I've been eyeballing this deck, but isn't there a fear of it being banned out due to a sudden win-from-nowhere, much like Twin was?
There is zero reason to fear this deck being banned. Twin wasn't banned because it had a combo it was banned because WOTC wanted to see more diversity in the field at the pro tour.
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Would Dark Confidant still be good if he punched you in the face for 5 damage a turn?
Please stop the ban talk, not the thread for it and entirely unwarranted.
In other news, I'm going to try running a list more like Eli Kassis - I've been not in love with the way my previous build fits into the meta at the moment.
So here's my take on the kassis style list - notably reducing the amount of path to exile. I'm still not comfortable with the lack of removal, so the 1-of fiend hunter and reflector mage are hedges against reducing the path count.
Looking forward to seeing how the Westvale abby plan compares to the kessig wolf run plan. Not having sejiri steppe seems loose, but with Eli endorsing it I guess I should revisit it.
Wanting some feedback on the primer, is there anything you guys would like to see added/removed from it? Because the deck doesn't put up consistent results it is hard to really have an accepted list to put in it. It has moved slightly away form what is in the primer too so I'd like to update it to reflect that.
I started playing this deck when i saw the combo for the first time and then thanks to google i found the primer. I'd like to say you should maybe consider adding the matchups, but since the deck moved from combo into the collected plan and this deck is very "reactional" and kinda flexible, listing the possibilities for the sideboard and the role of said card is enough for me keep up the good work!
btw: since those new cards are spoiled for eldritch moon, what you guys think of Eldritch Evolution, Emrakul's Evangel and Thalia, Heretic Cathar? I also really like to add the new Tamiyo to the list, but i'm not sure with her in this particular deck, same goes to eldritch evolution, i think tamiyo would be a great walker in a bant-midrange strategy and the other card is better in abzan company (my opinion).
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Modern: GWUKnightfall WUSpirits GWBCounters Company
Legacy: WBGR Aggro Loam
To me, Tamiyo seems perfect for this deck. Clearing the way for Knight and Geist, drawing extra cards to find the combo or just more gas seems great. It can also slow down aggro decks by freezing their best attackers. It does unfortunately compete for the precious non-creature slots, so I can't see running more than 2, but nonetheless, I think this card shows promise.
I don't think this is the right deck for Eldritch Evolution. We're very constrained in the amount of >3 CMC creatures we can have and we already play a lot of non-creature cards.
Thalia is interesting and very good on turn 2 with a manadork, but it may be hard to squeeze her in because we already have so many 3-drops we want to play. Still, some testing is warranted.
I think the new Thalia, Heretic Cathar does warrant some testing, although it could make the deck more like GW hatebears. Not necessarily a bad thing, I think I saw a couple deck lists a while back running the original Thalia.
Tamiyo, Field Researcher could probably go into a straight bant deck, and one with more Chords instead of Collected Company's, otherwise it'd be too many non-creature cards to reliably get even one creature from CoCo. I run a bant with bolts and kessigs, so having CoCos, bolts, paths, retreats, and Tamiyo would push my creature count below ~23 which is too low for me.
I'd like to add 2x Tamiyo into my deck, but since my version is playing 1x chord, 4x coco, 4x paths, 3x retreat for the non-creature spell slots, i don't know what to remove from the deck. I first thought about removing 1x path + 1x chord, 1x retreat + 1x path or 2x paths, but i'm not confortable with it, since path is our only removalspell and either removing a toolbox card or a combo piece. I like the hatebears idea, lowering the creature-count, possibly removing the coco's and instead playing full playsets of chords and aether vials (adding the blue-splash for tamiyo and retreat?). I don't know what tamiyo is going to replace, but i'm sure someone is going to crack that puzzle.
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Modern: GWUKnightfall WUSpirits GWBCounters Company
Legacy: WBGR Aggro Loam
Sacrifice Selfless Soul: Creatures you control gain indestructible until end of turn.
