What are we sideboarding Eidolon of Rhetoric for? It is obviously good against Storm and Ad Nauseam specifically, and has some applications against blue control decks (shuts off Snapcaster Mage and doesn't allow them to cast spells from under Queller), but what other decks in the meta do we want it against? I like sideboard cards to be flexible against multiple decks - is it justifiable just because Storm and Ad Nauseam are such poor matchups?
Storm is a really poor matchup. They are so consistent at killing us turn 4 (and often virtually turn 3!!). I lost so many games that I feel Eidolon deserves a slot, if only for that damn deck! And especially in conjuction with Eldritch evolution. I'd say that online i play against storm every 10 rounds on average these days...
However I don't know if Storm would be as represented at a GP as it is on MTGO. But even then, the 1 Eidolon is great against Ad Nauseam, really good against Cheerios and Krark-clan combo (fringe decks i know but we would struggle against them) and also i can see it being useful against Burn and Elves to slow them down but not sure on that one, i will need to test. As you said it has the potential to ruin the day of Snapcaster players too.
Gaddock Teeg could replace Eidolon, it has a lot more application in other match-ups but I feel like the rest of the sideboard is already nicely tuned for the meta anyway. Against Storm Teeg dies in no time while they usually only have 1 card in their 75 that can deal with Eidolon (repeal or echoing truth).
Brian Kibler set the tone for this kind of issue; you want to have your opponents have the answers to your threats, to what you're doing as opposed to having the specific answers to what they're doing. You make it sound like once you play Teeg you're not doing anything for the rest of the game. It's the same reason as to why we play things like stony Silence, worship, or even eidolon of Rhetoric, they better find an answer to these powerful cards or they will have a hard time winning. Teeg is backed up by a myriad of things: spell queller, spellskite, selfless Spirit, scavenging Ooze, a fast clock from Knight or Tracker, counterspells, the ALMIGHTY eidolon, and even Vendilion Clique. How much are they willing to shove all those removal spells and ruin their potency when "going off" just to stop a Teeg if they even see it coming? Again, you make it seem as if you're doing nothing from that point onward.
I understand where you are coming from. When I was against RG Tron I had a t2 Teeg and they managed to DRAW into their SINGLE lightning Bolt. But that's the thing, they have to have it or else they lose. Another contrasting experience is when I was against abzan Company and got a t4 Teeg against him. He watched as I flooded the board with my powerful creatures and he stared at a hand of cocos and a chord.
Also, if storm is such a bad matchup what's wrong with padding yourself with more than just eidolon? A combined effort from Gaddock Teeg, eidolon, counterspells, Company, spell queller and the like have kept me at a positive winrate in the matchup.
Gaddock Teeg is definitely a powerful card I'm not contesting that! I had him in the SB on and off. But for now I am enjoying the raw power of Eidolon against storm.
On a side note, I got destroyed by Bogles yesterday. I think it was only the second time I played against that deck. it is a match-up where blessed alliance would have been crazy good. Oh well, we simply can't have answers to everything I guess! and hopefully Bogles is not played a lot.
There is a lot of control and tron at my tournament place so I'm focusing on value creatures that have a hard time being removed or mess up your overall gameplan. As always, thoughts are appreciated!
I've been messing around with the deck online and I'm going ahead and trying it with the Knight combo in it. I don't have all the lands in it to make the one shot kill because I'd still like to have the go wide strategy with Gavony Township however if I want to change it I might put Temple Garden in place of the Razorverge Thicket or I might cut the Gavony Township. Here is my adjusted list:
I'm looking for some sideboard advice:
What do you sideboard against G/W Vizier combo? How do we disrupt that deck in general? If I understand correctly, if Devoted Druid is already in play, once they cast Vizier, you can't disrupt the mana combo.
What do you sideboard against Death's Shadow?
Which matchups do you bring in Reflector Mage? Eldrazi and Delver/Delve seem obvious, but anything else?
I'll also take some general sideboard advice/criticism. Expanding on, and answering questions in, this little sideboarding guide is encouraged:
I've been contemplating a Linvala in the side as another thing to get with Eldritch Evolution due to the new version of Abzan Company becoming increasingly popular.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Do not bring counters vs bant eldrazi, they play 4 caverns.
Reflector mage is good vs merfolk and death shadow. Good tempo card, which is crucial in those matchups.
Blessed alliance is good vs merfolk too. Izzet staticaster is crucial vs dredge.
Bojuka bog vs dredge and storm.
I really liked linvala when I played with 4 eldritch evolution but its mediocre in a company deck. The new combo seems a little more difficult to interact with since ooze isnt useful anymore but you still have tons of cards for stopping them (path, staticaster, queller, negate and teeg for chord and company, reflector mage). They need to have a really fast start and you need to have a really bad hand to have no interaction (which has happened to me, thats how I lose most of the time vs abzan coco)
Tonight, I went 6-0-1 in two back-to-back tournaments. While there were some sweet moments, my favorite was definitely during game 2 against G/R Ponza. I cast Collected Company after he played an Inferno Titan and hit two Knight of the Reliquarys. Now, Ponza has a fair amount of Land Destruction and I had already fetched a few times, so knight was a 6/6. I swung and he didn't block (his ramp had been Utopia Sprawl this game and not the usual dorks). I cast Blessed Alliance and 20'd him.
At the first tournament, I had also played him and we went into turns. This time, however, I had turn 3 combo in game 1 and game 2 went almost as fast.
Their deck has much more redundancy than ours, and our already limited interaction spells are highly taxed. Trying to go 1-for-1 against them is a losing proposition. Linvala shuts off their engine completely and they only have 4 cards tops in their 75 to remove it. Forcing them into playing the fair game is where we win.
Edit: Just to add, there are a lot of current/former Abzan Company players locally for me, so I'm probably more interested in shoring up this match up than you guys are. YMMV
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I tried her a few times today and she feels strong actually.
Turn 1, birds + lands.
Turn 2, lands + nissa + scry 2 gives a very good curve, i was able to get back from a mull to 4, nissa, bird land path and a scry for a land on top.
Her hitting most of the deck is strong too and when I have a coco in hand I use her scry 2 first to highten the chance of hitting something relevant even tho it might be obvious for my opponent what i'm about to do.
So the deck has definitely been shifting to be more like the "stock" list of Bant after repeatedly playing online. I think I've finally found a deck I'd like to grind for a few weeks at my local tournament after bouncing from deck to deck with no avail. Here is what I've changed it up to:
I noticed some don't have rest in peace in their sideboard. I've been bringing it in against storm. I know they can still cantrip a few rituals off and get a decent size Empty the Warrens, but it stops the grapeshot win condition cold. In these situations I go on the defensive and if I can pump my creatures with Gavony Township so even my dorks can be blocks for the goblins. Obviously, Eidolon of Play Fair is the go to for this situation, however Rest In Peace has been working out for me for Grixis based decks, etc. as well. Thoughts?
I'll be working on getting mistys for my deck as well.
had a short break, come straight back from an 8 hour journey home to go 5-0 this evening.
matchups
GW devoted company 2-1
Mardu control 2-0
BG tron 2-0
WB pox 2-0 (friend from the local game store, who ive been trying to get on bant company, I absolutely destroy him and he can expect some rub ins on wednesday at modern night.)
Bant eldrazi 2-1
No spicy numbers today but have extra hate for storm in my board. Proceed to only play fair(ish) matchups where I think I excel as a player.
EDIT
I will be streaming again tomorrow night sometime, likely around 9pm CET (have my legacy league match at 8pm so streaming moved to 9)
Twitch.tv/jetpack_blues
Storm is a really poor matchup. They are so consistent at killing us turn 4 (and often virtually turn 3!!). I lost so many games that I feel Eidolon deserves a slot, if only for that damn deck! And especially in conjuction with Eldritch evolution. I'd say that online i play against storm every 10 rounds on average these days...
However I don't know if Storm would be as represented at a GP as it is on MTGO. But even then, the 1 Eidolon is great against Ad Nauseam, really good against Cheerios and Krark-clan combo (fringe decks i know but we would struggle against them) and also i can see it being useful against Burn and Elves to slow them down but not sure on that one, i will need to test. As you said it has the potential to ruin the day of Snapcaster players too.
Gaddock Teeg could replace Eidolon, it has a lot more application in other match-ups but I feel like the rest of the sideboard is already nicely tuned for the meta anyway. Against Storm Teeg dies in no time while they usually only have 1 card in their 75 that can deal with Eidolon (repeal or echoing truth).
I understand where you are coming from. When I was against RG Tron I had a t2 Teeg and they managed to DRAW into their SINGLE lightning Bolt. But that's the thing, they have to have it or else they lose. Another contrasting experience is when I was against abzan Company and got a t4 Teeg against him. He watched as I flooded the board with my powerful creatures and he stared at a hand of cocos and a chord.
Also, if storm is such a bad matchup what's wrong with padding yourself with more than just eidolon? A combined effort from Gaddock Teeg, eidolon, counterspells, Company, spell queller and the like have kept me at a positive winrate in the matchup.
On a side note, I got destroyed by Bogles yesterday. I think it was only the second time I played against that deck. it is a match-up where blessed alliance would have been crazy good. Oh well, we simply can't have answers to everything I guess! and hopefully Bogles is not played a lot.
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Spell Queller
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Eternal Witness
2 Fauna Shaman
1 Selfless Spirit
2 Restoration Angel
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
// 22 Land
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Gavony Township
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Reflector Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Dispel
3 Ceremonious Rejection
There is a lot of control and tron at my tournament place so I'm focusing on value creatures that have a hard time being removed or mess up your overall gameplan. As always, thoughts are appreciated!
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
2 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Eternal Witness
// 2 Enchantment
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
// 22 Land
2 Celestial Colonnade
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Razorverge Thicket
2 Gavony Township
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Renegade Rallier
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Dispel
3 Ceremonious Rejection
Thoughts: Qasali Pridemage and Noble Hierarch make Geist of Saint Traft super playable. Gavony Township also helps in this regard. Nothing like attacking with a 5/5 angel in the air.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
What do you sideboard against G/W Vizier combo? How do we disrupt that deck in general? If I understand correctly, if Devoted Druid is already in play, once they cast Vizier, you can't disrupt the mana combo.
What do you sideboard against Death's Shadow?
Which matchups do you bring in Reflector Mage? Eldrazi and Delver/Delve seem obvious, but anything else?
I'll also take some general sideboard advice/criticism. Expanding on, and answering questions in, this little sideboarding guide is encouraged:
1 Unified Will (Same as above, plus Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Vizier combo, Elves?)
1 Ceremonious Rejection (Classic Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron)
2 Reflector Mage (Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Delver/Delve, others?)
2 Blessed Alliance (Burn, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Death's Shadow, others?)
2 Izzet Staticaster (Affinity, Young Pyromancer, Tokens, Elves, Vizier Combo?, Abzan just to hit Lingering Souls?)
2 Stony Silence (Affinity, Classic Tron, maybe Eldrazi Tron?)
1 Worship (Burn, Storm, Bant Eldrazi, Eldrazi Tron, Death's Shadow, others?)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion (Abzan, Jund, blue or white based control decks)
1 Bojuka Bog (Abzan, Jund, Death's Shadow, Snapcaster decks, others?)
Legacy: Strawberry Shortcake, Aggro Loam, DnT+b
Modern: Devoted Karn
Vintage: Survival
Reflector mage is good vs merfolk and death shadow. Good tempo card, which is crucial in those matchups.
Blessed alliance is good vs merfolk too. Izzet staticaster is crucial vs dredge.
Bojuka bog vs dredge and storm.
I really liked linvala when I played with 4 eldritch evolution but its mediocre in a company deck. The new combo seems a little more difficult to interact with since ooze isnt useful anymore but you still have tons of cards for stopping them (path, staticaster, queller, negate and teeg for chord and company, reflector mage). They need to have a really fast start and you need to have a really bad hand to have no interaction (which has happened to me, thats how I lose most of the time vs abzan coco)
L: Maverick
At the first tournament, I had also played him and we went into turns. This time, however, I had turn 3 combo in game 1 and game 2 went almost as fast.
List of key pieces in their deck that Linvala shuts off:
4 devoted druid
3 viscera seer
2-3 duskwatch recruiter
Walking Ballista
Rhonas
Mirror entity
That's at least 10 cards not counting mana dorks.
Their deck has much more redundancy than ours, and our already limited interaction spells are highly taxed. Trying to go 1-for-1 against them is a losing proposition. Linvala shuts off their engine completely and they only have 4 cards tops in their 75 to remove it. Forcing them into playing the fair game is where we win.
Edit: Just to add, there are a lot of current/former Abzan Company players locally for me, so I'm probably more interested in shoring up this match up than you guys are. YMMV
Turn 1, birds + lands.
Turn 2, lands + nissa + scry 2 gives a very good curve, i was able to get back from a mull to 4, nissa, bird land path and a scry for a land on top.
Her hitting most of the deck is strong too and when I have a coco in hand I use her scry 2 first to highten the chance of hitting something relevant even tho it might be obvious for my opponent what i'm about to do.
4 Spell Queller
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Selfless Spirit
// 2 Enchantment
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
// 22 Land
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
2 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Windswept Heath
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Reflector Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Dispel
3 Ceremonious Rejection
I noticed some don't have rest in peace in their sideboard. I've been bringing it in against storm. I know they can still cantrip a few rituals off and get a decent size Empty the Warrens, but it stops the grapeshot win condition cold. In these situations I go on the defensive and if I can pump my creatures with Gavony Township so even my dorks can be blocks for the goblins. Obviously, Eidolon of Play Fair is the go to for this situation, however Rest In Peace has been working out for me for Grixis based decks, etc. as well. Thoughts?
I'll be working on getting mistys for my deck as well.
RGWNaya BurnRGW+++RGWKiki ComboRGW
UGInfectUG+++++++++.++++++++UGMerfolkUG
GGNykthos WaveGG++++++++++GGStompyGG
BRVampiresBR+++++++.+++++++BRGoblinsBR
WGBogglesWG+++++++++++++CRSkred RedCR
UBRGDredgeUBRG++++++++++BB8 RackBB
URWJeskaiURW+++.++UBRGrixis DelverUBR
URStormUR++++++++UWGBant CompanyUWG
WUBRGHumansWUBRG+CCEldrazi TronCC
matchups
GW devoted company 2-1
Mardu control 2-0
BG tron 2-0
WB pox 2-0 (friend from the local game store, who ive been trying to get on bant company, I absolutely destroy him and he can expect some rub ins on wednesday at modern night.)
Bant eldrazi 2-1
No spicy numbers today but have extra hate for storm in my board. Proceed to only play fair(ish) matchups where I think I excel as a player.
EDIT
I will be streaming again tomorrow night sometime, likely around 9pm CET (have my legacy league match at 8pm so streaming moved to 9)
Twitch.tv/jetpack_blues
Likely because it doesnt play well with knight or ooze, both of which are good against most graveyard strategies anyways. :/