Neither of those were in the deck. It was ramping for other fatties, but also combod with Knight/Retreat/Cobra to just do insane things. I saw it on the MTGCM_Live Twitch channel today, a Chicago player. Was hoping to track he and his list down. Oh, it also did some crazy Kiki-Jiki/Dryad Arbor/Retreat Combo.
It just seems so fragile, if you don't hit your dorks or they get killed which is most of the time the deck is just going to flounder with a bunch of high cost cards. It also seems like it's trying to jam to many different and non complimentary combos and interactions in. I'd rather have a streamlined deck with a game winning combo + a beatdown plan
It just seems so fragile, if you don't hit your dorks or they get killed which is most of the time the deck is just going to flounder with a bunch of high cost cards. It also seems like it's trying to jam to many different and non complimentary combos and interactions in. I'd rather have a streamlined deck with a game winning combo + a beatdown plan
That's all ramp decks but you'd be surprised how brutal they can be. A ramp deck is almost like a combo deck. The outs to it seem so obvious but pulling it off before they break you can be difficult. Like that Golgari Troll Dredge deck. You'd think if you blow up the graveyard that would be dead in the water but then it reanimates an Iona on you turn 3 before you get your answer.
Skred is bad. I had a feeling that and post-board Blood Moons would be which is one of the reasons I'm advocating Qasali Pridemage so hard. It gives you an out to Blood Moon mainboard, it gives you a way of destroying Splinter Twin, destroying Graveyard hate that can stop your combo, removing Cranial Plating as well.
I'm probably going to run four Pridemage mainboard. The toss up after that is do you run Voice, do you run Skite, do you run something like Meddling Mage... there are so many options there.
Good first outing anyway. Sounds like Smiter put in work as well. I'd definitely be running Smiter over Geist in this deck because of the meta.
I can definitely agree with this. Pridemage put in so much work whenever I saw him, I'm probably going to run 3 copies in main. I can also agree with cutting Geist, I'm glad I didn't pick them up. He just gets blocked by everything or dies to board wipes. This deck is working out so well, I love it so much. I can't wait to see where this all goes.
So I think that the midrange/control versions are solid, but if you want to play something like that you might as well be playing Twin. Instead, I think we should be exploring the ramp potential of coralhelm. With a dork out, coralhelm turns any fetch into a black lotus, and in this deck it can be even more potent than that. I've been playing this online a bunch, and it's damn good. Very consistent. It's biggest strength is that the individual pieces of each combo can be used either for the insta-kill, or as quite powerful spells on their own.
Planeswalkers-Garruk Wildspeaker and Kiora, master of the depths are both mana engines and clocks, and are usually must-be-dealt-with threats when they resolve. +1 garruk immediately and not only is he out of bolt range, but your opponent is looking at a free Overrun next turn unless he's dealt with. Kiora's ult wins games if you get it, but most people won't let you get anywhere near it.Ugin, the spirit dragon and Karn Liberated are absolutely beastmode at stealing games. Creatures-Knight of the Reliquary and Xenagos, God of Revels are the main beaters here. Xenagos is an all-star every time I see him, and works as a combo piece or a beater. Emrakul, the aeons torn is an obvious wincon, and this deck can HARDCAST him as early as turn 4. Combo- Obviously the knightfall combo is here, but you can also entwine Tooth and Nail to grab Xenagos and Emrakul and swing for 30 with annihilator 6. Dig- Kiora is great dig for creatures and lands, and Harmonize can be cast as early as turn 2. Tooth and Nail can be used to grab a knight for the combo, or just cast for 7 if you have emrakul in hand. Retreat to Coralhelm is pulling quadruple duty here, because you can scry to find what you need with each land drop. Protection-Twiddle works double duty as a ramp spell and a proactive protection spell, which you can use to tapdown mana an opponent is holding to counter, or tapdown a creature. Retreat to Coralhelm also does quadruple duty this way, and cracking a fetch to tapdown in response to twin is hilariously relevant Ramp- The main reason the deck works is the synergy with the ramp. Nearly all of the above spells are some form of ramp, including Knight. Arbor Elf + Utopia sprawl = minimum 4 mana turn 2. This deck can out-tron Tron, and hits a max of 11 mana on turn 3, as opposed to 7, thanks to spells like Twiddle and their synergy with the land enchantments.
Clock: The best part about all the ramp is how fast you can combo kill. Turn 3 kills are possible and frequent with either combo, and both happen the same way: Ramp. You can certainly get 9 mana easy enough by turn 3, and you can ramp out a knight turn 2 to play coralhelm turn 3 as well.
In terms of play, it's actually pretty similar to tron. You spend turns 1-3 assembling your mana ramp. Because it mostly uses enchants and basic lands, it's a lot more resilient to cards like Blood Moon and Ghost Quarter, or really any nonbasic hate, at the cost of being weaker to creature removal on your dorks.
This may not be the place to ask, but Im building a knightfall deck and Im missing some important cards: Goyf, Hierarch, Voice.
I was thinking of slowly buying Hierarchs or Voices, but Im not sure which should I get first. Right now Im replacing Hierarchs with Avacyn Pilgrim (not sure if Arbor Elf would do a better job since we are running so many fetches and we can fetch more forest/whatever, and still dont like that its not a mana ability), and Voices with extra Scooze and Pridemages.
Most likely hierarchs. There are tons of options at the 2-drop slot, all dorks are seriously inferior to Hierarchs. Hierarchs are also pretty underpriced right now due to the recent reprint.
That said, I'm starting to think about cutting back on 3-drops and trying to curve out more--What I find is it's hard to get the balance right with hierarchs as your only ramp and I don't care for the other 1-drop dork options. The way the deck has to be built (needing enough forests/plains to fuel Knight, needing 7-8 3 drops automatically, and having all the best cards in the colors be 3-drops) make it really hard to build without dorks though.
I'm considering making more of an effort to create landfalls--playing cards like Search for Tomorrow and Sakura-Tribe elder--than dorks that can theoretically take advantage of landfall. But just can't get the balance right there. Maybe Utopia Sprawl is the right angle.
The deck really wants to accelerate from 1-3, and that just feels clunky a lot of the time. Lots of manabase sacrifices you have to make to get there.
Most likely hierarchs. There are tons of options at the 2-drop slot, all dorks are seriously inferior to Hierarchs. Hierarchs are also pretty underpriced right now due to the recent reprint.
That said, I'm starting to think about cutting back on 3-drops and trying to curve out more--What I find is it's hard to get the balance right with hierarchs as your only ramp and I don't care for the other 1-drop dork options. The way the deck has to be built (needing enough forests/plains to fuel Knight, needing 7-8 3 drops automatically, and having all the best cards in the colors be 3-drops) make it really hard to build without dorks though.
I'm considering making more of an effort to create landfalls--playing cards like Search for Tomorrow and Sakura-Tribe elder--than dorks that can theoretically take advantage of landfall. But just can't get the balance right there. Maybe Utopia Sprawl is the right angle.
The deck really wants to accelerate from 1-3, and that just feels clunky a lot of the time. Lots of manabase sacrifices you have to make to get there.
I think sprawl is a great option if you're using satyr and arbor elf. My deck I posted above can pretty reliably generate 4 mana by turn 2 with Sprawl+elf, or Sprawl+twiddles. But my deck is also much more focused on trying to achieve one of the combo-wins, with Knight/Xenagos/Token beatdown as backup plans.
Skred is bad. I had a feeling that and post-board Blood Moons would be which is one of the reasons I'm advocating Qasali Pridemage so hard. It gives you an out to Blood Moon mainboard, it gives you a way of destroying Splinter Twin, destroying Graveyard hate that can stop your combo, removing Cranial Plating as well.
I'm probably going to run four Pridemage mainboard. The toss up after that is do you run Voice, do you run Skite, do you run something like Meddling Mage... there are so many options there.
Good first outing anyway. Sounds like Smiter put in work as well. I'd definitely be running Smiter over Geist in this deck because of the meta.
I can definitely agree with this. Pridemage put in so much work whenever I saw him, I'm probably going to run 3 copies in main. I can also agree with cutting Geist, I'm glad I didn't pick them up. He just gets blocked by everything or dies to board wipes. This deck is working out so well, I love it so much. I can't wait to see where this all goes.
Geist works very well if you're running a lot of removal or if you have powerful equipment in your deck. Something like Sword of Feast and Famine. In the end though, Geist is just a clock. Smiter on the other hand is an answer to Liliana, it's a timewarp against Remand and a strong blocker as well as beatstick.
I know in my deck I was arguing against Smiter a bit but that's because Lingering Souls works so well with the other stuff I'm running and I like the option to cast it for five with the mana dork twiddle.
Turn 2 Geist is hard to deal with for a lot of decks, especially if you are supporting with exalted creatures (most knightfall decks are running at least 6). Combine that with Retreat allowing you to tap down creatures Geist becomes pretty good.
That all being said, I have yet to actually swing with one Geist in my testing. I've landed him twice. One caused a scoop and the other ate a pyroclasm. I run a 2/2 split with smiter. If you are on ththe Gavony plan I think he is a lot better.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
Not gonna tell people how to build the deck, but I really have to question the idea of cutting Geist. The card is the peak of efficiency in this deck and is immune to targeted removal. I think something has gone wrong in the deckbuilding if cutting Geist is an idea.
I'm not saying he should stay in for all matchups - I have 3 Rhox War Monk in the board to swap in for aggro matches that I want to stabilize where geist is less helpful. I would highly advise against removing geist from the maindeck.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Geist. Geist is one of my favourite cards ever printed. If I had to pick a top 5 creatures it would be top 3.
Exalted does make Geist better I just question what Geist does other than damage and while Geist has synergy with Exalted it can be a 3 mana bullet for 4 damage outside of that a lot of the time. It has serious issues when you start running into stuff like Lingering Souls.
I think it depends on what kind of strategy you're going with for the deck. If you're going for all out aggro to try build the fastest clock you can outside of the combo Heirarch into Geist is a very fast clock. If you're trying to covers some of the weaknesses of the deck and make it more rounded there are a lot of other options in the 3 spot which is VERY competitive in a deck that wants to run Knight and Coralhelm (both 3 drops).
Now personally, I like Souls but I understand people don't want to run black. Souls is just really good with Gavony, it's boardwipe resistant and with 5 mana lets you go all out with flying bleed. It also gives you expendable chump blockers and a bunch of other things. Souls has been a Modern staple for a long time, it's falling out of favour slightly but I wouldn't discount it.
Options I think are worth discussion include - Kitchen Finks - The main use of Finks is obviously lifegain which is relevant against the likes of Burn even on mainboard. They are boardwipe resistant in a sense though and can be reset with a Restoration Angel or repumped with something like Gavony Township or a card like Dromoka's Command. Troll Ascetic - Also Hexproof like Geist but can regenerate. It can be impossible to remove and stalls making it easier to buy the time you need to combo. Blade Splicer - Not a card you see much of very often but is two blockers on one cost, works well alongside Restoration Angels and the fact the creature it creates is colourless can be handy.
Seems decent, although a bit unfocused. It has all the 'core' cards but also some different tech choices. While these are good since no accepted list has been found, you can still argue that there are 'better' cards to be running in place, ie: make a more redundant deck.
Retreat To(oth) Coralhelm:
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Verdant Catacombs (or whatever fetch)
5 x Forest
2 x G/W Duals- maybe one of the bfz ones?
1 x Breeding Pool
1 x U/W Dual- maybe one of the bfz ones?
1 x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 x Cavern of Souls
1 x Dryad Arbor
1 x Sejiri Steppe
4 x Arbor Elf
4 x Lotus Cobra
4 x Knight of the Reliquary
1 x Eternal Witness
1 x Courser of Kruphix
3 x Primeval Titan
1 x Sun Titan
1 x Platinum Angel
1 x Archetype of Endurance
1 x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 x Utopia Sprawl
4 x Retreat to Coralhelm
4 x Harmonize
4 x Tooth and Nail
SB:
1 x Elesh Norn
1 x Iona
1 x Eternal Witness
1 x Spellskite
1 x Linvala
1 x Ghost Quarter
2 x Creeping Corrosion
3 x Emrakul
4 x Summoning Trap
The manabase is interesting. 7 basics, 11 fetches. No Sejiri Steppe is an odd (probably bad) choice. I feel like Undergrowth Champion is a little cute, and Glen Elendra Archmage should probably be cut for straight countermagic. Apart from that, I think it looks good. Baneslayer as a curve-topper is something I have considered, but ultimately she's just a big dumb beater. Ojutai is probably a better choice. Or even a couple Wilt-leaf Liege. Still, clearly the deck had some success, which should give us hope that sharper versions should do even better.
Seems decent, although a bit unfocused. It has all the 'core' cards but also some different tech choices. While these are good since no accepted list has been found, you can still argue that there are 'better' cards to be running in place, ie: make a more redundant deck.
Ah yeah, you're right on that one. Never checked because I hadn't felt the need to run him in outside of Commander. Got mixed up by the contemporary art and borders. There are other potential card draw engines that are Modern legal like Ohran Viper.
I think the list looks great! There's a few notable cards I'd change myself, but I 100% love and can support what the deck is trying to do and where its focus is. Firstly I think the mix of creatures and interaction is awesome. 9 pieces of interaction is great. I like the midrange beaters. Although i would prefer Ojutai in the baneslayer slot, a second E Witness, and glen elendra in my first round of testing I found a little lacklustre but i don't hate it, but also think id be indifferent on its replacement with something else. Weakest part looks to be undergrowth champion, but if Mihkel Altmets comes in here and tells me the card's the stone nuts than id have to believe him as i haven't tried it myself.
But as a whole i love the list, great to see it put up a solid finish like this.
That's all ramp decks but you'd be surprised how brutal they can be. A ramp deck is almost like a combo deck. The outs to it seem so obvious but pulling it off before they break you can be difficult. Like that Golgari Troll Dredge deck. You'd think if you blow up the graveyard that would be dead in the water but then it reanimates an Iona on you turn 3 before you get your answer.
I can definitely agree with this. Pridemage put in so much work whenever I saw him, I'm probably going to run 3 copies in main. I can also agree with cutting Geist, I'm glad I didn't pick them up. He just gets blocked by everything or dies to board wipes. This deck is working out so well, I love it so much. I can't wait to see where this all goes.
Planeswalkers- Garruk Wildspeaker and Kiora, master of the depths are both mana engines and clocks, and are usually must-be-dealt-with threats when they resolve. +1 garruk immediately and not only is he out of bolt range, but your opponent is looking at a free Overrun next turn unless he's dealt with. Kiora's ult wins games if you get it, but most people won't let you get anywhere near it.Ugin, the spirit dragon and Karn Liberated are absolutely beastmode at stealing games.
Creatures- Knight of the Reliquary and Xenagos, God of Revels are the main beaters here. Xenagos is an all-star every time I see him, and works as a combo piece or a beater. Emrakul, the aeons torn is an obvious wincon, and this deck can HARDCAST him as early as turn 4.
Combo- Obviously the knightfall combo is here, but you can also entwine Tooth and Nail to grab Xenagos and Emrakul and swing for 30 with annihilator 6.
Dig- Kiora is great dig for creatures and lands, and Harmonize can be cast as early as turn 2. Tooth and Nail can be used to grab a knight for the combo, or just cast for 7 if you have emrakul in hand. Retreat to Coralhelm is pulling quadruple duty here, because you can scry to find what you need with each land drop.
Protection- Twiddle works double duty as a ramp spell and a proactive protection spell, which you can use to tapdown mana an opponent is holding to counter, or tapdown a creature. Retreat to Coralhelm also does quadruple duty this way, and cracking a fetch to tapdown in response to twin is hilariously relevant
Ramp- The main reason the deck works is the synergy with the ramp. Nearly all of the above spells are some form of ramp, including Knight. Arbor Elf + Utopia sprawl = minimum 4 mana turn 2. This deck can out-tron Tron, and hits a max of 11 mana on turn 3, as opposed to 7, thanks to spells like Twiddle and their synergy with the land enchantments.
Clock: The best part about all the ramp is how fast you can combo kill. Turn 3 kills are possible and frequent with either combo, and both happen the same way: Ramp. You can certainly get 9 mana easy enough by turn 3, and you can ramp out a knight turn 2 to play coralhelm turn 3 as well.
1x xenagos, god of revels
4x arbor elf
4x voyaging satyr
3x retreat to coralhelm
3x knight of the reliquary
3x harmonize
2x garruk wildspeaker
2x karn liberated
1x ugin, the spirit dragon
2x Kiora, master of the depths
4x tooth and nail
4x utopia sprawl
3x fertile ground
3x twiddle
1x breeding pool
8x forest
1x kessig wolf run
1x stomping ground
1x temple garden
4x wooded foothills
4x windswept heath
In terms of play, it's actually pretty similar to tron. You spend turns 1-3 assembling your mana ramp. Because it mostly uses enchants and basic lands, it's a lot more resilient to cards like Blood Moon and Ghost Quarter, or really any nonbasic hate, at the cost of being weaker to creature removal on your dorks.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
I was thinking of slowly buying Hierarchs or Voices, but Im not sure which should I get first. Right now Im replacing Hierarchs with Avacyn Pilgrim (not sure if Arbor Elf would do a better job since we are running so many fetches and we can fetch more forest/whatever, and still dont like that its not a mana ability), and Voices with extra Scooze and Pridemages.
Anyone with any insight on the matter?
That said, I'm starting to think about cutting back on 3-drops and trying to curve out more--What I find is it's hard to get the balance right with hierarchs as your only ramp and I don't care for the other 1-drop dork options. The way the deck has to be built (needing enough forests/plains to fuel Knight, needing 7-8 3 drops automatically, and having all the best cards in the colors be 3-drops) make it really hard to build without dorks though.
I'm considering making more of an effort to create landfalls--playing cards like Search for Tomorrow and Sakura-Tribe elder--than dorks that can theoretically take advantage of landfall. But just can't get the balance right there. Maybe Utopia Sprawl is the right angle.
The deck really wants to accelerate from 1-3, and that just feels clunky a lot of the time. Lots of manabase sacrifices you have to make to get there.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I think sprawl is a great option if you're using satyr and arbor elf. My deck I posted above can pretty reliably generate 4 mana by turn 2 with Sprawl+elf, or Sprawl+twiddles. But my deck is also much more focused on trying to achieve one of the combo-wins, with Knight/Xenagos/Token beatdown as backup plans.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Geist works very well if you're running a lot of removal or if you have powerful equipment in your deck. Something like Sword of Feast and Famine. In the end though, Geist is just a clock. Smiter on the other hand is an answer to Liliana, it's a timewarp against Remand and a strong blocker as well as beatstick.
I know in my deck I was arguing against Smiter a bit but that's because Lingering Souls works so well with the other stuff I'm running and I like the option to cast it for five with the mana dork twiddle.
That all being said, I have yet to actually swing with one Geist in my testing. I've landed him twice. One caused a scoop and the other ate a pyroclasm. I run a 2/2 split with smiter. If you are on ththe Gavony plan I think he is a lot better.
I'm not saying he should stay in for all matchups - I have 3 Rhox War Monk in the board to swap in for aggro matches that I want to stabilize where geist is less helpful. I would highly advise against removing geist from the maindeck.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Exalted does make Geist better I just question what Geist does other than damage and while Geist has synergy with Exalted it can be a 3 mana bullet for 4 damage outside of that a lot of the time. It has serious issues when you start running into stuff like Lingering Souls.
I think it depends on what kind of strategy you're going with for the deck. If you're going for all out aggro to try build the fastest clock you can outside of the combo Heirarch into Geist is a very fast clock. If you're trying to covers some of the weaknesses of the deck and make it more rounded there are a lot of other options in the 3 spot which is VERY competitive in a deck that wants to run Knight and Coralhelm (both 3 drops).
Now personally, I like Souls but I understand people don't want to run black. Souls is just really good with Gavony, it's boardwipe resistant and with 5 mana lets you go all out with flying bleed. It also gives you expendable chump blockers and a bunch of other things. Souls has been a Modern staple for a long time, it's falling out of favour slightly but I wouldn't discount it.
Options I think are worth discussion include -
Kitchen Finks - The main use of Finks is obviously lifegain which is relevant against the likes of Burn even on mainboard. They are boardwipe resistant in a sense though and can be reset with a Restoration Angel or repumped with something like Gavony Township or a card like Dromoka's Command.
Troll Ascetic - Also Hexproof like Geist but can regenerate. It can be impossible to remove and stalls making it easier to buy the time you need to combo.
Blade Splicer - Not a card you see much of very often but is two blockers on one cost, works well alongside Restoration Angels and the fact the creature it creates is colourless can be handy.
The list goes on and on. Jenara, Asura of War is another one.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=10644&d=260931&f=MO
Seems decent, although a bit unfocused. It has all the 'core' cards but also some different tech choices. While these are good since no accepted list has been found, you can still argue that there are 'better' cards to be running in place, ie: make a more redundant deck.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Retreat To(oth) Coralhelm:
4 x Windswept Heath
4 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Verdant Catacombs (or whatever fetch)
5 x Forest
2 x G/W Duals- maybe one of the bfz ones?
1 x Breeding Pool
1 x U/W Dual- maybe one of the bfz ones?
1 x Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 x Cavern of Souls
1 x Dryad Arbor
1 x Sejiri Steppe
4 x Arbor Elf
4 x Lotus Cobra
4 x Knight of the Reliquary
1 x Eternal Witness
1 x Courser of Kruphix
3 x Primeval Titan
1 x Sun Titan
1 x Platinum Angel
1 x Archetype of Endurance
1 x Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 x Utopia Sprawl
4 x Retreat to Coralhelm
4 x Harmonize
4 x Tooth and Nail
SB:
1 x Elesh Norn
1 x Iona
1 x Eternal Witness
1 x Spellskite
1 x Linvala
1 x Ghost Quarter
2 x Creeping Corrosion
3 x Emrakul
4 x Summoning Trap
The manabase is interesting. 7 basics, 11 fetches. No Sejiri Steppe is an odd (probably bad) choice. I feel like Undergrowth Champion is a little cute, and Glen Elendra Archmage should probably be cut for straight countermagic. Apart from that, I think it looks good. Baneslayer as a curve-topper is something I have considered, but ultimately she's just a big dumb beater. Ojutai is probably a better choice. Or even a couple Wilt-leaf Liege. Still, clearly the deck had some success, which should give us hope that sharper versions should do even better.
CG
Ah yeah, you're right on that one. Never checked because I hadn't felt the need to run him in outside of Commander. Got mixed up by the contemporary art and borders. There are other potential card draw engines that are Modern legal like Ohran Viper.
I think the list looks great! There's a few notable cards I'd change myself, but I 100% love and can support what the deck is trying to do and where its focus is. Firstly I think the mix of creatures and interaction is awesome. 9 pieces of interaction is great. I like the midrange beaters. Although i would prefer Ojutai in the baneslayer slot, a second E Witness, and glen elendra in my first round of testing I found a little lacklustre but i don't hate it, but also think id be indifferent on its replacement with something else. Weakest part looks to be undergrowth champion, but if Mihkel Altmets comes in here and tells me the card's the stone nuts than id have to believe him as i haven't tried it myself.
But as a whole i love the list, great to see it put up a solid finish like this.