How have you guys been handling humans? In the games I've played it seems like a very close matchup.
After struggling with it in leagues I went in search of good sideboard options. Does anyone have anything spicy?
I know it's a hard deck to hate out. My current board plan is to bring in revoker for vial or staticaster, reflector, and blessed alliance for riders. I'm considering adding settle the wreckage or ghostly prison
Worship literally wins the game when you play it. They have NO WAYYY to kill you after it resolves so they kinda have to go all-in on the Kitesail Freebooter & Meddling Mage plan.
Triple Staticaster is completely obnoxious. I remember at GP Toronto I talked to Eli and he was completely on the 3-4 Staticaster plan.
Settle the Wreckage is great but is a one time thing and it doesn't necessarily win the game. Maybe if they're all in crashing in all their stuff then yeah it'll be game winning, but I'd rather have insta-win cards like Worship, Staticaster, and Reflector Mage as a means of winning.
Ghostly is also kinda narrow like Settle in that decks that, if you're in trouble by creatures attacking you, when your whole deck is creatures and Voice of Resurgence then you're already losing. In that scenario, Reflector Mage is better because it prevents threats from clocking you while developing your board. It's also 3 toughness so it's an okay blocker.
Wow how did I forget about worship? That's brilliant. I've actually used that card before but it slipped my mind.
I'm actually already up to the four reflectors after board. I've found them to be ok, but very bad against aether vial. Also can be a little awkward if they have images.
Back when I was testing vizier knightfall and struggling against humans, I threw an ulvenwald tracker in my deck almost as a joke. I quickly realized that untapping with him is basically GG and have kept him as a 1 of in the sb ever since. He absolutely destroys other creature decks, and is a great way to force VoR to trade up into the token as well.
Back when I was playing vizier combo with Rhonas in the deck it felt like actual cheating to have tracker + rhonas in play.
Look at the card. Now back to Jace. Now back to that card, now back to Jace! Sadly, it isn't Jace, but if it stopped being a junk rare and became relevant, it could act like it's Jace. Crack some Worldwake. What do you have? You have a Jace, the card you wish this card could be like. Look again. THE CARD IS NOW A $75 BILL. Anything possible when you play Magic with Jace and not junk rares. This is probably spam.
Hey all, coming back to Bant after spending some time away from it. I know there's been some divergences in lists in terms of traditional Retreat combo vs. Jace vs. jamming both, etc. What I'm most curious about is - what happened to cards like Reflector Mage and to a lesser extent Courser of Kruphix and Selfless Spirit mainboard? Most lists that pop up don't seem to have any of those in the 60 with the exception of an occasional 1-of Selfless Spirit. Reflector Mage was MVP status much of the time behind Queller/KotR and dorks and Courser is just great value any time it hits play. Is there something with the meta that has caused this change? I'd still think Reflector Mage is good against Hollow One, Affinity, Tron, Humans if you plan to race them, Death's Shadow, and so on. So it's very good against a majority of the better decks, right? It also protects Jace well by bouncing potential threats on board. Also, I see decks jamming Voice of Resurgence main now as a 4-of, no questions asked. Against what decks are people finding that card to be most effective, Jeskai Control and the like?
Also, for those trying out Meddling Mage mainboard, what kind of success (or lack thereof) have you experienced?
Courser is still reasonable, but the real value of having it is when you can elongate games to reap the rewards of the Life Gain and free lands off the top. Contrary to popular belief, she's not really the best against aggro decks. Yeah Courser has 4 toughness and gains life, but Humans gets HUGE really fast and can strike in the air, Hollow One punches with 4+ power most of the time, Affinity can just kill you before you get enough Land Drops for Life Gain, Bogles doesn't care, Death's Shadow (Delve threats and Goyf) all punch for huge amounts of damage, etc. We don't really have a build to take advantage of her in the current meta, more so it's just a good grind card. However, most of our deck is about high impact cards like Knight, Spell Queller, Tracker, Clique, etc. Only G/W Value Town can really take advantage of this because the deck can just spew out land drops via Azusa, Courser herself, Ramunap Excavator, and Knight of the Reliquary. There's more to say but kinda unnecessary. It's still a good choice especially if your meta is a bunch of fair decks.
Selfless Spirit is just a hit or miss for some people. Sometimes it's like the game changer but then sometimes it's just a 2/1. It doesn't have high impact MOST of the time but it's still a very useful utility creature when it's ability is applicable.
Reflector Mage is almost always serviceable and applicable in nearly all match-ups where creatures matter. This ranges from CoCo/Chord, Death's Shadow/Tarmogoyf decks, Burn, Humans, etc. His stock went down when Death's Shadow no longer reigned supreme in the format BUT that's not to say that Reflector Mage isn't an excellent creature. People always argue ALL THE TIME is that it's horrible in MU's where opponents aren't really playing creatures (Um, no ***** lmao) or that he's good in match-ups we're already good in. I think the flaw behind that rationale is people fail to realize it allows us to interact with our opponent's creatures while providing a body to develop board presence and can be hit off CoCo. It's HUGE game when you'r following up a Reflector Mage or two with pressure from Knight/Queller/Tracker/CoCo/etc. We could go back and forth but for the most part it's really subjective to what you believe is correct: playing Reflector Mage within the 75 or not.
I believe that the 4 Voice of Resurgence was a response to the unbannings and the predetermined meta shifts that would follow. An uptick in fair blue decks and Jund (not limited to these two) automatically screams attrition, which makes Voice applicable more often. It's incredibly infuriating to play against a resolved Voice as a Blue Mage and Voice offers resilience against Jund's removal and blocking BBE for value. Voice of Resurgence is also just an incredible blocker and leaves a bigger creature behind. The most successful decks, in terms of win percentage and meta share, are aggro decks: Humans, Hollow One, Affinty, and Burn, by mtggoldfish's standards. Voice being able to block Twice is A LOT of life and turns saved. Being multi purpose (representing value, resilience, and multiple bodies) it only seems correct to have 4 Voice at this current time. Until they unban stoneforge (WOOOO) voice is just the best right now.
I've been all over the place in modern lately (been spending more time on maverick in legacy). Played counters company of all kinds, zoo, and humans, but none of them have been as fun as knightfall was for me so i think im coming back. I don't own Jace lol but it looks like strong company hits and the interaction with queller, mage, counter spells etc is very good right now. Look forward to being back.
I got trouble dealing with Death's shadow-decks, because there gameplan is a bit counterintuitive to me;
What is our plan against them? I got the issue, that most of our critters line up poorly against there threats and just outright die.
You'd still be at 25 Company hits post board. I've had success bringing in Eidolon of Rhetoric on the play as well, between Snaps and the deck being densely packed with cantrips it can seriously slow them down.
Any of you guys also play value town? I go back and forth between these decks and it feels tough to know which to go with. I understand value town is a looking to grind and draw the game out, and knightfall is more of a tempo deck in some ways but they play mostly along the same axis. Anybody have any insight as to whats better in the meta these days? (I've been playing a lot more legacy lately...Maverick is super fun)
Any of you guys also play value town? I go back and forth between these decks and it feels tough to know which to go with. I understand value town is a looking to grind and draw the game out, and knightfall is more of a tempo deck in some ways but they play mostly along the same axis. Anybody have any insight as to whats better in the meta these days? (I've been playing a lot more legacy lately...Maverick is super fun)
I've had both in the rotation lately. As you stated, GW VT has a far more impressive late game and if I had to choose a deck to combat a more midrange dominated meta it would likely be my first choice in terms of Company decks. Bant, especially with the Retreat combo is far better suited vs. decks not looking to interact with the exception of Tron (Bant has still been pretty decent for me vs. Tron). If I had to choose one knowing I'd be playing a 50/50 field of both interactive control/midrange and non-interactive combo (Storm, Vizier Company, KCI, Etc..) I'd likely side with Bant featuring Retreat.
I'm currently switching decks too and to be honest, i'm far more impressed with Value Town than Retreat. When I play GW on MTGO i'm able to wreck Affinity and all these Hollow One decks. Of course those two decks attack the opponent on a different axis, while you have a better Aggro Matchup and can attack you'r Opponents recources with GW, you have additional powerful Cardchoices with JTMS, Spell Queller, Reflector Mage and Unified Will in Bant and you get a certain flexibility that Value Town has not.
I'm going to test Bant Vizier Company too, I guess the Format currently is so diverse and so awesome, i can't decide what to play. For me personally, it depends on if i see a lot of Blood Moons or not. If I see Moons, I go with Valuetown simply because I can't get punished hard when I play the greedy 3.5 color Manabase.
Have you guys got good Results with Bant Company without Retreat? I see more lists without it, I played blue mostly for JTMS, Baby Jace (which is performing amazingly), Queller and Retreat but it seems that People are getting away from the Combo and instead filling the slots with more Value.
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Modern: GWUKnightfall WUSpirits GWBCounters Company
Legacy: WBGR Aggro Loam
That's basically the idea. I run 2 Voice of Resurgence main because I think that card is key in any grindy matchup, and 2 Eternal Witness (great to chain Cocos toward your combo or just value) Right now I'm trying a single Renegade Rallier as a way to rebuy combo pieces or voice, get back Ghost Quarter when that's relevant, or make clues for Tracker. I go down to 6 1-drop dorks (10 total accelerants is enough IMO), 3 Vizier of Remedies (because that card stinks), put the Scavenging Ooze in the sideboard, and cut 2 Tireless Tracker.
In terms of the lands, personally I'd cut 2 Field of Ruin for 1 Gavony Township and 1 Horizon Canopy, but I can see the appeal of mass land destruction. Stomping Ground + Kessig Wolf Run is a consideration, but it does kind of make the deck run less smoothly. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is also a spicy fun-of option. It can be a decent way to go over the top in grindy matchups. It may ultimately be too cute, though.
Anyone know list Kelvin Chew is playing these days?
This is what he sent me after GP Sydney where his personal record was 6-1-1 but I believe his team failed to Day 2. He'd also mentioned he'd gone 6-2 in Kyoto prior but not sure if this is the exact same list.
I liked meddling mage in knightfall a lot a few months ago. Decks like storm, ad nauseum, UW control, and valakut were all pretty soft to it.
More recently though, one of the best decks in the format is running a full playset with ways to copy them. People have adapted - red combo decks play bolts, control decks diversify wraths, and decks like KCI are overtaking less flexible archetypes.
Long story short, I don't think you want them right now. It's a card that we'd play to steal game ones, but the decks we're targeting have had time to adjust to it.
What do you guys think of those 2 Meddling Mage main ?
Knightfall has always been first and foremost a value/tempo deck. That said, not all our value/tempo cards align with what our opponent is doing (see scavenging ooze against Tron). To solve this problem, traditionally, we played retreat to coralhelm. However, since Jace was unbanned, some players, like Kelvin Chew and myself, have eschewed playing retreat in favor of Jace. Jace both helps solve the answers aligning with threats problem that is probably this deck's greatest weakness as well as not being a loss in tempo (see drawing retreat without a knight).
However, knightfall still needs a little boost for combo matchups like storm. To assist with this problem, some of us started playing meddling mage as it enables us to interact with decks in a tempo/value way that we still need to do so against. In other words, we are trying to go even deeper on the tempo/value plan as meddling mage let's us fight "fairly" against decks that normally ignore this plan entirely.
That said, Meddling Mage still somewhat suffers from the retreat to coralhelm problem as it all too frequently is an almost vanilla 2 mana 2/2 that is pretty taxing on the manabase. The big bonus though is that it can be hit off of company.
TLDR: Jace allows for a greater degree of consistency which allows us to vary our answers to other decks. Meddling mage is a great way to vary our answers
Thanks guys for your answer. I have been playing Knightfall for a while now but never used Meddling Mage before. I tried it during my last FNM and it was fine. My other question is about Kira Great Glass Spiner. This card don’t go well with Retreat, but I’m also playing a non Retreat list with Jace. So I think it fit pretty well in our deck as a 1 of, espacially with Selfless Spirit and Queller. What do you guys think ?
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After struggling with it in leagues I went in search of good sideboard options. Does anyone have anything spicy?
I know it's a hard deck to hate out. My current board plan is to bring in revoker for vial or staticaster, reflector, and blessed alliance for riders. I'm considering adding settle the wreckage or ghostly prison
Worship literally wins the game when you play it. They have NO WAYYY to kill you after it resolves so they kinda have to go all-in on the Kitesail Freebooter & Meddling Mage plan.
Triple Staticaster is completely obnoxious. I remember at GP Toronto I talked to Eli and he was completely on the 3-4 Staticaster plan.
Settle the Wreckage is great but is a one time thing and it doesn't necessarily win the game. Maybe if they're all in crashing in all their stuff then yeah it'll be game winning, but I'd rather have insta-win cards like Worship, Staticaster, and Reflector Mage as a means of winning.
Ghostly is also kinda narrow like Settle in that decks that, if you're in trouble by creatures attacking you, when your whole deck is creatures and Voice of Resurgence then you're already losing. In that scenario, Reflector Mage is better because it prevents threats from clocking you while developing your board. It's also 3 toughness so it's an okay blocker.
I'm actually already up to the four reflectors after board. I've found them to be ok, but very bad against aether vial. Also can be a little awkward if they have images.
Back when I was playing vizier combo with Rhonas in the deck it felt like actual cheating to have tracker + rhonas in play.
URURxUR
UWUWxUW
Also, for those trying out Meddling Mage mainboard, what kind of success (or lack thereof) have you experienced?
Selfless Spirit is just a hit or miss for some people. Sometimes it's like the game changer but then sometimes it's just a 2/1. It doesn't have high impact MOST of the time but it's still a very useful utility creature when it's ability is applicable.
Reflector Mage is almost always serviceable and applicable in nearly all match-ups where creatures matter. This ranges from CoCo/Chord, Death's Shadow/Tarmogoyf decks, Burn, Humans, etc. His stock went down when Death's Shadow no longer reigned supreme in the format BUT that's not to say that Reflector Mage isn't an excellent creature. People always argue ALL THE TIME is that it's horrible in MU's where opponents aren't really playing creatures (Um, no ***** lmao) or that he's good in match-ups we're already good in. I think the flaw behind that rationale is people fail to realize it allows us to interact with our opponent's creatures while providing a body to develop board presence and can be hit off CoCo. It's HUGE game when you'r following up a Reflector Mage or two with pressure from Knight/Queller/Tracker/CoCo/etc. We could go back and forth but for the most part it's really subjective to what you believe is correct: playing Reflector Mage within the 75 or not.
I believe that the 4 Voice of Resurgence was a response to the unbannings and the predetermined meta shifts that would follow. An uptick in fair blue decks and Jund (not limited to these two) automatically screams attrition, which makes Voice applicable more often. It's incredibly infuriating to play against a resolved Voice as a Blue Mage and Voice offers resilience against Jund's removal and blocking BBE for value. Voice of Resurgence is also just an incredible blocker and leaves a bigger creature behind. The most successful decks, in terms of win percentage and meta share, are aggro decks: Humans, Hollow One, Affinty, and Burn, by mtggoldfish's standards. Voice being able to block Twice is A LOT of life and turns saved. Being multi purpose (representing value, resilience, and multiple bodies) it only seems correct to have 4 Voice at this current time. Until they unban stoneforge (WOOOO) voice is just the best right now.
I've been all over the place in modern lately (been spending more time on maverick in legacy). Played counters company of all kinds, zoo, and humans, but none of them have been as fun as knightfall was for me so i think im coming back. I don't own Jace lol but it looks like strong company hits and the interaction with queller, mage, counter spells etc is very good right now. Look forward to being back.
i'm running Bant Knightfall for half a year now.
This is my list:
4 misty rainforest
2 flooded strand
2 botanical sanctum
2 forest
1 island
1 plains
1 breeding pool
1 hallowed fountain
1 temple garden
1 horizon canopy
1 ghost quarter
1 gavony township
4 birds of paradise
2 qasali pridemage
2 scavenging ooze
4 voice of resurgence
4 spell queller
2 vendilion clique
4 knight of the reliquary
2 tireless tracker
4 collected company
4 path to exile
2 jace, the mind sculptor
3 reflector mage
2 blessed alliance
2 kitchen finks
2 negate
2 disdainful stroke
1 eidolon of rhetoric
1 reclamation sage
1 stony silence
1 gideon, ally of zendikar
I got trouble dealing with Death's shadow-decks, because there gameplan is a bit counterintuitive to me;
What is our plan against them? I got the issue, that most of our critters line up poorly against there threats and just outright die.
The most useful creatures had been Reflector Mage, Svanging Ooze, Tireless Tracker and Knight.
Sometimes i'm not sure if they stick to there Temur Battle Rage gameplan - should i board out Spell Queller?
Right now i'm boarding as follows:
-2 Birds, -2 Queller, -2 Clique
+2 Finks, +3 Reflector Mage, +1 Gideon
because all Flyers line up poorly against there removal, Lingering Souls and Liliana, the Last hope. Am i right with this?
On the other hand Blessed Alliance and Negate look like promising tools against there deck.
Green @ it's best
-2 Birds
-2 Pridemage
-2 Clique
-2 Queller
+2 Finks
+3 Reflector Mage
+2 Blessed Alliance
+1 Gideon
You'd still be at 25 Company hits post board. I've had success bringing in Eidolon of Rhetoric on the play as well, between Snaps and the deck being densely packed with cantrips it can seriously slow them down.
I've had both in the rotation lately. As you stated, GW VT has a far more impressive late game and if I had to choose a deck to combat a more midrange dominated meta it would likely be my first choice in terms of Company decks. Bant, especially with the Retreat combo is far better suited vs. decks not looking to interact with the exception of Tron (Bant has still been pretty decent for me vs. Tron). If I had to choose one knowing I'd be playing a 50/50 field of both interactive control/midrange and non-interactive combo (Storm, Vizier Company, KCI, Etc..) I'd likely side with Bant featuring Retreat.
I'm going to test Bant Vizier Company too, I guess the Format currently is so diverse and so awesome, i can't decide what to play. For me personally, it depends on if i see a lot of Blood Moons or not. If I see Moons, I go with Valuetown simply because I can't get punished hard when I play the greedy 3.5 color Manabase.
Have you guys got good Results with Bant Company without Retreat? I see more lists without it, I played blue mostly for JTMS, Baby Jace (which is performing amazingly), Queller and Retreat but it seems that People are getting away from the Combo and instead filling the slots with more Value.
GWUKnightfall
WUSpirits
GWBCounters Company
Legacy:
WBGR Aggro Loam
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
That's basically the idea. I run 2 Voice of Resurgence main because I think that card is key in any grindy matchup, and 2 Eternal Witness (great to chain Cocos toward your combo or just value) Right now I'm trying a single Renegade Rallier as a way to rebuy combo pieces or voice, get back Ghost Quarter when that's relevant, or make clues for Tracker. I go down to 6 1-drop dorks (10 total accelerants is enough IMO), 3 Vizier of Remedies (because that card stinks), put the Scavenging Ooze in the sideboard, and cut 2 Tireless Tracker.
In terms of the lands, personally I'd cut 2 Field of Ruin for 1 Gavony Township and 1 Horizon Canopy, but I can see the appeal of mass land destruction. Stomping Ground + Kessig Wolf Run is a consideration, but it does kind of make the deck run less smoothly. Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx is also a spicy fun-of option. It can be a decent way to go over the top in grindy matchups. It may ultimately be too cute, though.
No Path to Exile or Bojuka Bog in the sideboard seems nuts to me, though.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
This is what he sent me after GP Sydney where his personal record was 6-1-1 but I believe his team failed to Day 2. He'd also mentioned he'd gone 6-2 in Kyoto prior but not sure if this is the exact same list.
1x Botanical Sanctum
1x Breeding Pool
1x Field of Ruin
2x Flooded Strand
2x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Eternal Witness
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Meddling Mage
4x Noble Hierarch
2x Reflector Mage
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Spell Queller
2x Tireless Tracker
3x Voice of Resurgence
Planeswalker (1)
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Instant (8)
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Negate
1x Reflector Mage
2x Stony Silence
3x Unified Will
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Voice of Resurgence
2x Worship
More recently though, one of the best decks in the format is running a full playset with ways to copy them. People have adapted - red combo decks play bolts, control decks diversify wraths, and decks like KCI are overtaking less flexible archetypes.
Long story short, I don't think you want them right now. It's a card that we'd play to steal game ones, but the decks we're targeting have had time to adjust to it.
However, knightfall still needs a little boost for combo matchups like storm. To assist with this problem, some of us started playing meddling mage as it enables us to interact with decks in a tempo/value way that we still need to do so against. In other words, we are trying to go even deeper on the tempo/value plan as meddling mage let's us fight "fairly" against decks that normally ignore this plan entirely.
That said, Meddling Mage still somewhat suffers from the retreat to coralhelm problem as it all too frequently is an almost vanilla 2 mana 2/2 that is pretty taxing on the manabase. The big bonus though is that it can be hit off of company.
TLDR: Jace allows for a greater degree of consistency which allows us to vary our answers to other decks. Meddling mage is a great way to vary our answers