I wouldn't play bant without Geist. It's just too good in the early game. A geist T2 with hierarch is a huge problem for most decks, and probably our best play when we don't have the combo in opening hand.
Currently working on the below list after dismantling Temur Twin. Have only gotten about 20-30 games in via X-Mage but so far the deck fells promising and fulfills the Aggro-Tempo-Combo that I love.. Anyone doing anything similar? -
You are really going to want to have 4 Hierarch's. A turn 1 manadork is really needed in the deck. The established deck does play different than Twin which is what it looks like you're going for. Trying to mash up the tempo plan and the beatdown plan is tough to do like RUG Twin had. I don't feel this deck is going to be able to function better as a beatdown just because you threw in the combo. I'd suggest dropping the snaps and going more down the creature route.
Disagree completely. Geist is a MD card imo, unless rhox war monk is better in a specific meta with lots of burn. 3 Geist is optimal, and makes the deck stronger. Make no mistake, this deck must have a fast clock to compete. We don't have the cards to protect the combo efficiently so we need to keep them pressured. Moreover, geist is great for a finishing blow as the angel can get pumped with kessig.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I really enjoy this deck at the moment, but I have been testing this deck out against the new Mono-black eldrazi deck. This deck gets smashed by that deck and I have real trouble against it. I've been trying to figure out some hate cards against that deck but I cannot think of any. The deck, I'm currently running is:
Creatures:
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble H
3 Lotus Cobra
3 Gheist
4 KoTR
4 Voice of Resurgence
Non-Creature Spells:
4 Paths
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Peek
3 Retreat
Possible solutions would be adding more ghost quarters in the main board, but I would find this very difficult to fix up. I just feel the graveyard hate is really powerful against Knightfall. And their ramp is too real. Oblivion sower is just....
Remand is useless against eldrazi, therefore that would be replaced with sideboard cards.
Also Retreat would be taken out because graveyard hate is too strong in that deck.
What are some possible solutions?
Had the same problems here, we played today. My friend tested BW Eldrazi with the new eldrazis from OGW and i tried some knightfall lists, i got crushed, i only slowed him down with Crumble to Dust, i think crumble to dust is too late at turn 3 when he can cast Oblivion Sower/Thought-Knot Seer/Reality Smasher. Then we tried out other sb obtions,Bonfire of the Damned, Banefire, Gaddock Teeg, the red spells haven't done anything, Gaddock Teeg can easily get killed with Wasteland Strangler or any black removals. I also tried Crucible of Worlds, but they'll propably exile your stuff before you can play them, Torpor Orb only stops Thought-Knot Seer. I haven't found out what the solution is against it, but we should prepare, this deck is on fire right now.
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Modern: GWUKnightfall WUSpirits GWBCounters Company
Legacy: WBGR Aggro Loam
A big help against the Eldrazi menace might be Magus of the Moon, especially in a CoCo shell. Fiend Hunter also bags a threat, Wall of Omens can just roadblock and cantrip, and if you see the games going long enough, maybe even Austere Command.
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Generation 15: The first time you see this, add it to your sig, but add 1 to the number. Call it a social experiment.
The issue I see with magus is how easy it is to kill with something like wasteland strangler. Blood moon is probably better, leyline of sanctity is probably better yet since so much of eldrazi effects target.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
One suggestion I have is to avoid playing burrenton forge-tender out of respect for Kozilek's Return. I think we are priced into playing Dromoka's command for the intended effect, or just playing a bit smarter and expect the sweepers. I don't know how many anger of the gods and pyroclasms will becomes kozilek's return, but a game where you drop the forge tender and get hit with the colourless spell is going to feel really bad.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
My bant version of this deck sideboard now looks like this:
4 lelyline of Sanctity - Run four to HOPE that it's in my starting hand. Stops being burn, Inquistioned, THoughtseize, liliana and also gives Mono Black Eldrazi a hard time. Since most of their cards target player's graveyard.
2 Gaddock Teeg - Prevents the big bad planeswalkers from TRON and scapeshift. (Still thinking if he should be in SB)
2 Aven Mindcensor - Slows Tron down and other decks that tutors alot.
3 Crumble to Dust - With the rise of Tron, there must be an answer to their lands. Also good against Mono Black Eldrazi. ( I splash one sacred foundry in Mainboard just for this)
2 Stoney Silence - Hate for Affinity and also good against tron's Artifact board wipes
2 Burrenton Forge Tender - Slows burn alot, stops their creatures in their tracks and can prevent red board wipes. However does not stop Kozilek's Return.
My bant version of this deck sideboard now looks like this:
4 lelyline of Sanctity - Run four to HOPE that it's in my starting hand. Stops being burn, Inquistioned, THoughtseize, liliana and also gives Mono Black Eldrazi a hard time. Since most of their cards target player's graveyard.
2 Gaddock Teeg - Prevents the big bad planeswalkers from TRON and scapeshift. (Still thinking if he should be in SB)
2 Aven Mindcensor - Slows Tron down and other decks that tutors alot.
3 Crumble to Dust - With the rise of Tron, there must be an answer to their lands. Also good against Mono Black Eldrazi. ( I splash one sacred foundry in Mainboard just for this)
2 Stoney Silence - Hate for Affinity and also good against tron's Artifact board wipes
2 Burrenton Forge Tender - Slows burn alot, stops their creatures in their tracks and can prevent red board wipes. However does not stop Kozilek's Return.
What do you guys think?
I like it, but I would consider cutting a Burrenton Forge-Tender and a Crumble to Dust, to make room for 2 Celestial Flare. We have very little that interacts with Infect and Boggles. A flare is great against huge blockers as well, such as eldrazis, Tasigur, Goyfs etc.
Spellskite interacts with Infect and Bogles off the sideboard or main. Bogles and Infect get slowed by taxes like Thalia as well. Bogles is ultimately a smallish percent of the meta. Infect is the bigger deck to worry about with the Twin bannings.
Dromoka's command is a very reasonable middle ground. In the absence of graveyard hate knight can still take down goyf's it can 2 for 1 burn (not a forge tender but still good), provides some intereaction with boggles, and a little bit interaction with infect and affinity. (don't forget Retreat to Coralhelm can also be reasonably effective vs infect if they don't nut us)
As far as running goyf I think that is a mistake as goyf plays similarly to knight and is hurt by the same cards. We're better off with a diversity of threats. The biggest threat to the deck seems like B/x eldrazi. If we can beat that then we are much better positioned. lelyline of Sanctity seems like an excellent sb option against that deck. It might also be worth siding some copies of knight and all the retreat out in the matchup. Their is just so many turn 1 plays they can start on that **** us. Crumble to dust seems pretty useless in every matchup though. It's way to slow to deal with tron and friends. Although it's a bit pricey mana wise I think spreading seas is probably the best solution. It cantrips to help find the combo and still slows them down.
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Hi everyone, it seems that the Bant Company thread was taken down due to overlap with this thread, so I thought this might be the best place to post this even though the following deck has no combo. This is a list that I recently played to a Top 4 finish at a Face to Face games modern 1k tournament in Toronto. The crowd was quite competitive and I think my deck performed quite well. I think that I am going to be moving back to a combo oriented list moving forward, but I think I made the right decision for this tournament to go all in on the value plan. My day went as follows, I would write a more detailed report but I am not great at remembering details of matches after they happened, and this was over a week ago. Key things I remember: the matches vs. Burn were not close. I have still never lost to Burn in a sanctioned match with Bant CoCo or Knightfall (though I believe value CoCo is a bit better against it). The games vs. Eldrazi were not close, but in the other direction. The abzan matchup can be a grindy one and I think comes down to the better draws if both players are around equal skill level. Delver decks are not good when you GQ their red source with a mindcensor in play and they don't have red mana the rest of the game.
Round 1: 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver (1-0 overall)
Round 2: 0-2 vs. BW Eldrazi (1-1 overall)
Round 3: 2-0 vs. Burn (2-1 overall)
Round 4: 2-1 vs. Abzan (3-1 overall)
Round 5: 2-0 vs. Burn (4-1 overall)
Round 6: ID vs. Zoo (4-1-1 overall)
Went into top 8 as 4th seed.
Quarterfinal: 2-1 vs. UR Twin(R.I.P.)
Semifinal: 1-2 vs. Abzan (same guy I beat earlier in the swiss)
Under the impression that the meta is going to shift to a place where many top decks have very important utility lands. I have recently reworked my Knightfall list a little bit and started running 4 Ghost Quarter and 3 Aven Mindcensor maindeck. I haven't had my new list out to any events yet, but I think it will perform reasonably. It has been working out very well for me in testing vs. Infect, Tron, and UR/b Prowess/Delver.
I have been recently experimenting with Aether Vial in the deck. It has a lot of interesting implications such as letting us hold up interaction spells with mana and flash in creatures with the Vial. EoT Knight into Retreat is a much smaller window that the opponent has to interact with our combo. Here is where I am at with the deck currently, I think this could potentially even do without the combo, but I think it is meta dependant. Something to be aware of with this specific land setup, is that you can't technically oneshot the opponent from full life with the number of fetches/forests/plains, but that doesn't come up enough for me to build around it.
Notable md 4 meddling mages, no paths and chord + coco. 4 forge tenders in the side looks loose when kozilek's return starts popping up.
This is a really interesting build. It seems that he is very All-in on the combo with a lot of maindeck protection and tutoring/pseudo-tutoring. If the consistency is high enough to combo every game without getting disrupted, I could see this being a reasonable plan, but my fear is that the assumed backup plan of beatdown looks a lot weaker here. I can't really argue with the all-in combo plan if it works as well as it seems to though. It looks like nearly all of the 5-0 knightfall decks from the past month or so are pretty similar too, with more maindeck protection for the combo, foregoing the disruptive elements and the value beatdown oriented plan. Maybe moving into a meta of big mana decks that can stonewall aggro-midrange pretty quick, and hyper-aggressive decks like Infect and Affinity, we need to be able to try to match their speed in those mirrors and be able to get under the big mana decks before they stabilize.
I personally don't know if I will be testing this type of deck, as I prefer a more hatebear/value oriented approach with a backup combo, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this potentially become more of a default build. For what it's worth, this is also probably the only type of decklist that I think Wolf Run is good in, because in this scenario, you really seem to be relying on one-shotting and sometimes you need that additional pump if you can't get enough land in the yard. Maybe if I feel my meta is becoming too hostile to fair aggro decks I will be forced to try it out.
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Legacy : WUGBBant DeathbladeBGUW
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
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I expect to see a lot of burn, naya zoo, and some Living End in my meta, so I run 3 Voice of Resurgence, 2 Scavenging Ooze, 1 Rhox War Monk and 3 Kitchen Finks main.
If you expect to see a lot of tron and scapeshift, I would run 2 Gaddock Teeg, and 2 Aven Mindcensor in the SB.
Bant Charm is fine against affinity, tron and CoCo decks.
Celestial Flare is probably the best we got against infect and boggles.
Stubborn Denial is a decent option if you run 3-4 Loxodon Smiter main.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Geist is mainboard if you have a lot of ways of enabling him. Typically Jeskai does this best as it packs Path, Bolts/Helix and Snapcasters.
You can overload on Geist enablers like Elspeth, Enchantments, Swords etc. but doing that makes you overly dependant on playing a Geist.
Had the same problems here, we played today. My friend tested BW Eldrazi with the new eldrazis from OGW and i tried some knightfall lists, i got crushed, i only slowed him down with Crumble to Dust, i think crumble to dust is too late at turn 3 when he can cast Oblivion Sower/Thought-Knot Seer/Reality Smasher. Then we tried out other sb obtions,Bonfire of the Damned, Banefire, Gaddock Teeg, the red spells haven't done anything, Gaddock Teeg can easily get killed with Wasteland Strangler or any black removals. I also tried Crucible of Worlds, but they'll propably exile your stuff before you can play them, Torpor Orb only stops Thought-Knot Seer. I haven't found out what the solution is against it, but we should prepare, this deck is on fire right now.
GWUKnightfall
WUSpirits
GWBCounters Company
Legacy:
WBGR Aggro Loam
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Invisible Stalker
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Boar Umbra
4 Oath of Nissa
4 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Unflinching Courage
2 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Blood Moon
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Scavenging Ooze
3 Stony Silence
I'm thinking of playing this when OGW is playable.. What do you guys think?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
GWUKnightfall
WUSpirits
GWBCounters Company
Legacy:
WBGR Aggro Loam
My bant version of this deck sideboard now looks like this:
4 lelyline of Sanctity - Run four to HOPE that it's in my starting hand. Stops being burn, Inquistioned, THoughtseize, liliana and also gives Mono Black Eldrazi a hard time. Since most of their cards target player's graveyard.
2 Gaddock Teeg - Prevents the big bad planeswalkers from TRON and scapeshift. (Still thinking if he should be in SB)
2 Aven Mindcensor - Slows Tron down and other decks that tutors alot.
3 Crumble to Dust - With the rise of Tron, there must be an answer to their lands. Also good against Mono Black Eldrazi. ( I splash one sacred foundry in Mainboard just for this)
2 Stoney Silence - Hate for Affinity and also good against tron's Artifact board wipes
2 Burrenton Forge Tender - Slows burn alot, stops their creatures in their tracks and can prevent red board wipes. However does not stop Kozilek's Return.
What do you guys think?
I like it, but I would consider cutting a Burrenton Forge-Tender and a Crumble to Dust, to make room for 2 Celestial Flare. We have very little that interacts with Infect and Boggles. A flare is great against huge blockers as well, such as eldrazis, Tasigur, Goyfs etc.
As far as running goyf I think that is a mistake as goyf plays similarly to knight and is hurt by the same cards. We're better off with a diversity of threats. The biggest threat to the deck seems like B/x eldrazi. If we can beat that then we are much better positioned. lelyline of Sanctity seems like an excellent sb option against that deck. It might also be worth siding some copies of knight and all the retreat out in the matchup. Their is just so many turn 1 plays they can start on that **** us. Crumble to dust seems pretty useless in every matchup though. It's way to slow to deal with tron and friends. Although it's a bit pricey mana wise I think spreading seas is probably the best solution. It cantrips to help find the combo and still slows them down.
Round 1: 2-1 vs. Grixis Delver (1-0 overall)
Round 2: 0-2 vs. BW Eldrazi (1-1 overall)
Round 3: 2-0 vs. Burn (2-1 overall)
Round 4: 2-1 vs. Abzan (3-1 overall)
Round 5: 2-0 vs. Burn (4-1 overall)
Round 6: ID vs. Zoo (4-1-1 overall)
Went into top 8 as 4th seed.
Quarterfinal: 2-1 vs. UR Twin(R.I.P.)
Semifinal: 1-2 vs. Abzan (same guy I beat earlier in the swiss)
Here was my decklist:
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Geist of Saint Traft
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Loxodon Smiter
2x Rhox War Monk
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
2x Dromoka's Command
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
2x Plains
2x Forest
2x Temple Garden
2x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Gavony Township
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Dispel
1x Negate
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Engineered Explosives
1x Academy Ruins
1x Trinket Mage
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Spellskite
Moving Forward:
Under the impression that the meta is going to shift to a place where many top decks have very important utility lands. I have recently reworked my Knightfall list a little bit and started running 4 Ghost Quarter and 3 Aven Mindcensor maindeck. I haven't had my new list out to any events yet, but I think it will perform reasonably. It has been working out very well for me in testing vs. Infect, Tron, and UR/b Prowess/Delver.
I have been recently experimenting with Aether Vial in the deck. It has a lot of interesting implications such as letting us hold up interaction spells with mana and flash in creatures with the Vial. EoT Knight into Retreat is a much smaller window that the opponent has to interact with our combo. Here is where I am at with the deck currently, I think this could potentially even do without the combo, but I think it is meta dependant. Something to be aware of with this specific land setup, is that you can't technically oneshot the opponent from full life with the number of fetches/forests/plains, but that doesn't come up enough for me to build around it.
4x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Geist of Saint Traft
3x Aven Mindcensor
4x Aether Vial
4x Path to Exile
2x Spell Snare
2x Dromoka's Command
1x Negate
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Flooded Strand
1x Island
1x Plains
1x Forest
2x Temple Garden
2x Breeding Pool
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Sejiri Steppe
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Academy Ruins
1x Moorland Haunt
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Tormod's Crypt
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Spellskite
3x Stony Silence
1x Vendillion Clique
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
the list of cards it shuts down is pretty straggering, not to mention it draws us a card as well.
I'm sure i've missed a couple big ones, but it neuters:
Thoughtseize
IoK
Bolt
Helix
Wasteland Strangler
path
oblivion sower
vendilion clique
thought knot seer
k command
cryptic command
dismember
snag, etc.
Wouldn't work on Eldrazi deck as most eldrazi has "cast" effect.
And some spells you've mention is only when it enters the battlefield such as Thought-knot and Vendillion. So it won't be able to counter it.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/364980#paper
Notable md 4 meddling mages, no paths and chord + coco. 4 forge tenders in the side looks loose when kozilek's return starts popping up.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
This is a really interesting build. It seems that he is very All-in on the combo with a lot of maindeck protection and tutoring/pseudo-tutoring. If the consistency is high enough to combo every game without getting disrupted, I could see this being a reasonable plan, but my fear is that the assumed backup plan of beatdown looks a lot weaker here. I can't really argue with the all-in combo plan if it works as well as it seems to though. It looks like nearly all of the 5-0 knightfall decks from the past month or so are pretty similar too, with more maindeck protection for the combo, foregoing the disruptive elements and the value beatdown oriented plan. Maybe moving into a meta of big mana decks that can stonewall aggro-midrange pretty quick, and hyper-aggressive decks like Infect and Affinity, we need to be able to try to match their speed in those mirrors and be able to get under the big mana decks before they stabilize.
I personally don't know if I will be testing this type of deck, as I prefer a more hatebear/value oriented approach with a backup combo, but I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this potentially become more of a default build. For what it's worth, this is also probably the only type of decklist that I think Wolf Run is good in, because in this scenario, you really seem to be relying on one-shotting and sometimes you need that additional pump if you can't get enough land in the yard. Maybe if I feel my meta is becoming too hostile to fair aggro decks I will be forced to try it out.
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU