I think the Jund/Grixis MU is more about overloading them with just more stuff rather than beating them with a particular card. Tireless Tracker yielding like 2382094809 clues is almost always going to win you the game. Reflector Mage also owns a lot of the threats in Jund. I think a lot of your problems can be fixed with a tighter sideboard in Reflector Mage and Izzet Staticaster (partcularly for Merfolk). I think Stony Silence isn't needed at 2 slots. If you really want it, put it to 1, but if you're only gonna run 1, you might as well play another copy of a good card to imrpove the deck holistically.
I also don't believe in a singleton game plan when the deck doesn't operate on a consistent ability to tutor. It's the same principle on the combo in the deck. "Look at that! I drew my single copy of Chord/Wargate/Eldritch Evolution/Retreat to Coralhelm!" It's not a plan, it's incidental.
I've been playing bant company without the retreats but i'm thinking about giving them another go, what is the consensus number of 3 drops in the deck? I'm currently at 12 (with reflector mage instead of retreat), is that a normal number or are a lot of lists playing 13-14? I was thinking of playing 4 spell queller, 4 knight, 2 retreat, 2 tracker and a courser. I assume we have to up our mana dork count to 8 if i add in more 3 drops.
I agree a singleton game plan isn't great, I just can't see myself cutting another creature or another retreat. 2 is the bare minimum I'll run. I did pick up another elspeth, so I could replace wargate with that. Would you suggest replacing the stony with more qasali pridemages? I had staticaster the past ~10 times I ran into merfolk, but it never actually helped. I'm guessing I just need it with retreat out to maximize its effectiveness?
I've been playing bant company without the retreats but i'm thinking about giving them another go, what is the consensus number of 3 drops in the deck? I'm currently at 12 (with reflector mage instead of retreat), is that a normal number or are a lot of lists playing 13-14? I was thinking of playing 4 spell queller, 4 knight, 2 retreat, 2 tracker and a courser. I assume we have to up our mana dork count to 8 if i add in more 3 drops.
I think you can get away with 7 dorks and 13 3-drops. That's what I'm running currently and it seems to work, probably because Modern isn't as fast right now as it has been in the past. If you're playing 14+ 3-drops I would go up to 8 dorks, but I also wouldn't recommend doing that. 7 dorks seems to be the sweet-spot and the point of diminishing returns IMO. Birds are not nearly as good as Hierarchs and adding an extra bird increases the number of hands without action, bad topdecks and makes Coco less consistent.
I'm currently at 15 creature 3 drops and 1 retreat for a total of 16 3cmc spells but I am also playing 8 dorks. It's much more inviting to play this number of dorks and 3 drops if you are playing tireless Tracker at higher numbers. It also makes your company's much more potent. If you are playing more retreat you must consider your creature lineup a bit more.
I think 8 will always be more important than 7 because your deck is entirely predicated on tempo and 3cmc spells. The difference between this deck and abzan is their deck runs an infinite combo which can be tutored for. They can afford to have less Mana dorks than us cuz they have inevitability. Our deck is fair with a finite combo. Having the highest chances to open knight on turn 2 is our recipe to success; anything else is just mediocre.
I agree a singleton game plan isn't great, I just can't see myself cutting another creature or another retreat. 2 is the bare minimum I'll run. I did pick up another elspeth, so I could replace wargate with that. Would you suggest replacing the stony with more qasali pridemages? I had staticaster the past ~10 times I ran into merfolk, but it never actually helped. I'm guessing I just need it with retreat out to maximize its effectiveness?
I think the answer to your first question is what are you bringing stony Silence in for that another card or combination of cards can't provide you? I certainly like stony Silence vs affinity cuz it's basically reads "find an answer or u win the game" but what's the difference between playing stony Silence on t-2 vs playing izzet Staticaster on t-2 followed up by reflector Mage and a Company into qasali Pridemage or pathing them to oblivion? Spell Queller is amazing vs affinity cuz it acts as a removal spell. All their creatures are 1 toughness so an ambush Queller is essentially a removal spell + counter spell. Ad Nauseam? You could just play gaddock Teeg + qasali Pridemage and like 4-6 counterspells. Lantern? Get a Mana dork out and kessig Wolf Run. Tron? Gaddock Teeg and 4-6 counterspells with a clock. I don't think it's a matter of replacing stony Silence with qasali Pridemage, rather what matchups are you bringing stony Silence in and can you put another card that has more application to other match ups as well as cards that work well together that reach the same outcome.
Izzet Staticaster is excellent with retreat to Coralhelm, but I think the problem is your lack of reflector Mage. Also, the matchup already kinda sucks but blowing up their aethervials are so critical to your success in the match up. One of the biggest reasons why I love 8 mana dorks is that it offers you the highest rate of going from turn 1 to turn 3. This is huge. The entire MU is predicated on who can get on the board first and playing as many mana dorks to dump your hand is a winning line. Blow up their Aether vial, dump your hand and you're away. Once you get them spending Mana you can spell Queller to victory. It also helps to have reflector Mage because it helps get rid of lords or master of waves. It's such a huge tempo swing especially if you blow up Aether vial.
This is why I don't like having singleton set up. Imagine just having 3-4 reflector Mage and just controlling the board with a pseudo removal spell that you can get off Company. That sounds so much better than having a misfit sideboard thats narrow and isn't reliably consistent as you only have 1 method of tutoring rather than having a sideboard synergy with your main deck with general answers that can meld together for any particular situation. I've tried that singleton lifestyle but I think kelvin chew does it best because he keeps it to a bare minimum only having very little dedicated hits and making sure his deck can run smoothly and the tutor is only the icing on top.
I like that board a lot, i go back and forth on that eldritch plan, but it seems to work for most people. I hate adding extra non creature spells post board when needing creatures, but it's also just so versatile in our deck! I think I'll try your board but minus one unified will for bojuka bog- dredge is coming back and i believe that many other graveyard strategies like living end and reanimator are on the rise. I think that card is kind of essential honestly.
I'm currently at 15 creature 3 drops and 1 retreat for a total of 16 3cmc spells but I am also playing 8 dorks. It's much more inviting to play this number of dorks and 3 drops if you are playing tireless Tracker at higher numbers. It also makes your company's much more potent. If you are playing more retreat you must consider your creature lineup a bit more.
I think 8 will always be more important than 7 because your deck is entirely predicated on tempo and 3cmc spells. The difference between this deck and abzan is their deck runs an infinite combo which can be tutored for. They can afford to have less Mana dorks than us cuz they have inevitability. Our deck is fair with a finite combo. Having the highest chances to open knight on turn 2 is our recipe to success; anything else is just mediocre.
I agree that your company hits will be a lot better with more 3 drops. What did you cut to make room for all your 3 drops? Voice of resurgence? Selfless Spirit? I think i like the number 13 or 14. I don't think i want to see a hand of no dorks 3 lands and 4 3 drops or 4 lands and 3 3 drops that i often see already haha. Like i said i'm currently on 8 dorks because the deck feels a lot better when you have a turn 1 dork.
I've recently updated my list but previous iterations were this:
Creatures:
Noble Hierarch x 4
Birds of Paradise x 4
Knight of the Reliquary x 4
Spell Queller x 4
Vendilion Clique x 2
Courser of Kruphix x 2
Tireless Tracker x 3
Voice of Resurgence x 2
Selfless Spirit x 2
Scavenging Ooze x 2
Qasali Pridemage x 2
Something like this. I never really liked retreat only as a call to prepare for particular decks. I either play 1 or none. This allows your company to be more potent as opposed to playing more noncreature spells.
Honestly, a hand with no mana dork with 2-mana bears that aren't game winning (they are support creatures) is just as equally (in some cases worse) bad a hand full of 3-drops. Pick your poison I guess.
I've been having this idea where we go all in on the eldritch Evolution game plan in the sideboard with 4 in the side with a bunch of hate. Any thoughts?
I've been having this idea where we go all in on the eldritch Evolution game plan in the sideboard with 4 in the side with a bunch of hate. Any thoughts?
The problem with that for me is- 1) you can't hit off company, even if it is 'every creature in our deck' 2) sideboard is really tight already- are you dropping counters? reflector mage? stony? 3) its sorcery speed, a little slow and plus 4) vs removal heavy decks it could have no sac targets. I'm certainly not an expert but that would scare me for those reasons. I currently don't feel like i need it, but i understand why most ppl in here have it.
I tested New Nissa on Cockatrice (dropped 2 creatures for 2 of her, running 2 Retreats since that's the most popular number in MTGO results) and she's splendid. She can cheat out any creature or land in this deck with her +0 on 3 loyalty, you can try her +0 luck on 2 loyalty in emergency cases and most likely get something, she has great synergy with Courser of Kruphix, we can cast her on Turn 2 against no-Bolt decks (with a mana dork), and I've used her ult once in testing already. Getting a free creature once a turn for turns straight is just as powerful as it sounds.
I haven't gotten a chance to test Nissa, but I have a question about the manabase. Why does the deck have 9 fetchlands but only 8 fetchable lands? I run more shocks than most people (instead of Botanical Sanctum) because if I'm comboing I want to get as many lands as possible. Also, if you have fetches but no plains/forests left you can't use them to search up the utility lands (even though you crack them just to buff knight). See my lands below (optimal lists probably should run Wooded Foothills over Flooded Strands, but these are the ones I own):
I've been having this idea where we go all in on the eldritch Evolution game plan in the sideboard with 4 in the side with a bunch of hate. Any thoughts?
I've played knightfall with evolution instead of collected for a lot of time and in the end it's not worth it. Having 1 in the SB is okay, but going full set on them is probably not a good idea. I used the card most of the time to fetch knights or sigarda, and maybe 10% of the time to search specific hate cards. Collected is just a better card, and as dreadnaught said, SB is already tight, there's no place for 3 more cards.
@Lectrys maybe I'm wrong because nissa is a tough card to evaluate (as the only walker with x in its mana cost) but can't see how she's good here. Yes, cheating creatures is cool, but to be worth all of this things need to happen:
a) nissa is at 3+ loyalty (all the worthy creatures are at 3cmc)
b) nissa survives several turns (cheating less than 2 creatures before she dies is just a worse, sorcery speed, less deep collected)
c) you have ways to scry (courser/retreat)
To me, it's too many hoops to jump for a non collected company hit. It just seems like a worse tamiyo (and tamiyo sees zero play in this deck). Maybe lots of lists start playing nissa and I have to eat my words but I wouldn't be too optimistic about her...
Why would you bring it in vs. Heavy removal decks? Why would you bring it in if you saw your opponent play remand? Fair decks are what the whole main deck and some sideboard pieces are meant to combat. Eldritch Evolution is meant for a solid means of beating unfair decks like Tron or scapeshift or even ad Nauseam.
Stony Silence has always been a poor sideboard mindset in these kinds of decks because you have no way of ever digging for them and your praying you open it with your starting hand.
I've been having this idea where we go all in on the eldritch Evolution game plan in the sideboard with 4 in the side with a bunch of hate. Any thoughts?
I've played knightfall with evolution instead of collected for a lot of time and in the end it's not worth it. Having 1 in the SB is okay, but going full set on them is probably not a good idea. I used the card most of the time to fetch knights or sigarda, and maybe 10% of the time to search specific hate cards. Collected is just a better card, and as dreadnaught said, SB is already tight, there's no place for 3 more cards.
@Lectrys maybe I'm wrong because nissa is a tough card to evaluate (as the only walker with x in its mana cost) but can't see how she's good here. Yes, cheating creatures is cool, but to be worth all of this things need to happen:
a) nissa is at 3+ loyalty (all the worthy creatures are at 3cmc)
b) nissa survives several turns (cheating less than 2 creatures before she dies is just a worse, sorcery speed, less deep collected)
c) you have ways to scry (courser/retreat)
To me, it's too many hoops to jump for a non collected company hit. It just seems like a worse tamiyo (and tamiyo sees zero play in this deck). Maybe lots of lists start playing nissa and I have to eat my words but I wouldn't be too optimistic about her...
It's very easy to get Nissa, Steward of Elements to 3 loyalty--just play her for 3 mana (X = 1), then +2 her immediately. I'm more comfortable playing her for 4 mana, then +2'ing immediately so she dodges Bolt.
I'll need to do some more tests to see how often she and Courser(/Retreat) end up together, but this deck protects her very well, so the biggest thing she has to worry about is Abrupt Decay.
I already said I ditched 2 creatures to test her--I won't ditch any of my 4 Collected Company for her.
New planeswalkers are always flashy and so people try them. For example, we saw Kassis play Gideon, Ally of Zendikar at Unified Modern.
However, in terms of Nissa, Steward of Elements, the question isn't, "Does she fit into Knightfall?". Obviously, she hits over 80% of the deck with her +0 at 3 loyalty. Simply said, she will be good in this deck. Thereby, the real questions are, "What role does she play in the deck and does she play that role better than what already plays that role?"
Nissa, Steward of Elements does not play the role of disruption, does not gain life or do anything to stall the game, and does not seem to speed up our clock in any meaningful way. I would say that all she does is help us grind. Thereby, I would argue that the answer to the first question is that she grinds.
The second question, on the other hand, is vastly more complex. If we look at our deck, the cards whose main purpose is to grind would be Gavony Township, Courser of Kruphix, and Tireless Tracker. Obviously, Gavony Township is worth its weight in gold and won't be replaced (enough said). As to if Nissa is better than Tracker or Courser, the answer to that is unknown right now. However, I have no intention of trying Nissa anytime soon. Nissa seems incredibly sub-par against aggro while Courser is quite strong there. As aggro decks are at least a third of the field, I can't imagine replacing Courser with a card that wouldn't help me beat them. On the other hand, Nissa and Tracker feel quite similar in power level and role. That said, Tracker is a creature. This means I can get it off Collected Company and it can attack/block.
I also don't believe in a singleton game plan when the deck doesn't operate on a consistent ability to tutor. It's the same principle on the combo in the deck. "Look at that! I drew my single copy of Chord/Wargate/Eldritch Evolution/Retreat to Coralhelm!" It's not a plan, it's incidental.
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG
I think you can get away with 7 dorks and 13 3-drops. That's what I'm running currently and it seems to work, probably because Modern isn't as fast right now as it has been in the past. If you're playing 14+ 3-drops I would go up to 8 dorks, but I also wouldn't recommend doing that. 7 dorks seems to be the sweet-spot and the point of diminishing returns IMO. Birds are not nearly as good as Hierarchs and adding an extra bird increases the number of hands without action, bad topdecks and makes Coco less consistent.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
I think 8 will always be more important than 7 because your deck is entirely predicated on tempo and 3cmc spells. The difference between this deck and abzan is their deck runs an infinite combo which can be tutored for. They can afford to have less Mana dorks than us cuz they have inevitability. Our deck is fair with a finite combo. Having the highest chances to open knight on turn 2 is our recipe to success; anything else is just mediocre.
I think the answer to your first question is what are you bringing stony Silence in for that another card or combination of cards can't provide you? I certainly like stony Silence vs affinity cuz it's basically reads "find an answer or u win the game" but what's the difference between playing stony Silence on t-2 vs playing izzet Staticaster on t-2 followed up by reflector Mage and a Company into qasali Pridemage or pathing them to oblivion? Spell Queller is amazing vs affinity cuz it acts as a removal spell. All their creatures are 1 toughness so an ambush Queller is essentially a removal spell + counter spell. Ad Nauseam? You could just play gaddock Teeg + qasali Pridemage and like 4-6 counterspells. Lantern? Get a Mana dork out and kessig Wolf Run. Tron? Gaddock Teeg and 4-6 counterspells with a clock. I don't think it's a matter of replacing stony Silence with qasali Pridemage, rather what matchups are you bringing stony Silence in and can you put another card that has more application to other match ups as well as cards that work well together that reach the same outcome.
Izzet Staticaster is excellent with retreat to Coralhelm, but I think the problem is your lack of reflector Mage. Also, the matchup already kinda sucks but blowing up their aethervials are so critical to your success in the match up. One of the biggest reasons why I love 8 mana dorks is that it offers you the highest rate of going from turn 1 to turn 3. This is huge. The entire MU is predicated on who can get on the board first and playing as many mana dorks to dump your hand is a winning line. Blow up their Aether vial, dump your hand and you're away. Once you get them spending Mana you can spell Queller to victory. It also helps to have reflector Mage because it helps get rid of lords or master of waves. It's such a huge tempo swing especially if you blow up Aether vial.
This is why I don't like having singleton set up. Imagine just having 3-4 reflector Mage and just controlling the board with a pseudo removal spell that you can get off Company. That sounds so much better than having a misfit sideboard thats narrow and isn't reliably consistent as you only have 1 method of tutoring rather than having a sideboard synergy with your main deck with general answers that can meld together for any particular situation. I've tried that singleton lifestyle but I think kelvin chew does it best because he keeps it to a bare minimum only having very little dedicated hits and making sure his deck can run smoothly and the tutor is only the icing on top.
I agree that your company hits will be a lot better with more 3 drops. What did you cut to make room for all your 3 drops? Voice of resurgence? Selfless Spirit? I think i like the number 13 or 14. I don't think i want to see a hand of no dorks 3 lands and 4 3 drops or 4 lands and 3 3 drops that i often see already haha. Like i said i'm currently on 8 dorks because the deck feels a lot better when you have a turn 1 dork.
Creatures:
Noble Hierarch x 4
Birds of Paradise x 4
Knight of the Reliquary x 4
Spell Queller x 4
Vendilion Clique x 2
Courser of Kruphix x 2
Tireless Tracker x 3
Voice of Resurgence x 2
Selfless Spirit x 2
Scavenging Ooze x 2
Qasali Pridemage x 2
Something like this. I never really liked retreat only as a call to prepare for particular decks. I either play 1 or none. This allows your company to be more potent as opposed to playing more noncreature spells.
Honestly, a hand with no mana dork with 2-mana bears that aren't game winning (they are support creatures) is just as equally (in some cases worse) bad a hand full of 3-drops. Pick your poison I guess.
The problem with that for me is- 1) you can't hit off company, even if it is 'every creature in our deck' 2) sideboard is really tight already- are you dropping counters? reflector mage? stony? 3) its sorcery speed, a little slow and plus 4) vs removal heavy decks it could have no sac targets. I'm certainly not an expert but that would scare me for those reasons. I currently don't feel like i need it, but i understand why most ppl in here have it.
1x Wooded Foothills
3x Flooded Strand
1x Stomping Ground
3x Temple Garden
2x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Forest
1x Plains
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Kessig Wolf Run
Additional fetches raise the chance of having a bolt proof KOTR on 2-3.
I've played knightfall with evolution instead of collected for a lot of time and in the end it's not worth it. Having 1 in the SB is okay, but going full set on them is probably not a good idea. I used the card most of the time to fetch knights or sigarda, and maybe 10% of the time to search specific hate cards. Collected is just a better card, and as dreadnaught said, SB is already tight, there's no place for 3 more cards.
@Lectrys maybe I'm wrong because nissa is a tough card to evaluate (as the only walker with x in its mana cost) but can't see how she's good here. Yes, cheating creatures is cool, but to be worth all of this things need to happen:
a) nissa is at 3+ loyalty (all the worthy creatures are at 3cmc)
b) nissa survives several turns (cheating less than 2 creatures before she dies is just a worse, sorcery speed, less deep collected)
c) you have ways to scry (courser/retreat)
To me, it's too many hoops to jump for a non collected company hit. It just seems like a worse tamiyo (and tamiyo sees zero play in this deck). Maybe lots of lists start playing nissa and I have to eat my words but I wouldn't be too optimistic about her...
L: Maverick
Stony Silence has always been a poor sideboard mindset in these kinds of decks because you have no way of ever digging for them and your praying you open it with your starting hand.
It's very easy to get Nissa, Steward of Elements to 3 loyalty--just play her for 3 mana (X = 1), then +2 her immediately. I'm more comfortable playing her for 4 mana, then +2'ing immediately so she dodges Bolt.
I'll need to do some more tests to see how often she and Courser(/Retreat) end up together, but this deck protects her very well, so the biggest thing she has to worry about is Abrupt Decay.
I already said I ditched 2 creatures to test her--I won't ditch any of my 4 Collected Company for her.
However, in terms of Nissa, Steward of Elements, the question isn't, "Does she fit into Knightfall?". Obviously, she hits over 80% of the deck with her +0 at 3 loyalty. Simply said, she will be good in this deck. Thereby, the real questions are, "What role does she play in the deck and does she play that role better than what already plays that role?"
Nissa, Steward of Elements does not play the role of disruption, does not gain life or do anything to stall the game, and does not seem to speed up our clock in any meaningful way. I would say that all she does is help us grind. Thereby, I would argue that the answer to the first question is that she grinds.
The second question, on the other hand, is vastly more complex. If we look at our deck, the cards whose main purpose is to grind would be Gavony Township, Courser of Kruphix, and Tireless Tracker. Obviously, Gavony Township is worth its weight in gold and won't be replaced (enough said). As to if Nissa is better than Tracker or Courser, the answer to that is unknown right now. However, I have no intention of trying Nissa anytime soon. Nissa seems incredibly sub-par against aggro while Courser is quite strong there. As aggro decks are at least a third of the field, I can't imagine replacing Courser with a card that wouldn't help me beat them. On the other hand, Nissa and Tracker feel quite similar in power level and role. That said, Tracker is a creature. This means I can get it off Collected Company and it can attack/block.