Disruption in the form of removal is pivotal in modern: often decks can win as early as turn 3 or 4. Decks which can K.O. you on turn 4 are diverse and popular.
Even if your deck is just as fast, being on the play or draw will dictate who gets there first: being on the play means you always see turn 3 first! Removal, therefore, is at worst a hedge against loosing the roll to play/draw g1 when playing equally fast opponents, and at best insurance against decks that are simply faster on average than your own.
Only seriously explosive decks can get away without removal. Like turn 2/3 explosive (hello infect/amulet bloom).
The likelihood of comboing out turn 3 isn't stellar for this deck, and turn 4 isn't exactly a whole lot better. This deck will probably expect to threaten a win consistently on turn 5 without interaction.
I don't think there will be any support for the position of playing zero path to exile in your 60.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
1) 22 is what most abzan company decks that curve off at 4 run and they only run 4 birds. Average CMC is very comparable (2.45 vs 2.55).
2) Which problem critters do you see? I can only really think of Bob. Not worried about opposing fatties like Goyf's/Gurmags cause you just hit them back harder. If they are stalling for blockers then that's what exalted is for.
Not to be hating on your entire post but I highly disagree with Harbinger of Tides. A 4 mana interaction answer to twin (be it unreliably with CoCo or flashing in directing with 2UU) is not going to work especially when you consider they can just tap a land down or if you're at the stage to have 4 open mana, they probably have a remand/dispel ready as well.
Abzan runs chord as a method of cheating at mana costs, and also runs additional 1-drops and aims to never cast their 4 drops (just cheat them out by tapping dudes with chord). Many lists run Wall of Roots who counts as 2 a lot of times (due to chord shenanigans). Unlike them, you are periodically going to want to cast multiple 3-drops in a turn to try to win mid-game as well. I think 23 is probably the right number without Chord factoring in, but just my opinion grain of salt, etc.
I feel like you're going to get your bird bolted and stall on mana often enough that you'll regret not being as reliable at getting to 3.
Problem critters are twin guys and wurmcoil engines just to name a couple, but also the combo pieces in Elves and Abzan coco are relevant. You're going to lose a lot of G1's by not being able to interact. Fatties bigger than yours are also potentially a problem, and being able to remove an Angler for 1 mana will often win you games you wouldn't have won running out a war monk. But play it out and see how you feel I guess
KOTR combo is not going to be a linear deck the way you've designed it, you're a beatdown deck that can combo out randomly. Your combo rate because of so few ways to see more cards is going to be very low, maybe 20% or so by turn 4 with no interaction.
I agree that Harbinger is questionable, but I bring him up to nudge the conversation toward getting value out of your creatures. right now you've got a bunch of dumb beaters and no way to interact, and this deck needs to interact (contrary to what folks are saying subsequently:).
I have dromoka's command and I disagree with running disruption for the sole purpose of disruption, especially game 1 in a linear deck.
It's the main reason I don't run mainboard paths in elves company or abrupt decays in abzan company. IMO, If your deck is linear, the only cards you should have game 1 are cards that work towards the goal or cards that protect the goal (eg. collected company/chord for abzan company and force of will for ad nauseum).
Running disruption for the sake of it will dilute your focused gameplan unless you can attack from numerous angles like BGx decks.
Having said that, if you feel disruption is necessary to promote your gameplan then you should be thinking what are you exactly disrupting vs which decks and how relevant (and prevalent) are those threats.
I can't think of a good reason to run path vs a majority of decks when our gameplan is to beatdown or incidental combo (unless it's a bob like I mentioned previously). I don't care nearly enough about random bgx creatures like olivia, scooze, huntmaster, etc or grixis gurmags or any other stupid beater.
Please feel free to disagree but explain it logically.
(On a side note, I agree with Rhox moving to board but I do not know of a more efficient beater - I was actually considering Knight of Glory)
So let's talk about some of this--
I play elves too. Elves has way more velocity than this deck. canopies, elvish visionaries, chord and coco result in a deck that has a much stronger linear gameplan than you do. Even they run maindeck disruption but they do it in the form of Chords and creatures like spellskite, reclamation sage, scooze, etc. You'll find they run twice as much maindeck disruption as you just by virtue of the 5x of 5 different types of interaction with Chord...and the ability to hit those cards on Coco if needed.
