So more thinking on ruse:
UU is very taxing on the manabase when we also want GW and WW/GG.
I think it is critical that if we use U based disruption it be single pip. Stubborn denial, spell pierce or swan song feel right to me. Negate feels potentially good, but the tempo loss is frustrating.
If you're running restoration angels I would try swan song. That card is bonkers good sometimes (and hard counters splinter twin around spell snare, unlike negate).
Sigarda was really good to me in the couple games I tried her out in. Any creature finisher is suspect other than her because they die to Liliana (which is probably our worst matchup--any Lily deck). Sun Titan dying to terminate is bad--sure it's a 2-for-1, but often we're dependent on resolving it and keeping it alive to pull the game out. Sometimes they can literally 3-for-1 themselves to kill Titan (I've seen it get double-bolted) and still win.
Reveillark is actually a really good idea, since it rates to get us back almost anything in the value deck. Downside is very weak to graveyard hate, which is already really strong against us with finks/voice (esp. RIP! ugh).
I tried Little Elspeth too, and she was remarkably strong. Cheap too, just out of abrupt decay range. Tossing the Knight over blockers, or making tokens, etc.
I think we want to stay at 4-5 mana, not 6--6 is attainable for courser decks I think, but not something you want to plan on with 23/4-6 dorks.
Say you curve Hierarch, coralhelm, into hangarback for 1+voice or something, turn 4 play a fetchland, activate hangarback, untap, activate, untap, activate. And you can wait and do it in response to removal etc.
Is that too durdly? It seems like a pretty good interaction to me.
If you happen to combo out, you can make an enormous walker by doubling up on fetchland activations and be left with a 12/12 hangarback walker if your Knight somehow dies or whatever.
If you just do hangarback, you pretty much force a removal spell and a 2-for-1 if you have Coralhelm out.
Hilarious: Knight can fetch academy ruins for academy ruins loop with hangarback
Just got done with a little playtesting. Deck is totally sound. Hangarback is sick. Academy ruins/EE loop as an option is nuts. Recurring Hangarback is nuts.
Hangarback sounds good, obviously plays nice with coralhelm and ruins as youve pointed out. Sounds like its going to be a great card in the jund matchup. I see it as an incrimental wurmcoil, comes down earlier leave bodies behind. Almost Wurmcoil Lite. Has the same weakness though and thats path to exile. Would not be good to invest a bunch of turns tapping to have it end up getting pathed.
But ya i like the idea, seems awsome in matchup that isnt going to path it. And for those cases a card ive been looking at is perilous research. Could instant speed sacrifice it in response which will not only draw you 2 cards but get you your thopters, all for the low low price of 2 mana.
Say you curve Hierarch, coralhelm, into hangarback for 1+voice or something, turn 4 play a fetchland, activate hangarback, untap, activate, untap, activate. And you can wait and do it in response to removal etc.
Is that too durdly? It seems like a pretty good interaction to me.
If you happen to combo out, you can make an enormous walker by doubling up on fetchland activations and be left with a 12/12 hangarback walker if your Knight somehow dies or whatever.
If you just do hangarback, you pretty much force a removal spell and a 2-for-1 if you have Coralhelm out.
Hilarious: Knight can fetch academy ruins for academy ruins loop with hangarback
This deck is IMBA. But I feel like a relic of progenitus or rip would mess a little bit the deck.
So I was thinking about that pretty hard when I designed the SB.
1) Dromoka's command and lots of spell snares give us outs if decks are likely to be playing RIP (which almost no one seems to be anymore since white is kinda underrepresented lately)
2) Relic doesn't totally bone us since it can't do anything about Hangarback or Voice, and Goyf recovers from it pretty fast if they hit it. The opportunity cost of Ruins is pretty low really. Hangarback gives us the opportunity to make a 10/10 hangarback walker as an alternative out if KOTR's going to get shrunk by a relic too.
It's possible we need a couple Qasali Pridemages in the 99 to force the issue on stuff like Relic, but that's why it's a draft.
If anyone likes this angle please give it a shot and let me know what you think needs changing. I don't think the numbers are right yet.
I also suspect Sejiri Steppe needs to come back in, or be in the SB, but it just feels like I don't have a lot of room and Academy Ruins is just too good. Even just with Hangarback.
The story I told myself is that Academy Ruins/Spellskite is close enough.
Just a side note: Goyf and Hangarback are just ridiculous together. Goyf is a 5/6 with instant/sorcery/hangarback/land.
I really dont know how to navigate through that deck. If you dont draw a Knight (or cannot protect it), what are you hoping to drive the creation of a larger Hangerback?
Since I never played with Hangarback I'll ask you: how does Hangar perform without Retreat? Affinity can boost Hangar with Ravager but is the card useful without any boosting?
It grows silently for not much mana investment and if they kill it it makes a gigantic goyf. Dromoka's can grow it and also turn it in to thopters by crashing it into things, which has been pretty good.
I've still got a lot of testing to do but so far it feels pretty good. Courser and Noble can let you straight up cast a bigger hangarback if you topdeck it late, which is nice.
I really dont know how to navigate through that deck. If you dont draw a Knight (or cannot protect it), what are you hoping to drive the creation of a larger Hangerback?
With Retreat, it's stupid, since you can repeatedly activate it with retreat untaps.
...and some days you run into some clown with mainboard anger of the gods haha. xmage sucks.
Couple quick game reports:
-lost 1-2 to Scapeshift from a variety of misplays, I think I woulda h ad it if I hadn't cast Retreat too early instead of holding stubborn denial up. Scapeshift is hard--may warrant some hate if it actually is a thing again.
-beat nacatl burn 2-0 in a vicious drubbing. turn 3 elspeth, giant goyfs, and the firewalker from the board do the job. Courser of Kruphix is a real beating too.
Canopy Vista actually showed its awesomeness here where I was able to fetch an untapped g/w source vs. burn, which was kinda nice.
Think my deck needs another fetchable blue source though with all the blue spells (really, just need to be playing misty rainforests not wooded foothills ffs, ugh).
I really like the idea of hangerback but I just don't know. Just looking at the list, it seems like Bant is going to be much slower then the Zoo version. Any thing to show me otherwise? Think there is a way to jam Hangerback into the Zoo version?
My gut would say in the zoo version they're trying to close out the game ASAP, and they also never hit as high of a land drop count so it's going to be harder to A) play a large late game walker and B) spend turns tapping go grow him when you want to be the aggressor. A more midrange bant shell like pokken and myself are playing around with tries to stall the game out more with more interactions which theoretically would give more time for hangarback to actually be an advantage
On the finisher topic, Sigarda indeed is a beast, but its worth noting that Ojutai synergizes nicely with retreat to coralhelm, keeping it hexproof'ed with a fetchland open. And granting CA. Not sure if it outweighs the massive relevance of Sigarda against Lili decks tho.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
My gut would say in the zoo version they're trying to close out the game ASAP, and they also never hit as high of a land drop count so it's going to be harder to A) play a large late game walker and B) spend turns tapping go grow him when you want to be the aggressor. A more midrange bant shell like pokken and myself are playing around with tries to stall the game out more with more interactions which theoretically would give more time for hangarback to actually be an advantage
So, if you think of hangarback as 2 fogs for 2 mana and 1 card being its absolute worst case in almost any matchup, it's still pretty good. It's very strong against Liliana, in particular, which is the thing that beat me the most out of Jund.
But then think about how good lingering souls is with gavony township. If you get a hangarback to 3, dromoka's it to trade with something, pop out 4 thopters and then gavony them, that's the game. The card just randomly wins sometimes, and at its worst it's draws you a virtual card for 2 mana -- it's not as good as lingering souls at 2, but it can be better, since it can be recurred with ruins too
You're right that Zoo isn't going to hit enough lands for hangarback to synergize with Coralhelm and it's probably too slow for that list. But I'll maintain that coralhelm is too slow for that list too hehe. Doesn't really belong.
On the finisher topic, Sigarda indeed is a beast, but its worth noting that Ojutai synergizes nicely with retreat to coralhelm, keeping it hexproof'ed with a fetchland open. And granting CA. Not sure if it outweighs the massive relevance of Sigarda against Lili decks tho.
I do like Ojutai also for Knight being able to search up Minamo for him. I'm not 100% sure but I might try it both ways if hangarbacks don't get there So far I think they will.
I'm not sure if it's been explored yet, but what about taking a CoCo knight deck and added Retreat to it? Then you can have the plan of beatdown with indestructible knights as well as the reliquary retreat pseudo-combo.
I'm not sure if it's been explored yet, but what about taking a CoCo knight deck and added Retreat to it? Then you can have the plan of beatdown with indestructible knights as well as the reliquary retreat pseudo-combo.
we're all open to seeing new lists at this point, if you've got a list fell free to post it see if it sparks anything. I can't comment at this point as I have no idea what a knight list would look like.
@Pokken, not saying it should be included and at 4 copies I don't know if you need any more but since you've been exploring the hangarbacks I thought I'd mention if you didn't already know that trinket Mage is able to find hangar backs. Most likely too slow to need to add that to the deck but it's interesting none the less
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UU is very taxing on the manabase when we also want GW and WW/GG.
I think it is critical that if we use U based disruption it be single pip. Stubborn denial, spell pierce or swan song feel right to me. Negate feels potentially good, but the tempo loss is frustrating.
If you're running restoration angels I would try swan song. That card is bonkers good sometimes (and hard counters splinter twin around spell snare, unlike negate).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I think people are calling it Knightfall, personally I like Reliquary Retreat, but what can ya do.
Edit: Pokken I went back to some U spells and sleeved up a single Swan Song for fun, haven't drawn it yet though.
I am trying to find a good 5/6 cmc spell that can seal up the game, but no luck so far.
Spirits
Gideon Jura
Dragonlord Ojutai
Elspeth, Sun's champion
Sun titan
Reveillark
they're all pretty good at creating an insurmountable advantage if they stick around a turn or two
Reveillark is actually a really good idea, since it rates to get us back almost anything in the value deck. Downside is very weak to graveyard hate, which is already really strong against us with finks/voice (esp. RIP! ugh).
I tried Little Elspeth too, and she was remarkably strong. Cheap too, just out of abrupt decay range. Tossing the Knight over blockers, or making tokens, etc.
I think we want to stay at 4-5 mana, not 6--6 is attainable for courser decks I think, but not something you want to plan on with 23/4-6 dorks.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Hangarback Walker
Say you curve Hierarch, coralhelm, into hangarback for 1+voice or something, turn 4 play a fetchland, activate hangarback, untap, activate, untap, activate. And you can wait and do it in response to removal etc.
Is that too durdly? It seems like a pretty good interaction to me.
If you happen to combo out, you can make an enormous walker by doubling up on fetchland activations and be left with a 12/12 hangarback walker if your Knight somehow dies or whatever.
If you just do hangarback, you pretty much force a removal spell and a 2-for-1 if you have Coralhelm out.
Hilarious: Knight can fetch academy ruins for academy ruins loop with hangarback
Hangin' in Coralhelm
1 Breeding Pool
1 Canopy Vista
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Island
2 Plains
1 Rogue's Passage
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Courser of Kruphix
4 Hangarback Walker
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Spellskite
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Voice of Resurgence
Spells
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Stubborn Denial
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dromoka's Command
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Life from the Loam
1 Negate
3 Spell Snare
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Retreat to Coralhelm doubles to create tons of mana early with the arbor elf/voyaging satyr + utopia sprawl/overgrowth combo. Primal Command fetches KotR, and locks the opponent off mana with Eternal Witness. Acidic Slime is the other land destruction angle and adds devotion with Nyktos. Knight fetches Nyktos, and Kessig Wolf run as an alternate win con. Garruk Wildspeaker ramps, and provides another win con.
support cards are:
beast within
Harmonize
and we were talking about the Tooth and Nail combo....
has potential.
So many times, I've got people leaving blockers thinking they will chump (or obliterate with something better!) my Knight, and in she goes for lethal.
Spirits
Pretty sure this is the right track.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
But ya i like the idea, seems awsome in matchup that isnt going to path it. And for those cases a card ive been looking at is perilous research. Could instant speed sacrifice it in response which will not only draw you 2 cards but get you your thopters, all for the low low price of 2 mana.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
This deck is IMBA. But I feel like a relic of progenitus or rip would mess a little bit the deck.
So I was thinking about that pretty hard when I designed the SB.
1) Dromoka's command and lots of spell snares give us outs if decks are likely to be playing RIP (which almost no one seems to be anymore since white is kinda underrepresented lately)
2) Relic doesn't totally bone us since it can't do anything about Hangarback or Voice, and Goyf recovers from it pretty fast if they hit it. The opportunity cost of Ruins is pretty low really. Hangarback gives us the opportunity to make a 10/10 hangarback walker as an alternative out if KOTR's going to get shrunk by a relic too.
It's possible we need a couple Qasali Pridemages in the 99 to force the issue on stuff like Relic, but that's why it's a draft.
If anyone likes this angle please give it a shot and let me know what you think needs changing. I don't think the numbers are right yet.
I also suspect Sejiri Steppe needs to come back in, or be in the SB, but it just feels like I don't have a lot of room and Academy Ruins is just too good. Even just with Hangarback.
The story I told myself is that Academy Ruins/Spellskite is close enough.
Just a side note: Goyf and Hangarback are just ridiculous together. Goyf is a 5/6 with instant/sorcery/hangarback/land.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Spirits
It grows silently for not much mana investment and if they kill it it makes a gigantic goyf. Dromoka's can grow it and also turn it in to thopters by crashing it into things, which has been pretty good.
I've still got a lot of testing to do but so far it feels pretty good. Courser and Noble can let you straight up cast a bigger hangarback if you topdeck it late, which is nice.
With Retreat, it's stupid, since you can repeatedly activate it with retreat untaps.
...and some days you run into some clown with mainboard anger of the gods haha. xmage sucks.
Couple quick game reports:
-lost 1-2 to Scapeshift from a variety of misplays, I think I woulda h ad it if I hadn't cast Retreat too early instead of holding stubborn denial up. Scapeshift is hard--may warrant some hate if it actually is a thing again.
-beat nacatl burn 2-0 in a vicious drubbing. turn 3 elspeth, giant goyfs, and the firewalker from the board do the job. Courser of Kruphix is a real beating too.
Canopy Vista actually showed its awesomeness here where I was able to fetch an untapped g/w source vs. burn, which was kinda nice.
Think my deck needs another fetchable blue source though with all the blue spells (really, just need to be playing misty rainforests not wooded foothills ffs, ugh).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
So, if you think of hangarback as 2 fogs for 2 mana and 1 card being its absolute worst case in almost any matchup, it's still pretty good. It's very strong against Liliana, in particular, which is the thing that beat me the most out of Jund.
But then think about how good lingering souls is with gavony township. If you get a hangarback to 3, dromoka's it to trade with something, pop out 4 thopters and then gavony them, that's the game. The card just randomly wins sometimes, and at its worst it's draws you a virtual card for 2 mana -- it's not as good as lingering souls at 2, but it can be better, since it can be recurred with ruins too
You're right that Zoo isn't going to hit enough lands for hangarback to synergize with Coralhelm and it's probably too slow for that list. But I'll maintain that coralhelm is too slow for that list too hehe. Doesn't really belong.
I do like Ojutai also for Knight being able to search up Minamo for him. I'm not 100% sure but I might try it both ways if hangarbacks don't get there So far I think they will.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG
@Pokken, not saying it should be included and at 4 copies I don't know if you need any more but since you've been exploring the hangarbacks I thought I'd mention if you didn't already know that trinket Mage is able to find hangar backs. Most likely too slow to need to add that to the deck but it's interesting none the less