Hey gents, my thread search didn't give me any hard result on this:
How bad does one hurt himself by running a playset of Wooded Foothills instead of Misty Rainforests in this deck? Obviously due to card availability and/or unlimited money having not happened yet.
Thank you!
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
@silverironman
What do you think of running Disdainful Stroke instead of 1 (or even both) Negate? The CMC requirement covers everything Queller doesn't, and hits all card types. The only things it doesn't stop are counterspells and burn.
I'll try it out for sure, it does hit everything queller doesn't, however, It is really only good against tron and scapeshift. Problem is Unified Will is bettet
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You lose out on fetching Hallowed Fountain w/ 4 of 9 fetches which can lead to a more painful mana base from time to time, but that's about it. You may want to tinker with different splits of Foothills/Flooded Strand. Strand misses out on fetching basic forest though which is pretty important.
Just a heads up though for future reference, primer/deck discussion threads here aren't typically used for the discussion of budget options.
Hey gents, my thread search didn't give me any hard result on this:
How bad does one hurt himself by running a playset of Wooded Foothills instead of Misty Rainforests in this deck? Obviously due to card availability and/or unlimited money having not happened yet.
Thank you!
You can run 3 Foothills and 2 Flooded Strand, and Sacred Foundry instead of Stomping Ground so all your fetches can get red mana.
It's not ideal but I did it before getting my playset of Mistys. It works fine and I don't think I ever dropped a game because of it, albeit in a small sample size. It definitely has an impact on your win%, but we're talking maybe 2% or so at most.
Hey gents, my thread search didn't give me any hard result on this:
How bad does one hurt himself by running a playset of Wooded Foothills instead of Misty Rainforests in this deck? Obviously due to card availability and/or unlimited money having not happened yet.
Thank you!
You can run 3 Foothills and 2 Flooded Strand, and Sacred Foundry instead of Stomping Ground so all your fetches can get red mana.
It's not ideal but I did it before getting my playset of Mistys. It works fine and I don't think I ever dropped a game because of it, albeit in a small sample size. It definitely has an impact on your win%, but we're talking maybe 2% or so at most.
I actually found that playing Misty Rainforest isn't even REQUIRED. I am currently playing:
Windswept Heath x 4
Misty Rainforest x 4
Flooded Strand x 2
Breeding Pool x 2
Temple Garden x 1
Sacred Foundry x 1
Hallowed Fountain + Stomping Ground is actually a liability because your Fetchland + Shockland sequence is primarily Breeding Pool + Temple Garden to give you the Green necessary to play all your spells, Scavenging Ooze activations, and opening as many dorks as possible. By playing Stomping Ground however, it means you need at least 3 Fetchland + Shockland sequences to get ALL your spells and mana sinks across the 75. I think if you're worried about the damage taken from the fetching, I think it's MORE correct to have Wooded Foothills. Misty is only played if you have them and you want access CONSISTENTLY to more blue mana or you already own them (lol), but if you're not playing Vendilion Clique (even with no island you can still get away with normal mana base or mines because you run 8 mana dorks for blue) then there's virtually no difference between Wooded Foothills and Misty Rainforest.
I think I'm going to drop my fourth Path to Exile for one of the removal creatures just to get my creature count up a tad. does anyone have opinions on Reflector Mage versus Fiend Hunter versus Fairgrounds Warden? I have personally never been a big fan of Reflector Mage as a card, but I see a ton of people running it in knightfall.
On the issue of fetches, it's a much bigger deal to not have misty if you run basic island. Most lists don't and so it doesn't matter, but if you do then misty is far superior to foothills. I don't think you can cover the difference with any other combination of fetches either, since fetching forests is just so important.
I think I'm going to drop my fourth Path to Exile for one of the removal creatures just to get my creature count up a tad. does anyone have opinions on Reflector Mage versus Fiend Hunter versus Fairgrounds Warden? I have personally never been a big fan of Reflector Mage as a card, but I see a ton of people running it in knightfall.
On the issue of fetches, it's a much bigger deal to not have misty if you run basic island. Most lists don't and so it doesn't matter, but if you do then misty is far superior to foothills. I don't think you can cover the difference with any other combination of fetches either, since fetching forests is just so important.
I really, REALLY don't recommend it. If any criticism of our deck is valid it's that we run little removal. Replacing path, one of the most useful removal spells in Modern and one that is extremely well-positioned in this meta full of Tasigur, Eldrazi and Death's Shadows, with Reflector Mage isn't going to fix that. Path is a lifesaver so often that it isn't even worth making a list of situations where it's good. It's one of the premier removal spells for a reason. That said, Reflector Mage is great out of the board. I like running 2 mages and 2 Blessed Alliance to basically go from 4 to 8 removal spells where needed. Most lists are not currently running Reflector in the main, but it wouldn't be crazy to run 1-2 main to effectively up our removal count.
I wound up playing the fourth path and swapping some other stuff around to get the additional creature anyway. I threw the reflector mage in the board instead of some questionable tech. After two heartbreaking games against abzan coco and abzan midrange I managed to pull out a win against blue tron and made 9th place in the league, narrowly missing top 8. I think my ability to beat the tron player was wholly due to knowing blue tron very well and from knight being a monster of a card. I think I could have won the first match too if I had played better.
While I did enjoy having a slightly higher creature count, I felt myself really missing the third retreat. I don't know if I just need to get used to fewer retreats or if it's actually worse for me. I definitely think I'm going to re-evaluate my list though.
This article was interesting in talking about both vizier and nissa in modern, I'm going to test with this cards for sure. Also hates on Rhonas which I'm on the fence about. Thoughts from you guys? http://modernnexus.com/comprehensively-reviewing-amonkhet/
This article was interesting in talking about both vizier and nissa in modern, I'm going to test with this cards for sure. Also hates on Rhonas which I'm on the fence about. Thoughts from you guys? http://modernnexus.com/comprehensively-reviewing-amonkhet/
I really like the Vizier, it has decent stats (3/4) that survive bolt, he is decay proof, and requires revolt to be pushed. Top if off with the potential for card advantage and selection makes it hard not to want to try it out.
Peaking at our topcard without giving up information is relevant, and we have plenty of ways to change our top card. Between Fetchlands, Knight, and Clue tokens or even just playing the card, we can manipulate the top of the deck to hopefully dig to the answer or threat that we need.
Flash creatures and Vizier look like they will play very well together. Having a queller or clique on top, and have that card immune to discard effects is going to feel pretty nice. There aren't very many fateseal effects in modern, and mill isnt exactly a strategy worth worrying about, so the top card is more than likely going to be there until you decide to change it. The commonly played cards that come to mind that would mess with this are Path, and Thought Scour. But our opponent would need to get pretty lucky, or pickup on a tell that we have action on top to make this a successful play.
Like the article mentions, Vizier also fixes our mana for creature spells, and even lets us play through a resolved Blood moon. I'm not sure how often that exact situation will come up, more commonly, it will allow us to play Scavenging Ooze and have more G open to eat up the graveyard, or allow us to keep up a path/queller while still deploying a threat.
Being 4 cmc, and not a CoCo hit is its biggest fault, also being weak to Grafdigger's Cage, an already common SB card against CoCo strategies is a disadvantage. it probably replaces Courser in most lists, and losing that synergy with trackers and the incidental lifegain will probably be felt, especially in burn matchups. To me, It feels like the pros outweigh the cons here, and i'm looking forward to testing it out.
Vizier might see play in this deck, but I'm not super confident about it. Don't think it helps in any matchup where we struggle, and being 4 cmc is horrible (not a coco hit, dies to push). I understand 5 drops being played if they are really good (like wisperwood elemental), but 4 drops are in such a bad spot in this deck...
Rhonas is interesting. Some time ago I tested thassa (the blue theros god) and while the ability was powerful, it wasn't worth the slot. Rhonas activated ability is similar to thassa, slightly less powerful here (decks running vizier/druid combo use it better) but rhonas being a creature is totally possible. It dies to path, like every creature in knightfall, but survives push, bolt, terminate... to name a few. And combat must feel miserable with it. I don't remember ever playing against an indestructible deathtouch creature...
One last comment about rhonas. This is not like theros gods, this ones are creatures, just can't attack nor block. This means that ulvenwald tracker and dromoka's command are insane with rhonas in the battlefield, even if he's not active. Sad thing is that rhonas, if played, will be a 1 of, so the synergies won't come up too often.
So, a very good junk player suggested i try the shadows avacyn out of the board vs B/R type matchups...Anybody ever try her? I get it that 5 is expensive but she seems good in some spots. Definitely spicy lol.
I like that rhonas can activate himself by pumping a dude. Hit him and a qasali off of CoCo eot, then pump qasali and swing for 9. It's just that the 3 cmc slot is SUCH prime real estate, what comes out?
I like that rhonas can activate himself by pumping a dude. Hit him and a qasali off of CoCo eot, then pump qasali and swing for 9. It's just that the 3 cmc slot is SUCH prime real estate, what comes out?
That's really my problem too. I'm running 1-2-1-1 Courser-Tracker-Witness-Clique, so maybe the Eternal Witness should get cut, if anything? I love having it as a one-of though.
Also, Brian DeMars just posted a video of his games playing Knightfall--his inexperience is painful but it's nice that the deck is getting a spotlight. For those who don't want to watch, he went
4-1 against Ad Nauseam, Dredge, Amulet Bloom, and the mirror, despite some serious misplays (like skipping a turn accidentally and then conceding the game.
Someone in the comments suggested running Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion instead of Kessig Wolf Run, which I hadn't considered before. Wolf Run is nice for pumping dorks, and I think trample is better than double strike here, but Sunhome is admittedly more mana efficient per point of power.
I can agree with the idea that Rhonas is a good card, but I have a card time believing it's worth putting a slot in our 3cmc line-up. However, if you really want it in your deck, if you are playing 4 Noble Hierarch and 4 Birds of Paradise, then I suggest taking out a Birds of Paradise for it.
Notes: I don't have a fourth Noble, and I'd still be on the fence on the split. I feel that having the red mana (and black for surgical) is too often important. Now, having a couple more mistys would negate that but both are out of my budget range for a month or two. The Ghostly Prisons are an over-reaction to me never beating merfolk. I knew there would be two or three people playing merfolk, but I would like to at least get a match won against them. Wargate is interesting, I've used it three times: once to get tireless tracker, and twice to get retreat. If I had seen it more often I would say more, but I haven't seen it enough to say whether it's worth it.
It was a GPTQ, 22 people, I went 4-1 then lost in the top 8.
M1: Opponent was 15 minutes late, so even with even players I got a bye.
M2: 8-rack
Game 1 he lands 3 Shrieking Afflictions, Raven's Crime gets there so I lose on turn 5 (he was on the play).
Game 2 I get opening hand of dork, 3 lands, a qasali, and 2 spell quellers. I queller a Liliana of the Veil, a shrieking affliction, and then hit a queller off of collected company on a raven's crime. He does play an ensaring bridge, but without the raven's crime he has 2 lands so I could get there off of 2/x beats.
Game 3 I see a pair of knights of a CoCo and queller another Lili and a raven's crime.
He complained to a lot of people I was cheating because I got 5 quellers in 2 games...
M3: Ponza
List seemed stock, but had the Madcap Experiment and Platinum Emperion combo
Game 1: I get a decent start, but not fast enough. Primal Command gains life and gets a Stormbreath Dragon, with path in my hand, and then I get eaten by a monstrous dargon.
Game 2: I see a good hand, and with courser of kruphix my life never goes below 18. She got manascrewed, and revealed 2 anger of the gods after the game. I see Choke come out turn three, which I had forgotten was a card.
Game 3: She casted Bonfire of the Damned on turn 2 for one to kill my dork, but I had 2 more in hand. I get Teeg out turn 3, she attempts to cast Mwonvuli Acid-Moss before actually reading the card. Teeg saves me from the moss, a primal command, and a (would have been) miracled Bonfire
M4: Eldrazi Tron
Game 1: Both have good starts, I eventually face down a reality smaser with no cards in hand, then topdeck a retreat to win.
Game 2: Side in some grindy cards, grind for a bit, eventually he topdecks a Walking Ballista and casts it for 14(!). Path it, then turn after gets another balista out, this time for 12 since he had to kill my knight that had lethal after exalted pumps. Path that one, and get there a couple turns later.
M5: Jund (regular)
Game 1: Get him down to 3, but had to use queller and then he bolted it at the most inopportune time.
Gamee 2: Out grinded me, partly because I forgot to remove the retreats from my deck.
Ended up 2nd in the top 8.
top 8 M1: Grixis Control
Game 1: see a hand with ghost quarter, 2, and 3 drops. Mulligan to no lands, no lands, then a decent hand albeit 4 cards. Can't grind well enough.
Game 2: Get blown out by Dispel. I thought he may have spell pierce so I had 6 mana when I casted the CoCo, instead get hit by dispel. Notably, He saw 9 different kill spells, with no snapcaster mages. 2 Fatal Push, 3 Dreadbore, 2 Terminate, and 2 Go for the Throat. One dreadbore hit my elspeth, which could have lead me to stabilize against the Tasigur, the Golden Fang on board.
Sadly I had previously never lost to grixis, I thought it was a decent match up. But bad luck can happen.
Does anyone have tips for my sideboard? and for Jund/Grixis, I used to not have a problem but push seems to have overloaded their removal suite to much for my list to grind.
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How bad does one hurt himself by running a playset of Wooded Foothills instead of Misty Rainforests in this deck? Obviously due to card availability and/or unlimited money having not happened yet.
Thank you!
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I'll try it out for sure, it does hit everything queller doesn't, however, It is really only good against tron and scapeshift. Problem is Unified Will is bettet
Just a heads up though for future reference, primer/deck discussion threads here aren't typically used for the discussion of budget options.
You can run 3 Foothills and 2 Flooded Strand, and Sacred Foundry instead of Stomping Ground so all your fetches can get red mana.
It's not ideal but I did it before getting my playset of Mistys. It works fine and I don't think I ever dropped a game because of it, albeit in a small sample size. It definitely has an impact on your win%, but we're talking maybe 2% or so at most.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
I actually found that playing Misty Rainforest isn't even REQUIRED. I am currently playing:
Windswept Heath x 4
Misty Rainforest x 4
Flooded Strand x 2
Breeding Pool x 2
Temple Garden x 1
Sacred Foundry x 1
Hallowed Fountain + Stomping Ground is actually a liability because your Fetchland + Shockland sequence is primarily Breeding Pool + Temple Garden to give you the Green necessary to play all your spells, Scavenging Ooze activations, and opening as many dorks as possible. By playing Stomping Ground however, it means you need at least 3 Fetchland + Shockland sequences to get ALL your spells and mana sinks across the 75. I think if you're worried about the damage taken from the fetching, I think it's MORE correct to have Wooded Foothills. Misty is only played if you have them and you want access CONSISTENTLY to more blue mana or you already own them (lol), but if you're not playing Vendilion Clique (even with no island you can still get away with normal mana base or mines because you run 8 mana dorks for blue) then there's virtually no difference between Wooded Foothills and Misty Rainforest.
On the issue of fetches, it's a much bigger deal to not have misty if you run basic island. Most lists don't and so it doesn't matter, but if you do then misty is far superior to foothills. I don't think you can cover the difference with any other combination of fetches either, since fetching forests is just so important.
I really, REALLY don't recommend it. If any criticism of our deck is valid it's that we run little removal. Replacing path, one of the most useful removal spells in Modern and one that is extremely well-positioned in this meta full of Tasigur, Eldrazi and Death's Shadows, with Reflector Mage isn't going to fix that. Path is a lifesaver so often that it isn't even worth making a list of situations where it's good. It's one of the premier removal spells for a reason. That said, Reflector Mage is great out of the board. I like running 2 mages and 2 Blessed Alliance to basically go from 4 to 8 removal spells where needed. Most lists are not currently running Reflector in the main, but it wouldn't be crazy to run 1-2 main to effectively up our removal count.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
L: Maverick
While I did enjoy having a slightly higher creature count, I felt myself really missing the third retreat. I don't know if I just need to get used to fewer retreats or if it's actually worse for me. I definitely think I'm going to re-evaluate my list though.
I really like the Vizier, it has decent stats (3/4) that survive bolt, he is decay proof, and requires revolt to be pushed. Top if off with the potential for card advantage and selection makes it hard not to want to try it out.
Peaking at our topcard without giving up information is relevant, and we have plenty of ways to change our top card. Between Fetchlands, Knight, and Clue tokens or even just playing the card, we can manipulate the top of the deck to hopefully dig to the answer or threat that we need.
Flash creatures and Vizier look like they will play very well together. Having a queller or clique on top, and have that card immune to discard effects is going to feel pretty nice. There aren't very many fateseal effects in modern, and mill isnt exactly a strategy worth worrying about, so the top card is more than likely going to be there until you decide to change it. The commonly played cards that come to mind that would mess with this are Path, and Thought Scour. But our opponent would need to get pretty lucky, or pickup on a tell that we have action on top to make this a successful play.
Like the article mentions, Vizier also fixes our mana for creature spells, and even lets us play through a resolved Blood moon. I'm not sure how often that exact situation will come up, more commonly, it will allow us to play Scavenging Ooze and have more G open to eat up the graveyard, or allow us to keep up a path/queller while still deploying a threat.
Being 4 cmc, and not a CoCo hit is its biggest fault, also being weak to Grafdigger's Cage, an already common SB card against CoCo strategies is a disadvantage. it probably replaces Courser in most lists, and losing that synergy with trackers and the incidental lifegain will probably be felt, especially in burn matchups. To me, It feels like the pros outweigh the cons here, and i'm looking forward to testing it out.
I'd look to play the vizier over company as a one-of. Just for testing.
Rhonas is interesting. Some time ago I tested thassa (the blue theros god) and while the ability was powerful, it wasn't worth the slot. Rhonas activated ability is similar to thassa, slightly less powerful here (decks running vizier/druid combo use it better) but rhonas being a creature is totally possible. It dies to path, like every creature in knightfall, but survives push, bolt, terminate... to name a few. And combat must feel miserable with it. I don't remember ever playing against an indestructible deathtouch creature...
One last comment about rhonas. This is not like theros gods, this ones are creatures, just can't attack nor block. This means that ulvenwald tracker and dromoka's command are insane with rhonas in the battlefield, even if he's not active. Sad thing is that rhonas, if played, will be a 1 of, so the synergies won't come up too often.
L: Maverick
That's really my problem too. I'm running 1-2-1-1 Courser-Tracker-Witness-Clique, so maybe the Eternal Witness should get cut, if anything? I love having it as a one-of though.
Also, Brian DeMars just posted a video of his games playing Knightfall--his inexperience is painful but it's nice that the deck is getting a spotlight. For those who don't want to watch, he went
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Breeding Pool
2 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Spellskite
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
1 Wargate
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Unified Will
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Ulvenwald Tracker
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Spellskite
1 Courser of Kruphix
Notes: I don't have a fourth Noble, and I'd still be on the fence on the split. I feel that having the red mana (and black for surgical) is too often important. Now, having a couple more mistys would negate that but both are out of my budget range for a month or two. The Ghostly Prisons are an over-reaction to me never beating merfolk. I knew there would be two or three people playing merfolk, but I would like to at least get a match won against them. Wargate is interesting, I've used it three times: once to get tireless tracker, and twice to get retreat. If I had seen it more often I would say more, but I haven't seen it enough to say whether it's worth it.
M1: Opponent was 15 minutes late, so even with even players I got a bye.
M2: 8-rack
Game 1 he lands 3 Shrieking Afflictions, Raven's Crime gets there so I lose on turn 5 (he was on the play).
Game 2 I get opening hand of dork, 3 lands, a qasali, and 2 spell quellers. I queller a Liliana of the Veil, a shrieking affliction, and then hit a queller off of collected company on a raven's crime. He does play an ensaring bridge, but without the raven's crime he has 2 lands so I could get there off of 2/x beats.
Game 3 I see a pair of knights of a CoCo and queller another Lili and a raven's crime.
He complained to a lot of people I was cheating because I got 5 quellers in 2 games...
M3: Ponza
List seemed stock, but had the Madcap Experiment and Platinum Emperion combo
Game 1: I get a decent start, but not fast enough. Primal Command gains life and gets a Stormbreath Dragon, with path in my hand, and then I get eaten by a monstrous dargon.
Game 2: I see a good hand, and with courser of kruphix my life never goes below 18. She got manascrewed, and revealed 2 anger of the gods after the game. I see Choke come out turn three, which I had forgotten was a card.
Game 3: She casted Bonfire of the Damned on turn 2 for one to kill my dork, but I had 2 more in hand. I get Teeg out turn 3, she attempts to cast Mwonvuli Acid-Moss before actually reading the card. Teeg saves me from the moss, a primal command, and a (would have been) miracled Bonfire
M4: Eldrazi Tron
Game 1: Both have good starts, I eventually face down a reality smaser with no cards in hand, then topdeck a retreat to win.
Game 2: Side in some grindy cards, grind for a bit, eventually he topdecks a Walking Ballista and casts it for 14(!). Path it, then turn after gets another balista out, this time for 12 since he had to kill my knight that had lethal after exalted pumps. Path that one, and get there a couple turns later.
M5: Jund (regular)
Game 1: Get him down to 3, but had to use queller and then he bolted it at the most inopportune time.
Gamee 2: Out grinded me, partly because I forgot to remove the retreats from my deck.
Ended up 2nd in the top 8.
top 8 M1: Grixis Control
Game 1: see a hand with ghost quarter, 2, and 3 drops. Mulligan to no lands, no lands, then a decent hand albeit 4 cards. Can't grind well enough.
Game 2: Get blown out by Dispel. I thought he may have spell pierce so I had 6 mana when I casted the CoCo, instead get hit by dispel. Notably, He saw 9 different kill spells, with no snapcaster mages. 2 Fatal Push, 3 Dreadbore, 2 Terminate, and 2 Go for the Throat. One dreadbore hit my elspeth, which could have lead me to stabilize against the Tasigur, the Golden Fang on board.
Sadly I had previously never lost to grixis, I thought it was a decent match up. But bad luck can happen.
Does anyone have tips for my sideboard? and for Jund/Grixis, I used to not have a problem but push seems to have overloaded their removal suite to much for my list to grind.
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Knightfall WURG