Thats an awesome report Dcoop64 may I say congratulations on your finish. Im curious about your full list it sounds pretty general although I'm really interested in your side board. I say we're evenly matched with the eldrazi deck tilting either way depending on the variation of it. You bring up some really good points I'm looking forward to hearing from you again
Hi all there's a very interesting article on modern nexus right now. It goes through how eldrazi aren't an unbeatable deck and they use knightfall as an example combo deck to beat it. This was just a brief summary and I would suggest everyone read it and come back with comments and suggestions. Here's the link http://modernnexus.com/seeking-company-broken-metagame/
Ok, it's time for more spreadsheet spam from my simulator. I took a bit of a break before posting these results. The were compiled over 10,000 games per deck, play/draw, and nearly 41,200 total decks analyzed for just over 820 million goldfished games analyzed, hopefully it gives some insights. Links are screenshots of the top 25 decks in each category. If anyone wants to look at them in spreadsheet form for their own information here's the raw data, just open with a spreadsheet and separate columns by tabs.
Draw https://www.dropbox.com/s/tflyunjsslh2zpf/KnightfallWide10000gamesDraw.txt?dl=0
Play https://www.dropbox.com/s/02o0xyn0xz77n6h/KnightfallWide10000gamesPlay.txt?dl=0
I did something different with this data and included in each deck between 5 and 6 extra removal spells. The simulator never actually cast these since there wasn't a target to do so, but they do still count as cards in deck construction. They're labeled in my data as Path but it could just as easily be Condemn, Oust, Celestial Flare, or anything else, so between these and burn spells you're looking at 9-12 removal spells per deck, which should be somewhat accurate.
The first category I want to show is the fastest win on the play. For those who didn't read my previous posts on the subject, the reason I'm posing the top several decks rather than the top deck is because variance is a thing in Magic and it's important to look at the similarities/differences of several top lists. http://imgur.com/DARTkYv
Because of my sort parameters on these, the 5 path decks will naturally be faster than the 6 path decks which should only make sense. I'll save the spam and not post the top 25 with 6 paths but instead I'll just write down the results. On the play the average win turn goes up by 0.035 turns and the cut is a bear. On the draw the average win turn goes up by 0.04 turns and the cut is a Retreat to Coralhelm.
Next I want to talk about what deck combos early the most often. Nothing is able to turn 3 a consistent amount, with the highest on the play combo being 509 times out of 10,000 games but there are decks that win early and often. For this I'm going to use the sum of the decks turn 3 and turn 4 wins. These decks are slightly slower than the fastest decks but not by much. They have a high rate of comboing to win the game (around 29%) but the turn 3's don't show up too often, it's mainly a list of what does the best on turn 4.
Play http://imgur.com/4qoIcjM
Overall, I think it's most useful to look at the fastest decks and then to look at the decks most likely to combo if it's a bad matchup. A good game 1 configuration probably involves maximizing for the play and games 2/3 involve whatever you'll be on in that game.
Last, I want to talk about land counts. If you look at these results, alongside my previous results the first thing that will jump out at you is that the counts are very high. I've checked and double checked why they're so much higher than the traditional amounts and I'm pretty sure at this point that it's not a flaw in my logic, it's just something revealed through testing. I'm not really sure how I lean on that right now. In the play data, you can drop 4 lands for 4 mana dorks and see about a 0.1 turn slowdown in your games, but the starts are much faster and they appear to be less reliant on the combo.
Here for example are the top 25 fastest decks on the play with 4 mana dorks included. http://imgur.com/L9Mey6K
What this makes me think more than anything is that utility lands are better than we usually give them credit for being. Horizon Canopy seems way too good to pass up now, and if you have red even Blighted Gorge looks pretty solid given how much this data suggests burn spells are what you want.
My main thought is that a deck like this is poise
Hi all there's a very interesting article on modern nexus right now. It goes through how eldrazi aren't an unbeatable deck and they use knightfall as an example combo deck to beat it. This was just a brief summary and I would suggest everyone read it and come back with comments and suggestions. Here's the link http://modernnexus.com/seeking-company-broken-metagame/
I had similar thoughts which is why I'm now playing the deck. Where you want to be in the format (and this was true pre ban as well) is aggressive with a combo win.
I really love his way of thinking! What i'm now really really interested in, is how are you currently building your deck using all this data?
What does your deck look like?´
How many lands are you running?
What creatures and how many?
I have several updates planned to this approach, each deck requires it's own simulator to run because the strategy (basically just the algorithm for what casting priority cards have) changes by cards included and goal. Right now I'm writing one in a different style for Legacy Burn (I'm trying to empirically answer the question of Sensei's Divining Tops or not, and if so how many) which lets me make several enhancements, most notably results going to a database rather than a spreadsheet (and ultimately a web form for anyone to easily query results), the ability to have some minor interaction from opponents (blockers, removal spells, maybe counterspells... think a generic midrange deck or a control deck, aggro vs aggro is oddly enough the hardest to do), alongside changes to manabase construction for fetches vs non fetches. Those enhancements will all be moved over to the program for this one as well but it takes time.
My Burn one will probably take another 1.5 weeks depending on how much time I spend on it, then time to run games (though I can do that part while writing the other one), so we're talking probably 1-2 months to make the updates to the Knightfall program that I wish to make.
Anyways on to the deck, I just played a tournament Saturday, I don't get many opportunities to play Modern lately. I did absolutely horrible in it but that was due to making bad plays rather than most deck choices themselves being bad. Here's the list I went with, I'll save the tournament report because it was extremely bad (we're talking potentially the worst I've ever done at an event in several years), but I will comment on some card choices and what I learned. Note that I played 61, the 61st is probably Pillar of Flame.
So here's what I learned on the various card choices. I went with 23 lands+4 dorks because it lead to a higher number of fast starts, going purely by the numbers I posted above the fastest decks went all the way up to 28 lands with 0 dorks, but 4 dorks over 4 lands was only about 0.1 turns slower while having a healthier mix of combo and non combo wins, and I thought the versatility was worth the speed. Additionally, I couldn't think of another 4 utility lands I wanted. Hierarch makes colored mana which is important but the utility lands were colorless... I think the higher land count with fewer dorks is more defensible in 3 color land. With 4 colors you just can't afford for any of your first 3 land drops to be colorless. The low number of bears is another reason I used 4 dorks, I was already skipping 2 drops so I needed 3's to cast. Anyways onto specific cards:
1. As the simulator suggested, Blighted Gorge was fantastic. Tutoring removal is great and mana acceleration or Knight combo mana is just enough to get you to activations. Gorge won me 2 games (once tutored, once drawn) and could have won me another had I sequenced my turn better. I think this is a 4 color only option, Naya tries to close the game out too fast and Bant can't pay the red. Similar logic should hold true for a version using black with Blighted Fen.
2. Cathedral of War was horrible, I was experimenting with various land toolbox cards and unlike Gorge this one didn't work out at all. The manabase can handle the second colorless land but this isn't the one you want it to be. Kessig is just so much better, and any option needs to not come into play tapped.
3. Stirring Wildwood and Horizon Canopy rounded out the land toolbox and were fantastic.
4. The colored mana sources didn't work. I took way too much damage from my lands (especially mid combo), and the colors didn't come together. I needed more fetches because twice in 6 rounds my land drops demanded I get a Steam Vents which isn't in there, and not being a Forest/Plains is a bad include anyways. I also felt like I needed more basics, and more fetches. I'm not sure if this is an excuse to goto 3 colors, to add more lands up to the suggested 28ish, or both. More fetches or Ghost Quarter seem important though, Knight just wasn't getting fed well enough.
5. Meddling Mage was better than Voice in the field I faced, I wished the numbers were reversed. A split is definitely right though so that Collected Company has the potential to hit what you need.
6. I'm rethinking the whole Retreat plan, I only comboed once and it honestly wasn't even all that good when I did. Every other time my life total was too pressured to combo.
7. Celestial Flare is something of a pet card, when I played against Bogles round 2 and got a free game 1 win off of it I was happy it was there. My opponent actually got a judge to deck check me on it he was so surprised. That's why I like the card though, no one ever expects it and it is by far the best edict in the format. Plus, once you show it a single time it's a very easy card to bluff in future games which makes it the perfect game 1 card.
Now for the sideboard
8. Retreat to Coralhelm was a waste of a slot, I never once brought in the third copy. In hindsight I'm not sure where I ever would. Wanting the extra copy would imply my opponent isn't pressuring my life total and doesn't have some way to interact with a Knight. If that's what's happening, why not just have another threat instead?
9. Worship was... interesting. It has a great interaction with Geist of Saint Traft and while it prevented me from losing several games it didn't actually provide me with an opening to win the game. I drew it in every round I brought it in, and every time I played it (which was most games as I drew it a lot) the game went to a draw.
10. Destructive Revelry should have been a Reclamation Sage, I just didn't remember that card existed until the middle of the event.
KOTR can find all these utility lands. Some are quite useful in different metas. How do you feel about Arena? To slow? Too cute? Could be good in a midrange filled meta. Not sure, but the card is flavorful and I'd love to send a huge Knight into the arena to slay some Goyfs and whatnot.
If you were to run that high an amount of extra land cards - would it be an idea to maybe go by the idea many pages ago with dredge knight? - having lightning axe to discard lands - life from the loam to get them back?
KOTR can find all these utility lands. Some are quite useful in different metas. How do you feel about Arena? To slow? Too cute? Could be good in a midrange filled meta. Not sure, but the card is flavorful and I'd love to send a huge Knight into the arena to slay some Goyfs and whatnot.
I Currently run two Dromoka's command just for this little interaction and it's helped me many times. Sometimes you just need that little extra +1/+1
If you were to run that high an amount of extra land cards - would it be an idea to maybe go by the idea many pages ago with dredge knight? - having lightning axe to discard lands - life from the loam to get them back?
Maybe, but Knight is pretty slow as is, slowing it down further with Loam means you don't want the red cards that provide aggression, which pushes you back to Bant.
The more I use it, the more I'm liking Blighted Gorge. I won a round against Affinity today because I was able to Gorge an Etched Champion. I had no cards in hand so my opponent moved in on a Ravager to pump him up and end the game, and in response I tutored up Gorge and killed it.
Hey guys. I'm playing in GP Bologna this weekend and I would love to hear some insight regarding the Eldrazi matchup. So far I've only played once against it since in my LGS there arent that many. Any tips would be appreciated.
You might want to adjust your deck to have some number of Loxodon Smiter or Wilt-Leaf Lieges since They don't lose value off of a Reality Smasher. Don't combo off if the opponent has Eldrazi Displacer mana open. Pack a little more removal than you normally would, maybe 1-2 extra Dismembers.
I'm thinking about cutting the reflector mage for a Vendilion Clique as a way to get a little bit more interaction. Also, I'm not sure if I should include somewhere in the SB a copy of Eidolon of Rethoric. Thoughts on this?
So I've just starting playing this deck in MTGO. I've had enormous success with it after making the switch from UWR Control (I'm sorry, part of me will always love you), but I've been really wondering; Tarmogoyfs or Smiters? Or perhaps something else entirely for that slot? I've been playing with Goyfs so far, and sometimes they just over perform by dropping out of Collected Companies as 4/5's or 5/6's pretty consistently. Other times though, I do wish they were Smiters, specifically against Control, where they tend to be countered if hard-casted, or they just don't get very big because not much is hitting the graveyards. I am also curious as to how necessary people think the Voices are? I've been playing 2, and I just don't really like them. It seems that apart from those Control matchups, they just end up chump blocking, which is fine, but I just don't feel like I'm getting enough value out of it. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Anyways, I ask this because I'm looking into building this deck in paper, and it would be great to have some opinions before I drop $1k+ on a new deck.
Other than all that, I'm absolutely loving this deck, and I can't wait to improve with it.
I like Smiter over goyfs. The can't be countered does come up and and being able to put smiter into play off of a Liliana is cool. Against eldrazi you can path their reality smasher and discard smiter into play which is an amazing play. I play 4x voices just because they are good in many matchups and often the token is much bigger than the voice itself and becomes a good beater for you.
The original thread was closed a while ago due to overlap in discussion with this thread, so I just want to know where the best place to discuss non-combo versions of this deck would be.
I have been off the combo version for quite a while now and have been very happy playing without it, and now with the deck top 8'ing GP Bologna, I have a feeling there could be a resurgence in discussion for the Bant Company decks, but I am unsure that this thread is the place.
@ktkenshinx if you see this, is there any potential for the original Bant Company thread to be unlocked? Or would you consider this to be the place to discuss that deck as well? As someone who has played both extensively, I don't really think they belong in the same thread at this point considering the evolutions of both decks.
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Legacy : WUGBBant DeathbladeBGUW
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
The original thread was closed a while ago due to overlap in discussion with this thread, so I just want to know where the best place to discuss non-combo versions of this deck would be.
I have been off the combo version for quite a while now and have been very happy playing without it, and now with the deck top 8'ing GP Bologna, I have a feeling there could be a resurgence in discussion for the Bant Company decks, but I am unsure that this thread is the place.
@ktkenshinx if you see this, is there any potential for the original Bant Company thread to be unlocked? Or would you consider this to be the place to discuss that deck as well? As someone who has played both extensively, I don't really think they belong in the same thread at this point considering the evolutions of both decks.
Apparently this is the place for that discussion, which is strange. I think it'd make more sense to have a dedicated Value Company thread that could include Company Zoo and such, but that's not up to me.
I did, though, take a look at that GP list and it convinced me to try out 4x Reflector Mage. The card so far feels more impactful than Smiter/Geist/etc. Company into Reflector Mage has been great every time it happened.
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Modern: GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy: GWB Maverick
EDH: GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
Now that Splinter Twin is banned (R.I.P Twin) I've been looking for an alternitive modern deck. And Knightfall looks like a pretty good alternitive It might even fill the hole that Twin left in the meta. This deck seems to solve some of the problems that Twin had, Twin splashed black or green to play tarmogoyf or tasigur in order to fight midrange stompy decks and we have no shortage of good creatures to block with.
Twin chould win pre-board without the combo but our deck can do it much better Maybe we should consider running the retreats in the side board and only playing the combo when it's favrable, to catch our opponents off guard. Just like how twin could board the combo out we might want to board the combo in and just be a bant collected deck pre-board.
I think that the deck chould be teir one and that twin was just holding it down as the superior combo deck.
This is the list I have so far I haven't been able to play with it so far but hopefully soon.
Spells:
4 path to exile
4 collected company
3 retreat to coarlalhelm
creatures:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxadon Smiter
3 Birds of Paradise
4 noble hierarch
3 Geist of Saintraft
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 eternal witness
2 reflector Mage
lands:
4 Flooded strand
4 windswept Heath
1 breeding pool
1 hallowed fountain
1 temple garden
1 gavony township
1 seheri step
1 horizon canopy
4 plains
4 forest
IDK if it's a good idea to play flip jace because he's not as easy to flip, but he has proven his power level. (Just some thought) I'm exited for the future of this deck (maybe after the eldrazi get banned).
IDK if it's a good idea to play flip jace because he's not as easy to flip, but he has proven his power level. (Just some thought) I'm exited for the future of this deck (maybe after the eldrazi get banned).
Something to note, Bant Company/Knightfall actually have a good match-up against the Eldrazi decks. It may not be terribly one sided, but we're one of the few decks that don't struggle against them.
Now that Splinter Twin is banned (R.I.P Twin) I've been looking for an alternitive modern deck. And Knightfall looks like a pretty good alternitive It might even fill the hole that Twin left in the meta. This deck seems to solve some of the problems that Twin had, Twin splashed black or green to play tarmogoyf or tasigur in order to fight midrange stompy decksand we have no shortage of good creatures to block with.
Twin chould win pre-board without the combo but our deck can do it much better Maybe we should consider running the retreats in the side board and only playing the combo when it's favrable, to catch our opponents off guard. Just like how twin could board the combo out we might want to board the combo in and just be a bant collected deck pre-board.
I think that the deck chould be teir one and that twin was just holding it down as the superior combo deck.
I need to tell you, I spent half an hour trying to figure out what "midrange stompy decksand" was until I realized it was a typo, then proceeded to laugh aloud in a crowded restaurant at the sillyness. Thank you.
IDK if it's a good idea to play flip jace because he's not as easy to flip, but he has proven his power level. (Just some thought) I'm exited for the future of this deck (maybe after the eldrazi get banned).
Something to note, Bant Company/Knightfall actually have a good match-up against the Eldrazi decks. It may not be terribly one sided, but we're one of the few decks that don't struggle against them.
This might be one of the few decks that can get big enough to block down early enough. But only if e can get a turn one mana dork. We can probably only beat them consistently if there on a slower draw (aka no turn two thought knout seer). But we can board in worship to beat them post board. I don't see this deck being better then eldrazi right now at least. But good point.
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http://modernnexus.com/seeking-company-broken-metagame/
Draw
https://www.dropbox.com/s/tflyunjsslh2zpf/KnightfallWide10000gamesDraw.txt?dl=0
Play
https://www.dropbox.com/s/02o0xyn0xz77n6h/KnightfallWide10000gamesPlay.txt?dl=0
I did something different with this data and included in each deck between 5 and 6 extra removal spells. The simulator never actually cast these since there wasn't a target to do so, but they do still count as cards in deck construction. They're labeled in my data as Path but it could just as easily be Condemn, Oust, Celestial Flare, or anything else, so between these and burn spells you're looking at 9-12 removal spells per deck, which should be somewhat accurate.
The first category I want to show is the fastest win on the play. For those who didn't read my previous posts on the subject, the reason I'm posing the top several decks rather than the top deck is because variance is a thing in Magic and it's important to look at the similarities/differences of several top lists.
http://imgur.com/DARTkYv
Next is the top deck on the draw
http://imgur.com/ZjSh862
Because of my sort parameters on these, the 5 path decks will naturally be faster than the 6 path decks which should only make sense. I'll save the spam and not post the top 25 with 6 paths but instead I'll just write down the results. On the play the average win turn goes up by 0.035 turns and the cut is a bear. On the draw the average win turn goes up by 0.04 turns and the cut is a Retreat to Coralhelm.
Next I want to talk about what deck combos early the most often. Nothing is able to turn 3 a consistent amount, with the highest on the play combo being 509 times out of 10,000 games but there are decks that win early and often. For this I'm going to use the sum of the decks turn 3 and turn 4 wins. These decks are slightly slower than the fastest decks but not by much. They have a high rate of comboing to win the game (around 29%) but the turn 3's don't show up too often, it's mainly a list of what does the best on turn 4.
Play
http://imgur.com/4qoIcjM
Draw
http://imgur.com/VDNBfCN
It's interesting to me that Geist doesn't show up in these decks.
Overall, I think it's most useful to look at the fastest decks and then to look at the decks most likely to combo if it's a bad matchup. A good game 1 configuration probably involves maximizing for the play and games 2/3 involve whatever you'll be on in that game.
Last, I want to talk about land counts. If you look at these results, alongside my previous results the first thing that will jump out at you is that the counts are very high. I've checked and double checked why they're so much higher than the traditional amounts and I'm pretty sure at this point that it's not a flaw in my logic, it's just something revealed through testing. I'm not really sure how I lean on that right now. In the play data, you can drop 4 lands for 4 mana dorks and see about a 0.1 turn slowdown in your games, but the starts are much faster and they appear to be less reliant on the combo.
Here for example are the top 25 fastest decks on the play with 4 mana dorks included.
http://imgur.com/L9Mey6K
And on the draw
http://imgur.com/92CuXAu
What this makes me think more than anything is that utility lands are better than we usually give them credit for being. Horizon Canopy seems way too good to pass up now, and if you have red even Blighted Gorge looks pretty solid given how much this data suggests burn spells are what you want.
My main thought is that a deck like this is poise
I had similar thoughts which is why I'm now playing the deck. Where you want to be in the format (and this was true pre ban as well) is aggressive with a combo win.
I really love his way of thinking! What i'm now really really interested in, is how are you currently building your deck using all this data?
What does your deck look like?´
How many lands are you running?
What creatures and how many?
I have several updates planned to this approach, each deck requires it's own simulator to run because the strategy (basically just the algorithm for what casting priority cards have) changes by cards included and goal. Right now I'm writing one in a different style for Legacy Burn (I'm trying to empirically answer the question of Sensei's Divining Tops or not, and if so how many) which lets me make several enhancements, most notably results going to a database rather than a spreadsheet (and ultimately a web form for anyone to easily query results), the ability to have some minor interaction from opponents (blockers, removal spells, maybe counterspells... think a generic midrange deck or a control deck, aggro vs aggro is oddly enough the hardest to do), alongside changes to manabase construction for fetches vs non fetches. Those enhancements will all be moved over to the program for this one as well but it takes time.
My Burn one will probably take another 1.5 weeks depending on how much time I spend on it, then time to run games (though I can do that part while writing the other one), so we're talking probably 1-2 months to make the updates to the Knightfall program that I wish to make.
Anyways on to the deck, I just played a tournament Saturday, I don't get many opportunities to play Modern lately. I did absolutely horrible in it but that was due to making bad plays rather than most deck choices themselves being bad. Here's the list I went with, I'll save the tournament report because it was extremely bad (we're talking potentially the worst I've ever done at an event in several years), but I will comment on some card choices and what I learned. Note that I played 61, the 61st is probably Pillar of Flame.
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Temple Garden
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
1 Breeding Pool
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Blighted Gorge
1 Cathedral of War
1 Stirring Wildwood
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Enchantment 2
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
Spells 14
3 Collected Company
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Pillar of Flame
4 Path to Exile
2 Celestial Flare
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
2 Stony Silence
1 Crumble to Dust
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Spellskite
1 Deflecting Palm
1 Worship
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Gut Shot
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Destructive Revelry
So here's what I learned on the various card choices. I went with 23 lands+4 dorks because it lead to a higher number of fast starts, going purely by the numbers I posted above the fastest decks went all the way up to 28 lands with 0 dorks, but 4 dorks over 4 lands was only about 0.1 turns slower while having a healthier mix of combo and non combo wins, and I thought the versatility was worth the speed. Additionally, I couldn't think of another 4 utility lands I wanted. Hierarch makes colored mana which is important but the utility lands were colorless... I think the higher land count with fewer dorks is more defensible in 3 color land. With 4 colors you just can't afford for any of your first 3 land drops to be colorless. The low number of bears is another reason I used 4 dorks, I was already skipping 2 drops so I needed 3's to cast. Anyways onto specific cards:
1. As the simulator suggested, Blighted Gorge was fantastic. Tutoring removal is great and mana acceleration or Knight combo mana is just enough to get you to activations. Gorge won me 2 games (once tutored, once drawn) and could have won me another had I sequenced my turn better. I think this is a 4 color only option, Naya tries to close the game out too fast and Bant can't pay the red. Similar logic should hold true for a version using black with Blighted Fen.
2. Cathedral of War was horrible, I was experimenting with various land toolbox cards and unlike Gorge this one didn't work out at all. The manabase can handle the second colorless land but this isn't the one you want it to be. Kessig is just so much better, and any option needs to not come into play tapped.
3. Stirring Wildwood and Horizon Canopy rounded out the land toolbox and were fantastic.
4. The colored mana sources didn't work. I took way too much damage from my lands (especially mid combo), and the colors didn't come together. I needed more fetches because twice in 6 rounds my land drops demanded I get a Steam Vents which isn't in there, and not being a Forest/Plains is a bad include anyways. I also felt like I needed more basics, and more fetches. I'm not sure if this is an excuse to goto 3 colors, to add more lands up to the suggested 28ish, or both. More fetches or Ghost Quarter seem important though, Knight just wasn't getting fed well enough.
5. Meddling Mage was better than Voice in the field I faced, I wished the numbers were reversed. A split is definitely right though so that Collected Company has the potential to hit what you need.
6. I'm rethinking the whole Retreat plan, I only comboed once and it honestly wasn't even all that good when I did. Every other time my life total was too pressured to combo.
7. Celestial Flare is something of a pet card, when I played against Bogles round 2 and got a free game 1 win off of it I was happy it was there. My opponent actually got a judge to deck check me on it he was so surprised. That's why I like the card though, no one ever expects it and it is by far the best edict in the format. Plus, once you show it a single time it's a very easy card to bluff in future games which makes it the perfect game 1 card.
Now for the sideboard
8. Retreat to Coralhelm was a waste of a slot, I never once brought in the third copy. In hindsight I'm not sure where I ever would. Wanting the extra copy would imply my opponent isn't pressuring my life total and doesn't have some way to interact with a Knight. If that's what's happening, why not just have another threat instead?
9. Worship was... interesting. It has a great interaction with Geist of Saint Traft and while it prevented me from losing several games it didn't actually provide me with an opening to win the game. I drew it in every round I brought it in, and every time I played it (which was most games as I drew it a lot) the game went to a draw.
10. Destructive Revelry should have been a Reclamation Sage, I just didn't remember that card existed until the middle of the event.
Maybe, but Knight is pretty slow as is, slowing it down further with Loam means you don't want the red cards that provide aggression, which pushes you back to Bant.
The more I use it, the more I'm liking Blighted Gorge. I won a round against Affinity today because I was able to Gorge an Etched Champion. I had no cards in hand so my opponent moved in on a Ravager to pump him up and end the game, and in response I tutored up Gorge and killed it.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Collected Company
1 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
Creatures
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Eternal Witness
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxodon Smiter
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Reflector Mage
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Hushwing Gryff
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Spellskite
2 Izzet Staticaster
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
I'm thinking about cutting the reflector mage for a Vendilion Clique as a way to get a little bit more interaction. Also, I'm not sure if I should include somewhere in the SB a copy of Eidolon of Rethoric. Thoughts on this?
Other than all that, I'm absolutely loving this deck, and I can't wait to improve with it.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/modern-archives/modern-archives-established/607416-bant-company-5-2015-12-2015?page=10
The original thread was closed a while ago due to overlap in discussion with this thread, so I just want to know where the best place to discuss non-combo versions of this deck would be.
I have been off the combo version for quite a while now and have been very happy playing without it, and now with the deck top 8'ing GP Bologna, I have a feeling there could be a resurgence in discussion for the Bant Company decks, but I am unsure that this thread is the place.
@ktkenshinx if you see this, is there any potential for the original Bant Company thread to be unlocked? Or would you consider this to be the place to discuss that deck as well? As someone who has played both extensively, I don't really think they belong in the same thread at this point considering the evolutions of both decks.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Apparently this is the place for that discussion, which is strange. I think it'd make more sense to have a dedicated Value Company thread that could include Company Zoo and such, but that's not up to me.
I did, though, take a look at that GP list and it convinced me to try out 4x Reflector Mage. The card so far feels more impactful than Smiter/Geist/etc. Company into Reflector Mage has been great every time it happened.
GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
Twin chould win pre-board without the combo but our deck can do it much better Maybe we should consider running the retreats in the side board and only playing the combo when it's favrable, to catch our opponents off guard. Just like how twin could board the combo out we might want to board the combo in and just be a bant collected deck pre-board.
I think that the deck chould be teir one and that twin was just holding it down as the superior combo deck.
This is the list I have so far I haven't been able to play with it so far but hopefully soon.
Spells:
4 path to exile
4 collected company
3 retreat to coarlalhelm
creatures:
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Loxadon Smiter
3 Birds of Paradise
4 noble hierarch
3 Geist of Saintraft
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 eternal witness
2 reflector Mage
lands:
4 Flooded strand
4 windswept Heath
1 breeding pool
1 hallowed fountain
1 temple garden
1 gavony township
1 seheri step
1 horizon canopy
4 plains
4 forest
IDK if it's a good idea to play flip jace because he's not as easy to flip, but he has proven his power level. (Just some thought) I'm exited for the future of this deck (maybe after the eldrazi get banned).
Something to note, Bant Company/Knightfall actually have a good match-up against the Eldrazi decks. It may not be terribly one sided, but we're one of the few decks that don't struggle against them.
I need to tell you, I spent half an hour trying to figure out what "midrange stompy decksand" was until I realized it was a typo, then proceeded to laugh aloud in a crowded restaurant at the sillyness. Thank you.
This might be one of the few decks that can get big enough to block down early enough. But only if e can get a turn one mana dork. We can probably only beat them consistently if there on a slower draw (aka no turn two thought knout seer). But we can board in worship to beat them post board. I don't see this deck being better then eldrazi right now at least. But good point.