Xanian, i think you underestimate the shadyness of a lot of people out there. if they need a draw or are ahead 1-0 an it's close to time i can only imagine that a lot of people are going to insist on this rule
103.1 covers shuffling at the beginning of the game. 716.2 covers shortcutting. The opponent could stop the shortcut to interact, but if they have no interaction couldn't force all the shuffles.
As someone who hasn't really played a lot of zoo: What do you sideboard and against what matchups?
Cards I like:
Thalia
Magus of the moon
Stony silence
Dromoka's command?
Spellskite?
What else? My meta has a lot of grixis (Control, delver, twin) and less (But always represented) Jund, Junk, Bloom Titan, UR Twin, UWR Control, Scapeshift, Infect, Affinity
Meddling Mage is good against any kind on linear combo (for example naming Scapeshift). Kataki is nice vs affinity.
I board in thalia and moons against grixis. Choke if you still have it. G3 i board in celestial purge when i had it to kill a resolved keranos if it went there.
103.1 covers shuffling at the beginning of the game. 716.2 covers shortcutting. The opponent could stop the shortcut to interact, but if they have no interaction couldn't force all the shuffles.
The definition of "shuffle" in the Rules is referenced before a game OR during a game, and the definition then directs to Rules 103.1, which I referenced above.
The rule you mention (716.2) involves short cutting. However, Rule 716.2a defines a shortcut as something that would otherwise be a legal action. Failing to shuffle, or shuffling improperly, when you are required to shuffle is an illegal action. Therefore, you cannot use rule 716.2 while mid-combo with Knight of the Reliquary, because you are required to shuffle after each activation.
I've been holding on to Knight of the Reliquary waiting for a deck to play it in. Sadly, I'm missing most of the really expensive cards in the deck. Looking at you, Tarmogoyf.
Xanian, i think you underestimate the shadyness of a lot of people out there. if they need a draw or are ahead 1-0 an it's close to time i can only imagine that a lot of people are going to insist on this rule
Even worse will be when g1 goes long, the Retreat player finally gets combo, then shuffles every time to make the g1 kill last most of the rest of the round. Because he is technically required to shuffle, as long as he is shuffling fairly quickly I don't see how an opponent could complain of stalling, but shuffling 15+ times, even going pretty quickly, is a lot of time being spent. If this deck ends up being good, it is actually quite possible it will get banned for this reason.
On the deck itself:
I think going all-in on the combo is a bad idea. The combo is not nearly as strong as other combo options, isn't easy to search for, and doesn't have redundancy. Trying to go all-in on a sorcery-speed combo requiring 6 total mana is NOT a good plan in a format that includes Abrupt Decay. Every deck can interact with your combo, so you need to make it harder for them to be ready for it. The strength of the deck comes from the fact that KotR is a modern-playable beatdown card on its own, and Retreat, while not a playable card outside the combo, does have the ability to help dig for KotR, slow down opponents, or tap down blockers. I haven't had the chance to do much testing, so don't have an exact list, but I'm testing stuff like Goyf, Snappy, Path, counters, St Traft, Finks, Elspeth 1 (or maybe new Gideon), Hierarch, Voice of Resurgence, etc. This gives you a strong deck able to stay on the offensive and force the opponent to use their removal/counters to stay alive, preventing them from sitting back and holding up interaction for the combo.
My guess is for the context I will be playing in, people will not require shuffling in between activations. I also would not be surprised to see an edit to the shortcutting rule.
Because there's no instant speed card draw in the deck really, it's pretty irrelevant and you can always just shuffle ahead of any interaction.
The only time it might be relevant is vs. Lantern control (say they want to mill something and extract it during the combo) and you can just do it on a case by case basis.
I've been thinking of putting together a Knight Tribal deck that uses the combo. It's a somewhat more budget option (no cards above $15 or so) but still fun. Knight Exemplar provides another piece for protecting the Knight of the Reliquary.
I've been holding on to Knight of the Reliquary waiting for a deck to play it in. Sadly, I'm missing most of the really expensive cards in the deck. Looking at you, Tarmogoyf.
Fwiw, I think the best version of these decks includes Tarmogoyf, but a playable version likely exists without it. If you search for replacements, look for something that doesn't get diminished by graveyard hate if possible; might as well diversify the threat base some. Leaning more heavily on Voice and/or Geist or other options could still end up being a very competitive deck.
Xanian, i think you underestimate the shadyness of a lot of people out there. if they need a draw or are ahead 1-0 an it's close to time i can only imagine that a lot of people are going to insist on this rule
Even worse will be when g1 goes long, the Retreat player finally gets combo, then shuffles every time to make the g1 kill last most of the rest of the round. Because he is technically required to shuffle, as long as he is shuffling fairly quickly I don't see how an opponent could complain of stalling, but shuffling 15+ times, even going pretty quickly, is a lot of time being spent. If this deck ends up being good, it is actually quite possible it will get banned for this reason.
wow i had not looked at this perspective yet and i think you are right.
Xanian, i think you underestimate the shadyness of a lot of people out there. if they need a draw or are ahead 1-0 an it's close to time i can only imagine that a lot of people are going to insist on this rule
Even worse will be when g1 goes long, the Retreat player finally gets combo, then shuffles every time to make the g1 kill last most of the rest of the round. Because he is technically required to shuffle, as long as he is shuffling fairly quickly I don't see how an opponent could complain of stalling, but shuffling 15+ times, even going pretty quickly, is a lot of time being spent. If this deck ends up being good, it is actually quite possible it will get banned for this reason.
wow i had not looked at this perspective yet and i think you are right.
This was exactly my concern. I realize it's premature, but there is precedent.
I remember there being a shortcut that let you fetch multiple things without shuffling. Like if you have 2 scalding tarns out, you are allowed to announce that you are using both and can short cut it to grab both lands at once without shuffling in between as long as your opponent isn't going to respond.
This is a fun deck but i feel like when playing a deck that has the ability to just "Oops i win." i would rather stick to Twin or Company. This deck is decent, its fun, but its also Bant, requires Goyfs (not a problem for all), and is relying on the combo in order to win. I am currently 12-2 against this deck and the only way it has ever beaten me was with the combo plan. I think if it was built with that in mind this would be much more powerful.
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U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
A mix of decks i own, most with Junk, one with Jund, a couple with Twin. My only losses were when i was playing a non-teir 2 or better deck. Which makes me feel this deck belongs in the Deck Creation thread as an idea. Lots of decks in this thread are decent but this one isnt much better than existing options. All this is is a new color configuration for what multiple decks are already trying to do. Its cheap and its fun. Knight is a good card that i am glad went from 5 to 15 dollars. I picked up a set of original Foils and MM non-foils a week ago. I just dont think is this the new hot deck everyone is saying it is.
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WEll sure... Jund is and always been, a bad matchup for zoo. Saying you won ten games with jund, doesnt suprise me. Its the same as saying "well jund is terrible. Ive won a couple games with delver, and the rest with tron. Probably a bad deck then."
Zoo naturally beats up blue decks. Last gp there were 5 zoos in the top 32, and 2 twin, 1 jund. I wouldn't be quick to dismiss it with a single matchup and about 12 games.
I've play about 50 matches, most different random decks, and I'm certainly at a 75 win %. I'm not screaming the deck is OP because in my videos Ive openly said "I'm a better player than most, Im using a deck people dont exactly understand, and Im a very small sample size.
I'm undefeated against Grixis control with my midrange version of the deck, fwiw (3-0, with no difficulties) so I'm thinking the midrange build is probably really strong against midrangey decks. But I run a lot more incremental advantage (courser, voice, eternal witness) than the zooey version.
Baloths or Smiters in the board would do a lot of work v. Jund if that's really that rough, but Jund has a pretty hard time against geist+birds in a lot of situations too.
Luckily we have a stunning rules asking section here in magic rulings sub. Someone beat me to the punch there, but they pointed out this you CAN:
A) show the short cut once, and say you intend to do it a X amount of times, and name your triggers each time. You can tell them they either accept the short cut (and if they want a judge can be there) and they can interrupt it if they feel like it, or state a time they would interrupt it. At this point the opponent can say shuffle is a mandatory effect, and they want you to shuffle each time. That brings you to:
B) Call a judge. Under a judges supervision you can say "I have this short cut, he doesnt want me to do it. What is your ruling. If you rule in favor of the shuffle, Id like you to stay here and insure this doesnt go to time, or that stalling happens.
I have no problems with having to go to option B, because anyone who is forcing you to not short cut, is trying to stall you. Thats cheating.
Edit: also, turns out if a lantern is in play, this wont allow you to short cut, because of the reveal would change each time. Thattttttsss a strike against having Corsair of Krophix!
Meddling Mage is good against any kind on linear combo (for example naming Scapeshift). Kataki is nice vs affinity.
The definition of "shuffle" in the Rules is referenced before a game OR during a game, and the definition then directs to Rules 103.1, which I referenced above.
The rule you mention (716.2) involves short cutting. However, Rule 716.2a defines a shortcut as something that would otherwise be a legal action. Failing to shuffle, or shuffling improperly, when you are required to shuffle is an illegal action. Therefore, you cannot use rule 716.2 while mid-combo with Knight of the Reliquary, because you are required to shuffle after each activation.
Even worse will be when g1 goes long, the Retreat player finally gets combo, then shuffles every time to make the g1 kill last most of the rest of the round. Because he is technically required to shuffle, as long as he is shuffling fairly quickly I don't see how an opponent could complain of stalling, but shuffling 15+ times, even going pretty quickly, is a lot of time being spent. If this deck ends up being good, it is actually quite possible it will get banned for this reason.
On the deck itself:
I think going all-in on the combo is a bad idea. The combo is not nearly as strong as other combo options, isn't easy to search for, and doesn't have redundancy. Trying to go all-in on a sorcery-speed combo requiring 6 total mana is NOT a good plan in a format that includes Abrupt Decay. Every deck can interact with your combo, so you need to make it harder for them to be ready for it. The strength of the deck comes from the fact that KotR is a modern-playable beatdown card on its own, and Retreat, while not a playable card outside the combo, does have the ability to help dig for KotR, slow down opponents, or tap down blockers. I haven't had the chance to do much testing, so don't have an exact list, but I'm testing stuff like Goyf, Snappy, Path, counters, St Traft, Finks, Elspeth 1 (or maybe new Gideon), Hierarch, Voice of Resurgence, etc. This gives you a strong deck able to stay on the offensive and force the opponent to use their removal/counters to stay alive, preventing them from sitting back and holding up interaction for the combo.
Because there's no instant speed card draw in the deck really, it's pretty irrelevant and you can always just shuffle ahead of any interaction.
The only time it might be relevant is vs. Lantern control (say they want to mill something and extract it during the combo) and you can just do it on a case by case basis.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Fwiw, I think the best version of these decks includes Tarmogoyf, but a playable version likely exists without it. If you search for replacements, look for something that doesn't get diminished by graveyard hate if possible; might as well diversify the threat base some. Leaning more heavily on Voice and/or Geist or other options could still end up being a very competitive deck.
wow i had not looked at this perspective yet and i think you are right.
This was exactly my concern. I realize it's premature, but there is precedent.
CG
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Zoo naturally beats up blue decks. Last gp there were 5 zoos in the top 32, and 2 twin, 1 jund. I wouldn't be quick to dismiss it with a single matchup and about 12 games.
I've play about 50 matches, most different random decks, and I'm certainly at a 75 win %. I'm not screaming the deck is OP because in my videos Ive openly said "I'm a better player than most, Im using a deck people dont exactly understand, and Im a very small sample size.
Baloths or Smiters in the board would do a lot of work v. Jund if that's really that rough, but Jund has a pretty hard time against geist+birds in a lot of situations too.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
A) show the short cut once, and say you intend to do it a X amount of times, and name your triggers each time. You can tell them they either accept the short cut (and if they want a judge can be there) and they can interrupt it if they feel like it, or state a time they would interrupt it. At this point the opponent can say shuffle is a mandatory effect, and they want you to shuffle each time. That brings you to:
B) Call a judge. Under a judges supervision you can say "I have this short cut, he doesnt want me to do it. What is your ruling. If you rule in favor of the shuffle, Id like you to stay here and insure this doesnt go to time, or that stalling happens.
I have no problems with having to go to option B, because anyone who is forcing you to not short cut, is trying to stall you. Thats cheating.
Source: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-rulings/634983-knight-of-the-reliquary-and-retreat-to-coralhelm
Edit: also, turns out if a lantern is in play, this wont allow you to short cut, because of the reveal would change each time. Thattttttsss a strike against having Corsair of Krophix!