Are you always able to win in one shot with the knight? I've found the repeatable trample to be very useful to close out the match with the second hit
I agree with this poster's scepticism--IMO, a land that pumps significant amounts of power is needed maindeck in order for the Turn 3-4 combo to actually threaten lethal. I already lost a game because I could deal only 19 damage while trying to play around Bolt to the head (i.e. stay at 4+ life). That's what pushed me away from Kessig Wolf Run and into Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion + Rogue's Passage in Bant lists.
A combo that can't rip out an opponent's entire life total in one shot isn't a good enough combo, IMO.
I'm not sure I agree. If the deck is combo-centric, then the one-shot kill is pretty important. However, in company lists it really is more of a plan B. Moreover, the games where hitting for 19 is insufficient but 23 would be money(from 6 mana kessig wolf run are few.
Interesting to hear that some people are finding it to be problematic without kessig/rogue's/sunhome - could be a variance thing still that I'm not seeing those games.
Cheers guys, keep jammin the games and reporting back what is working/not working for you.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Sounds like tribal decks that go wide are a problem for this deck still, which again pushes me back to supreme verdict. This deck recovers well from board wipes, especially if it works the academy ruins angle. EE seems a bit narrow to me actually, as it will miss many problem threats.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
So far if I draw EE I win, so I'm experimenting with some trinket mages. So far, have wanted to side in trinket mage almost always--he's ridiculous for finding Hangarback.
I lost a really close match against a weird Esper midrange deck earlier tonight, came down to him having a second dispel in hand out of 3 cards - and I woulda gotten there if I'd been more aggressive at pumping out threats. I thought he had wraths and he didn't seem to, all I had to do was jam a couple hangarbacks earlier in the game and I'd have gotten there.
I didn't realize what was in his deck really either, just craploads of lingering souls and colonnades were the main threat--woulda brought in explosives if I'd had the foggiest idea.
I feel like, so far, this deck can beat almost anything if I've got the sideboard tuned right and make the right sideboarding decisions. Unfortunately on Xmage I just run into all kinds of random nonsense and it's not giving me a lot of good practice, so I am going to give up on playing games for a while. I haven't played against a tier 2+ deck in days
Just to catalog some of the weaknesses of the deck as I have it:
1) Fliers are a problem. Lingering souls, restoration angels, colonnades. Not sure what the right answer is there, but it usually is a matter of how aggressively I play I think - I need to be jamming hangarbacks more aggressively against these kinds of decks I think. Because our gameplan other than combo is a little slow we've got to be pretty aggressive to out-race a flier deck.
2) Tribal decks that go wide are very bad game 1. Once we have a set of explosives it gets a lot better, and we can usually just beat them down.
--weirdly, traditional merfolk is pretty easy it feels like. The number of 2-for-1s we present is pretty hard for them to deal with if they can't stick a Spreading Seas (which we can play around pretty well with Knight).
3) Combo decks can be a problem if we don't get an aggressive start and some interaction that matters. Usually this means Voice, Goyf, Walker or Knight deployed early to provide pressure. Our sideboard is pretty strong though.
And some thoughts I've had so far:
1) Trinket mage is insane. Possibly good enough to maindeck.
2) Thinking about a single EE main deck if I do play some trinket mages.
3) Dromoka's Command and Stubborn Denial both feel like we're about 2 fatties short of being optimal. I'm giving some serious thought to adding some fatter creatures. Dromoka's is always sick if I can get a HBW to stick too.
4) Elspeth has been really hit or miss. Pretty sure she is going to get cut for a strong 4-drop creature. She's great vs. Jund, but really poor otherwise.
The weakest cards in the main deck have been:
Tarmogoyf
Spellskite
Stubborn Denial
Elspeth, Knight_Errant
Dromoka's Command
In approximately that order (worst to best).
So here's what I am considering - I'm still testing as is:
1) Cut goyfs, skite down to 1, slot a mix of chords and trinket mages (4/1 or 3/2).
2) Cut stubborn denial for 2 chordable answers (1x qasali pridemage, 1x scavenging ooze are my two first thoughts)
--one lame thing here is that stubborn is SO GOOD against planeswalkers. Might be best to have a phyrexian revoker in there.
3) Cut Elspeth, Knight Errant for some critter that shores something up, probably Linvala?
So far I am leaving the deck as is until I get a chance to test vs. Twin/Jund/Tron with my playgroup, but that's where my head is.
-Impersonator becomes whatever is on the field you want it to be. (even a retreat)
-Resto can protect Knight.
-Emeria Angel is interesting. It can spit out as many flyers as you want with a Knight in play.
-Windborn Muse is a chordable prison
-Magus is a chordable wrath (and can get untapped with retreat)
Ojutai seems interesting, as you can go turn 1 Hierarch, turn 2 Knight, turn 3 Ojutai. It even has synergy with Retreat, as with a fetch up (or, again, Knight) he can untap at instant speed.
Stubborn Denial might be better than Pierce here, but I don't feel it's reliable enough. It's better when it's active, of course, but if you're going hierarch -> Geist -> Disruption, Denial isn't active when you want it to be. I'm not in love with Leak, but I think it might pull some weight. Serum Visions helps assemble the combo, find gas in the late game, and pumps up goyf.
Also, I think it's important there be a Quarter in the main deck. It's a good bullet against Tron and Amulet, and it doesn't screw up the combo as long as you have a basic left in the deck.
Also there are no solid results yet, and because of this the primer is pretty general and everyone is going to be saying "But what about X pet card of mine! Why isn't it included?"
And the deck may just end up becoming a Zoo deck splashing blue... so that'll probably go in the Zoo thread. If it stays Bant then we can merge stuff or just create a new one altogether.
One thing to note is that Courser of Kruphix allows you to combo off while gaining life. A few times here I have been at 3 or so and combo'd off by getting up to 3 mana by:
1) get fetchland, float G with hierarch, untap hierarch, float G
2) crack fetchland, go to 2, untap knight, float G from the new land (forest or canopy vista)
3) cast courser
4) Go off
Finks is really strong with township, so that's something worth considering, but Courser's ability to draw cards is really desirable.
Also, re: Ojutai-
Being able to tutor up Minamo, flying, and providing a source of card advantage make him very desirable. I will almost surely give him a try at some point. Probably better than Elspeth. Fitting Minamo in is going to mean sacrificing a fetchable basic island, but I think we can afford that (especially if we cut stubborn denials).
And completely unrelated:
What do people think about Trinket Mage? Is that just too cute? So far the times I have trinket mage'd for Hangarback have felt really, really good. Basically drawing two cards.
I think its a pretty solid addition, my issue is, I have next to none of those cards and I dont know if I want to go this way in paper, or Grishoalbrand.
And completely unrelated:
What do people think about Trinket Mage? Is that just too cute? So far the times I have trinket mage'd for Hangarback have felt really, really good. Basically drawing two cards.
I think its too cute unless trinket mage has a toolbox to pul form but right now its basically just EE and HBW. I think the turn to play trinket which isnt cheap at 3cmc for a 2/2 and then the next turn to play the HBW as another probable 2/2 and then spend turns growing it... Just seems like the game will be locked up by the opponent before you get any pressure out. The only match it seems good in is maybe Jund where you have some time to durdle and are just trying to stay ahead in card advantage. And even then i think there are better threats that dont dilute your ability to apply pressure. I think i was the one to originally mention TRinket mage in this thread but that was more just to point out the interaction, i think its to slow
Heres my bant verison. I know it was highly requested for a while, but I didnt have the time to do it justice. Im still very much on the naya version (not just for zoo reasons, I actually like it better overall) but this is as far as I got with it before abandoning it (which was pretty far)
The Communes and Insights are there to find combo pieces, find Loams to leave in the graveyard and make Tarmogoyf's bigger; five of that type of effect has seemed right. The manabase has worked for me in informal games within reason, but I need a lot more practice with it before really advocating for it.
I have really liked life from the loam the few times I got it to go off (have won with loam/quarter loop before). Really strong with Knight. Being able to reuse fetchlands even is really strong.
I agree with this poster's scepticism--IMO, a land that pumps significant amounts of power is needed maindeck in order for the Turn 3-4 combo to actually threaten lethal. I already lost a game because I could deal only 19 damage while trying to play around Bolt to the head (i.e. stay at 4+ life). That's what pushed me away from Kessig Wolf Run and into Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion + Rogue's Passage in Bant lists.
A combo that can't rip out an opponent's entire life total in one shot isn't a good enough combo, IMO.
Interesting to hear that some people are finding it to be problematic without kessig/rogue's/sunhome - could be a variance thing still that I'm not seeing those games.
Cheers guys, keep jammin the games and reporting back what is working/not working for you.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I lost a really close match against a weird Esper midrange deck earlier tonight, came down to him having a second dispel in hand out of 3 cards - and I woulda gotten there if I'd been more aggressive at pumping out threats. I thought he had wraths and he didn't seem to, all I had to do was jam a couple hangarbacks earlier in the game and I'd have gotten there.
I didn't realize what was in his deck really either, just craploads of lingering souls and colonnades were the main threat--woulda brought in explosives if I'd had the foggiest idea.
I feel like, so far, this deck can beat almost anything if I've got the sideboard tuned right and make the right sideboarding decisions. Unfortunately on Xmage I just run into all kinds of random nonsense and it's not giving me a lot of good practice, so I am going to give up on playing games for a while. I haven't played against a tier 2+ deck in days
Just to catalog some of the weaknesses of the deck as I have it:
1) Fliers are a problem. Lingering souls, restoration angels, colonnades. Not sure what the right answer is there, but it usually is a matter of how aggressively I play I think - I need to be jamming hangarbacks more aggressively against these kinds of decks I think. Because our gameplan other than combo is a little slow we've got to be pretty aggressive to out-race a flier deck.
2) Tribal decks that go wide are very bad game 1. Once we have a set of explosives it gets a lot better, and we can usually just beat them down.
--weirdly, traditional merfolk is pretty easy it feels like. The number of 2-for-1s we present is pretty hard for them to deal with if they can't stick a Spreading Seas (which we can play around pretty well with Knight).
3) Combo decks can be a problem if we don't get an aggressive start and some interaction that matters. Usually this means Voice, Goyf, Walker or Knight deployed early to provide pressure. Our sideboard is pretty strong though.
Here's the current decklist:
1 Academy Ruins
2 Breeding Pool
1 Canopy Vista
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Island
2 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
Bros
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Spellskite
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
Interaction
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Path to Exile
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Dromoka's Command
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Life from the Loam
2 Negate
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Trinket Mage
And some thoughts I've had so far:
1) Trinket mage is insane. Possibly good enough to maindeck.
2) Thinking about a single EE main deck if I do play some trinket mages.
3) Dromoka's Command and Stubborn Denial both feel like we're about 2 fatties short of being optimal. I'm giving some serious thought to adding some fatter creatures. Dromoka's is always sick if I can get a HBW to stick too.
4) Elspeth has been really hit or miss. Pretty sure she is going to get cut for a strong 4-drop creature. She's great vs. Jund, but really poor otherwise.
The weakest cards in the main deck have been:
Tarmogoyf
Spellskite
Stubborn Denial
Elspeth, Knight_Errant
Dromoka's Command
In approximately that order (worst to best).
So here's what I am considering - I'm still testing as is:
1) Cut goyfs, skite down to 1, slot a mix of chords and trinket mages (4/1 or 3/2).
2) Cut stubborn denial for 2 chordable answers (1x qasali pridemage, 1x scavenging ooze are my two first thoughts)
--one lame thing here is that stubborn is SO GOOD against planeswalkers. Might be best to have a phyrexian revoker in there.
3) Cut Elspeth, Knight Errant for some critter that shores something up, probably Linvala?
So far I am leaving the deck as is until I get a chance to test vs. Twin/Jund/Tron with my playgroup, but that's where my head is.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Spirits
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Just some 4-drops I could find in Bant colors.
-Impersonator becomes whatever is on the field you want it to be. (even a retreat)
-Resto can protect Knight.
-Emeria Angel is interesting. It can spit out as many flyers as you want with a Knight in play.
-Windborn Muse is a chordable prison
-Magus is a chordable wrath (and can get untapped with retreat)
WBG Karador GBW
R Daretti R
RG Omnath GR
WRG Modern Burn GRW
WB Modern Tokens BW
DCI Rules Advisor as of 5/18/2015
That said, here's where I'm going to be starting:
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Bird of Paradise
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scagenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Serum Visions
4 Path to Exile
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce
1 Bant Charm
Enchantments (4)
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
9 Fetches
5 Shocklands
5 Basics
1 Sejiri Steppes
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Townships
Stubborn Denial might be better than Pierce here, but I don't feel it's reliable enough. It's better when it's active, of course, but if you're going hierarch -> Geist -> Disruption, Denial isn't active when you want it to be. I'm not in love with Leak, but I think it might pull some weight. Serum Visions helps assemble the combo, find gas in the late game, and pumps up goyf.
Also, I think it's important there be a Quarter in the main deck. It's a good bullet against Tron and Amulet, and it doesn't screw up the combo as long as you have a basic left in the deck.
Also, who's got our primer?
Also there are no solid results yet, and because of this the primer is pretty general and everyone is going to be saying "But what about X pet card of mine! Why isn't it included?"
And the deck may just end up becoming a Zoo deck splashing blue... so that'll probably go in the Zoo thread. If it stays Bant then we can merge stuff or just create a new one altogether.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
1) get fetchland, float G with hierarch, untap hierarch, float G
2) crack fetchland, go to 2, untap knight, float G from the new land (forest or canopy vista)
3) cast courser
4) Go off
Finks is really strong with township, so that's something worth considering, but Courser's ability to draw cards is really desirable.
Also, re: Ojutai-
Being able to tutor up Minamo, flying, and providing a source of card advantage make him very desirable. I will almost surely give him a try at some point. Probably better than Elspeth. Fitting Minamo in is going to mean sacrificing a fetchable basic island, but I think we can afford that (especially if we cut stubborn denials).
And completely unrelated:
What do people think about Trinket Mage? Is that just too cute? So far the times I have trinket mage'd for Hangarback have felt really, really good. Basically drawing two cards.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Spirits
I think its too cute unless trinket mage has a toolbox to pul form but right now its basically just EE and HBW. I think the turn to play trinket which isnt cheap at 3cmc for a 2/2 and then the next turn to play the HBW as another probable 2/2 and then spend turns growing it... Just seems like the game will be locked up by the opponent before you get any pressure out. The only match it seems good in is maybe Jund where you have some time to durdle and are just trying to stay ahead in card advantage. And even then i think there are better threats that dont dilute your ability to apply pressure. I think i was the one to originally mention TRinket mage in this thread but that was more just to point out the interaction, i think its to slow
https://youtu.be/dz8seCWt5SU
1 Breeding Pool
3 Cinder Glade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
1 Treetop Village
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Commune with the Gods
4 Life from the Loam
2 Magmatic Insight
4 Molten Vortex
3 Negate
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Creatures
2 Courser of Kruphix
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Plated Geopede
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Rhox War Monk
3 Anger of the Gods
3 Ancient Grudge
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Rending Volley
2 Wipe Away
1 Scavenging Ooze
The deck has multiple lines of attack:
Knight / Retreat
Vortex / Loam
Geopede / Loam --> Fetchland recursion
Ghost Quarter / Loam mana denial
Straightforward Beatdown
The Communes and Insights are there to find combo pieces, find Loams to leave in the graveyard and make Tarmogoyf's bigger; five of that type of effect has seemed right. The manabase has worked for me in informal games within reason, but I need a lot more practice with it before really advocating for it.
Might be something I try again, esp w. Commune.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall