MTG Salvation

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Quote from shiwei87tan »

What do you guys think of Void grafter?

Worse plaxmanta?

Ok not strictly worse, it at least doesn't die from chord/coco. But I don't think going from 2 to 3 mana for 2 toughness and ability to target with chord/coco does much.

It eats etched champion if that's your jam.

While I like my current toolbox-like setup I do think a more zoo-like approach running <4 retreat and 1-2 elspeth is the most competitive at this point. Question that begs to be asked though is whether cutting knight and retreat and going naya zoo isn't just better at that point. Tough...

Quote from shiwei87tan »

What do you guys think of Void grafter?

I'm really excited for it, but I think it depends what shell it's in. I think it promotes a grindy game plan, but doesn't really help against the linear decks as much as other 3 drops would.

Has anyone ever considered or tried having one overgrown tomb and then some thoughtseizes in the SB? this might be too painful considering all the shocks and fetches in the deck

What does everyone think of matter reshaper? I personally think it can be incredible in the less aggressive versions of the deck, and will have us run more colorless lands (e.g. more Kessig Wolf Run and more Gavony Township ) and will act as a great 2 for 1 in grindy matchups, and that's what gets me really excited.

Here is my take on this archetype:




I have been very happy with the deck's performance in testing and will be running it in competitive events shortly.


Thoughts on some of the choices:

- Splashing red for Kessig Wolf-Run is worth it. I miss Gavony Township and the less painful manabase of going straight Bant, but Kessig ensures the combo kill with knight and synergizes really well with the wealth of Exalted creatures in the deck. Having access to Izzet Staticaster in the sideboard is a nice bonus as well.

- Courser of Kruphix is just awesome, but I am only running one due to diminishing returns.

- I decided on Kitchen Finks over Loxodon Smiter because it shines in the same match-ups (Abzan, Jund, Grixis) while giving the deck a better chance against Burn, Affinity and Zoo. Smiter may be better than Finks against Kolaghan's Command but most Grixis and Jund players will either see your hand and won't choose the discard mode if you have a Smiter, or they just will not risk it just in case if you're playing Green and White.

- Incidentally, Kolaghan's Command is the reason I am only running one Spellskite mainboard

- I hear all the criticisms about Sejiri Steppe; it's not often that you can use it to save a creature via Knight or protect your combo (although it's an actual blow-out when it does happen), but I've found that it has enough utility as an extra "spell" to get an attacker across that it's worth running

- Ghost Quarter with Knight of the Reliquary is the real deal against Tron and Infect

Overall I've really enjoyed this build. I find that it has a good balance between aggression, disruption and utility. I haven't found any match-up to be unwinnable, with the possible exception of Amulet Bloom (which hopefully is on its way out of the format). Abzan can be challenging but not unwinnable.

I would appreciate any thoughts or opinions, particularly on the sideboard.

Quote from J_Tenroon »

What does everyone think of matter reshaper? I personally think it can be incredible in the less aggressive versions of the deck, and will have us run more colorless lands (e.g. more Kessig Wolf Run and more Gavony Township ) and will act as a great 2 for 1 in grindy matchups, and that's what gets me really excited.

Matter reshaper seems really powerful and all you have to do is run some pain lands for the colorless

Mangara is pretty expensive and slow removal. It really only shines in flicker lists with Æther Vial, Flickerwisp and Restoration Angel

That would be my thought, but the problem there is that then we're straight-up Bant Midrange. And Eldrazi Processors eats midrange for breakfast. It may be the best option, but it's not great. Which is too bad, because the combo on its face I think makes Knightfall a better adversary for Eldrazi than most other midrange decks, which get smashed.

It might be worth upping Stony Silence to 3 and praying you can shut down their Relics/Spellbombs in time. Then again, they often have enchantment removal anyways. Agency Minecensor in the board, and plenty of Ghost Quarters would go a long ways too.

When I played a (GPT) match against BW Eldrazi, the combo got there game 1 - but that should be a minority of games. I took out most of the combo for game 2, and meddling mage on Wasteland Strangler allowed the beatdown plan to be good enough.

So my SB strategy, I think, was -3 Retreat to coralhelm, -2 Knight of the Reliquary, -1 Eternal Witness, +3 Aven Mindcensor, +2 Meddling Mage, +1 Vendilion clique. This improved the value of collected company post-board which is I think were we want to be.

I had to mull both games, and the opponent kept full 7 both times. I'm not sure if this match is atypical or not, but I had us as dogs in the matchup. I look forward to playing against the deck more to get this matchup figured out.

edit: One thing I will say is that the Bx Eldrazi deck shows us why trying to abuse the GY too much leaves us vulnerable to hate. Just something to think about (we are a GY-based combo after all).

Quote from Deurge »

Is this deck still competitive enough to be T2? Last I heard most players quickly adapted to it and neutering the combo. I really love the idea and would like to play the deck, but I'm not sure I want to invest time and money on something that could soon be unplayable in a competitive environment. Thoughts?

IMO, it's an easy buy-in if you have any designs on Naya Zoo, Abzan, Hatebears, or generally GWx builds since about the only cards you'd need are Retreat (50¢?) and Geist, who has an incoming duel deck printing. Voice, Mindcensor, Pridemage, Skite, CoCo etc. are all format staples. So if that's an archetype that interests you, the deck has a super low additional cost to assemble. You can even make due OK without Misties.

That said, the combo is definitely looking less promising at the moment, and the deck dropped from Tier 2 in December. I imagine it will continue to be a reasonably useful deck, but if you're looking for top-tier material there are definitely safer bets.

I personally play it because I just like the whole deck as it is and we are only 8 at our weekly FNM modern event so it's more or less the same 8-12 decks that see play and i'm okay with it never being tier 1.

I hope the eldrazi reshaper can make the deck a bit more chaotic - forcing some damage through when they don't want it to die and sometimes coco it in and chumb block something big and get something else in play/hand.

At least in my opinion, Knightfall has the tools to be a serious contender. It's number 1 problem at the moment is that there are really not many people on the deck - especially at the highest profile events. Second, is that we've not seen a really great finish at a GP or PT yet.

We are destined to go back to developing until we see more people on the deck, and hit a good finish.

What do people think of Sylvan Advocate as a value beater that hits off Coco and is OK early but great late? I often see myself at 6 lands versus decks that exploit goyf and Tas. Goyf us underwhelming most of the time in this deck, and usually hits as a 2/3 or 3/4.. Sylvan fits the theme more, vigilance is relevant versus fast aggro, and the ability fits our shell. I'm not saying it's an auto include, but it seems to be a reasonable test option, as does Nissa's oath (for pilots on a split of retreat and elspeth, it digs 3 deep and can stabilize mana for a cost of 1 green, which is great, though I haven't done the math yet). Any thoughts?

Seems pretty mediocre in a vacuum, and when you compare to our other options I really have to wonder why you feel it deserves consideration. Tarmogoyf, Voice of Resurgence, Qasali Pridemage, Scavenging Ooze and Spellskite are our top 2 drops.

Why does Sylvan Advocate deserve to be compared to those options? What other cards will see the axe to bring it in? I just don't see any value in a kird ape with vigilence for 2 cmc. Sure, it has upside if the game gets to turn 6, but it looks really bad until that happens.

IMHO, the card is far too weak for us to think about longer than realizing that turn 6 is the earliest this thing isn't kird ape with vigilence at 2 cmc.

My opinion has always been that goyf doesn't belong and is underwhelming, and I make the same suggestions you just did as to cards I rather play. I've had a stable and what I feel is solid list for awhile with 2 Steppe Lynx, a Voice and a Pridemage over goyf (those lynx put in work btw and let me save some life when busting the combo).

The vigilance is useful because you can both prevent damage and exert pressure against fast aggro. Goyf comes out a 2/3, but he usually scales only to 3/4 when you need him to be a 4/5 (it's rare he hits 5/6). In mu's that go long you should be eating the yard (which shrinks your goyf) and opponents will play graveyard hate against us (which shrinks your goyf or render it useless). If you're running courser and stirring wild, it's common to sit at 6 lands, and a giant stirring wild sounds sick (play advocate into a stirring wild swing). He would be a 2-of, and can be filtered away with coco.

Don't get confused, I'm not trying to compare this card to goyf itself, I'm saying it's interesting to test, especially for anyone running stirring wild or courser. This has no relevance if you're on ZooFall, and goyf is superior there.

It's easy to netdeck and play what the next guy used to win without understanding the mechanics (not against you or anyone else), but I like to test cards when they come out. That's how the game evolves. PKN and Painful Truths are two good examples in the context of grixis. The same people who claimed the cards were trash now claim they're staples.

That card has basically no chance of making the cut - Voice of Resurgence 1-4, Qasali Pridemage 1-4 and Scavenging ooze 1-3 are all quite a bit better. Fleecemane lion is likely better as well, and that card sees no play.

I think you really need to play the deck more if you feel like it is lacking blockers or a 2/3 attacker. Of all the problems facing the deck, I disagree strongly that this card addresses a single one.

I'm not trying to tell you what to play - play whatever cards you want in your list. I appreciate brewing, but I can't even see a reason to try this card which is so obviously inferior to options we already use.

It's easy to netdeck and play what the next guy used to win without understanding the mechanics

I would suggest that when one offers a card as weak (contextually) as Sylvan Advocate as a candidate card for this deck, one has demonstrated a considerable lack of understanding of how this deck functions.

Or maybe I've taken notes as to my board state in the attrition match ups I've lost in under a particular build (because I agree the card is trash in zoo, and may be even trash next to courser and doesn't belong after testing). Game 2 and 3, the combo is mediocre against box and you're depending on acceleration, exalted triggers and beat down. Once behind, I don't care about any of those cards except scooze (which more than 2 would feel clunky) or voice (which is lame against some gy hate that gets used against goyf and knight, as well as other exile effects some opponents show). I've already tried those things except for fleece (lol).

I didn't suggest the card because I think it would push the decks tier up, I suggested it because it's mediocre on its own early, OK next to exalted and (circumstantially) good if the game goes long. And since bgx will always be a thing, and I see a lot of it at certain spots, it's a consideration. After asking around, most people's bgx plan is to hope a scooze sticks with extra mana to invest or that a Geist can get some good swings in.

It's because I understand the deck and what I want to tune for that I can suggest a card that might be shxt The pros do counter intuitive things that are sometimes obviously bad, but they made practical observations; sometimes it works, most of the time it doesn't.

Again, not knocking your opinion, and you make good points about other things we could be doing. The whole point is to discuss to better understand the whys and why nots.

Is there a general consensus on Goyf vs Goyf-less version of this deck? Which is better or more consistent? I've heard people say if you want to gun for the combo, play goyf-less but if you want a deck that can combo or go into the mid-game, play Goyf. Is this true? Or is it better to just play Abzan/Jund if you're trying to get into the midgame? This is a combo deck after all, thoughts?

Get your first fetch asap when you cast retreat. If that resolves, get a second one. If you have two fetches in play, it's time to swing (protects against cryptic tapping + removal): use one fetch as protection and the other to combo out. If they have blockers, you can combo before blocks to tap the blockers. Make sure to always leave sejiri steppe and a temple garden in the deck, and combo out after blockers but before damage if the opponent doesn't make a move.

edit: Also, if you don't have sejiri steppe in the deck, it is advisable to leave a couple lands that can get GW on the table just in case your knight is removed at a late stage of the combo (which will be a blowout if you have no lands left).

Knightfall moved to Developing Competitive

For more information on the metagame update, check out the post in the metagame thread below:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/566735-modern-metagame-breakdown-and-discussion-updated?comment=923