Hey guys, i see a rising in the counters company Deck, but didn't play this match yet. How do you beat it? What are good sb-options?
I have always considered Abzan Company a pretty poor matchup, they are faster than we are and we only have 4x Path for interaction
I dont get how you all say that Abzan coco is a bad matchup. You don't need to race them, we have enough disruption (maindeck, 4 path 4 queller/collected and some oozes. Post sideboard, staticaster, gaddock teeg, reflector mage, eldritch evolution, negate) and if they don't have the absolute nut draw (Turn 3 kill that caught you without a path) it's really difficult for them to win. Indeed, I recently won vs abzan company (2-1) and the games went like that. The new deck is a bit more difficult to interact with (ooze goes from being a lock piece to just a good card) but every other card that I mentioned continues being really good.
Of course linvala is good, stops half of their deck leaving them little outs. But I think that it's too narrow. I think that teeg is better overall (last time teeg won me the game becuase my opponent was stuck with 3 chord of calling in his hand)
I have always considered Abzan Company a pretty poor matchup
I agree with this, especially on mtgo where a lot of the "Collected Counters" lists are actually just GW because you can't gain infinite life on mtgo. The infinite mana ability is much easier to manage on MTGO, so it's more popular and also a worse matchup for us than the traditional abzan combo. I lost to a GW infinite mana coco deck in the modern challenge this weekend, and the matchup seemed real hard because scooze does basically nothing aside from stopping eternal witness. You gotta pray for paths to stop the infinite mana. Eidolon of Rhetoric actually won me a game because they made infinite mana, but couldn't play the rest of their combo. I was able to break it up with a path, and then win that game. I think a phyrexian revoker could go a long way, especially with a eldritch evolution in the board.
I'll pipe in that i have not had many problems with Abzan company either. Admittedly a small sample size. 2-0. I think the matchup is pretty close. Spell queller is very good. I'm not sure how the new version of it will go though. Probably worse for us
My experience vs Abzan Company has been pretty polarizing.
On the play, t1 dork into t2 knight is a very strong opening and enables you to just hold up quellers or other disruption. Without a turn 1 dork, you can still keep up with t3 spell queller.
If you're on the draw, you really have to mulligan aggressively for t1 dork into queller OR t2 gaddock. Hands without a turn 1 dork into queller / t2 gaddock but with a path are still acceptable. If you're unable to get any of these you're screwed unless their hand is horrible.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
My experience vs Abzan Company has been pretty polarizing.
On the play, t1 dork into t2 knight is a very strong opening and enables you to just hold up quellers or other disruption. Without a turn 1 dork, you can still keep up with t3 spell queller.
If you're on the draw, you really have to mulligan aggressively for t1 dork into queller OR t2 gaddock. Hands without a turn 1 dork into queller / t2 gaddock but with a path are still acceptable. If you're unable to get any of these you're screwed unless their hand is horrible.
I've been on the new Abzan combo and this is pretty accurate. If you guys can hold up path and Spell Queller, its pretty smooth sailing. However, if we can get the combo going before you can get Spell Queller live, it's a rough go for Knightfall.
I've found this matchup very strongly favors who is on the play G1.
Kelvin Chew (Hyper) running a mash up of Knightfall and Vizier Druid. Talk about a spicy list. I kind of feel like this will end up being the worst of both worlds (aside from running Queller in Vizier Druid, which seems great) since the Vizier deck combos so well and the Knightfall combo really is an afterthought. Gives you much better post-board games against fair decks than Vizier Druid and better G1s than Knightfall.
Looks like Kelvin Chew is at it again. Super interesting list. Aside from Duskwatch Recruiter, the deck can also win with infinite mana into Kessig Wolf Run. This list is much stronger against GY hate than abzan. Two gavony is interesting though. I think I would still rather have 1 gavony and 1 GQ like normal bant coco decks.
You don't NEED the Misty unless you want an Island and the deck doesn't even need it. If you're worried about the lands you fetch just play 2 Breeding Pool, 1 Temple Garden, & 1 Sacred Foundry.
Alright gang, a friend has lent us the druids and rhonas (thanks for the offer anyways teferi) I will be streaming in approx 30mins.
Twitch.tv/jetpack_blues
We'll stream a friendly league with bant vizier just to see how it plays and then some comp leagues with both decks (traditional and vizier) over the next 2 days. So grateful for public holidays.
I'll also save videos on the stream for people to watch back over the next month.
Same deal as always, come hang out, tell me cards you wanna test and lets have a blast
I think I learnt alot over that, Firstly that I dont like this initial build of devotion to coralhelm. (ill go over why another time)
Id like to apologise for the lengthy discussion about concessions, one of the viewers had a great point about changing my line because of it being mtgo and that shouldnt make me change the way I play. which I think is correct, I shouldnt be taking sub optimal lines because modo.
But I would also like to defend not conceeding to "infinite life" as my opponent wasnt killing me with it.
I hope that something like that doesnt put off future viewers and that you guys that did join enjoyed the rest of the content.
Discussing openers is very interesting to me.
I thought what would reid duke do in that situation and he wouldnt conceede either. so thats how its gonna be.
Negate seems great in the vizier company matchup, was very impressed with that, good shout.
Ill be streaming again tomorrow. hopefully without the drama.
Skuttlespike/JetpackBlues thanks for the stream, I really enjoyed it and look forward to watching more.
I honestly don't share your negative outlook on the Knightfall/Vizier mash-up you were playing. I think it has legs with a few tweaks. The second match against UW looked winnable (if slightly worse than traditional Knightfall), and I think the match against Green Devotion could have gone differently with a Ghost Quarter in the list (though note this is probably a bad match-up for traditional Knightfall in general. We don't care though because Green Devotion is probably a tier 3 deck at best!)
I also don't know about more Birds over Nobles; I feel Noble is probably the best card in the deck. I say that with the full knowledge that fewer birds would make having Red for Wolf Run more awkward, but the Exalted is just so powerful. Overall threatening the combo seems pretty powerful. I wouldn't give up on the build yet.
I couldn't sleep last night, so ran it back and ended up 2-3, losing twice to affinity and once to an old death shadow aggro build, that played every spell in his hand by t3 inc triple mutagenic growth and become immense on a DS.
The affinity matchup even with triple staticaster felt bad. And again I lost a game due to not having a ghost quarter. So thats now in the list.
Agreed on the uw match, that was 100% winnable if i hadnt played so loose. I guess my attitude towards playing in the friendly leagues is a bit washy.
Weird. In my experience, affinity doesnt seem like such a bad matchup. Just stick a flier up their ass, keep a wasali for their important spells or combo off, g2 go for stony turn 2 or a decent removal spell then start shining.
About chew's brew...
I feel like the thing that the new abzan vizier deck does well is overloading a creature deck with combo pieces. Previously, abzan coco had a secondary beatdown plan but it was really mediocre. Now it just has 4 more combo pieces. When AKH released I made some brews with vizier and I was still in the old mentality of having a secondary beatdown plan, so I didn't play the full set of druids and trimmed some copies of viscera seer. But the succesful lists are all in on the combo! Playsets of everything except viscera (just 3 copies). It's not that the mana combo is super good by itself, it's that it plays really well with the infinite life combo and kind of allows the deck forget the midrange plan.
I think that the bant version falls in the same problem than my brew. It goes 50/50 in the midrange and combo plans, while retreat combo wants to be treated as a secondary plan (see: our deck) and vizier combo wants to be the main plan (see: abzan company). I might be wrong but on paper I don't really like how that deck is built.
I dont get how you all say that Abzan coco is a bad matchup. You don't need to race them, we have enough disruption (maindeck, 4 path 4 queller/collected and some oozes. Post sideboard, staticaster, gaddock teeg, reflector mage, eldritch evolution, negate) and if they don't have the absolute nut draw (Turn 3 kill that caught you without a path) it's really difficult for them to win. Indeed, I recently won vs abzan company (2-1) and the games went like that. The new deck is a bit more difficult to interact with (ooze goes from being a lock piece to just a good card) but every other card that I mentioned continues being really good.
Of course linvala is good, stops half of their deck leaving them little outs. But I think that it's too narrow. I think that teeg is better overall (last time teeg won me the game becuase my opponent was stuck with 3 chord of calling in his hand)
L: Maverick
I agree with this, especially on mtgo where a lot of the "Collected Counters" lists are actually just GW because you can't gain infinite life on mtgo. The infinite mana ability is much easier to manage on MTGO, so it's more popular and also a worse matchup for us than the traditional abzan combo. I lost to a GW infinite mana coco deck in the modern challenge this weekend, and the matchup seemed real hard because scooze does basically nothing aside from stopping eternal witness. You gotta pray for paths to stop the infinite mana. Eidolon of Rhetoric actually won me a game because they made infinite mana, but couldn't play the rest of their combo. I was able to break it up with a path, and then win that game. I think a phyrexian revoker could go a long way, especially with a eldritch evolution in the board.
On the play, t1 dork into t2 knight is a very strong opening and enables you to just hold up quellers or other disruption. Without a turn 1 dork, you can still keep up with t3 spell queller.
If you're on the draw, you really have to mulligan aggressively for t1 dork into queller OR t2 gaddock. Hands without a turn 1 dork into queller / t2 gaddock but with a path are still acceptable. If you're unable to get any of these you're screwed unless their hand is horrible.
I've been on the new Abzan combo and this is pretty accurate. If you guys can hold up path and Spell Queller, its pretty smooth sailing. However, if we can get the combo going before you can get Spell Queller live, it's a rough go for Knightfall.
I've found this matchup very strongly favors who is on the play G1.
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
2 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Noble Hierarch
3 Reflector Mage
1 Rhonas the Indomitable
4 Spell Queller
4 Vizier of Remedies
Non-Dudes
3 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
3 Izzet Staticaster
4 Meddling Mage
3 Path to Exile
1 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Tireless Tracker
Kelvin Chew (Hyper) running a mash up of Knightfall and Vizier Druid. Talk about a spicy list. I kind of feel like this will end up being the worst of both worlds (aside from running Queller in Vizier Druid, which seems great) since the Vizier deck combos so well and the Knightfall combo really is an afterthought. Gives you much better post-board games against fair decks than Vizier Druid and better G1s than Knightfall.
It's pretty good; but generally worst of both versions. It's cool, and fun, but not the most competitive shell.
I can lend you as long as I get them back as some mtgo players can be shifty which do get reported.
You need 1 Rhonas the Indomitable and 4 Devoted Druid as per Hyper's list above?
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
Twitch.tv/jetpack_blues
We'll stream a friendly league with bant vizier just to see how it plays and then some comp leagues with both decks (traditional and vizier) over the next 2 days. So grateful for public holidays.
I'll also save videos on the stream for people to watch back over the next month.
Same deal as always, come hang out, tell me cards you wanna test and lets have a blast
I think I learnt alot over that, Firstly that I dont like this initial build of devotion to coralhelm. (ill go over why another time)
Id like to apologise for the lengthy discussion about concessions, one of the viewers had a great point about changing my line because of it being mtgo and that shouldnt make me change the way I play. which I think is correct, I shouldnt be taking sub optimal lines because modo.
But I would also like to defend not conceeding to "infinite life" as my opponent wasnt killing me with it.
I hope that something like that doesnt put off future viewers and that you guys that did join enjoyed the rest of the content.
Discussing openers is very interesting to me.
I thought what would reid duke do in that situation and he wouldnt conceede either. so thats how its gonna be.
Negate seems great in the vizier company matchup, was very impressed with that, good shout.
Ill be streaming again tomorrow. hopefully without the drama.
I honestly don't share your negative outlook on the Knightfall/Vizier mash-up you were playing. I think it has legs with a few tweaks. The second match against UW looked winnable (if slightly worse than traditional Knightfall), and I think the match against Green Devotion could have gone differently with a Ghost Quarter in the list (though note this is probably a bad match-up for traditional Knightfall in general. We don't care though because Green Devotion is probably a tier 3 deck at best!)
I also don't know about more Birds over Nobles; I feel Noble is probably the best card in the deck. I say that with the full knowledge that fewer birds would make having Red for Wolf Run more awkward, but the Exalted is just so powerful. Overall threatening the combo seems pretty powerful. I wouldn't give up on the build yet.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
The affinity matchup even with triple staticaster felt bad. And again I lost a game due to not having a ghost quarter. So thats now in the list.
Agreed on the uw match, that was 100% winnable if i hadnt played so loose. I guess my attitude towards playing in the friendly leagues is a bit washy.
back online later today.
I feel like the thing that the new abzan vizier deck does well is overloading a creature deck with combo pieces. Previously, abzan coco had a secondary beatdown plan but it was really mediocre. Now it just has 4 more combo pieces. When AKH released I made some brews with vizier and I was still in the old mentality of having a secondary beatdown plan, so I didn't play the full set of druids and trimmed some copies of viscera seer. But the succesful lists are all in on the combo! Playsets of everything except viscera (just 3 copies). It's not that the mana combo is super good by itself, it's that it plays really well with the infinite life combo and kind of allows the deck forget the midrange plan.
I think that the bant version falls in the same problem than my brew. It goes 50/50 in the midrange and combo plans, while retreat combo wants to be treated as a secondary plan (see: our deck) and vizier combo wants to be the main plan (see: abzan company). I might be wrong but on paper I don't really like how that deck is built.
L: Maverick