if the meta is very much aggro heavy, they prey on those decks as well. This could mean that we face more Jund type decks than we have seen recently which would greatly help our chances.
Most of us are split between IoK and TS around 4-5 copies. I currently am shooting for a 2-2 split with 3 TKS. Thoughtseize helps us against some matchups like scapeshift/tron where IoK just isn't good enough.
Fetches gives you more plays postboard vs Blood Moon. Also Rest for the Weary at instant speed.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=98288
Here is the player discussing the tourney on Reddit:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ModernMagic/comments/43uzuq/xpost_from_rspikes_top_4_at_a_59person_scg_iq/
Hes also commenting here, you can see hes report on page 37.
GXTronGX
RWxBurnRWx
Oops. Guess I missed it.
Modern
Value Town
Amulet Titan
Legacy
4C Loam
My Peasant Cube
http://cubetutor.com/viewcube/11667
Alright, awesome! Thanks for the input. I think I am gonna go with the fetch plan, I like having extra game vs Blood Moon and Spreading Seas post-board. Here is the list I am currently working on:
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Eye of Ugin
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Godless Shrine
3 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Swamp
2 Urborg, tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
Creature
4 Blight Herder
2 Oblivion Sower
3 Reality Smasher
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Wasteland Strangler
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Expedition Map
Spells
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Thoughtseize
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 All is Dust
1 Eldrazi Displacer
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Flaying Tendrils
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Stony Silence
3 Rest for the Weary
3 Disenchent
I have a few things I am concerned with/need some help on:
Any other help would be VERY much appreciated!
What is your thinking on one Displacer in the sideboard? Three Disenchant seems like maybe one too many.
Many--though by no means all--builds are moving away from Sower altogether or cutting him to a one-of.
We often have no-value herders stuck in hand, or removal we do want to save, or multiple fat expensive Eldrazi we just don't have the lands for yet.
Liliana -no cards in hand plan works a lot better with man lands too, cuz you're threatening them with Raging Ravine/Stirring Wildwood, but they have to discard their removal and your land isn't a creature-target yet.
Ok, I will try out some claws, but I agree that my removal suite is lacking. What would you cut for a dismember and maybe a go for the throat or something along those lines?
I am trying out the Displacer for some grindy matchups where having something to do with my mana will be able to win me the game. I am not sure what I think yet, I just think the card has some sort of potential as a repeatable maze of ith or recursive processing effects. I have quite a bit of affinity, merfolk, and Blood Moon decks in my meta, so the extra disenchant is a concession to that fact.
I am personally a fan of the sowers, they give me some more exile effects and help ramp up to Newlamog, but if they end up being more of a liability in the end I will cut them.
I haven't really gotten many reps in with the deck yet, so a lot of my thinking is theory crafing. I appreciate your help!
Regardless, I've found that she gets sided out a lot. As was already noted she's better in Jund because she's really close to the top of their curve, so their hand is largely empty when she gets played. Also, they utilize the graveyard for Goyf, Souls (abzan), Tasigur (Jund) so she has better synergy better there. She clogs up out 3-drop slot, and with our acceleration she competes with TKS and Herder/Smasher for the play. She's not yet been the reason for winning a game. She's a good card, and I've played with her a lot in other builds (Jund, RB Tempo, 8-rack), but I just don't think she'll cut it here. I often just wish she had been Ulamog or O-sower (the two 1-ofs I cut for her) so I could ramp into something with Eye of Ugin
Modern: Bogles // 8-Whack/Goblins // UW Titan // Hollow One // Affinity // Dredge
EDH: Nissa, Vastwood Seer // Atraxa, Praetor's Voice // Meren of Clan Nel Toth
However, the potential ramp and the giant butt of sower make me still love him. So what I have been doing is siding him in as a 3x against other midrange and control decks. While playing other threats first typically, landing a sower just puts a pause on all most all attacks, and still gives control problems with the on-cast trigger. And as we all have seen, he is money in the mirror. Maybe in the future he will go do to a 2x or 1x in the 75, but I have a real hard time fully removing him.
Essentially what I have noticed against RG Tron is that you need to get them on a clock as fast as possible while trying to keep them off of Tron. This is why Reality Smasher is better. He comes down a turn sooner and swings in 2 turns sooner. If you are able to disrupt their hand and Tron pieces onboard to buy yourself a couple turns, you can usually lethal them. The other main difference for Reality Smasher is that multiples in hand is a great thing. You can easily curve T3 5 damage T4 10 Damage T5 Lethal where as with Oblivion Sower, they clunk up the hand too much and in games where you don't have eye, take too long to hit the board.
I am with folks that are saying "don't give up on Tron". That's right don't give up on it. However don't go out of your way with sideboard cards specifically for tron. I have had middling success against tron but my sideboard for them is 2x Stoney, 2x Duress and 2x Surgical... With all the aggro running around, this is where I cater to Flaying Tendrils and Ratchet Bombs.
My main reason for Ratchet Bombs is I want answers to 3 CMC cards. The biggest one I want an answer for is Ensnaring Bridge. I really don't want to walk into the Lantern Control matchup and just fold because I have like 2 ways to kill a bridge. It also hits Blood Moon and Aether Grid which is a bonus.
4 Blight Herder
3 Oblivion Sower
1 Reality Smasher
3 Thought-Knot Seer
1 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Path to Exile
1 Warping Wail
4 Lingering Souls
2 Expedition Map
4 Relic of Progenitus
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Eldrazi Temple
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Caves of Koilos
2 Godless Shrine
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Marsh Flats
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Spellskite
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Rest for the Weary
2 Disenchant
2 Stony Silence
1 All is Dust
2 Flaying Tendrils
Round 1: Bogles (2-1) G1 I IoK his sole in-hand beater, but he top decks gladecover and is just faster. G2 is pretty tense. He is able to get a heavily voltroned bogle on board alongside a kor spiritdancer with a hyena umbra. My board presence is stopping him from attacking because my blocks are better than his bogle even with first strike from coronet. I eventually draw a disenchant for daybreak coronet and break parity. G3 was quicker..he gets a few medium sized dudes going and I warping wail eot into All is dust with 2 TKS on board.
Round 2: Green Machine (2-0) I was able keep experiment one and young wolf under control with a t2 strangler. I got to make an interaction that I had never made before a few turns later...they played Leatherback Baloth and I pathed it, my turn cast another strangler processing Baloth, surgical extracting it and taking the last threat they had in hand and killing a Strangeroot Geist with +1 counter. beautiful. G2 They build their board Experiment One...me: eldrazi temple pass, them: experiment one, young wolf attack for one..me: temple, pass..them: experiment one, avatar of the resolute, attack for 5. me: urborg...flaying tendrils, the game swung wildly in my favor.
Round 3: Jund (2-0) This matchup went very favorable for me until he landed Olivia. She was able to ping all my spirits and grow pretty large while I was threat-lite, I really couldn't add to board because he had mana to ping and take. I was facing lethal next turn and top decked path and finally was able to board the threats I had been holding back for the win. G2 was very favorable, relic kept goyf in check until I hit All is dust. Made a blowout out of what would have been a grindier game. Totally sold...not leaving my sideboard anytime soon.
I'm currently only on one Smasher testing it out. I only cast it once all night and it was good but not game defining so I really don't have a good basis for evalutation. For me I still want the sowers, their body just completely slows the board down, and they bring inevitability. I also like that it is more in line with my processing game plan and makes herder better pretty regularly.
All of the above? My thing is it's so incredibly versatile. I typically favor removal if possible, ramp and counter as the next mode and then chumps if I absolutely need it. I was play testing against RG tron last night and one game on the play (I had a GQ and Eldrazi Temple in play for T2) he plays his 2nd Tron piece and passes the Turn. EOT I make a Scion. On my turn I drop Eye, GQ one of his pieces, sac the scion and tap temple for Reality Smasher. He couldn't answer that clock in time.