Hey Jetpack Blues/skuttlespike. I watched the vod of your twitch stream today. I really liked it! Please keep streaming. Your commentary was excellent. Your style is very relaxed and informative. I will watch you whenever i can. Keep up the good work!
I'm playing with sideboard slots right now because I'm just kinda dissatisfied with it, and I've been throwing around the idea of jamming a Fiery Justice or two. Obviously it isn't an easy card to cast, and it only wants to come in if retreats are coming out, but I kinda like the upside anyway. With tron as the only real exception, it straight up kills every creature or planeswalker I can think of shy of opposing knights and sometimes tarmogoyf, as well as putting in solid work against elves, affinity, and eldrazi. I particularly like that fiery justice can kill a 10/10 death's shadow and that it can hit eldrazi's mana dorks as well as their big creatures effectively. What do we think about bringing the justice, worth the risk?
Hey, another new player to the thread. Been playing the deck for a couple months off and on though, and it's by far my favorite deck at the moment. This thread is great guys, and shoutouts to shuttlespike ofc.
I would always stay on 4 counters in the sb, as they are helpful against a plethora of decks. Alliance is a bomb in the current meta, Staticaster is also a cornerstone of the deck's sb. I haven't tested Evolution, so I can't give you information about this one. I would say it depends on your meta, but you could try cutting either 1 Reflector Mage, the GQ or the Rec Sage.
edit: assuming you face an unknown meta, I would cut the Rec Sage.
I'm surprised to see 2x Unified Will persisting. According to MalkoMan's spreadsheet, Unified Will is brought in against only 1 deck that Negate is not, meaning Negate suffices in place of Unified Will in every case but one. Further, Negate is brought in against more decks than Unified Will. Between Negate overlapping almost all of Unified Will's applications and Negate having more applications than Unified Will, it seems pretty intuitive to me to cut both Unified Will for 2 more Negate or for 1 Negate and 1 of something else.
Does somebody have a perspective on Unified Will that I'm missing? Does the anti-creature power of Negate vs Eldrazi Tron really elevate Unified Will over more Negates?
I posted about this a while ago, but I think one of the counterspells in the sideboard should definitely be a Disdainful Stroke. It is great against the big mana decks, and it can both creature and noncreature spells. I don't know whether it's better to run 2 Unified Will, 1 Negate, and 1 Disdainful Stroke, or 1/2/1 with the 2-of being Negate.
I posted about this a while ago, but I think one of the counterspells in the sideboard should definitely be a Disdainful Stroke. It is great against the big mana decks, and it can both creature and noncreature spells. I don't know whether it's better to run 2 Unified Will, 1 Negate, and 1 Disdainful Stroke, or 1/2/1 with the 2-of being Negate.
I don't quite buy this. Against Tron specifically, sure Disdainful Stroke is great, but against a broad field? Can you elaborate on why it warrants a slot?
People have made effective arguments against cutting Unified Will by citing important creatures that Unified Will counters; specifically Wurmcoil, Ulamog, and Primeval Titan. All of those are hit by Disdainful Stroke, which also hits Karn, Ugin, Collected Company, Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, Scapeshift, Cryptic Command, and more.
HOWEVER
almost all of those non-creatures that Disdainful Stroke hits are in matchups where the opponent doesn't play many creatures, hence Unified Will would be reliable and effective. Thus, I think we can officially rule out Disdainful Stroke. I'm still not convinced that the split of 3 Negate/1 Unified Will wouldn't be better due to the rise of Vizier combo (need to reliably stop their Chords and Collected Companys), but only time and testing will tell.
I've been playing with Disdainful Stroke and have been much happier with the results than Unified Will. I prefer knowing exactly what I am going to get out of my counter when I board it in, and I think it works in all of the situations we'd want Unified Will for. With the rise of Vizier Combo, it hits both CoCo and Chords for 2 (since cmc is 5).
I also wanted to find out if anyone had an updated non-combo list they are happy with? I saw one that was running 3 Geist of Saint Traft a few pages back. I'd like to test a straight aggro approach using Hierarch and undercosted fatties going wide.
Joinning the Unified Will/Disdainful Stroke discussion, I was running 2 Negate/2Disdainful for awhile in Knightfall, and in Bant Eldrazi before that. I did that because most spells you want to counter are 4cmc+ like anything from tron, and PrimeTime/Scapeshift just like people are mentioning. One reason I switched over to 2 Unified Will is because Disdainful Stroke doesn't counter Living End, which has caught an uptick on MTGO lately with the new additions from Amonkhet. It's not a great matchup for us, and the Unified Will over Disdain Stroke for me is a hedge in that matchup specifically. Another argument for Unified Will over Disdainful stroke is being able to counter anger of the gods, which can sometimes just be a blowout. So currently I like Unified Will over Disdainful Stroke, but once people stop playing Living End again, I might switch it back.
Also, went up to 23 lands with 7 dorks after getting stuck on 2 and 3 lands all the time, and it feels SOOOOO much better.
Has anyone tried declaration in stone in the board? Seems good if you're looking for extra removal and don't like blessed alliance. Particularly for storm.
Also, maybe I'm getting the wrong side of variance, but reflector mage has been wildly underwhelming every time I've drawn it. Out of 6 or 7 times I've drawn it, it's been valuable maybe once. And these are vs matchups this thread says you bring them in for.
Unified will is better than disdainful stroke almost every time, with the exception of the devoted druid matchup. And even there I don't think that disdainful is that great (it's like having negate vs abzan company and they go T1 viscera T2 melira T3 kitchen)
I think that blessed alliance is a great card in the board, but now that the meta is slower (compared to the one pre probe ban) it's not as necessary. Anyway, in midrange decks, combat tricks are great and I value playable combat tricks really high. Cards like blessed alliance or dromoka's command have such a high ceiling in the right decks that I think it's worth running some.
I think that we should be careful when cutting cards "because we have a good matchup". Sometimes those cards are the ones that give us that percentage points, and I think that not having blessed alliance vs bant eldrazi (for example) hurts a lot.
Hi thread, I just picked up the deck today, coming off Bant Spirits, had a chance to jam a few games against some friends; deck felt great against Mardu Shadow and Eternal Command, not so great against Grixis Delver.
I'm playing a bit of an irregularity build Withs Vizier of the Menagerie and a Nissa, Steward of Elements in the main, they both did felt good, despite making CoCo worse.
Looking forward to hearing about more sweet tech, loved Jetpack/SKuttlespike's stream btw, keep up the good work mate.
I think the deck evolves into something with more aggressive and tempo oriented design if we include large numbers of Tireless Trackers and Lotus Cobra. It's changed the deck entirely for me. Tie this together with Knight of the Reliquary and you're winning on the board and in SHEER card advantage (Fetchlands turn into free 2 mana divinations; if you have 2 lotus Cobra it's free divinations). with disruption like Spell Queller, Vendilion Clique, utility creatures, and counter-spells/path you can shut down your opponent and this is all thanks to the excess mana from lotus Cobra and the obnoxious gas in tireless Tracker. Even without these synergies the cards are all fabulous on their own. Im pretty optimistic about lotus Cobra changing the entire deck and my testing has been pretty positive. Any thoughts?
hey gang, sorry been afk for a couple weeks. Life gets in the way, and then i pissed away loads of tix thinking i could beat baral in duel commander. turns out that decks obnoxiously good and I wasted alot of time/money playing against it
Trying to get some new equipment sorted so I can stream more often. Its really great to see such positive reactions and support for the little content i did make, especially seeing as though it went so badly So thanks for that!
Im interesteed in your list @bento
I kind of want to try and make some kind of bant vizier build with devoted druid, but at the same time i love the deck exactly as it is ^^
todays league didnt go so well.
Storm 2-0
ad naus 2-0
4c humans (olleR) 0-2
Storm (johnnyhotsauce) 1-2 apparently storm plays apostles blessing main now. (though as always shrout was very nice and we spoke about the matchup and his board plan etc)
eldrazi taxes 2-0
I was testing clique today, finally got a copy, it was very very good vs adnauseum, but my hand was so strong g2 i think id have won without it.
The way the deck pressures an opponent is obtaining tempo and getting ahead on board while disrupting your opponent, not necessarily by turning cards sideways. Before, you were either hitting with a giant Knight of the Reliquary or you were hitting with 2 power creatures. Now you essentially have 8 Knight of the Reliquarys because of Tireless Trackers. The problem with Tireless Tracker was that it took quite a bit of time to grow and reap the rewards from. With Lotus Cobra you can grow the Tireless Tracker obnoxiously fast and draw so many cards while developing your board by deploying more creatures by casting or through Collected Company.
Ive currently cut voices because while they're relatively good in most fair decks, they are just annoying rather than powerful and they lack synergy with the rest of the deck. But mostly have been removing and putting back any creature. I'm trying to figure out the new balance of creatures still.
I'm still figuring out the numbers so I don't have a list I want to post yet. I can tell you a good base to start and then trim to your liking is:
Noble Hierarch x 4
Birds of Paradise x 4
Knight of the Reliquary x 4
Spell Queller x 4
Tireless Tracker x 4
Lotus Cobra x 4
Path to Exile x 4
Collected Company x 4
Retreat to Coralhelm x 1
Still in the building process so if you want less Lotus Cobra then by all means go for it but you'll find that it's actually insane with Knight and Tracker.
@MalkoMann, well put on all fronts and I've started to see eidolon as a must have as well. I'm almost mulling putting 2 in the board.
I'm currently at 8 dorks, but honestly sometimes I'm wondering if running 23 lands is better, especially with the added value of more fetches in the yard, more life from courser, more clues, and less slow play if our dork gets killed on turn one. Anybody do testing with 8 dorks 22 lands vs 7 dorks 23 lands? I see many 5-0 ppl that are on both plans.
I have always considered Abzan Company a pretty poor matchup, they are faster than we are and we only have 4x Path for interaction, in addition to them being a wide creature deck and the board stall favoring them.
I actually really disagree, I think the matchup is favourable, spell queller goes a very long way in these matchups, they have no maindeck removal for it and only a limited amount post board, which is stretced over your knights and ooze. Your fair plan is significantly better than theirs and you have ooze if they go for the finks route.
When playing the fair game, your coursers and knights allow you to outgrind them. You have to be paitent with your removal and only use it when it poses a real threat. If it aint killing you, dont kill it.
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edit: assuming you face an unknown meta, I would cut the Rec Sage.
Does somebody have a perspective on Unified Will that I'm missing? Does the anti-creature power of Negate vs Eldrazi Tron really elevate Unified Will over more Negates?
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
People have made effective arguments against cutting Unified Will by citing important creatures that Unified Will counters; specifically Wurmcoil, Ulamog, and Primeval Titan. All of those are hit by Disdainful Stroke, which also hits Karn, Ugin, Collected Company, Ad Nauseam, Past in Flames, Scapeshift, Cryptic Command, and more.
HOWEVER
almost all of those non-creatures that Disdainful Stroke hits are in matchups where the opponent doesn't play many creatures, hence Unified Will would be reliable and effective. Thus, I think we can officially rule out Disdainful Stroke. I'm still not convinced that the split of 3 Negate/1 Unified Will wouldn't be better due to the rise of Vizier combo (need to reliably stop their Chords and Collected Companys), but only time and testing will tell.
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
I also wanted to find out if anyone had an updated non-combo list they are happy with? I saw one that was running 3 Geist of Saint Traft a few pages back. I'd like to test a straight aggro approach using Hierarch and undercosted fatties going wide.
Thanks!
Also, went up to 23 lands with 7 dorks after getting stuck on 2 and 3 lands all the time, and it feels SOOOOO much better.
Also, maybe I'm getting the wrong side of variance, but reflector mage has been wildly underwhelming every time I've drawn it. Out of 6 or 7 times I've drawn it, it's been valuable maybe once. And these are vs matchups this thread says you bring them in for.
EDH:
RG Xenagos, God of Revels
BUG Sidisi, Brood Tyrant
I think that blessed alliance is a great card in the board, but now that the meta is slower (compared to the one pre probe ban) it's not as necessary. Anyway, in midrange decks, combat tricks are great and I value playable combat tricks really high. Cards like blessed alliance or dromoka's command have such a high ceiling in the right decks that I think it's worth running some.
I think that we should be careful when cutting cards "because we have a good matchup". Sometimes those cards are the ones that give us that percentage points, and I think that not having blessed alliance vs bant eldrazi (for example) hurts a lot.
L: Maverick
I'm playing a bit of an irregularity build Withs Vizier of the Menagerie and a Nissa, Steward of Elements in the main, they both did felt good, despite making CoCo worse.
Looking forward to hearing about more sweet tech, loved Jetpack/SKuttlespike's stream btw, keep up the good work mate.
Trying to get some new equipment sorted so I can stream more often. Its really great to see such positive reactions and support for the little content i did make, especially seeing as though it went so badly
Im interesteed in your list @bento
I kind of want to try and make some kind of bant vizier build with devoted druid, but at the same time i love the deck exactly as it is ^^
todays league didnt go so well.
Storm 2-0
ad naus 2-0
4c humans (olleR) 0-2
Storm (johnnyhotsauce) 1-2 apparently storm plays apostles blessing main now. (though as always shrout was very nice and we spoke about the matchup and his board plan etc)
eldrazi taxes 2-0
I was testing clique today, finally got a copy, it was very very good vs adnauseum, but my hand was so strong g2 i think id have won without it.
Ive currently cut voices because while they're relatively good in most fair decks, they are just annoying rather than powerful and they lack synergy with the rest of the deck. But mostly have been removing and putting back any creature. I'm trying to figure out the new balance of creatures still.
Noble Hierarch x 4
Birds of Paradise x 4
Knight of the Reliquary x 4
Spell Queller x 4
Tireless Tracker x 4
Lotus Cobra x 4
Path to Exile x 4
Collected Company x 4
Retreat to Coralhelm x 1
Still in the building process so if you want less Lotus Cobra then by all means go for it but you'll find that it's actually insane with Knight and Tracker.
I'm currently at 8 dorks, but honestly sometimes I'm wondering if running 23 lands is better, especially with the added value of more fetches in the yard, more life from courser, more clues, and less slow play if our dork gets killed on turn one. Anybody do testing with 8 dorks 22 lands vs 7 dorks 23 lands? I see many 5-0 ppl that are on both plans.
I actually really disagree, I think the matchup is favourable, spell queller goes a very long way in these matchups, they have no maindeck removal for it and only a limited amount post board, which is stretced over your knights and ooze. Your fair plan is significantly better than theirs and you have ooze if they go for the finks route.
When playing the fair game, your coursers and knights allow you to outgrind them. You have to be paitent with your removal and only use it when it poses a real threat. If it aint killing you, dont kill it.