So your deck's linear gameplan by virtue of not having any velocity to speak of (no serum visions, no remands, no electrolyzes like Twin, no visionary/chord like elves)--your only way to dig is coco and it digs to half of the combo only. You do not have the equipment to try to combo out like twin, so you need to primarily beat down and if you're primarily beating down you need some interaction to deal with better linear decks.
Maindecking 4 paths gives you top notch disruption vs a huge variety of decks, not the least of which are infect and twin (which will both kill you faster than you kill them).
22 lands is fine as long as you have 6 manadorks. The problem is that there are 15 3-drops and without a dork turn 2 (54% chance of one in the opener) and no disruption, you are going to have a pretty clunky hand. Move the Rhox War Monk to the side, cut a Geist of Saint Traft since you only want 2 with Collected Company, and add in some Path to Exiles since there is 0 disruption in the deck right now.
I think what you've said is the same I did, though more eloquently 22 lands with 6 dorks CAN be enough if your curve is right to support it. Can't just average the mana costs, have to look at the curve.
It's also important to do the thought exercise: What if they bolt my turn 1 dork? Which as you pointed out (by imagining dorkless hands) is probably "I get frigging annihilated."
Elves do not run mainboard disruption, look at both OKC GP decks (4th and 12th place). There is only 1 spellskite visible and that is more for protection than disruption.
Once again, just to be clear - I understand the concept of disruption but I feel like there is definitely a place and time for it. For this bant company deck, I feel we are fine vs each matchup game 1 without path.
The only deck I'd care to disrupt would be Tron but even then path does nothing there. If someone would like to present a case by case basis for path against each Tier 1 deck then please do so as I feel between exalted beats + qasali + dromokas, I have enough. I am a fan of disruption that also fuels/protects your game plan like Vines to Vastwood and Spellskite but unfortunately Skite doesn't further our beatdown plan.
Edit 1: Bolting a dork just means you play a voice next turn? Same as Abzan company...it's not "I got friggin annihilated". Nor is T1 IoK/Thoughtseize, deck has so much redundancy. My local meta is filled with Jund + Grixis Variants + Scapeshift and being T1 bolted is nowhere near game-ending so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. You can't just come up with the ideal situation for the opponent and give yourself a hand of 3 companies 4 lands.
Edit 2: either way I'm not here to persuade but rather fuel discussion. At the end of the day, we will all be running our own variants at FNM or larger events but until there is a big tournament win, nothing is really concrete and even then...
I suggest trying out everything extensively and objectively before reaching a conclusion.
Elves do not run mainboard disruption, look at both OKC GP decks (4th and 12th place). There is only 1 spellskite visible and that is more for protection than disruption.
Once again, I understand the concept of disruption but I feel like there is definitely a place and time for it. For this bant company deck, I feel we are fine vs each matchup game 1 without path.
The only deck I'd care to disrupt would be Tron but even then path does nothing there. If someone would like to present a case by case basis for path against each Tier 1 deck then please do so as I feel between exalted beats + qasali + dromokas, I have enough. I am a fan of disruption that also fuels/protects your game plan like Spellskite but unfortunately Skite doesn't further our beatdown plan.
One mainboard skite is 5 skites with chord, more disruption than you (I also run rec sage in my version, and previously have run scooze and hushwing gryff mb).
If it is your contention that your deck is so strong and resilient that you don't have to be the control deck g1 I think you are wrong. Your creatures just lose to a lot of much faster decks you cannot race (Infect, Twin, Merfolk and Elves).
Re: pridemage. Pridemage is way worse than people think vs Twin. If you cast it on turn 3 with a mana open, they tap your land with exarch and combo off, or Exarch untap a mountain and bolt it. It's not a reliable out to Twin. It's OK vs. Affinity but that is it.
Edit 1: Bolting a dork just means you play a voice next turn? Same as Abzan company...it's not "I got friggin annihilated". Nor is T1 IoK/Thoughtseize, deck has so much redundancy. My local meta is filled with Jund + Grixis Variants + Scapeshift and being T1 bolted is nowhere near game-ending so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. You can't just come up with the ideal situation for the opponent and give yourself a hand of 3 companies 4 lands.
Because your creatures generate a lot less value than Abzan Coco's (no finks, no anafenza, no Liliana, no witness, no fiend hunter, no viscera seer, etc.) you are going to be a lot more fragile without being able to drop your bombs, and without chord your combo will be slower.
Yes, I've been testing it daily on paper for around 4-5 hrs at my LGS (using proxy Coralhelms) against all Tier 1 except Tron. I provided a report earlier on.
I absolutely agree with your take on Qasali pridemage vs Twin but I probably wouldn't be replacing one for the other anyways, Dromoka's command would be the first to go. I disagree with your feeling that Skite is there as mainboard disruption for elves, and even then it only appears once in the 12th placed list, not the 4th placed one.
For conversation about path, it should be more about removal (specifically creature removal) than disruption anyways.
Well, using that as a jumping point seems good. All we need to do is make room for Coralhelm and tighten up the mana base. My first changes to the main would probably be...
Out
2x Stiring Wildwood, 2x Elspeth, 1x Lightning Helix
In
1x Island, 1x Mountain, 3x Retreat to Coralhelm
...Stiring wildwood is an unsacable tapland that we don't really want. I doubt bringing in Basics is correct, but there is always some appeal to not (completely) dying to blood moon. Elspeth serves the same function (Finishing Games) as Retreat does for us. Lightning Helix gets cut to make room for the third Retreat and because its the least efficient/versatile answer in the shell. Sideboard needs to be figured out, but here is another quick shot at Knightfall...
Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
Elves do not run mainboard disruption, look at both OKC GP decks (4th and 12th place). There is only 1 spellskite visible and that is more for protection than disruption.
Once again, just to be clear - I understand the concept of disruption but I feel like there is definitely a place and time for it. For this bant company deck, I feel we are fine vs each matchup game 1 without path.
The only deck I'd care to disrupt would be Tron but even then path does nothing there. If someone would like to present a case by case basis for path against each Tier 1 deck then please do so as I feel between exalted beats + qasali + dromokas, I have enough. I am a fan of disruption that also fuels/protects your game plan like Vines to Vastwood and Spellskite but unfortunately Skite doesn't further our beatdown plan.
Edit 1: Bolting a dork just means you play a voice next turn? Same as Abzan company...it's not "I got friggin annihilated". Nor is T1 IoK/Thoughtseize, deck has so much redundancy. My local meta is filled with Jund + Grixis Variants + Scapeshift and being T1 bolted is nowhere near game-ending so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. You can't just come up with the ideal situation for the opponent and give yourself a hand of 3 companies 4 lands.
Edit 2: either way I'm not here to persuade but rather fuel discussion. At the end of the day, we will all be running our own variants at FNM or larger events but until there is a big tournament win, nothing is really concrete and even then...
I suggest trying out everything extensively and objectively before reaching a conclusion.
I used to run a bant company deck similar to yours and I found just running 4 paths to be no where near enough interaction. I was constantly losing to twin and was desperately mulliganing to find my paths. When the deck worked it beat down hard but against combo it folded A LOT and that was with 4 paths mainboard. Dromoka's command is a good card but it is often near dead against jund/junk where your dudes are getting removed constantly. It's a great card when you're ahead but when you have an empty board it simply rots in your hand. Not only is path catch all removal it's flexible, it can target your dork to get a landfall trigger to protect your knight mid combo as well as self ramping when you're in a bind and need to cast a company. I honestly am shocked that you've had positive experiences in your meta with little mainboard disruption as I (and I suspect many people here) have had incredibly negative experiences. Even ignoring our personal experiences it has objectively been reached by dozens if not hundreds of pro level players that most successful decks in modern that aren't incredibly linear explosive strategies need interaction to survive. Look at any top 8 and you'll see this played out over and over again...this is something that has been extensively and objectively investigated by players of the game for years.
Yeah, this deck is not nearly explosive enough to leave out disruption, a very large portion of the meta is better at solitiare than this, and the decks with both threats and interaction (such as Abzan and Twin) will also beat you. I like more interactive decks (there is nothing I hate more than knowing I can't stop someone who is about to get their combo), so I'm dropping CoCo and running counters in addition to the Paths. This makes a slower deck, but it seems to be better against Twin because it can play more threats than their removal (or just land a GoST) while making it harder for them to go off, and the slower deck gets more use out of Chord+sideboard options (Bant has an AMAZING selection of sb targets for Chord).
Just to weigh in on Path (not that it should need any defending, frankly) - in this particular deck, apart from being Modern's ubiquitous removal, if you don't have the good fortune to have an uncracked fetch on the table, Path can and does protect your tapped KotR. I'm sure many of you have pathed one of your own critters to pull out a forest/plains, untap knight, grab a steppe. I'd feel naked without Paths.
I think one thing we are forgetting here is that we literally have the Birthing Pod land deck at our fingertips. With a Crucible of Worlds we can create a toolbox deck for nabbing utility lands. Yes, we don't have The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale or Stripmine, but we do have the full potential of a Modern utility land deck. We have the landkill, the disruption, and the removal to make this work. Instead of making Knight huge, what if we focused on creating a versatile catch-all machine instead? Yes, Knight will get huge and eventually be our wincon, but we have the potential here.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
i think we should not get too fancy right now. this deck is not going to do well if we are playing an infinite amount of 3 drops. over the last pages i read about Knight (1), Coralhelm (2), Geist (3), Courser (4) and now even Crucible (5). all of them cost 3 mana and will not fit in the same deck ever. i do not believe that any strategy playing Courser or Crucible is going to be successful when the other options are probably better (geist) or belong to the combo (Knight, Coralhelm)
i think we should not get too fancy right now. this deck is not going to do well if we are playing an infinite amount of 3 drops. over the last pages i read about Knight (1), Coralhelm (2), Geist (3), Courser (4) and now even Crucible (5). all of them cost 3 mana and will not fit in the same deck ever. i do not believe that any strategy playing Courser or Crucible is going to be successful when the other options are probably better (geist) or belong to the combo (Knight, Coralhelm)
I think you are correct. Courser and Crucible have no place in the main. Crucible doesn't seem useful to me ever. the lands in Modern just aren't that utilize-able. Courser seems like it deserves a spot in the sideboard for the matchups that make Geist bad, or the games when you have to be the control deck.
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Every time I read a comment about "Well if this card had card draw/trample/haste/indestructible/hexproof/life gain...", I think "You're missing the point." They're armchair developer comments that fail to take into account the card's role in the greater Limited and Standard environment. No, it may not be as good as whatever card you're comparing it to. There's a reason for that. Not every burn spell is Lightning Bolt, nor does it need to be or should be.
- Manite
i think we should not get too fancy right now. this deck is not going to do well if we are playing an infinite amount of 3 drops. over the last pages i read about Knight (1), Coralhelm (2), Geist (3), Courser (4) and now even Crucible (5). all of them cost 3 mana and will not fit in the same deck ever. i do not believe that any strategy playing Courser or Crucible is going to be successful when the other options are probably better (geist) or belong to the combo (Knight, Coralhelm)
I think you are correct. Courser and Crucible have no place in the main. Crucible doesn't seem useful to me ever. the lands in Modern just aren't that utilize-able. Courser seems like it deserves a spot in the sideboard for the matchups that make Geist bad, or the games when you have to be the control deck.
My idea was not to make this all one deck. The synergies present here could worl in multiple variationa of the deck, like how Burn has mono-red, Naya, Jund, and even Mardu every now and than. True, no deck needs a horde of 3 drops. But we have the room to experiment.
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"Don't believe everything you read on the internet." - Abraham Lincoln
i think we should not get too fancy right now. this deck is not going to do well if we are playing an infinite amount of 3 drops. over the last pages i read about Knight (1), Coralhelm (2), Geist (3), Courser (4) and now even Crucible (5). all of them cost 3 mana and will not fit in the same deck ever. i do not believe that any strategy playing Courser or Crucible is going to be successful when the other options are probably better (geist) or belong to the combo (Knight, Coralhelm)
I think you are correct. Courser and Crucible have no place in the main. Crucible doesn't seem useful to me ever. the lands in Modern just aren't that utilize-able. Courser seems like it deserves a spot in the sideboard for the matchups that make Geist bad, or the games when you have to be the control deck.
Quoting both. Crucible and Courser are great cards but only average in our plan, far away from the sinergy the three other 3CMC give to this deck.
I think one thing we are forgetting here is that we literally have the Birthing Pod land deck at our fingertips. With a Crucible of Worlds we can create a toolbox deck for nabbing utility lands. Yes, we don't have The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale or Stripmine, but we do have the full potential of a Modern utility land deck. We have the landkill, the disruption, and the removal to make this work. Instead of making Knight huge, what if we focused on creating a versatile catch-all machine instead? Yes, Knight will get huge and eventually be our wincon, but we have the potential here.
The main problem here is that the lands combo is nowhere near a playable deck before BFZ. A single non-searchable card that allows you to combo off does not increase your combo chance by enough to change that. The deck itself is also pretty easy to stop because it relies on sorcery-speed pieces that die to Decay. The advantage of the midrange/beatdown version is that it is much closer to being competitive already, and makes it difficult for the opponent to sit back and hold up interaction. This deck gets to take advantage of the fact that one of its combo pieces is actually a playable card, and the other isn't terrible (Retreat is better on its own than Splinter Twin without a target for example)
I really think we need two different threads, one about the more all-in-combo versions (whether they include additional combos or add tutors) and one for the beatdown-with-incidental-wincon version.
Courser is not playable if you plan on winning via combo.
We are allowed to create a shortcut when looping through our combo as long as the opponent has no interaction (If they say they have interaction but do not or ask for shuffling regardless that can be ruled as stalling and can result in a DQ, ask your judge if they insist on shuffling) or there is no information gained with each shuffle. Courser reveals the top card of our library which means that each shuffle will result in a different card on top, which mandates that we must shuffle for each loop, possibly putting us in danger of going to time.
Of course you can run it if you're going to board the combo out when courser comes in, but otherwise it's likely too dangerous.
If you activate Knight 5 times with courser out you're probably gonna win, And it ensures you hit your land drop every turn. So you're probably better off grabbing a few lands and going to town with a 10/10 knight for a two-turn kill with courser.
The thing Courser and Geist do is bring a ton more synergy to coralhelm, so your "combo" becomes more like 9 pieces + coralhelm, and all good cards.
The midrange version of the deck is almost surely going to want 2-3 coursers IMHO, despite the dissynergy with comboing off in person.
That said, I have been testing a tempoish variant similar to Twin with stubborn denial, goyf, glen elendra and dromoka's command and it feels pretty promising so far. You can assemble a whole lot of value with snapcasters/dromokas/glen elendra, enough to win attrition games, while jamming through a lot of damage with goyf and knight potentially comboing out. The clock is much faster than Twin without combo as well, which is nice.
Edit: Also, if you've ever had coralhelm out with courser without Knight, you'll know how hard that level of advantage is to defeat with the threat/answer quality in our deck. You hit quality cards and land drops every turn almost invariaby -- the repeated scries and lifegain are huge.
Even if your deck is just as fast, being on the play or draw will dictate who gets there first: being on the play means you always see turn 3 first! Removal, therefore, is at worst a hedge against loosing the roll to play/draw g1 when playing equally fast opponents, and at best insurance against decks that are simply faster on average than your own.
Only seriously explosive decks can get away without removal. Like turn 2/3 explosive (hello infect/amulet bloom).
The likelihood of comboing out turn 3 isn't stellar for this deck, and turn 4 isn't exactly a whole lot better. This deck will probably expect to threaten a win consistently on turn 5 without interaction.
I don't think there will be any support for the position of playing zero path to exile in your 60.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Abzan runs chord as a method of cheating at mana costs, and also runs additional 1-drops and aims to never cast their 4 drops (just cheat them out by tapping dudes with chord). Many lists run Wall of Roots who counts as 2 a lot of times (due to chord shenanigans). Unlike them, you are periodically going to want to cast multiple 3-drops in a turn to try to win mid-game as well. I think 23 is probably the right number without Chord factoring in, but just my opinion grain of salt, etc.
I feel like you're going to get your bird bolted and stall on mana often enough that you'll regret not being as reliable at getting to 3.
Problem critters are twin guys and wurmcoil engines just to name a couple, but also the combo pieces in Elves and Abzan coco are relevant. You're going to lose a lot of G1's by not being able to interact. Fatties bigger than yours are also potentially a problem, and being able to remove an Angler for 1 mana will often win you games you wouldn't have won running out a war monk. But play it out and see how you feel I guess
KOTR combo is not going to be a linear deck the way you've designed it, you're a beatdown deck that can combo out randomly. Your combo rate because of so few ways to see more cards is going to be very low, maybe 20% or so by turn 4 with no interaction.
I agree that Harbinger is questionable, but I bring him up to nudge the conversation toward getting value out of your creatures. right now you've got a bunch of dumb beaters and no way to interact, and this deck needs to interact (contrary to what folks are saying subsequently:).
So let's talk about some of this--
I play elves too. Elves has way more velocity than this deck. canopies, elvish visionaries, chord and coco result in a deck that has a much stronger linear gameplan than you do. Even they run maindeck disruption but they do it in the form of Chords and creatures like spellskite, reclamation sage, scooze, etc. You'll find they run twice as much maindeck disruption as you just by virtue of the 5x of 5 different types of interaction with Chord...and the ability to hit those cards on Coco if needed.
So your deck's linear gameplan by virtue of not having any velocity to speak of (no serum visions, no remands, no electrolyzes like Twin, no visionary/chord like elves)--your only way to dig is coco and it digs to half of the combo only. You do not have the equipment to try to combo out like twin, so you need to primarily beat down and if you're primarily beating down you need some interaction to deal with better linear decks.
Maindecking 4 paths gives you top notch disruption vs a huge variety of decks, not the least of which are infect and twin (which will both kill you faster than you kill them).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
4 Ruin Ghost
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Plated Geopede
3 Retreat to Emeria
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Path to Exile
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
A shell that might be useable
I think what you've said is the same I did, though more eloquently 22 lands with 6 dorks CAN be enough if your curve is right to support it. Can't just average the mana costs, have to look at the curve.
It's also important to do the thought exercise: What if they bolt my turn 1 dork? Which as you pointed out (by imagining dorkless hands) is probably "I get frigging annihilated."
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Once again, just to be clear - I understand the concept of disruption but I feel like there is definitely a place and time for it. For this bant company deck, I feel we are fine vs each matchup game 1 without path.
The only deck I'd care to disrupt would be Tron but even then path does nothing there. If someone would like to present a case by case basis for path against each Tier 1 deck then please do so as I feel between exalted beats + qasali + dromokas, I have enough. I am a fan of disruption that also fuels/protects your game plan like Vines to Vastwood and Spellskite but unfortunately Skite doesn't further our beatdown plan.
Edit 1: Bolting a dork just means you play a voice next turn? Same as Abzan company...it's not "I got friggin annihilated". Nor is T1 IoK/Thoughtseize, deck has so much redundancy. My local meta is filled with Jund + Grixis Variants + Scapeshift and being T1 bolted is nowhere near game-ending so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. You can't just come up with the ideal situation for the opponent and give yourself a hand of 3 companies 4 lands.
Edit 2: either way I'm not here to persuade but rather fuel discussion. At the end of the day, we will all be running our own variants at FNM or larger events but until there is a big tournament win, nothing is really concrete and even then...
I suggest trying out everything extensively and objectively before reaching a conclusion.
One mainboard skite is 5 skites with chord, more disruption than you (I also run rec sage in my version, and previously have run scooze and hushwing gryff mb).
If it is your contention that your deck is so strong and resilient that you don't have to be the control deck g1 I think you are wrong. Your creatures just lose to a lot of much faster decks you cannot race (Infect, Twin, Merfolk and Elves).
Re: pridemage. Pridemage is way worse than people think vs Twin. If you cast it on turn 3 with a mana open, they tap your land with exarch and combo off, or Exarch untap a mountain and bolt it. It's not a reliable out to Twin. It's OK vs. Affinity but that is it.
Because your creatures generate a lot less value than Abzan Coco's (no finks, no anafenza, no Liliana, no witness, no fiend hunter, no viscera seer, etc.) you are going to be a lot more fragile without being able to drop your bombs, and without chord your combo will be slower.
Have you played this deck vs. Jund or Twin yet?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I absolutely agree with your take on Qasali pridemage vs Twin but I probably wouldn't be replacing one for the other anyways, Dromoka's command would be the first to go. I disagree with your feeling that Skite is there as mainboard disruption for elves, and even then it only appears once in the 12th placed list, not the 4th placed one.
For conversation about path, it should be more about removal (specifically creature removal) than disruption anyways.
Edit: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/bant-zoo-primer/ is awesome. I love Duke's insight, especially his when/how to Thoughtseize article.
Well, using that as a jumping point seems good. All we need to do is make room for Coralhelm and tighten up the mana base. My first changes to the main would probably be...
Out
2x Stiring Wildwood, 2x Elspeth, 1x Lightning Helix
In
1x Island, 1x Mountain, 3x Retreat to Coralhelm
...Stiring wildwood is an unsacable tapland that we don't really want. I doubt bringing in Basics is correct, but there is always some appeal to not (completely) dying to blood moon. Elspeth serves the same function (Finishing Games) as Retreat does for us. Lightning Helix gets cut to make room for the third Retreat and because its the least efficient/versatile answer in the shell. Sideboard needs to be figured out, but here is another quick shot at Knightfall...
1 mountain
1 island
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Geist of Saint Traft
spells
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Bant Charm
3 retreat to coralhelm
- Manite
I used to run a bant company deck similar to yours and I found just running 4 paths to be no where near enough interaction. I was constantly losing to twin and was desperately mulliganing to find my paths. When the deck worked it beat down hard but against combo it folded A LOT and that was with 4 paths mainboard. Dromoka's command is a good card but it is often near dead against jund/junk where your dudes are getting removed constantly. It's a great card when you're ahead but when you have an empty board it simply rots in your hand. Not only is path catch all removal it's flexible, it can target your dork to get a landfall trigger to protect your knight mid combo as well as self ramping when you're in a bind and need to cast a company. I honestly am shocked that you've had positive experiences in your meta with little mainboard disruption as I (and I suspect many people here) have had incredibly negative experiences. Even ignoring our personal experiences it has objectively been reached by dozens if not hundreds of pro level players that most successful decks in modern that aren't incredibly linear explosive strategies need interaction to survive. Look at any top 8 and you'll see this played out over and over again...this is something that has been extensively and objectively investigated by players of the game for years.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
CG
I think you are correct. Courser and Crucible have no place in the main. Crucible doesn't seem useful to me ever. the lands in Modern just aren't that utilize-able. Courser seems like it deserves a spot in the sideboard for the matchups that make Geist bad, or the games when you have to be the control deck.
- Manite
Quoting both. Crucible and Courser are great cards but only average in our plan, far away from the sinergy the three other 3CMC give to this deck.
The main problem here is that the lands combo is nowhere near a playable deck before BFZ. A single non-searchable card that allows you to combo off does not increase your combo chance by enough to change that. The deck itself is also pretty easy to stop because it relies on sorcery-speed pieces that die to Decay. The advantage of the midrange/beatdown version is that it is much closer to being competitive already, and makes it difficult for the opponent to sit back and hold up interaction. This deck gets to take advantage of the fact that one of its combo pieces is actually a playable card, and the other isn't terrible (Retreat is better on its own than Splinter Twin without a target for example)
I really think we need two different threads, one about the more all-in-combo versions (whether they include additional combos or add tutors) and one for the beatdown-with-incidental-wincon version.
We are allowed to create a shortcut when looping through our combo as long as the opponent has no interaction (If they say they have interaction but do not or ask for shuffling regardless that can be ruled as stalling and can result in a DQ, ask your judge if they insist on shuffling) or there is no information gained with each shuffle. Courser reveals the top card of our library which means that each shuffle will result in a different card on top, which mandates that we must shuffle for each loop, possibly putting us in danger of going to time.
Of course you can run it if you're going to board the combo out when courser comes in, but otherwise it's likely too dangerous.
The thing Courser and Geist do is bring a ton more synergy to coralhelm, so your "combo" becomes more like 9 pieces + coralhelm, and all good cards.
The midrange version of the deck is almost surely going to want 2-3 coursers IMHO, despite the dissynergy with comboing off in person.
That said, I have been testing a tempoish variant similar to Twin with stubborn denial, goyf, glen elendra and dromoka's command and it feels pretty promising so far. You can assemble a whole lot of value with snapcasters/dromokas/glen elendra, enough to win attrition games, while jamming through a lot of damage with goyf and knight potentially comboing out. The clock is much faster than Twin without combo as well, which is nice.
Edit: Also, if you've ever had coralhelm out with courser without Knight, you'll know how hard that level of advantage is to defeat with the threat/answer quality in our deck. You hit quality cards and land drops every turn almost invariaby -- the repeated scries and lifegain are huge.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall