I would never play without some copies of retreat. I tested this deck without retreat some months ago and it felt way less powerful. Retreat is what makes knight of the reliquary actually worth running. I mean, knight is good at three things:
Being huge
Tutoring powerful lands
Killing people on T3
This is not legacy, so lands are pretty lame, there's no cradle, wasteland nor karakas to tutor. So, if you cut the possibility of the combo, why run knight? at that point, goyf is just better. Even more, why play bant at all? just go abzan or jund or something.
Plus, retreat is better game one. G1 is usually more aggressive, G23 are more controlled, with more answers on both sides of the table. The retreat plan fits G1 better.
On another topic, how has tireless tracker been playing for you guys?
Tireless Tracker is a good card, especially against grindy decks. Turning extra lands into cards is great, being able to grow itself while doing so is a pretty good bonus. I think not running at least 1 is a mistake. It even sees legacy play in some builds of lands, loam and maverick.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
Tracker has been hot in my testing. It helps break up board stalls (which often happen when we can't stick the combo), it grinds a ton of card advantage, it has incredible synergy with our fetches/Knight/Courser if you run it, and occasionally it's just another huge dude. Or it just eats removal, but play smart and it's always at least a differed 2-for-1, often more. I've been on two plus Courser and I've never looked back.
Granted, my meta is pretty grindy, so 1-2-1 Courser-Tracker-Witness makes a lot of sense to me. If I were going up against spell-based combo or Tron all day, I'd probably run a Clique or two instead for the disruption and shift my mana a bit to compensate.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Tracker has been hot in my testing. It helps break up board stalls (which often happen when we can't stick the combo), it grinds a ton of card advantage, it has incredible synergy with our fetches/Knight/Courser if you run it, and occasionally it's just another huge dude. Or it just eats removal, but play smart and it's always at least a differed 2-for-1, often more. I've been on two plus Courser and I've never looked back.
Granted, my meta is pretty grindy, so 1-2-1 Courser-Tracker-Witness makes a lot of sense to me. If I were going up against spell-based combo or Tron all day, I'd probably run a Clique or two instead for the disruption and shift my mana a bit to compensate.
Not debating that Tracker is great in grindy games, but my own experience has been different with respect to board stalls: I find I'm usually able to push through damage thanks to either a) fliers with exalted b) a huge Knight with Kessig Wolf Run or c) Gavony township breaking board stalls.
Tracker has been hot in my testing. It helps break up board stalls (which often happen when we can't stick the combo), it grinds a ton of card advantage, it has incredible synergy with our fetches/Knight/Courser if you run it, and occasionally it's just another huge dude. Or it just eats removal, but play smart and it's always at least a differed 2-for-1, often more. I've been on two plus Courser and I've never looked back.
Granted, my meta is pretty grindy, so 1-2-1 Courser-Tracker-Witness makes a lot of sense to me. If I were going up against spell-based combo or Tron all day, I'd probably run a Clique or two instead for the disruption and shift my mana a bit to compensate.
Not debating that Tracker is great in grindy games, but my own experience has been different with respect to board stalls: I find I'm usually able to push through damage thanks to either a) fliers with exalted b) a huge Knight with Kessig Wolf Run or c) Gavony township breaking board stalls.
Those things all definitely help too. Every potential stall-breaker is golden in a meta full of GBx and Grixis.
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
Torpf; thank you for the updated primer, it's great. That being said, I don't see why 4 Birds/3 Hierarch is recommended - most lists go 3 Birds 4 Hierarch, and for good reason.
Also, during the next update, I would suggest adding Vendillion Clique, Tireless Tracker, and Reflector Mage.
Tireless Tracker is a good card, especially against grindy decks. Turning extra lands into cards is great, being able to grow itself while doing so is a pretty good bonus. I think not running at least 1 is a mistake. It even sees legacy play in some builds of lands, loam and maverick.
I don't know if I already gave my opinion of tracker@legacy in this thread. Anyway, I think that it's good there but for really different reasons that are making us run it in this deck. Maverick has gaea's cradle to cheat on mana and break many clues at once. Lands has 4 tracker there for the same reason that valakut in modern has obstinate baloth and similar cards in the side: people board out their removal against a creatureless deck so you can bring some threats in, they won't be killed.
In this deck we have a weird mix of both. We kind of ramp (with hierarchs and knight) and we are not creatureless but removal overloaders, so maybe tracker can fit.
I've been testing one tracker lately, but tomorrow I'll play three copies. If it performs well, I'll report it here!
Nice list a page back.
Have you made any updates or tweaks?
How's the giest and clique going for you?
Love the Clique. I'm even considering adding a second one. It's a little hard on the mana but that's why I play a basic Island. The disruption and ability to play at instant speed jive nicely with the rest of the deck. I'm a little more on the fence about Geist. It can be devastating, especially on the play with Hierarch, and has been performing so far, but there are some matchups where it's dead. I'd say it's reasonable to run if you like the card and think it will be well-positioned.
How do we feel about Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in our sideboards? Seems we will be able to power him out turn 3 pretty quickly for the grindy matchups and the fast combo matchups where we will have to win pretty quickly. Thoughts?
How do we feel about Gideon, Ally of Zendikar in our sideboards? Seems we will be able to power him out turn 3 pretty quickly for/ the grindy matchups and the fast combo matchups where we will have to win pretty quickly. Thoughts?
I've been using 2 Elspeth, Knight-Eerrant in the board for that purpose. In my limited testing, it's been great. I suspect given we excel more at being an aggressive beatdown deck than a grindy deck, the pump & jump from Elspeth (as well as rolling her up as she builds our board) eclipses what Gideon would do. But he's a great walker and certainly worth a look!
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WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
@bugunp I completely agree with you on Courser versus Tracker discussion. I think the Kruphix is such a liability in terms of actual CA and just as you mentioned revealing what your game plane is going forward. I too play 2 Tireless Trackers and I think they are great.
@deus837 I am in agreeance with you as well with Vendilion Clique and the basic Island. I run 2 and really enjoy the pressure and disruption it provides. In terms of mana restrictions the games in which you want the Clique there is rarely a threat to your life total so a fetch/shock is not a big concern.
@bugunp I completely agree with you on Courser versus Tracker discussion. I think the Kruphix is such a liability in terms of actual CA and just as you mentioned revealing what your game plane is going forward. I too play 2 Tireless Trackers and I think they are great.
I agree that they're better than Courser, but I think if you're going for 3 or more CA creatures, one Courser is stronger than a third Tracker. The two synergize well, and with CoCo you get both of them out much more often than you'd expect even at such low numbers.
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Elspeth is another option. I hadn't thought about the Knight errant. I thought Gideon's anthem effect might be a little more valuable with the number of dorks we are playing.
My view on adding planeswalkers is: why bother? I's not like our deck is weak to grindy strategies. Collected Company is one of the most powerful cards in the format against those strategies, our fliers tend to be able to get in for damage (except maybe against Lingering Souls), and some of our 2-drops such as Voice and Scooze really thrive in those sorts of games. Not to mention, grindy games tend to come down to an exchange of resources. If, after exchanging 1 for 1, we're left with something like a 7/7 Knight, we're likely to just win. Every Planeswalker you add to your sideboard is one less card you can find with collected company or with Knight tutoring. There are some sideboard cards like this that we need because they fill gaps in our gameplan (i.e.: Stony Silence, counterspells, Blessed Alliance), but I really don't think we need to add cards that dilute our gameplan unless absolutely necessary.
My view on adding planeswalkers is: why bother? I's not like our deck is weak to grindy strategies. Collected Company is one of the most powerful cards in the format against those strategies, our fliers tend to be able to get in for damage (except maybe against Lingering Souls), and some of our 2-drops such as Voice and Scooze really thrive in those sorts of games. Not to mention, grindy games tend to come down to an exchange of resources. If, after exchanging 1 for 1, we're left with something like a 7/7 Knight, we're likely to just win. Every Planeswalker you add to your sideboard is one less card you can find with collected company or with Knight tutoring. There are some sideboard cards like this that we need because they fill gaps in our gameplan (i.e.: Stony Silence, counterspells, Blessed Alliance), but I really don't think we need to add cards that dilute our gameplan unless absolutely necessary.
I'm more concerned about the tron matchup and the other matchups where we need to end the game quickly tbh
Hey, quick question. Yesterday played against esper draw-go and BW eldrazi and taxes and I had some problems in both matchups. What should be our gameplan there? Esper's lategame is brutal and I wasn't able to compete with it (same problem as grixis, I can't beat their card draw and sphinx's revelation is even better than ancestral at doing that) and they run more relevant sweepers (veredict instead of anger). In this kind of matches I miss negate over unified will...
Against death and taxes... really didn't know what to do. Is stony silence good? And staticaster? It's true that staticaster shoots down thalia, selfless and flickerwisp but they should board out thalia anyway.
Tireless tracker was okay (drew lots of cards) but none of them were really relevant. I'm currently thinking about which cards could be good topdecks to draw out of tracker, because that seems to be where my deck/sideboard missed the most. I think that's the rationale behind 6cmc elspeth in the MODO sideboards, something huge that you topdeck and win instantly.
PS: Has someone tested slayer's stonghold in this deck? I'm 99% sure that it isn't good but there is some value in there. I want it mainly because of the haste clause, but +2+0 and vigilance can be relevant too.
Hey, quick question. Yesterday played against esper draw-go and BW eldrazi and taxes and I had some problems in both matchups. What should be our gameplan there? [...]
PS: Has someone tested slayer's stonghold in this deck? I'm 99% sure that it isn't good but there is some value in there. I want it mainly because of the haste clause, but +2+0 and vigilance can be relevant too.
I was debating posting after the last local ~FNM I went to. 2-0-1, beat Tron and Kiki-chord, then tied Esper draw-go.
My list for reference:
A couple edits I'm making are: - 2 Voice, + 2 Geist in main, - 2 Izzet Staticaster, + 2 Voice in the side. (I know my sideboard isn't the best, I'm pretty terrible at sideboarding anyways)
I had lots of trouble with the Esper, my threats didn't stick around long enough or get there quick enough. I'm going to start testing Geist as they're be forced to wipe the board to get rid of him, which I the list I played against only had verdict as a board wipe. I definitely wanted at least one more Tracker, but I don't have one due to budget.
Budget also explains the weird assortment of fetches. I won't mind testing stronghold, but I feel like it would have to take Gavony's place. I'm on the fence about Gavony, it is nice but it's only felt like a win more card to me when Wolf Run would have been just as useful, if not better. Even if I just tied for second, it still was a nice night since it was the first time I beat Tron 2-0. I can try and remember more, or actually write down stuff to make a solid report the next couple of times I play.
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Plus, retreat is better game one. G1 is usually more aggressive, G23 are more controlled, with more answers on both sides of the table. The retreat plan fits G1 better.
On another topic, how has tireless tracker been playing for you guys?
L: Maverick
Granted, my meta is pretty grindy, so 1-2-1 Courser-Tracker-Witness makes a lot of sense to me. If I were going up against spell-based combo or Tron all day, I'd probably run a Clique or two instead for the disruption and shift my mana a bit to compensate.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Not debating that Tracker is great in grindy games, but my own experience has been different with respect to board stalls: I find I'm usually able to push through damage thanks to either a) fliers with exalted b) a huge Knight with Kessig Wolf Run or c) Gavony township breaking board stalls.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Those things all definitely help too. Every potential stall-breaker is golden in a meta full of GBx and Grixis.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Also, during the next update, I would suggest adding Vendillion Clique, Tireless Tracker, and Reflector Mage.
Thanks for your hard work!
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
I don't know if I already gave my opinion of tracker@legacy in this thread. Anyway, I think that it's good there but for really different reasons that are making us run it in this deck. Maverick has gaea's cradle to cheat on mana and break many clues at once. Lands has 4 tracker there for the same reason that valakut in modern has obstinate baloth and similar cards in the side: people board out their removal against a creatureless deck so you can bring some threats in, they won't be killed.
In this deck we have a weird mix of both. We kind of ramp (with hierarchs and knight) and we are not creatureless but removal overloaders, so maybe tracker can fit.
I've been testing one tracker lately, but tomorrow I'll play three copies. If it performs well, I'll report it here!
L: Maverick
Nice list a page back.
Have you made any updates or tweaks?
How's the giest and clique going for you?
Love the Clique. I'm even considering adding a second one. It's a little hard on the mana but that's why I play a basic Island. The disruption and ability to play at instant speed jive nicely with the rest of the deck. I'm a little more on the fence about Geist. It can be devastating, especially on the play with Hierarch, and has been performing so far, but there are some matchups where it's dead. I'd say it's reasonable to run if you like the card and think it will be well-positioned.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
I've been using 2 Elspeth, Knight-Eerrant in the board for that purpose. In my limited testing, it's been great. I suspect given we excel more at being an aggressive beatdown deck than a grindy deck, the pump & jump from Elspeth (as well as rolling her up as she builds our board) eclipses what Gideon would do. But he's a great walker and certainly worth a look!
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
For disclaimer i play 2 of them.
Adding to everything that is said, I would also like to point out that tracker does not reveal the card it draw which is great for bluffing
It also provide some flexibility with your mana, for example if you are holding spell queller and don't want to use it.
Also by cutting spellskite and courser, my opponent goyf have shrunk a little.
@deus837 I am in agreeance with you as well with Vendilion Clique and the basic Island. I run 2 and really enjoy the pressure and disruption it provides. In terms of mana restrictions the games in which you want the Clique there is rarely a threat to your life total so a fetch/shock is not a big concern.
I agree that they're better than Courser, but I think if you're going for 3 or more CA creatures, one Courser is stronger than a third Tracker. The two synergize well, and with CoCo you get both of them out much more often than you'd expect even at such low numbers.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
I'm more concerned about the tron matchup and the other matchups where we need to end the game quickly tbh
Against death and taxes... really didn't know what to do. Is stony silence good? And staticaster? It's true that staticaster shoots down thalia, selfless and flickerwisp but they should board out thalia anyway.
Tireless tracker was okay (drew lots of cards) but none of them were really relevant. I'm currently thinking about which cards could be good topdecks to draw out of tracker, because that seems to be where my deck/sideboard missed the most. I think that's the rationale behind 6cmc elspeth in the MODO sideboards, something huge that you topdeck and win instantly.
List for reference https://deckstats.net/decks/2563/655400-bant-queller-company-v5/en
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
4 Forest
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Instants
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
//Creatures
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
3 Tireless Tracker
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Negate
2 Stony Silence
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Unified Will
1 Worship
PS: Has someone tested slayer's stonghold in this deck? I'm 99% sure that it isn't good but there is some value in there. I want it mainly because of the haste clause, but +2+0 and vigilance can be relevant too.
L: Maverick
I was debating posting after the last local ~FNM I went to. 2-0-1, beat Tron and Kiki-chord, then tied Esper draw-go.
My list for reference:
3 Noble Hierarch
4 Birds of Paradise
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Voice of Resurgence
2 Rhox War Monk
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Spell Queller
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Tireless Tracker
Spells
4 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Collected Company
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Scalding Tarn
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Stony Silence
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Surgical Extraction
A couple edits I'm making are: - 2 Voice, + 2 Geist in main, - 2 Izzet Staticaster, + 2 Voice in the side. (I know my sideboard isn't the best, I'm pretty terrible at sideboarding anyways)
I had lots of trouble with the Esper, my threats didn't stick around long enough or get there quick enough. I'm going to start testing Geist as they're be forced to wipe the board to get rid of him, which I the list I played against only had verdict as a board wipe. I definitely wanted at least one more Tracker, but I don't have one due to budget.
Budget also explains the weird assortment of fetches. I won't mind testing stronghold, but I feel like it would have to take Gavony's place. I'm on the fence about Gavony, it is nice but it's only felt like a win more card to me when Wolf Run would have been just as useful, if not better. Even if I just tied for second, it still was a nice night since it was the first time I beat Tron 2-0. I can try and remember more, or actually write down stuff to make a solid report the next couple of times I play.
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG