I had the classic bant version of knightfall, but now I will add red for sure. With twin gone we can expect a rise in affinity and tron. Might be smart to make room in the SB for Ancient Grudge and Crumble to Dust. What do you think?
I think tron might drop off. Twin always beat up on the decks that give tron problems. Without twin you'll see a rise in those, fast aggro, infect, and other combo. Tron beats down on fair decks like junk and jund. Yep, one side of the rock/scissors/paper balance is gone. Now we'll have to see how things shake out.
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Modern UB Tezzerator UBW Gifts B 8Rack
Legacy RB Goblins
Yep. Just realized Sowing Salt was double red, so I changed it to Crumble to Dust. Not sure about Magus of the Moon.. It dies to Pyroclasm and it hurts us as well. I don't want to water out the deck with too many non-creature spells either, so maybe a playset of Reclamation Sage is better than the grudges. I'm thinking Selesnya Charm might be a thing in the SB as well. It helps out the combo plan with pump and trample. Combat trick if Geist gets blocked, and it exiles fatties and plated robots. Worst case scenario, it's a 2/2 at instant speed.
Teeg is good against Tron, but is nonbo with Coco and chord - and Knightfall lists run at least one of those. Meddling mage fills a similar role but is more flexible and works better with your Coco/chord.
Here are some thoughts about the changes to modern, and how we can expect Knightfall to be positioned:
With Splinter Twin gone, linear decks will see a rise. Affinity, Elves, Burn, Infect, Bogles, GrishoalBrand are all decks I expect to see more of. Jund and Abzan don't have the tools to contain this influx, and will drop down to tier 2. With fewer Mid-range decks to pick on, big mana decks will also decrease in prevalence as they lose to the aggro decks. UWx control will be much better positioned in this meta, especially UWR control as bolt-snap-bolt/verdict is powerful against all these strategies.
So I expect to see more linear/aggro and UWR control in tier 1, with Jund and Tron/Eldrazi in tier 2.
This is a situation we can adapt to. We are still a fast combo with our best hands, and we can hang with the aggro coming our way if we adjust a bit. Spellskite and Rhox war monk could easily be maindeck cards in this meta. Qasali pridemage has lost some value as a maindeck card, and I think can be relegated to the SB. Without needing to grind as much, Eternal witness could probably be a more interactive card like Vendilion clique, or Aven Mindcensor as a hoser for tron/eldrazi.
How do these initial impressions resonate? Am I off-base with which cards gain in value and which are losing value?
How do you think the new meta will shape out, and what influence will this new expected meta make on your deckbuilding choices?
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Now that we are talking about going fourcolors again, or maybing just splashing the white for the nacatl and knights. How does Domri Rade look vs Elsbeth, knight errant? The card draw seems better to me then the 1/1 or flying.
Now that we are talking about going fourcolors again, or maybing just splashing the white for the nacatl and knights. How does Domri Rade look vs Elsbeth, knight errant? The card draw seems better to me then the 1/1 or flying.
I like the thought of giving geist pump and flying with Elspeth, Knight-Errant ..however I have chosen to give the "planeswalker spot" to Wilt-Leaf Liege and I like it this far. True, it's not optimal with CoCo, but it gives +2+2 to so many of our creatures. It's also great against Kolaghan's Command and Lilly.
Btw, did you notice the price spike on Hierarchs and Voices? Voice was like 25$ last week.
Now that we are talking about going fourcolors again, or maybing just splashing the white for the nacatl and knights. How does Domri Rade look vs Elsbeth, knight errant? The card draw seems better to me then the 1/1 or flying.
I like the thought of giving geist pump and flying with Elspeth, Knight-Errant ..however I have chosen to give the "planeswalker spot" to Wilt-Leaf Liege and I like it this far. True, it's not optimal with CoCo, but it gives +2+2 to so many of our creatures. It's also great against Kolaghan's Command and Lilly.
Btw, did you notice the price spike on Hierarchs and Voices? Voice was like 25$ last week.
Yea I have seen it too - Noble spiked due to Infect getting better - i think pendelhaven will spike too.
Voice just spiked because it's a good card in a new meta were more will be playing at instant speed and not instant speed into a splinter twin.
I really like wilt-leaf liege too now that I have changed some of my coco to chords. And Elsbeth + domri rade makes me happy, so i think i'm gonna play around with it a bit when OATH becomes legal on Friday, if I can get myself 4 oath of nissa. Then I will play a couple of both of them, the Oath of Nissa can draw it(low chance), and find a creature or land instead. and a commune to the gods so I can find my retreat or my knight or the oath.
I know this takes away a lot of the speed of the deck, but i'm not that afraid of twin anymore, so i'll rather play defensly against affinity, burn, infect, and hopefully find a way to win against tron.
Wall of Omens is a card I could see working in this deck. I like it for bogging down the board and being a cantrip. It has a neat interaction with Resto Angels if you run them as well.
The idea I was thinking of was a find and protect the combo deck with a side of beatdown. I wanted to avoid Geist though as I feel anything is a decent enough beater with supporting bones.
Sometimes I come back to read the recent posts in this thread and kinda shake my head. You don't have to start from scratch when building this deck: we have some players with local results and published lists with good placings.
The decks that do well are either Coco Zoo splashing geist + the combo, or 8 dork bant Coco/chord. Those should be considered the standard build options. We should evolve with the metagame at this point, certainly. I just don't understand this desire to constantly reinvent the wheel here - the deck works very well with either of those builds.
edit: If you are going to try and reinvent the wheel, it seems to me that new technology is really the best reason to try. For instance, I'm going to fool around with Oath of Nissa to see if we can move away from Coco (not sure if we even want to do this). The obvious starting point there is adding the package:serum visions, Oath of Nissa and Tarmogoyf.
Also, restoration angel does not protect the combo. If you try comboing out and the angel removes the knight, you can no longer activate the knight or attack with it. I don't think that is a valuable way of trying to protect the combo. Spellskite and meddling mage are the cards that have been working for that role.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Also, restoration angel does not protect the combo. If you try comboing out and the angel removes the knight, you can no longer activate the knight or attack with it. I don't think that is a valuable way of trying to protect the combo. Spellskite and meddling mage are the cards that have been working for that role.
Neither of those cards are effective beaters to end the game if you're unable to play Knight. The combo works, it's a combo, to me it's about building in redundancies so that the deck works without it while still making the combo a viable part of the deck and not just something tacked on.
You're free to run whatever you want, and build whatever you want.
I want to brew this deck as a Twin-like midrange deck that just uses the Retreat combo as an "oops, I just won" piece, while still very capable of just racing a burn deck or affinity. I still think the dorks are good, I'm looking at Remand, and very likely a Chord toolbox as well. Any suggestions?
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Generation 15: The first time you see this, add it to your sig, but add 1 to the number. Call it a social experiment.
Sometimes I come back to read the recent posts in this thread and kinda shake my head. You don't have to start from scratch when building this deck: we have some players with local results and published lists with good placings.
The decks that do well are either Coco Zoo splashing geist + the combo, or 8 dork bant Coco/chord. Those should be considered the standard build options. We should evolve with the metagame at this point, certainly. I just don't understand this desire to constantly reinvent the wheel here - the deck works very well with either of those builds.
edit: If you are going to try and reinvent the wheel, it seems to me that new technology is really the best reason to try. For instance, I'm going to fool around with Oath of Nissa to see if we can move away from Coco (not sure if we even want to do this). The obvious starting point there is adding the package:serum visions, Oath of Nissa and Tarmogoyf.
Some of us just like brewing, some of us likes the combo but does not like the deck. Some of us have had success in our meta with different cards that have synergy with the cards in the combo. Some of us see a line of play that we really like and wants to test out.
For instance, I want to try the Matter Reshaper, because it hits all permanents in the deck, and draws us our non-permanents. I know that it doesn't work if it's exiled, but only a few in my meta play Exile effects besides Path.
And I also want to try out the Oath of Nissa - but since it also hits Planeswalkers I want to atleast up my chance at drawing a planeswalker. When I up my enchantment amount, and my planeswalker amount the chance of CoCo hitting is reduced.
When CoCo is less good, and I am able to see more of my deck with the Oath and The Domri Rade I just added, i want to have more toolbox creatures - so I'm adding Chord and changing the numbers of my other cards.
This needs testing, just as the ordinary Bant/4C knightfall deck needs more testing(which is why we were just moved back down to deck creation). But I have confidence in the deck for now and I will report back as soon as I attend my first FNM with the cards.
I know that we have good results with the current decklists, but i'm not attending any GP or other major tournaments in the near future, so the little testing of the decklists that I can do at FNM, is to minimal and I would rather help out trying a few unconventional cards.
and there is little to gain at the FNM by winning. So why not use my time at FNM trying out new stuff at the same time that everyone else might be trying new stuff.
FYI - i'm playing the exact same decklist as you have posted, since it's proven to be the best in my meta, when we have local tournaments. We are a small town in a small Country so the tournaments are far and few.
You run 3 KOTR main, 1 in the board. Gives you effectively 7 copies of KOTR. Also gets Supreme Verdict and whatever other sideboard tech you might have. I love it, and I'm very interested to see what comes of it.
But you are now running three KOTR that can come down on turn three, and four that can come down turn four, and can be countered twice(once for the wish, once for the KOTR). and not be a kill till turn five.
BUT never the less, I like that card a lot. I have used it in a different deck to find cards like kitchen finks and rhox war monk for the burn, and gaddock teeg for the tron, stuff like that.
I really enjoy this deck at the moment, but I have been testing this deck out against the new Mono-black eldrazi deck. This deck gets smashed by that deck and I have real trouble against it. I've been trying to figure out some hate cards against that deck but I cannot think of any. The deck, I'm currently running is:
Creatures:
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble H
3 Lotus Cobra
3 Gheist
4 KoTR
4 Voice of Resurgence
Non-Creature Spells:
4 Paths
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Peek
3 Retreat
Possible solutions would be adding more ghost quarters in the main board, but I would find this very difficult to fix up. I just feel the graveyard hate is really powerful against Knightfall. And their ramp is too real. Oblivion sower is just....
Remand is useless against eldrazi, therefore that would be replaced with sideboard cards.
Also Retreat would be taken out because graveyard hate is too strong in that deck.
Currently working on the below list after dismantling Temur Twin. Have only gotten about 20-30 games in via X-Mage but so far the deck fells promising and fulfills the Aggro-Tempo-Combo that I love.. Anyone doing anything similar? -
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Here are some thoughts about the changes to modern, and how we can expect Knightfall to be positioned:
With Splinter Twin gone, linear decks will see a rise. Affinity, Elves, Burn, Infect, Bogles, GrishoalBrand are all decks I expect to see more of. Jund and Abzan don't have the tools to contain this influx, and will drop down to tier 2. With fewer Mid-range decks to pick on, big mana decks will also decrease in prevalence as they lose to the aggro decks. UWx control will be much better positioned in this meta, especially UWR control as bolt-snap-bolt/verdict is powerful against all these strategies.
So I expect to see more linear/aggro and UWR control in tier 1, with Jund and Tron/Eldrazi in tier 2.
This is a situation we can adapt to. We are still a fast combo with our best hands, and we can hang with the aggro coming our way if we adjust a bit. Spellskite and Rhox war monk could easily be maindeck cards in this meta. Qasali pridemage has lost some value as a maindeck card, and I think can be relegated to the SB. Without needing to grind as much, Eternal witness could probably be a more interactive card like Vendilion clique, or Aven Mindcensor as a hoser for tron/eldrazi.
How do these initial impressions resonate? Am I off-base with which cards gain in value and which are losing value?
How do you think the new meta will shape out, and what influence will this new expected meta make on your deckbuilding choices?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Has much progress been made on the deck?
I like the thought of giving geist pump and flying with Elspeth, Knight-Errant ..however I have chosen to give the "planeswalker spot" to Wilt-Leaf Liege and I like it this far. True, it's not optimal with CoCo, but it gives +2+2 to so many of our creatures. It's also great against Kolaghan's Command and Lilly.
Btw, did you notice the price spike on Hierarchs and Voices? Voice was like 25$ last week.
Yea I have seen it too - Noble spiked due to Infect getting better - i think pendelhaven will spike too.
Voice just spiked because it's a good card in a new meta were more will be playing at instant speed and not instant speed into a splinter twin.
I really like wilt-leaf liege too now that I have changed some of my coco to chords. And Elsbeth + domri rade makes me happy, so i think i'm gonna play around with it a bit when OATH becomes legal on Friday, if I can get myself 4 oath of nissa. Then I will play a couple of both of them, the Oath of Nissa can draw it(low chance), and find a creature or land instead. and a commune to the gods so I can find my retreat or my knight or the oath.
I know this takes away a lot of the speed of the deck, but i'm not that afraid of twin anymore, so i'll rather play defensly against affinity, burn, infect, and hopefully find a way to win against tron.
The idea I was thinking of was a find and protect the combo deck with a side of beatdown. I wanted to avoid Geist though as I feel anything is a decent enough beater with supporting bones.
4x Heirarch
4x Visions
4x Omens
2x Pridemate
4x Knight of the Reliquary
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Eternal Witness
4x Restoration Angel
1x Wilt-Leaf Liege
4x Path
4x Coralhelm
24 Land.
That is basically what I'm riffing with.
The decks that do well are either Coco Zoo splashing geist + the combo, or 8 dork bant Coco/chord. Those should be considered the standard build options. We should evolve with the metagame at this point, certainly. I just don't understand this desire to constantly reinvent the wheel here - the deck works very well with either of those builds.
edit: If you are going to try and reinvent the wheel, it seems to me that new technology is really the best reason to try. For instance, I'm going to fool around with Oath of Nissa to see if we can move away from Coco (not sure if we even want to do this). The obvious starting point there is adding the package:serum visions, Oath of Nissa and Tarmogoyf.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Neither of those cards are effective beaters to end the game if you're unable to play Knight. The combo works, it's a combo, to me it's about building in redundancies so that the deck works without it while still making the combo a viable part of the deck and not just something tacked on.
You're free to run whatever you want, and build whatever you want.
Some of us just like brewing, some of us likes the combo but does not like the deck. Some of us have had success in our meta with different cards that have synergy with the cards in the combo. Some of us see a line of play that we really like and wants to test out.
For instance, I want to try the Matter Reshaper, because it hits all permanents in the deck, and draws us our non-permanents. I know that it doesn't work if it's exiled, but only a few in my meta play Exile effects besides Path.
And I also want to try out the Oath of Nissa - but since it also hits Planeswalkers I want to atleast up my chance at drawing a planeswalker. When I up my enchantment amount, and my planeswalker amount the chance of CoCo hitting is reduced.
When CoCo is less good, and I am able to see more of my deck with the Oath and The Domri Rade I just added, i want to have more toolbox creatures - so I'm adding Chord and changing the numbers of my other cards.
This needs testing, just as the ordinary Bant/4C knightfall deck needs more testing(which is why we were just moved back down to deck creation). But I have confidence in the deck for now and I will report back as soon as I attend my first FNM with the cards.
I know that we have good results with the current decklists, but i'm not attending any GP or other major tournaments in the near future, so the little testing of the decklists that I can do at FNM, is to minimal and I would rather help out trying a few unconventional cards.
and there is little to gain at the FNM by winning. So why not use my time at FNM trying out new stuff at the same time that everyone else might be trying new stuff.
FYI - i'm playing the exact same decklist as you have posted, since it's proven to be the best in my meta, when we have local tournaments. We are a small town in a small Country so the tournaments are far and few.
Glittering Wish
You run 3 KOTR main, 1 in the board. Gives you effectively 7 copies of KOTR. Also gets Supreme Verdict and whatever other sideboard tech you might have. I love it, and I'm very interested to see what comes of it.
WUBRG Amulet Titan
WUBRG BTL Scapeshift
WUBRG Jeskai Ascendancy Combo
[mana]WURG
Legacy
UBR TES
UBG Food Chain
EDH
UBR Jeleva Storm
GW Karametra Enchantress
WUBR Breya
BUT never the less, I like that card a lot. I have used it in a different deck to find cards like kitchen finks and rhox war monk for the burn, and gaddock teeg for the tron, stuff like that.
Maybe I'm just jonesing for Living/Burning Wish.
WUBRG Amulet Titan
WUBRG BTL Scapeshift
WUBRG Jeskai Ascendancy Combo
[mana]WURG
Legacy
UBR TES
UBG Food Chain
EDH
UBR Jeleva Storm
GW Karametra Enchantress
WUBR Breya
Creatures:
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble H
3 Lotus Cobra
3 Gheist
4 KoTR
4 Voice of Resurgence
Non-Creature Spells:
4 Paths
4 Remand
4 Serum Visions
2 Peek
3 Retreat
Possible solutions would be adding more ghost quarters in the main board, but I would find this very difficult to fix up. I just feel the graveyard hate is really powerful against Knightfall. And their ramp is too real. Oblivion sower is just....
Remand is useless against eldrazi, therefore that would be replaced with sideboard cards.
Also Retreat would be taken out because graveyard hate is too strong in that deck.
What are some possible solutions?
Currently working on the below list after dismantling Temur Twin. Have only gotten about 20-30 games in via X-Mage but so far the deck fells promising and fulfills the Aggro-Tempo-Combo that I love.. Anyone doing anything similar? -
2x Breeding Pool
4x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
2x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
Enchantment (3)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Dispel
1x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Path to Exile
4x Remand
1x Spell Pierce
1x Spell Snare
Creature (16)
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Noble Hierarch
4x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
1x Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (4)
4x Serum Visions
1x Dispel
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Keranos, God of Storms
2x Negate
1x Path to Exile
2x Pyroclasm
1x Sarkhan Unbroken
1x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
2x Thragtusk