2/1
--
IMO this is quietly one of the best creatures in ENM, and it could be great in Knightfall. This is far more affordable than Dauntless Escort and arguably more impactful given its evasion. A cheap and effective Chord target to stop wraths or save knight/geist. Also a very relevant attacker with exalted, and it has good synergy with Tamiyo.
With this and the new Tamiyo, I feel like the deck's aggressive plan has been boosted significantly. The only question is how to hit the right balance of non-land spells (Path, Retreat, CoCo, Chord and now Tamiyo all competing for precious few slots.)
Ok Kassis, I give up. You clearly understand this deck way better than I do with your 1st place finish at the SCG classic this weekend. 2Oath of Nissa, 2 noble, 2 bird, 4 serum vision as turn 1 plays? What is this madness?!
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I can't deny that Kasis has been on fire with the deck, but his decklist looks like a mashup of Knightfall and Nahiri, which just doesnt feel right to me. You can see where the Nahiri elements are clashing with the Knightfall plan(Oath of Nissa is wierd).
I mean, I thought he was onto something with the Westvale Abbey/Courser in Main plan(as seen at GP Charlotte), but I'm left confused as to the recent switch.
I'm glad this list came up. I went to look at mtgtop8 the other day and saw this, then went to SCG to confirm the list. My reaction could be described as:
I truly don't understand this deck at all in terms of consistency, game plan, lines of play, mulligans, etc. It looks like he shuffled two decks together and then just removed cards at random. Others mentioned the bizarre combination of mana dorks, but I'm also pained by the 2 Path and 3 (!?) Bolts. Also, running on 22 lands with 4 dorks? Baller move...
The fetches are equally vertigo inducing. A set of Mistys seems obvious, but then the split on Foothills and Heath, and a singleton Mesa?
And, just in case you're still seeing straight... a singleton Flame Jab in the sideboard.
I'm not sure on what comes out for spell queller? war monk/smiter maybe? Once in play queller serves the beat down plan, He also hopefully pulls removal away from KotR. If not, then you can get in for 2 + exalted until the opponent wants his spell back.
I have trouble with the infect match-up and I can see queller pulling it's weight there. Flying is relevant and stealing a pump spell against a deck with little removal seems fine. The affinity matchup might get a boost too, I can't turn down maindeck answers for plating and champion.
Spell queller seems good in the tron and scapeshift matches too. Blanking early game ramp effects might be a decent enough tempo swing in our favor to delay the inevitable.
Conversely, spell queller seems bad against jund/abzan/grixis and especially burn. jund and abzan you'd take out lily's and their value creatures, grixis it would feel great to snag AV, but all three decks have more than enough removal to bolt/path/terminate/decay our queller and get back their spell. The only target in burn I like is reveler. They maybe don't spend a bolt to take it back, but for almost every other spell, their value play involves searing blaze and us taking at least 6.
I'm not sure on what comes out for spell queller? war monk/smiter maybe? because once in play queller serves the beat down plan. He also, hopefully pulls a removal spell away from KotR, if not then you can get in for 2+exalted until opponent wants his spell back.
I have trouble with the infect matchup And I can see queller pulling it's weight there, flying is relevant and stealing a pump spell against a deck with little removal seems fine. The affinity matchup might get a boost too, I can't turn down maindeck answers for plating and champion.
Spell queller seems fine in the tron and scapeshift matches too. blanking an early game ramp effect might be a decent enough tempo swing in our favor to slow down the enevitable.
Conversely, spell queller seems bad against jund/Abzan/grixis and especially burn. Jund and Abzan you take out lily's and their value creatures, Grixis it would feel great to snag AV, but all three decks have more than enough removal to bolt/path/terminate/Decay queller and get back their spell. The only target in burn I like is Reveler. they maybe don't spend a bolt to take it back, but almost every other spell, their value play involves searing blaze and us taking at least 6.
what other matchup would queller help against?
I do agree that it seems bad against the grindy three colour decks that are full of removal. I don't agree that it's bad against burn. It's a flash 2/3 blocker that can cleanly block Goblin Guide, Eidolon, and sometimes Monastery Swiftspear (can safely block even with 1 prowess trigger). The fact that they have so many ways to kill it does not bother me. Them having to aim their burn spells at my creatures as opposed to my face is a win. I do agree that Searing Blaze sucks but our deck is in no position to play around that card. I think Spell Queller is a great piece of interaction for the combo/ linear decks that can outrace us. Spell Queller seems great aginst Ad Nauseum, Burn, Infect, Affinity, Suicide Zoo. It may not be maindeck worthy but it certainly has a place in this archetype. This creature gets its maximum value against decks that struggle to get the card you exiled back. It is also important to note that uncounterable spells like Abrupt Decay and Supreme Verdict get hit by this guy. Also the CMC 4 or less clause is perfect in modern as that will hit virtually every card in the format with a few exceptions. Spell Queller is also great against counterspells as them getting the counterspell back with no spells on the stack gives them no value.
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Modern: Bant Company GWU Dredgevine GBR Affinity 0 Grixis Control UBR
So I've been contemplating Eli Kassis's innovation with respect to jamming nahiri, the harbinger combo in with knightfall. The decklist felt very raw, and I was interested enough in the idea to work on it. I think one of the most compelling reasons to go this direction is that we are threatening to do it earlier than other builds, and it gives the deck a way to overpower graveyard hate with another (mostly) instant-win. In fact, bringing in graveyard hate against the build might not be such a good plan since it can just be a brick if we are on the turn 3 Nahiri plan. Additionally, it gives us something good to do with extra Retreat to Coralhelms.
So I started brewing. As a 4-drop, Nahiri will take the spots of collected company since they have direct anti-synergy. Dropping coco opens up the deckbuilding a bit allowing for more filtering. This is a rough draft trying to take as many lines of attack as possible. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar offers another threat that can protect nahiri or stall until coralhelm combo.
So many ways to win: regular beat down, coralhelm combo, nahiri combo and even ormandal beatdown.
The diversity of threats offered here is impressive.
Anyone else been thinking about Nahiri Knightfall builds? Post your try!
edit: Updated list. The deck feels incredible. SB added.
edit 2: Updated Again. SB still in flux a bit, but otherwise list is solidifying. Nissa is a great way to curve into nahiri when you aren't hitting the knightfall combo since it dodges most removal and offers a chump blocker each turn while threatening her own ultimate. Traverse the Ulvenwald has been performing better than serum visions as we can actually turn it on once we hit turns 4-5 (oath of nissa would be better than either, but I wanted a sorcery for goyf).
Looks good to me! 3 Tireless tracker might be too much - a split with Courser of kruphix maybe? Lots of good SB creatures to choose from, I found playing sets of 2 matchup bullets allowed company to hit them fairly often.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Looks good to me! 3 Tireless tracker might be too much - a split with Courser of kruphix maybe? Lots of good SB creatures to choose from, I found playing sets of 2 matchup bullets allowed company to hit them fairly often.
In general I like the ideia how Tireless tracker can interact with this archtype , she give us draw engineer and pump itself.
First night out with the new direction for the deck. Round 1 goblins couldn't swing through the ground forces after the first two turns (I was on the draw for both), and died to emrakul in short order. R2 featured Abzan which was a quick 2-0. Abzan could keep me off the knight combo with paths, but couldn't get through the tokens or 2-drops fast enough to stop nahiri(Nissa almost went off in one game as well). R3 faeries wasn't close. Game 1 I was on the play with bird, he played tapped land and I slammed nissa. He hits bitterblossom and I exile it with Nahiri and the game was over before the first ancestral vision came off suspend. Game 2 was a bit closer, but voice ended up producing tokens when he was forced to counter spells on my turn which didn't take long to hit for lethal. R4 against Jeskai Nahiri: I wanted to see how this match went, and now I feel like it is favoured. Simply put, we topdeck way better and are not particular vulnerable to losing the resource war.
Ended up 4-0 in matches which was nice for the new build.
The last couple months had been tough for the Coco builds, and this just ran people over. Lines like t1 dork t2 knight t3 retreat and t1 dork t2 nissa t3 nahiri are the best hands, but even the backup plans of voice and goyf is good enough most of the time. Still not sure on Traverse the Ulvenwald even if it did come in hand (if not just to pump goyf), and oath of nissa has overperformed.
There is zero reason to fear this deck being banned. Twin wasn't banned because it had a combo it was banned because WOTC wanted to see more diversity in the field at the pro tour.
In other news, I'm going to try running a list more like Eli Kassis - I've been not in love with the way my previous build fits into the meta at the moment.
So here's my take on the kassis style list - notably reducing the amount of path to exile. I'm still not comfortable with the lack of removal, so the 1-of fiend hunter and reflector mage are hedges against reducing the path count.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Reflector Mage
1 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
2 Path to Exile
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Forest
2 Plains
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
2 Twisted Image
2 Negate
1 Dromoka's Command
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Meddling Mage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Vendilion Clique
Looking forward to seeing how the Westvale abby plan compares to the kessig wolf run plan. Not having sejiri steppe seems loose, but with Eli endorsing it I guess I should revisit it.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
btw: since those new cards are spoiled for eldritch moon, what you guys think of Eldritch Evolution, Emrakul's Evangel and Thalia, Heretic Cathar? I also really like to add the new Tamiyo to the list, but i'm not sure with her in this particular deck, same goes to eldritch evolution, i think tamiyo would be a great walker in a bant-midrange strategy and the other card is better in abzan company (my opinion).
GWUKnightfall
WUSpirits
GWBCounters Company
Legacy:
WBGR Aggro Loam
I don't think this is the right deck for Eldritch Evolution. We're very constrained in the amount of >3 CMC creatures we can have and we already play a lot of non-creature cards.
Thalia is interesting and very good on turn 2 with a manadork, but it may be hard to squeeze her in because we already have so many 3-drops we want to play. Still, some testing is warranted.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Tamiyo, Field Researcher could probably go into a straight bant deck, and one with more Chords instead of Collected Company's, otherwise it'd be too many non-creature cards to reliably get even one creature from CoCo. I run a bant with bolts and kessigs, so having CoCos, bolts, paths, retreats, and Tamiyo would push my creature count below ~23 which is too low for me.
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG
GWUKnightfall
WUSpirits
GWBCounters Company
Legacy:
WBGR Aggro Loam
1W
Creature - Spirit
Flying
Sacrifice Selfless Soul: Creatures you control gain indestructible until end of turn.
2/1
--
IMO this is quietly one of the best creatures in ENM, and it could be great in Knightfall. This is far more affordable than Dauntless Escort and arguably more impactful given its evasion. A cheap and effective Chord target to stop wraths or save knight/geist. Also a very relevant attacker with exalted, and it has good synergy with Tamiyo.
With this and the new Tamiyo, I feel like the deck's aggressive plan has been boosted significantly. The only question is how to hit the right balance of non-land spells (Path, Retreat, CoCo, Chord and now Tamiyo all competing for precious few slots.)
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I mean, I thought he was onto something with the Westvale Abbey/Courser in Main plan(as seen at GP Charlotte), but I'm left confused as to the recent switch.
I truly don't understand this deck at all in terms of consistency, game plan, lines of play, mulligans, etc. It looks like he shuffled two decks together and then just removed cards at random. Others mentioned the bizarre combination of mana dorks, but I'm also pained by the 2 Path and 3 (!?) Bolts. Also, running on 22 lands with 4 dorks? Baller move...
The fetches are equally vertigo inducing. A set of Mistys seems obvious, but then the split on Foothills and Heath, and a singleton Mesa?
And, just in case you're still seeing straight... a singleton Flame Jab in the sideboard.
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I have trouble with the infect match-up and I can see queller pulling it's weight there. Flying is relevant and stealing a pump spell against a deck with little removal seems fine. The affinity matchup might get a boost too, I can't turn down maindeck answers for plating and champion.
Spell queller seems good in the tron and scapeshift matches too. Blanking early game ramp effects might be a decent enough tempo swing in our favor to delay the inevitable.
Conversely, spell queller seems bad against jund/abzan/grixis and especially burn. jund and abzan you'd take out lily's and their value creatures, grixis it would feel great to snag AV, but all three decks have more than enough removal to bolt/path/terminate/decay our queller and get back their spell. The only target in burn I like is reveler. They maybe don't spend a bolt to take it back, but for almost every other spell, their value play involves searing blaze and us taking at least 6.
What other matchup would queller help against?
*edits to phone typos and funky punctuation
I do agree that it seems bad against the grindy three colour decks that are full of removal. I don't agree that it's bad against burn. It's a flash 2/3 blocker that can cleanly block Goblin Guide, Eidolon, and sometimes Monastery Swiftspear (can safely block even with 1 prowess trigger). The fact that they have so many ways to kill it does not bother me. Them having to aim their burn spells at my creatures as opposed to my face is a win. I do agree that Searing Blaze sucks but our deck is in no position to play around that card. I think Spell Queller is a great piece of interaction for the combo/ linear decks that can outrace us. Spell Queller seems great aginst Ad Nauseum, Burn, Infect, Affinity, Suicide Zoo. It may not be maindeck worthy but it certainly has a place in this archetype. This creature gets its maximum value against decks that struggle to get the card you exiled back. It is also important to note that uncounterable spells like Abrupt Decay and Supreme Verdict get hit by this guy. Also the CMC 4 or less clause is perfect in modern as that will hit virtually every card in the format with a few exceptions. Spell Queller is also great against counterspells as them getting the counterspell back with no spells on the stack gives them no value.
So I started brewing. As a 4-drop, Nahiri will take the spots of collected company since they have direct anti-synergy. Dropping coco opens up the deckbuilding a bit allowing for more filtering. This is a rough draft trying to take as many lines of attack as possible. Nissa, Voice of Zendikar offers another threat that can protect nahiri or stall until coralhelm combo.
So many ways to win: regular beat down, coralhelm combo, nahiri combo and even ormandal beatdown.
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Path to Exile
2 Oath of Nissa
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Stony Silence
2 Dispel
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Twisted Image
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Ghost Quarter
The diversity of threats offered here is impressive.
Anyone else been thinking about Nahiri Knightfall builds? Post your try!
edit: Updated list. The deck feels incredible. SB added.
edit 2: Updated Again. SB still in flux a bit, but otherwise list is solidifying. Nissa is a great way to curve into nahiri when you aren't hitting the knightfall combo since it dodges most removal and offers a chump blocker each turn while threatening her own ultimate. Traverse the Ulvenwald has been performing better than serum visions as we can actually turn it on once we hit turns 4-5 (oath of nissa would be better than either, but I wanted a sorcery for goyf).
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Eternal Witness
3 Reflector Mage
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Collected Company
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Breeding Pool
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Plain
I think Tamiyo, Field Researcher can be a good card for this archtype
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
In general I like the ideia how Tireless tracker can interact with this archtype , she give us draw engineer and pump itself.
I would like to see Courser of kruphix with Wall of Omens if Tamiyo, Field Researcher supposing to be good enough for this archtype.
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Voice of Resurgence
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Nissa, Voice of Zendikar
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Path to Exile
2 Oath of Nissa
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Forest
1 Plains
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Stony Silence
2 Dispel
2 Dromoka's Command
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Twisted Image
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Ghost Quarter
Ended up 4-0 in matches which was nice for the new build.
The last couple months had been tough for the Coco builds, and this just ran people over. Lines like t1 dork t2 knight t3 retreat and t1 dork t2 nissa t3 nahiri are the best hands, but even the backup plans of voice and goyf is good enough most of the time. Still not sure on Traverse the Ulvenwald even if it did come in hand (if not just to pump goyf), and oath of nissa has overperformed.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG