never! gavony is a wincon.. you can play one field in your 75 but not over gavony
It's more like Kessig Wolf Run over Gavony. Kessig provides some reach in a deck that otherwise has none. Township is a stellar card, but Wolf-Run has a more immediate impact and, frequently, is more mana efficient. Modern is too fast to take 2 turns off.
Truly, I wish I could play both (the lack of township brings my mirror win-percentage way down), but there's not enough room.
As to Field of ruin, our deck can ALMOST support three colorless lands. As such, field of ruin works reasonably well as it isn't fully colorless.
Worth mentioning: I don't claim that the wolf run is right (I'm pretty sure it's not), but I will claim that I'm more comfortable with it, and that's a strong enough reason to prefer it
never! gavony is a wincon.. you can play one field in your 75 but not over gavony
Yeah I was asking a question about the list he posted, not making a suggestion. Personally I'd never leave home without Gavony
I play the traditional Wolf Run, Gavony, and 1 GQ for my colorless lands (I'm still playing Retreat)
I've just found I never usually want to spend the mana on Field, because ideally I'm holding up Queller or CoCo
Interesting stuff. I've been tempted to try playing without Retreat, but I think I'd still like to keep in the red splash for Kessig and Staticaster out of the board. Has anybody else tried something similar?
Was previously opposed to running Bojuka Bog in the sideboard
But after getting manhandled by Dredge I think it's a necessary evil. Creeping Chill is just Too. Damn. Good.
Wins were over Esper Shadow, Grixis Delver, and Jund
I can do a loose writup of how the matches went if anyone cares.
Was my first time playing with Jace though and he's honestly great for us. Was especially powerful when paired with Nissa, Steward of Elements.
Against Jund I was able to Brainstorm a Reflector Mage from my hand to the top of my library, cast Nissa for X=4, then 0 in Reflector and hold up Path to deal with BBE + Goyf, protecting my walkers long enough for a win
I don't think it's where we want to be. Bant Company/Knightfall is focused more on individual card power like a Midrange deck.
Image does really well in tribal decks because those decks function mostly off of synergy (mainly lords)
Really like this deck, however I've been on a losing streak lately. I'm still playing 2x retreat (pretty standard list) and it feels like taking them out would be even worse.
I'm really struggling against "uninteractive" or "goldfishy" decks. Seems like I can never get a meaningful clock going, so even if I delay their gameplan with a queller or two ( + unified will / negate after sideboarding), that still give them a few turns to naturally draw "their thing", combo off and win.
How do you guys approach storm, valakut, tron, etc?
I really like Eidolon of Rhetoric for Storm.
If you see Tron a lot I'd consider Gaddock Teeg in the Sideboard (and Stony Silence of course)
Valakut is reeeeally really tough without devoting sideboard space to it (flashfreeze and stuff)
I’ve cut the combo part and play 2 meddling MD , it helps o lot against Combo deck game 1 , like storm , ad nauseam etc...
For valakut , the matchup is really not good for us .. unified will helps post board , but still it’s an hard matchup , against tron ghost et field + pressure can help you win the race !
I have commented a few times before but after going 5-0 last night at my lgs I feel the need to post my list and encourage you guys to make two major changes.
My list:
Bant Retreat
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Heirarch
2 Meddling Mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Path to Exile
1 Dromoka's Command
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptur
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Field of Ruin
1 Gavony Township
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Stirring Wildwood
First major point:
Retreat to Coralhelm
This card is a neccessity for the deck if you wish to compete with the tier 1 decks of the format. Don't lie to yourself and think that without discard or a fast linear start that you can compete with the likes of the top tables. Moreover don't use the excuse that variance is the only thing holding you back when our deck is inherently less powerful with out Retreat. I play 3 and have adjusted my mana base to make sure I can combo a 20 damage Knight of the Reliquary on turn 3.
Second major point:
Is Collected Company that good? End of turn, pay 4, Company, Knight of the Reliquary, Tireless Tracker. Game. Totally agree. But the times that Company doesn't hit or you get a Bird of Paradise or Noble to go along with your Scavenging Ooze versus Tron are too numerous. I have moved toward more planeswalkers and I encourage you to do the same. The guranteed card advantage coupled with a difficult to remove threat is awesome. My last positive experience with the lack of Company and more Walkers is the deck building freedom. 23 lands and 8 mana dorks actually feels great when you are ramping into a Brainstorm or having an extra blocker in front of Teferi. Without Company the sideboarding options expand to allow us more knock out blows to our worst match ups. Timely Reinforcements is a helluva card.
Control: No doubt playing more sorcery speed threats has made this style of the deck worst against control. Regardless, if you love Knight of the Reliquary as much as I do, give this version a spin.
First major point:
Retreat to Coralhelm
This card is a neccessity for the deck if you wish to compete with the tier 1 decks of the format. Don't lie to yourself and think that without discard or a fast linear start that you can compete with the likes of the top tables. Moreover don't use the excuse that variance is the only thing holding you back when our deck is inherently less powerful with out Retreat. I play 3 and have adjusted my mana base to make sure I can combo a 20 damage Knight of the Reliquary on turn 3.
I completely agree with this, and would never drop under 3. You WANT to be a combo deck Game 1 at the very least.
I'm not sure on dropping CoCo yet, its a house.
I'm still huge on Tracker, 4 KoR/3 Retreat, and 3 Knight of Autumn, but I wouldnt play the deck if it did not have the Turn 3 win potential.
So I took a somewhat budget Knightfall list to SCG Worcester's Modern Classic last weekend. I didn't do well, but I figured some people might be interested in a tournament report of sorts. First of all, here was the list I ran:
As you can see, I prefer the creature-centric beatdown plan over the combo, however it's impossible to compete in Modern without at least a little bit of unfair magic or boatloads of disruption (a la Jund). As a compromise I'm running 1 Retreat so I still have an out with the combo, but I'm not focused on winning with it. Besides that, the 3 Avacyn's Pilgrims act as a poor man's Noble Hierarchs. The Wheel of Sun and Moon is my little bit of spicy sideboard tech that doesn't shut of CoCo (unlike Grafdigger's Cage), allows KotR to still grow (unlike Rest in Peace) and functions well as a 1-2 of (unlike Leyline of the Void). Unfortunately I don't think I ever drew it in this tournament.
Matches:
Lost 1-2 vs. UR Phoenix. Game 1 I landed a Scavenging Ooze and managed to eat an Arclight Phoenix, but I had no way to deal with the two Things in the Ice that he resolved and lost the game. Path and Reflector Mage are the only outs to that. Game two I was on the play and got a quick Collected Company into KotR, searching up a Bojuka Bog and slowing him down significantly. A few turns later I topdecked a Retreat and he scooped. Game 3 was pretty close--I played around his Izzet Charm and landed a clutch Vendilion Clique, but eventually got run over by more copies of Thing in the Ice. I saw 1 Path and 0 Reflector Mages in the whole match, which was disappointing.
Drew 1-1 against Eldrazi & Taxes in a match I should have won. Game 1 was a ridiculous 40+ minute grindfest where he played an Eldrazi Displacer, Blade Splicer, multiple Tidehollow Scullers, a Leonin Arbiter, and a Thalia. I got a big Knight down as well as two Tireless Trackers, who gave some much-needed card advantage (although they never got big because he kept blinking them with Displacer to remove the +1/+1 counters). I was happy with how I piloted this game, which included a sneaky Gavony Township off KotR to blow out one of his attacks and kill his first-strikers. Eventually I got there, mostly thanks to Knight of Autumn killing a Tidehollow Sculler (it's an artifact!) which returned my Path. After Pathing the Displacer and Ghost-Quartering his Shambling Vent, I was able to swing in for lethal. In game 2 he landed a turn 1 Aether Vial into turn 2 Leonin Arbiter, while I played a dork and tried not to get blown out by Arbiter + Path to Exile. Between the two of us I think we cast 5 Paths in the first few turns. He found an Eldrazi Temple, and then topdecked a Reality Smasher, while I hit land after land. I died and we couldn't start game 3 before time was called. I think I played well but the match was disappointing, as it definitely could have been a 1-0 or 2-1 win.
Lost 1-2 against UW Control. Round 3 was another heartbreaker loss, this time on the very last turn of extra turns. Game 1 I had a fast start with mana dork into Tireless Tracker (which got Pathed) into CoCo hitting Knight of the Reliquary and Voice of Resurgence. I got my opponent all the way down to 2 life when he wiped the board. In response, I used Knight to get a Gavony Township because I had a Birds of Paradise in hand. I played it and activated Gavony on his end step, then activated again on my turn for lethal. I was suprised that this worked, as he had a Field of Ruin in play and I expected Gavony to the bite the dust, but he either missed it or thought he could just block with Snapcaster or something. Game 2 I kept a hand of dork, Gaddock Teeg, Voice of Resurgence, Unified Will, Spell Queller, and 2 lands. He tapped out for Azcanta and I played Teeg on turn 2 with Unified Will backup. That stopped his first Path, and Queller quelled his second. He managed to topdeck a third copy, which exiled Queller, and then used the old Path to remove Teeg. I drew a Collected Company and mainphased it to avoid the Cryptic Command that I was sure had been stuck in his hand, hitting KotR and Scooze. He binned a land off Azcanta and then miracled a Terminus. I drew something inconsequential (can't remember what exactly) and he slammed Teferi the next turn on an empty board, which all but ended the game. In game 3 I kept a mull to 6 which had one land, three dorks, a queller, and a Knight of Autumn. I think this was a good keep in retrospect but unfortunately played out as badly as possible. I played a land and Hierarch, and he played a Hallowed Fountain and Opted. I didn't draw a second land on turn two, so I decided to play out all my mana dorks. My opponent blind-flips a Terminus, the one and only card that could have messed up my plan (since pathing a dork just gives me the land anyway). We ended up going to time, where he won on turn 5 of turns off a Celestial Colonnade, animated Gideon of the Trials, and counterspell backup for my Path. I still think I played this match pretty well, and it was definitely winnable for Knightfall. Terminus is a cool card, but sometimes I really hate playing against it.
Lost 0-2 vs. UR Phoenix. This was even more brutal than Round 1, as my opponent had turn 1 Faithless Looting discarding double Arclight Phoenix on the play. Not much I could do there. In game two I found a lot of my graveyard hate in addition to casting 3 (yes, 3) Collected Companies, but I never hit a Reflector Mage. Crackling Drake doesn't care about whether you exile graveyards, and a double Thing in the Ice draw sealed the game even after I found a Path to Exile. The Phoenixes themselves aren't that scary after sideboarding, but TiTi is a beast. Err, horror. You get the idea.
Won 2-0 against a weird UW Tron deck (Eldrazi? Gifts? I really don't know). I steamrolled him in game 1 because he couldn't find his third tron piece or an Eldrazi Temple, and I chained 3-drop after 3-drop off my mana dorks. Game 2 he mulled to 4, which turned out to be natural Tron plus a Basilisk Collar. Thankfully I had a Damping Sphere in my opener, and was able to Spell Queller the Walking Ballista he drew. Considering the mulligan this was actually a much closer game than it should have been, but it was nice to have a dominating performance in at least one match.
Round 6 was a bye for me because my opponent never showed. I decided to drop and play side events, as I was well out of prize contention at this point and didn't want to waste time waiting for the round to end. The match next to me was interesting at least--it turned out to be a spicy Bogles deck vs. Werewolf tribal.
Overall, my finish was obviously disappointing but I was happy with my piloting and had a lot of fun. It's important to be critical of your play, but a lot of my losses came down to luck, and I think I played to my outs pretty well. Stuff like the control deck's repeated blind Terminus flips sucked, especially in the last game, but at some point you have to just pray that doesn't happen--there wasn't really a way to avoid it. Besides the card choices I discussed in the decklist section, I would make a few changes going forward:
Re-evaluate the use of noncreature cards in the sideboard. I found things like Damping Sphere and Nissa to be underwhelming, and I don't think they justified the fact that they make Collected Company that much worse. I was not excited by Deputy of Detention in RNA but now I'm thinking he might make the cut.
Retreat is a nice "degenerate package" as an alternative to the beatdown/grindy midrange plan, but adding 2-3 more copies really stresses CoCo's consistency. I think the deck either should play 0-1 Retreats and a suite of value creatures with CoCo, or 3 Retreats main/1 SB and a bunch of planeswalkers (Jace, Teferi, Tamiyo, and Nissa) and spells (Dromoka's Command, Settle the Wreckage) in the extra slots. I can't afford JTMS and Teferis, so for now I'm stuck on the CoCo plan. I'd love to hear your thoughts on what the "right" path is going forward.
Vendilion Clique is amazing (but you probably already knew that). Once I can afford it I'm definitely going to run another in the sideboard, or maybe even mainboard. Gaddock Teeg is great too, and probably deserves a second copy (he is strictly sideboard though since he shuts off CoCo).
I need to rethink my approach to graveyard hate. A lot of it is a trap--decks like Hollow One and Phoenix both have at least a few threats that don't care about the graveyard, so while we're wasting time and slots playing hate cards they're just killing us anyway.
I think Lavinia is gonna be worth trying as it pairs nicely with queller at worst and it slows down some some tough matchups game 1 and is easily sided out for all the great sideboard cards we have. Curious as to what you guys think?
Agreed, Lavinia, Azorius Renegade will have probably have her place in the deck and i will sleeve up again when i get my copies.
I also think Tithe Taker could be the CoCo's (maindeckable?) version of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. It surely fixes a lot of URx (i.e. jeskai/grixis) problems.
In my version though, i go up a copy of Retreat to Coralhelm and focus more on comboing off.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/the-knight-falls/
It's more like Kessig Wolf Run over Gavony. Kessig provides some reach in a deck that otherwise has none. Township is a stellar card, but Wolf-Run has a more immediate impact and, frequently, is more mana efficient. Modern is too fast to take 2 turns off.
Truly, I wish I could play both (the lack of township brings my mirror win-percentage way down), but there's not enough room.
As to Field of ruin, our deck can ALMOST support three colorless lands. As such, field of ruin works reasonably well as it isn't fully colorless.
Worth mentioning: I don't claim that the wolf run is right (I'm pretty sure it's not), but I will claim that I'm more comfortable with it, and that's a strong enough reason to prefer it
Yeah I was asking a question about the list he posted, not making a suggestion. Personally I'd never leave home without Gavony
I play the traditional Wolf Run, Gavony, and 1 GQ for my colorless lands (I'm still playing Retreat)
I've just found I never usually want to spend the mana on Field, because ideally I'm holding up Queller or CoCo
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/article/en/category/detail/415
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/26-06-17-knightfall/
Was previously opposed to running Bojuka Bog in the sideboard
But after getting manhandled by Dredge I think it's a necessary evil. Creeping Chill is just Too. Damn. Good.
Wins were over Esper Shadow, Grixis Delver, and Jund
I can do a loose writup of how the matches went if anyone cares.
Was my first time playing with Jace though and he's honestly great for us. Was especially powerful when paired with Nissa, Steward of Elements.
Against Jund I was able to Brainstorm a Reflector Mage from my hand to the top of my library, cast Nissa for X=4, then 0 in Reflector and hold up Path to deal with BBE + Goyf, protecting my walkers long enough for a win
Image does really well in tribal decks because those decks function mostly off of synergy (mainly lords)
I'm really struggling against "uninteractive" or "goldfishy" decks. Seems like I can never get a meaningful clock going, so even if I delay their gameplan with a queller or two ( + unified will / negate after sideboarding), that still give them a few turns to naturally draw "their thing", combo off and win.
How do you guys approach storm, valakut, tron, etc?
If you see Tron a lot I'd consider Gaddock Teeg in the Sideboard (and Stony Silence of course)
Valakut is reeeeally really tough without devoting sideboard space to it (flashfreeze and stuff)
For valakut , the matchup is really not good for us .. unified will helps post board , but still it’s an hard matchup , against tron ghost et field + pressure can help you win the race !
My list:
Bant Retreat
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Heirarch
2 Meddling Mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Voice of Resurgence
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Path to Exile
1 Dromoka's Command
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptur
2 Teferi, Hero of Dominaria
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Field of Ruin
1 Gavony Township
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Damping Sphere
2 Negate
2 Knight of Autumn
2 Stony Silence
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Settle the Wreckage
1 Disdainful Stroke
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Vendilion Clique
First major point:
Retreat to Coralhelm
This card is a neccessity for the deck if you wish to compete with the tier 1 decks of the format. Don't lie to yourself and think that without discard or a fast linear start that you can compete with the likes of the top tables. Moreover don't use the excuse that variance is the only thing holding you back when our deck is inherently less powerful with out Retreat. I play 3 and have adjusted my mana base to make sure I can combo a 20 damage Knight of the Reliquary on turn 3.
Second major point:
Is Collected Company that good? End of turn, pay 4, Company, Knight of the Reliquary, Tireless Tracker. Game. Totally agree. But the times that Company doesn't hit or you get a Bird of Paradise or Noble to go along with your Scavenging Ooze versus Tron are too numerous. I have moved toward more planeswalkers and I encourage you to do the same. The guranteed card advantage coupled with a difficult to remove threat is awesome. My last positive experience with the lack of Company and more Walkers is the deck building freedom. 23 lands and 8 mana dorks actually feels great when you are ramping into a Brainstorm or having an extra blocker in front of Teferi. Without Company the sideboarding options expand to allow us more knock out blows to our worst match ups. Timely Reinforcements is a helluva card.
Control: No doubt playing more sorcery speed threats has made this style of the deck worst against control. Regardless, if you love Knight of the Reliquary as much as I do, give this version a spin.
I completely agree with this, and would never drop under 3. You WANT to be a combo deck Game 1 at the very least.
I'm not sure on dropping CoCo yet, its a house.
I'm still huge on Tracker, 4 KoR/3 Retreat, and 3 Knight of Autumn, but I wouldnt play the deck if it did not have the Turn 3 win potential.
Spirits
2-1 Mill
0-2 Belcher
2-0 Belcher (wtf how do I get 2 back to back)
2-0 UW Titan
Turn 3 Retreat Wins.
Spirits
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
1 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
2 Knight of Autumn
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Reflector Mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Spell Queller
2 Tireless Tracker
1 Vendilion Clique
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
Lands (22)
1 Botanical Sanctum
2 Breeding Pool
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Plains
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Damping Sphere
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Knight of Autumn
2 Negate
1 Nissa, Steward of Elements
1 Remorseful Cleric
1 Settle the Wreckage
2 Stony Silence
2 Unified Will
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
As you can see, I prefer the creature-centric beatdown plan over the combo, however it's impossible to compete in Modern without at least a little bit of unfair magic or boatloads of disruption (a la Jund). As a compromise I'm running 1 Retreat so I still have an out with the combo, but I'm not focused on winning with it. Besides that, the 3 Avacyn's Pilgrims act as a poor man's Noble Hierarchs. The Wheel of Sun and Moon is my little bit of spicy sideboard tech that doesn't shut of CoCo (unlike Grafdigger's Cage), allows KotR to still grow (unlike Rest in Peace) and functions well as a 1-2 of (unlike Leyline of the Void). Unfortunately I don't think I ever drew it in this tournament.
Matches:
Overall, my finish was obviously disappointing but I was happy with my piloting and had a lot of fun. It's important to be critical of your play, but a lot of my losses came down to luck, and I think I played to my outs pretty well. Stuff like the control deck's repeated blind Terminus flips sucked, especially in the last game, but at some point you have to just pray that doesn't happen--there wasn't really a way to avoid it. Besides the card choices I discussed in the decklist section, I would make a few changes going forward:
I've been playing both retreat and non retreat for about a year and I love the non retreat version. This is the list I plan on running once RNA is out:
https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bant-company-good-stuff-1/
I think Lavinia is gonna be worth trying as it pairs nicely with queller at worst and it slows down some some tough matchups game 1 and is easily sided out for all the great sideboard cards we have. Curious as to what you guys think?
I also think Tithe Taker could be the CoCo's (maindeckable?) version of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. It surely fixes a lot of URx (i.e. jeskai/grixis) problems.
In my version though, i go up a copy of Retreat to Coralhelm and focus more on comboing off.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW