The problem with Sunhome is that you can't punch through any chump blockers. What if they have Snapcasters? Manlands? They just chump and your whole combo is gone. You can leave up a Windswept to deal with a potential surprise blocker, but what if they have too many creatures to tap down? There's just so many possibilities of Sunhome not being able to get through. Wolf Run guarantees you get just about everything through to their face, ensuring an almost guaranteed victory once you've combo'd off. And as you've mentioned, Wolf Run is better without combo. It just lets you punch through defenses in so many different instances.
All fair points. I've had the manland situation come up already, and it's a pain to deal with. Against Merfolk especially it's relevant. I just hate the idea of taking 10 or so damage to combo against burn. I haven't done the math, but if Sunhome costs 5 life to deal 20, Kessig must cost a lot more than that...
Someone should figure out how bad it is if you're comboing off turn 3 with Knight, Dork, and Retreat in play, and just two lands (both of which are tapped), only one of which is a forest/plains. That's the bare minimum situation to combo. With Sunhome, I know it's 5 life. With Kessig... more.
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, as I haven't had this situation come up yet, but if they flash in a snapcaster or animate a man land during the declare blockers step, can we not fetch for a land and use the coralhelm trigger to tap it down before they can declare it as a blocker?
Snap's trigger goes on the stack, and you can respond to that. There will be a couple opportunities. They have to get the snappy in play before moving to declare blockers step I think, otherwise it won't be there to block. You'll therefore still be in declare attackers, which you can respond to the snappy trigger or wait for the trigger to resolve at which point you get priority again and can fetch.
AFAIK.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
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Looking at a spreadsheet, assuming Forest Plains in and tapped, Knight Untapped, Retreat in play T3.
We have to cycle it and take 6 damage to get to 11/11, having an Uncracked Fetch in play, and 4 Floating Mana only Shock played being a Stomping Ground
I'm not sure where I went wrong if you are getting 5 damage taken, while I have 6, but to keep going, shocks are going to have to get used, and it will get us low.
Against burn, I dont know if its feasible unless we are on the play to use Kessig.
This idea is so dope! I REALLY hope Bant can become a viable colour combo. Im part of the camp that thinks that full combo is not the way to go. I think pressuring with early resilient creatures and having an incidental win combo is going to be the most viable game plan. I do see it in the same category as twin, a two piece combo with a theoretical turn 3 kill (better that twin!). but like twin i think that is rarely going to be the case. The best part is that no card in the deck is dead. twins creatures are pretty garbage unless they're combo'ing and multiple early splinter twins are dead until you can find an opening to go infinite.
Not only is coral helm pretty okay in multiples (just scry or ramp harder or tap down blockers harder.) but knight is awesome even without coral helm. Signs of a good deck are when every card is good on its own and even better when they get together and i think this deck has that.
i don't have a list together yet, working on that today, but I'm leaning towards voice and geist (who can also just win games on his own) as early pressure creatures forcing opponent to make bad plays and open up room for KotR. Since the deck is literally at its inception heres just some spitballing of other cards that might have some playability that i haven't seen mentioned. (these are just interesting cards and not "these cards need to go in")
Alot of posts are assuming you have an active retreat. Thats a bad way of thinking. While its tough to kill retreat, its also kinda tough to "draw" it too. If you opt to go all in combo, your playing a very bad, easy to disrupt combo deck. So you probably ahould be drawing rough sketches from naya zoo, bant tempo, or gw kibler aggro
And go from there. Not trying to build it from scratch.
Im on my phone, and stacked for time, so ill make a bigger post of my testing and what i built later. For now heres some key points.
1. Red is needed as a splash for wolfrun. When your not comboing, wolfrun lets you win the game.
2. Steppe lynx is better than nacatl. It does the "same" damage in the long run but nacatl cant be a second threat with knight come combo.
3. You dont need bolt. Ifeel nuts for saying that, but 4 path, 4 retreat and 2 stubborn denial has been enough for me.
4. Retreat is pretty awesome on its own. I can scry while attacking with lynx, then tap down blockers. Tarnos never bothered me, and i even tapped an eldrazi. Sweet.
5. Idont think this is the deck for goyf, least not my set up.
6. Fetch damage isnt a problem. Use tango lands. The deck doesnt need blue until turn 3 anyways. When it needs it on turn 2, your using a dork. No problem.
7. 6 dorks is correct.
I suspect that most of the time it will be correct just to cycle knight up to a 2-turn clock and leave a fetch on the field to protect him after combat.
Also, think playing closer to 24 lands is correct with some more spell lands - gavony township, ghost quarter type stuff. But maybe not
@Lantern i whole heartedly agree with points 3 to 7. Don't like nacatl or step lynx so I'm pretty mute on point 2.
Point 1 i don't think red is needed (not saying its bad, but i think its not a must. The deck could potentially go black just as easily and than have access to such things as Abrupt decay and Siege rhino. Right now the nice thing is lists seem to not have any double mana casting costs and a plethora of ways to make/fetch/find any colour. Green and White a very important but there isn't much blue outside of Coralhelm and maybe Geist, so its possible the deck could support red or black easy as a tiny 4th colour.
Our curve should be pretty low, in most sane builds Knight of the Reliquary and other three drop creatures are the top of our curve. 22 seems correct in my experience, 21 seems to lead to some games in which I play no magic so I'd rather air on the safe side. As I've said before the mana base is the most difficult part of the deck, we see tons of people both advocating the use of tango lands, some amount of both shock lands and tango lands, and exclusively shock lands. In my experience using just shocklands is unacceptable if counting on using Kessig Wolf Run as your combo land as you'll kill yourself half the time, that said Kessig Wolf Run is a better card generally speaking in this deck than Sunhome, Fortress of the Legion, but sunhome lets you combo off with only spending about 6 life. Lightning Bolt and Wild Nacatl as much as I love these cards tends to turn the red in the deck into more of a necessity than a splash and a 4 color build almost certainly needs shocklands to run. Steppe Lynx feels great in the deck but on a bad draw can let you down, so airing on the safe side with your land count and fetch density is key to making them work when not comboing off. I'm at 11-12 fetches right now. I'd be interested in seeing Lantern's list, especially the tango land mana base. If I must be pulled away from my bolts for the sake of consistency I will be, and I don't hate the idea of Stubborn Denial. Leaving 2 mana up for a remand sucks in this deck but 1 mana is much more doable. That said, if it means playing Loxodon Smiter instead of Geist of Saint Traft, it may be back to the drawing board tbh, The ghost plus Coralhelm is just too good.
I have been running Smiters instead but that was due to keeping remand causing me to not want to cast Geist, now that they are out Ill put him back in and see.
EDIT: Shaping up I think, my core selections after a few days of play and all your helpful suggestions.
The flex slots I keep changing up, from Finks, to other Mana Dorks, instants (counters, combat tricks, whatever) but I'm pretty happy with how it's working out. Rogue's Passage really seems to be catching people. I know the Fleecemane isnt seen as top flight stuff, but I'm willing to sacrifice one card to my inner Timmy, and its not been a dead draw all weekend. :]
Another important concept that makes me think running more lands is right, btw:
In order for Coralhelm to be a strong card on its own in the deck, the deck needs to hit its land drops. This means we need either card draw or some card advantage engine.
My gut feeling so far is that Courser of Kruphix is the best primary answer to that; he is very, very strong at hitting your land drops (especially when you can use one land drop to set up the next with scry from Coralhelm + fetch activations).
Throw in some Cocos and some Eternal Witnesses, and you get ways to insure you hit your drops (by thinning out your deck, occasionally retrieving fetchlands, and digging toward Courser/Knight/etc.).
Total sidenote: it is possible the Emeria Titan deck is where this package belongs; all the durdly creatures that focus on hitting your drops and getting up to Titan mana have very strong synergy with Retreat, and Sun Titan of course does as well.
Played a single game with a jank 1st draft list of this vs Tron. Turn 2 voice, turn 3 dropped a 4/4 KotR, turn 4 top decked a coralhelm, spent about 10 minutes figuring out triggers and swung for 20 damage.
This deck concept seems to have a lot more game vs. Tron than most mid-aggro critter decks.
Anyone run the numbers on likelihood of T4 combo yet with various scenarios? Gets tough if you factor in goofy cards like Courser and Coco I guess, but ballpark?
Just played th emost hilarious match with this deck...vs. Lantern Control. constant shuffling to try to protect cards and such. Absolutely hilarious. My SB needs more bridge answers if I am gonna take that deck seriously but I still did OK. Won one game on the back of 0/1 hierarchs swinging through bridge
Courser is definitely the real deal with this deck. I didn't hardly use Coralhelm triggers and got a 14/14 knight (used maybe 2 untaps on Knight).
I may look into it tomorrow but how many are gunning for the all in combo? Unless you are running Serum Visions just from all my time on Twin, with only 2 cards vs what twin could do with Kiki-Splinter and Exarch-Pestermite and cantrips I don't know.
Feels like if you get there, great, but I wouldn't say odds of a T4 are good.
I am going to look at Courser I think. I haven't had mana issues at all but it's worth the look.
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All fair points. I've had the manland situation come up already, and it's a pain to deal with. Against Merfolk especially it's relevant. I just hate the idea of taking 10 or so damage to combo against burn. I haven't done the math, but if Sunhome costs 5 life to deal 20, Kessig must cost a lot more than that...
Someone should figure out how bad it is if you're comboing off turn 3 with Knight, Dork, and Retreat in play, and just two lands (both of which are tapped), only one of which is a forest/plains. That's the bare minimum situation to combo. With Sunhome, I know it's 5 life. With Kessig... more.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
Spirits
AFAIK.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
We have to cycle it and take 6 damage to get to 11/11, having an Uncracked Fetch in play, and 4 Floating Mana only Shock played being a Stomping Ground
I'm not sure where I went wrong if you are getting 5 damage taken, while I have 6, but to keep going, shocks are going to have to get used, and it will get us low.
Against burn, I dont know if its feasible unless we are on the play to use Kessig.
Spirits
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Not only is coral helm pretty okay in multiples (just scry or ramp harder or tap down blockers harder.) but knight is awesome even without coral helm. Signs of a good deck are when every card is good on its own and even better when they get together and i think this deck has that.
i don't have a list together yet, working on that today, but I'm leaning towards voice and geist (who can also just win games on his own) as early pressure creatures forcing opponent to make bad plays and open up room for KotR. Since the deck is literally at its inception heres just some spitballing of other cards that might have some playability that i haven't seen mentioned. (these are just interesting cards and not "these cards need to go in")
Genesis wave, Genesis hydra, Coiling oracle, Sun titan the deck seems like it can make a ton of extra mana even without KotR as Return turns mana dorks into Lotus cobra
And go from there. Not trying to build it from scratch.
Im on my phone, and stacked for time, so ill make a bigger post of my testing and what i built later. For now heres some key points.
1. Red is needed as a splash for wolfrun. When your not comboing, wolfrun lets you win the game.
2. Steppe lynx is better than nacatl. It does the "same" damage in the long run but nacatl cant be a second threat with knight come combo.
3. You dont need bolt. Ifeel nuts for saying that, but 4 path, 4 retreat and 2 stubborn denial has been enough for me.
4. Retreat is pretty awesome on its own. I can scry while attacking with lynx, then tap down blockers. Tarnos never bothered me, and i even tapped an eldrazi. Sweet.
5. Idont think this is the deck for goyf, least not my set up.
6. Fetch damage isnt a problem. Use tango lands. The deck doesnt need blue until turn 3 anyways. When it needs it on turn 2, your using a dork. No problem.
7. 6 dorks is correct.
Also, think playing closer to 24 lands is correct with some more spell lands - gavony township, ghost quarter type stuff. But maybe not
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Point 1 i don't think red is needed (not saying its bad, but i think its not a must. The deck could potentially go black just as easily and than have access to such things as Abrupt decay and Siege rhino. Right now the nice thing is lists seem to not have any double mana casting costs and a plethora of ways to make/fetch/find any colour. Green and White a very important but there isn't much blue outside of Coralhelm and maybe Geist, so its possible the deck could support red or black easy as a tiny 4th colour.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
EDIT: Shaping up I think, my core selections after a few days of play and all your helpful suggestions.
4 Windswept Heath
4 Flooded Strand
2 Temple Garden
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Sejiri Steppe
1 Soaring Seacliff
1 Rogue's Passage
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
//12 Core Creatures
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Loxodon Smiter
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Qasali Pridemage
//3 Enchant
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
//8 Instants
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
4 Loam Lion
2 Simic Charm
2 Rhox War Monk
1 Fleecemane Lion
The flex slots I keep changing up, from Finks, to other Mana Dorks, instants (counters, combat tricks, whatever) but I'm pretty happy with how it's working out. Rogue's Passage really seems to be catching people. I know the Fleecemane isnt seen as top flight stuff, but I'm willing to sacrifice one card to my inner Timmy, and its not been a dead draw all weekend. :]
Spirits
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
In order for Coralhelm to be a strong card on its own in the deck, the deck needs to hit its land drops. This means we need either card draw or some card advantage engine.
My gut feeling so far is that Courser of Kruphix is the best primary answer to that; he is very, very strong at hitting your land drops (especially when you can use one land drop to set up the next with scry from Coralhelm + fetch activations).
Throw in some Cocos and some Eternal Witnesses, and you get ways to insure you hit your drops (by thinning out your deck, occasionally retrieving fetchlands, and digging toward Courser/Knight/etc.).
Total sidenote: it is possible the Emeria Titan deck is where this package belongs; all the durdly creatures that focus on hitting your drops and getting up to Titan mana have very strong synergy with Retreat, and Sun Titan of course does as well.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
Anyone run the numbers on likelihood of T4 combo yet with various scenarios? Gets tough if you factor in goofy cards like Courser and Coco I guess, but ballpark?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Courser is definitely the real deal with this deck. I didn't hardly use Coralhelm triggers and got a 14/14 knight (used maybe 2 untaps on Knight).
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Feels like if you get there, great, but I wouldn't say odds of a T4 are good.
I am going to look at Courser I think. I haven't had mana issues at all but it's worth the look.
Spirits