I would reword Tarmogoyf as we tend not to use walkers. Also, the description of Pridemage still refers to the non-existent twin deck. I would also move Kitchen Finks to the sideboard area.
Mystic gate (the UW filterland)
Not as good as basic island against blood moon, but better otherwise. Still need more testing but I've been more happy to see mystic gate than island.
Burrenton forge tender
This card has been putting some serious work. One of the best inclusions to the deck, in my opinion. My opponents were as surprised as I was about the power of this card.
Rhox war monk
Mana cost is awkward, but otherwise performed great. Even against eldrazi, where I would have thought that it wouldn't be good (too small for their creatures), the lifegain of him attacking with two exalted triggers was enough to gain me some turns.
Unified will
This has underperformed. I'll keep testing it because I think it can be good. There were matches like abzan company where I wanted the three negates and couldn't include the unified wills, and I've played none yet where I preferred the wills over negates (there are some, I know, that's why I'm still testing).
RPD I completely agree with forge-tender, card is amazing.
Not sure I like the filter land. They're rarely good enough in modern as is, and gate doesn't cast noble or filter with basic forest. Have you tried botanical?
Also I wanted to mention that if your ghost quarter in the board is primarily for Tron, tectonic edge could be better. With a knight, you can get the quarter first and then edge will let you keep them off five lands for tusk or ostone crack. Also doubles as a great card against valakut (GQ isn't great there)
2. New lines for Collected Company hits. With Revolt activated, hitting Rallier at instant speed gives the deck more play.
3. Valuetown: For Eldritch Evolution builds, play evolution saccing Voice of Resurgence to trigger Revolt, tutor Rallier, return Voice. In grindy matchups--especially when we board out the combo against 1-for-1 removal decks (I anticipate a lot more of this happening given Fatal Push)--this interaction specifically seems like a great way to generate value to maintain a tempo advantage.
It's too bad the revolt clause is 2 cmc instead of 3, as that would likely make him an auto-include. Even so, this card seems worth testing.
Also I wanted to mention that if your ghost quarter in the board is primarily for Tron, tectonic edge could be better. With a knight, you can get the quarter first and then edge will let you keep them off five lands for tusk or ostone crack. Also doubles as a great card against valakut (GQ isn't great there)
This is a great point that shouldn't be overlooked. I have often advocated for an additional ghost quarter in the sb for tron, but of course your argument for tectonic edge instead is convincing. Since you can search out ghost quarter first against tron anyways, the second copy might as well be tectonic edge for added utility.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
The thing with this deck is that it wants G t1 and then, on the following turns, GW UU UW and GWU. Botanical might work (additional U source, casts hierarchs t1). The main question is, vendilion vs more turn 1 acceleration (filter helps with vendilion, botanical casts t1 hierarch).
Tectonic is a fair point. Can be awkward if drawn, but is better against GBx strategies where I usually include the extra land. Will test both ideas
Renegade rallier is súper low impact in our already cluttered 3 drop spot. The revolt mechanic is great though. As a friend said, triggering revolt in a deck with 4 reliquaries is trivial. Looking for some kind of fatally pushed creature in the 2 drop spot.
Anyone else worried about Fatal Push? Snapcaster/Push decks may be our ruin (I play CoCo Bant no Knightfall). Mirran Crusader/Geist of Saint Traft are going to be more important.
I'm not worried about push.
It's just going to replace some number of removal in most shells, and become the defacto removal in UB decks.
Our opponent will get a better rate over a terminate, but we're still going to overload them with efficient bodies.
Push will be another combat trick to lookout for. chump-block push could be a thing, especially when they don't have a fetch land.
And they 'will' require revolt to hit our 3 drops
Speaking of Aether Revolt, today they spoiled this one: "Heroic Intervention"; 1G; Instant; Permanents you control gain Hexproof and Indestructible until end of turn.
What do you guys think about it? This is possibly the best protection spell for a CoCo deck right?
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Modern: GWUKnightfall WUSpirits GWBCounters Company
Legacy: WBGR Aggro Loam
the thing is, why would this deck want a protection spell? Not synergistic at all. There's already spellskite and selfless spirit, and if you want noncreature spells there's dromoka's command.
I can't imagine wanting Sram's Expertise in the deck - much less so when you have to cut some collected company to fit it in. Similarly, I don't know what we would want to ramp into with Rishkar, Peema Renegade.
How do you see those cards fitting into the Knightfall deck's strategy?
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Modern Decks
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Managed a 4-0 last night with a pretty standard list, and I actually never won with the combo. All-Stars were Spell Queller and Voice of Resurgence.
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Skred
2-0 Burn
2-1 Esper Control
I will note that Unified Will came up huge for me in the Esper matchup (was able to counter a Elspeth, Sun's Champion that would have effectively ended our game 3 on the spot). My guess is that Fatal Push will make these draw-go strategies much more playable, so the 2-of in my sideboard seems highly justified. We'll have to see how the meta reacts, but I know my LGS is full of blue mages who have been dying for years to sleeve up proper control decks.
This is my current plan to combat a mixed super aggro/midrange meta. Literally every creature except knight trades well with Bolt or Fatal Push while retaining the ability to combo early against the fast decks, pull out an aggro curve against big decks and combo decks, while adding more removal for the infect/affinity/burn/aggro matchups which I see often. Gideon is just a house in midrange matchups and laughs at most removal. Sideboard is just something I tweak consistently vs my local shop.
Just a different take on the stock versions with skites spirits and quellers. Any comments or advice would be appreciated.
@heywhynot yup, if fatal push makes grindy decks a thing, I'm sleeving 2-4 voices and outgrinding everyone. Congrats on the finish!
Real question, if removal heavy decks take a bigger portion of the meta, how many quellers do we take out? After playing with those in frontier (where everyone has lots of wraths and removal) I've kind of concluded that queller is only good in a removal light meta. Its not that good of a tempo play, most of the time.
@brulander It lacks card advantage/card selection (being Gideon and snap the main CA sources of the deck). And snap doesn't really fit...
My advice would be to either narrow on the aggro plan (something like geist tribal zoo) or adding more card advantage (planeswalkers, tireless tracker, horizon canopy, chord of calling...)
Have you tried kikichord? Chord is one hell of a card, and you will have a better manabase (the knightfall combo has weird restrictions, you know)
Have you tried kikichord? Chord is one hell of a card, and you will have a better manabase (the knightfall combo has weird restrictions, you know)
Kiki Company holds its own even better against aggro / midrange than straight Kiki Chord, honestly. A lot of these decks just can't keep up with the value you get off CoCo + cards like Voice and Finks.
Took the following 75 to a GPT today, finished in 11th place at 4-2 (feelsbadman). Notes below.
I tried out a Fauna Shaman package because I love the card, and was not satisfied with Goyf because it and Knight suck vs graveyard hate. It allowed me to run a more toolbox-style board.
Round 1: Human tribal blitz (Loss, 1-2)
G1(L): Got run over by a swarm of midgets that turned into 5/5s
G2(W): Managed to not die and won a grind-fest
G3(L): See G1, got stuck on 2 lands
Good Stuff: Path, Queller, Wolf Run
Stuff to work on: Eelevant 2-drops, manabase, wanted more removal
Round 2: Abzan (Win, 2-0)
G1(W): Combo'd off after some grinding
G2(W): Kept a questionable 1-lander with a dork, got lucky and won the grind fair and square.
Good Stuff: Path, Courser, Knight, Wolf Run
Stuff to Work On: manabase
Round 3: Death's Shadow zoo (Win, 2-1)
G1(W): Killed/quelled relevant cards, stabilized at 1 and won from there.
G2(L): Got stuck on 2 lands, got smacked
G2(W): Won an easy grindy game
Good Stuff: Alliance, Path, Queller, Spellskite
Stuff to Work On: manabase, wanted more removal
Round 4: Affinity (2-0)
G1(W): Won a grindy game
G2(W): See G1
Good Stuff: Queller, Pridemage, ghost quarter, Clique and fliers in general
Stuff to Work On: Wanted more Pridemage/Staticaster
At this point, I wasn't able to take 2 draws into Top 8 so I had to play the rest of the rounds out. Got paired up Round 5 vs a 4-0
Round 5: Human tribal blitz (Loss, 1-2)
G1(L): Got run over by a swarm of midgets that turned into 5/5s (this seems to be a trend vs this deck)
G2(W): Stabilized and won the grind
G3(L): See G1
Good Stuff: Queller, Path
Stuff to Work On: Wanted more removal, maybe sweepers
Round 6: Burn (Win, 2-0)
G1(W): Combo'd him out and won with exactsies thanks to Wolf Run
G2(W): Won a grindy game
Good Stuff: Queller (surprisingly), Path
Stuff to Work On: Wanted more lifegain creatures in the board (Finks, War Monk)
Notes:
-Fauna Shaman did not perform. I used it once to tutor up an Ewitness for Path (which was good), but wasn't helpful otherwise. I cut Voice for Shaman after I had trouble casting Voice last week, but will probably try fitting it back in.
-Manabase was decent (basic Island was actually good), but I got stuck on lands more than I like. Will maybe try and fit the 23rd land in, and a Botanical Sanctum over the Island.
-I'm considering cutting red. Wolf Run is good, as is Staticaster, but the strain on the mana is pretty rough. Would maybe look something like this
-The Humans matchup apparently sucks. I'd never heard of the deck, then meet both people in the room running it and get smacked. Makes me want EE or something.
-Staticaster was ok. Was decent vs Affinity (by the time I found it, I was already winning) and surprisingly terrible vs Humans (too slow). Worth a slot or 2 for sure.
As for Kelvin's list, I'm surprised by the 4x Scooze main. I've been looking to settle on some my last two 2-drops (been trying Voice/Shaman), but I'm surprised by his choice. Clearly it worked out.
@pigeon_grenade if you go and cut red, I would try to fit a sejiri steppe. When I ran Bant without the splash it definitely performed well.
How did you sideboard against humans? I think that matchup is like playing against a worse eldrazi. I would have kept the combo, included more removal and worship. Seems to be one of this weird matchups (like against lifegain) where you might think that grinding is a good idea but its not, and you need to be aggressive.
Fauna shaman didnt perform for me either. And I said the same about goyf: if they jam a RIP against us we suddenly have zero big creatures, and that's bad.
Obviously, Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit need to be added.
I would reword Tarmogoyf as we tend not to use walkers. Also, the description of Pridemage still refers to the non-existent twin deck. I would also move Kitchen Finks to the sideboard area.
I would put Sejiri Steppe in the less played area.
For the side-board area, I would add Worship, Negate, Blessed Alliance, Izzet Staticaster, and rhox war monk. Also, all my sideboard images are also messed up.
Can we start working on the matchups and sideboarding section? What decklist do we want to use? I nominate BOONYARIT TRIPHONRATANA's Bant Knightfall.
Mystic gate (the UW filterland)
Not as good as basic island against blood moon, but better otherwise. Still need more testing but I've been more happy to see mystic gate than island.
Burrenton forge tender
This card has been putting some serious work. One of the best inclusions to the deck, in my opinion. My opponents were as surprised as I was about the power of this card.
Rhox war monk
Mana cost is awkward, but otherwise performed great. Even against eldrazi, where I would have thought that it wouldn't be good (too small for their creatures), the lifegain of him attacking with two exalted triggers was enough to gain me some turns.
Unified will
This has underperformed. I'll keep testing it because I think it can be good. There were matches like abzan company where I wanted the three negates and couldn't include the unified wills, and I've played none yet where I preferred the wills over negates (there are some, I know, that's why I'm still testing).
L: Maverick
Not sure I like the filter land. They're rarely good enough in modern as is, and gate doesn't cast noble or filter with basic forest. Have you tried botanical?
Also I wanted to mention that if your ghost quarter in the board is primarily for Tron, tectonic edge could be better. With a knight, you can get the quarter first and then edge will let you keep them off five lands for tusk or ostone crack. Also doubles as a great card against valakut (GQ isn't great there)
We play plenty of fetchlands, so this can provide inadvertent ramp. But there's plenty else to do:
1. Given that we're a semi-toolbox deck, this thing can rebuy key cards in a pinch, whether hatebears from the sideboard or protection for the combo (Qasali Pridemage, Selfless Spirit, Spellskite, Kataki, War's Wage, Burrenton Forge Tender etc.)
2. New lines for Collected Company hits. With Revolt activated, hitting Rallier at instant speed gives the deck more play.
3. Valuetown: For Eldritch Evolution builds, play evolution saccing Voice of Resurgence to trigger Revolt, tutor Rallier, return Voice. In grindy matchups--especially when we board out the combo against 1-for-1 removal decks (I anticipate a lot more of this happening given Fatal Push)--this interaction specifically seems like a great way to generate value to maintain a tempo advantage.
It's too bad the revolt clause is 2 cmc instead of 3, as that would likely make him an auto-include. Even so, this card seems worth testing.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Tectonic is a fair point. Can be awkward if drawn, but is better against GBx strategies where I usually include the extra land. Will test both ideas
Renegade rallier is súper low impact in our already cluttered 3 drop spot. The revolt mechanic is great though. As a friend said, triggering revolt in a deck with 4 reliquaries is trivial. Looking for some kind of fatally pushed creature in the 2 drop spot.
L: Maverick
It's just going to replace some number of removal in most shells, and become the defacto removal in UB decks.
Our opponent will get a better rate over a terminate, but we're still going to overload them with efficient bodies.
Push will be another combat trick to lookout for. chump-block push could be a thing, especially when they don't have a fetch land.
And they 'will' require revolt to hit our 3 drops
What do you guys think about it? This is possibly the best protection spell for a CoCo deck right?
GWUKnightfall
WUSpirits
GWBCounters Company
Legacy:
WBGR Aggro Loam
L: Maverick
How do you see those cards fitting into the Knightfall deck's strategy?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Skred
2-0 Burn
2-1 Esper Control
I will note that Unified Will came up huge for me in the Esper matchup (was able to counter a Elspeth, Sun's Champion that would have effectively ended our game 3 on the spot). My guess is that Fatal Push will make these draw-go strategies much more playable, so the 2-of in my sideboard seems highly justified. We'll have to see how the meta reacts, but I know my LGS is full of blue mages who have been dying for years to sleeve up proper control decks.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Arid Mesa
3 Forest
3 Plains
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Gavony Township
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Negate
1 Dispel
1 Destructive Revelry
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Blessed Alliance
3 Stony Silence
1 Worship
This is my current plan to combat a mixed super aggro/midrange meta. Literally every creature except knight trades well with Bolt or Fatal Push while retaining the ability to combo early against the fast decks, pull out an aggro curve against big decks and combo decks, while adding more removal for the infect/affinity/burn/aggro matchups which I see often. Gideon is just a house in midrange matchups and laughs at most removal. Sideboard is just something I tweak consistently vs my local shop.
Just a different take on the stock versions with skites spirits and quellers. Any comments or advice would be appreciated.
Real question, if removal heavy decks take a bigger portion of the meta, how many quellers do we take out? After playing with those in frontier (where everyone has lots of wraths and removal) I've kind of concluded that queller is only good in a removal light meta. Its not that good of a tempo play, most of the time.
@brulander It lacks card advantage/card selection (being Gideon and snap the main CA sources of the deck). And snap doesn't really fit...
My advice would be to either narrow on the aggro plan (something like geist tribal zoo) or adding more card advantage (planeswalkers, tireless tracker, horizon canopy, chord of calling...)
Have you tried kikichord? Chord is one hell of a card, and you will have a better manabase (the knightfall combo has weird restrictions, you know)
L: Maverick
2 Spellskite
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
4 Spell Queller
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Courser of Kruphix
Lands (22)
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Botanical Sanctum
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
2 Izzet Staticaster
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Reflector Mage
2 Negate
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Unified Will
1 Bojuka bog
Kiki Company holds its own even better against aggro / midrange than straight Kiki Chord, honestly. A lot of these decks just can't keep up with the value you get off CoCo + cards like Voice and Finks.
Abzan Traverse / Traverse Shadow / UR Kiki
I tried out a Fauna Shaman package because I love the card, and was not satisfied with Goyf because it and Knight suck vs graveyard hate. It allowed me to run a more toolbox-style board.
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
2 Fauana Shaman
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Spell Queller
1 Eternal Witness
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Flooded Strand
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Plains
1 Stomping Ground
3 Forest
1 Temple Garden
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Worship
2 Negate
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Loaming Shaman
Round 1: Human tribal blitz (Loss, 1-2)
G1(L): Got run over by a swarm of midgets that turned into 5/5s
G2(W): Managed to not die and won a grind-fest
G3(L): See G1, got stuck on 2 lands
Good Stuff: Path, Queller, Wolf Run
Stuff to work on: Eelevant 2-drops, manabase, wanted more removal
Round 2: Abzan (Win, 2-0)
G1(W): Combo'd off after some grinding
G2(W): Kept a questionable 1-lander with a dork, got lucky and won the grind fair and square.
Good Stuff: Path, Courser, Knight, Wolf Run
Stuff to Work On: manabase
Round 3: Death's Shadow zoo (Win, 2-1)
G1(W): Killed/quelled relevant cards, stabilized at 1 and won from there.
G2(L): Got stuck on 2 lands, got smacked
G2(W): Won an easy grindy game
Good Stuff: Alliance, Path, Queller, Spellskite
Stuff to Work On: manabase, wanted more removal
Round 4: Affinity (2-0)
G1(W): Won a grindy game
G2(W): See G1
Good Stuff: Queller, Pridemage, ghost quarter, Clique and fliers in general
Stuff to Work On: Wanted more Pridemage/Staticaster
At this point, I wasn't able to take 2 draws into Top 8 so I had to play the rest of the rounds out. Got paired up Round 5 vs a 4-0
Round 5: Human tribal blitz (Loss, 1-2)
G1(L): Got run over by a swarm of midgets that turned into 5/5s (this seems to be a trend vs this deck)
G2(W): Stabilized and won the grind
G3(L): See G1
Good Stuff: Queller, Path
Stuff to Work On: Wanted more removal, maybe sweepers
Round 6: Burn (Win, 2-0)
G1(W): Combo'd him out and won with exactsies thanks to Wolf Run
G2(W): Won a grindy game
Good Stuff: Queller (surprisingly), Path
Stuff to Work On: Wanted more lifegain creatures in the board (Finks, War Monk)
Notes:
-Fauna Shaman did not perform. I used it once to tutor up an Ewitness for Path (which was good), but wasn't helpful otherwise. I cut Voice for Shaman after I had trouble casting Voice last week, but will probably try fitting it back in.
-Manabase was decent (basic Island was actually good), but I got stuck on lands more than I like. Will maybe try and fit the 23rd land in, and a Botanical Sanctum over the Island.
-I'm considering cutting red. Wolf Run is good, as is Staticaster, but the strain on the mana is pretty rough. Would maybe look something like this
-The Humans matchup apparently sucks. I'd never heard of the deck, then meet both people in the room running it and get smacked. Makes me want EE or something.
-Staticaster was ok. Was decent vs Affinity (by the time I found it, I was already winning) and surprisingly terrible vs Humans (too slow). Worth a slot or 2 for sure.
As for Kelvin's list, I'm surprised by the 4x Scooze main. I've been looking to settle on some my last two 2-drops (been trying Voice/Shaman), but I'm surprised by his choice. Clearly it worked out.
How did you sideboard against humans? I think that matchup is like playing against a worse eldrazi. I would have kept the combo, included more removal and worship. Seems to be one of this weird matchups (like against lifegain) where you might think that grinding is a good idea but its not, and you need to be aggressive.
Fauna shaman didnt perform for me either. And I said the same about goyf: if they jam a RIP against us we suddenly have zero big creatures, and that's bad.
L: Maverick
I think it's worth trying.
Grixis Delver RBU
Abzan BGW
Legacy
Elves GB
Abzan Deathblade BGW