In a meta with lots of Liliana, Smiter wins.
In a meta with lots of Jeskai Control, Geist might be better.
It's obviously not that simple, but the deck can also choose from Finks, Clique, Rhox War Monk ... Just in the 3 drop.
After that, if Smiter is good, then so is Wilt-Leaf Liege as opposed to maybe Elspeth in the 4 drop.
Is Lightning Bolt better than CoCo? The deck changes.
This makes it very hard to determine a proper 75. The constant is the Knightfall combo.
Then think about play style .... The fact is that Knightfall as a two card combo validates a few different archetypes. Doesn't mean it's not tier 2.
Kryxo, there is no meta where Jeskai is better. Bad point you're trying to make? Geist may be better in a combo heavier meta where a turn 1 mana dork followed by Geist is nice. He sucks against a heavy creature meta though
No one is maindecking Finks in a naya zoo/knightfall deck unless they're trying to hate burn
Smiter is solid in a world of a slower meta, and he's a solid, big dumb beater
Clique used in this deck screams "I don't know what I'm doing, I want to play all the decks, ALL OF THEM!"
Wilt-Leaf being used in this deck is nonsense. Go play Little Kid Junk or some Coco deck
Elspeth is a reasonable 1 or 2 of. Voice of Resurgence is preferred by some people, and I wouldn't say they're wrong if they felt that way
Bolt is better than Coco in modern, is that even a debate? I do see some debate about the number of paths, bolts, coco, the combo piece, whether Chord or Commune is to be used.
The Knightfall section definitely needs to go back into developing, you even just proved my point. None of you guys have a general idea of the deck and the flex spots. Are you guys seriously going to tell me Knightfall deserves to share the tier 2 meta with other Zoo decks, Junk, Merfolk, Infect. They certainly have a good idea what the deck looks like, you don't see too much confusion in those topics. The deck is definitely not tier 2 proven. At least a deck like Azorious had some back to back success
So this was just spoiled, possibly giving tron access to an instant-speed Pyroclasm (that ancient stirrings can hit).
What're your thoughts regarding dealing with this should it become common, possible Dromoka's Command in the main if not already? Dispel?
Forget the examples. That post took 15 seconds to write. (If you want to argue semantics, yes it took more.)
The point was that the two card combo slots into different shells which have different options so it make sense that a final 75 hasn't been settled upon. It probably never will as it fits into multiple decks where people will continually jam it. The deck has also been posting top 8 results in its infancy without a set deck list like infect etc. Tier two is competitive, not tier 1. All things considered it doesn't seem too unreasonable.
The difference between the Knightfall decks is the same as the difference between Twin decks. All of them have differing Primary plans but are tied together by their instant-win secondary plan. (UR bolt tempo, Grixis removal tempo, Temur creature beats).
Having different primary plans (4C zoo, Bant zoo, Bant control) doesn't make them inherently bad, just meta-dependent.
Bleh, there goes Forgetenders utility in the RG match sweet card though. I can see DromokaCom being important there.
I think that there's a little too much trolling on whether or not it's tier 2. Write a letter to a mod or something lol. I don't pay attention to tier rankings anyways; it's a horrible way of rating decks that turns into a popularity contest.
So this was just spoiled, possibly giving tron access to an instant-speed Pyroclasm (that ancient stirrings can hit).
What're your thoughts regarding dealing with this should it become common, possible Dromoka's Command in the main if not already? Dispel?
I run 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender in my SB instead of the more common Kor Firewalker to protect against sweepers like clasm/anger. He works just as well vs Kozilek's Return. He's obviously not quite as big a hoser as Kor Firewalker, but the added utility against Twin/GR Tron, etc. makes him my preferred choice for those SB slots.
In a meta with lots of Liliana, Smiter wins.
In a meta with lots of Jeskai Control, Geist might be better.
It's obviously not that simple, but the deck can also choose from Finks, Clique, Rhox War Monk ... Just in the 3 drop.
After that, if Smiter is good, then so is Wilt-Leaf Liege as opposed to maybe Elspeth in the 4 drop.
Is Lightning Bolt better than CoCo? The deck changes.
This makes it very hard to determine a proper 75. The constant is the Knightfall combo.
Then think about play style .... The fact is that Knightfall as a two card combo validates a few different archetypes. Doesn't mean it's not tier 2.
Kryxo, there is no meta where Jeskai is better. Bad point you're trying to make? Geist may be better in a combo heavier meta where a turn 1 mana dork followed by Geist is nice. He sucks against a heavy creature meta though
No one is maindecking Finks in a naya zoo/knightfall deck unless they're trying to hate burn
Smiter is solid in a world of a slower meta, and he's a solid, big dumb beater
Clique used in this deck screams "I don't know what I'm doing, I want to play all the decks, ALL OF THEM!"
Wilt-Leaf being used in this deck is nonsense. Go play Little Kid Junk or some Coco deck
Elspeth is a reasonable 1 or 2 of. Voice of Resurgence is preferred by some people, and I wouldn't say they're wrong if they felt that way
Bolt is better than Coco in modern, is that even a debate? I do see some debate about the number of paths, bolts, coco, the combo piece, whether Chord or Commune is to be used.
The Knightfall section definitely needs to go back into developing, you even just proved my point. None of you guys have a general idea of the deck and the flex spots. Are you guys seriously going to tell me Knightfall deserves to share the tier 2 meta with other Zoo decks, Junk, Merfolk, Infect. They certainly have a good idea what the deck looks like, you don't see too much confusion in those topics. The deck is definitely not tier 2 proven. At least a deck like Azorious had some back to back success
Nitpick: He didn't say where Jeskai was better. He said in a meta with lots of jeskai control, Geist might be better.
With that exception, most of your points are solid. Even as a Knightfall player, I have a hard time justifying it's inclusion in T2. It did top 4 the Brazil GP though, and if you combine all the Knightfall variants, it does have enough metagame share to qualify. It's just that the deck is too new to have solidified even 2-3 variant deck lists. My guess is that it will eventually end up with a zoo and a bant version.
I run 2 Burrenton Forge Tender in my SB instead of the more common Kor Firewalker to protect against sweepers like clasm/anger. He works just as well vs Kozilek's Return.
Unfortunately, K's Return is colorless.
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I run 2 Burrenton Forge Tender in my SB instead of the more common Kor Firewalker to protect against sweepers like clasm/anger. He works just as well vs Kozilek's Return.
I run 2 Burrenton Forge Tender in my SB instead of the more common Kor Firewalker to protect against sweepers like clasm/anger. He works just as well vs Kozilek's Return.
Unfortunately, K's Return is colorless.
Yea, this card is ****ed.
Oh Jesus Christ... that should have been instantly apparent to me.
Well.. @#$& me sideways I guess? The GR Tron match-up was already real bad, this just makes it that much worse. We may need to add some Mark of Asylum to the SB. Our SB slots are at a premium as it is though. I already run Negate in the SB, and am considering a copy of Unified Will. That being said, I'd way rather be getting their Karn/Ugin/Wurmcoils than needing to blow those on sweeper protection. More than 1/2 the creatures in the 4C version of the deck will die from 2 dmg.
Way worse than the devoid part is the being able to find it with Ancient Stirrings in my opinion. Sometimes Tron just died due to not having a sweeper early enough. This massively increases the chances that they have their sweeper on time.
I run 2 Burrenton Forge Tender in my SB instead of the more common Kor Firewalker to protect against sweepers like clasm/anger. He works just as well vs Kozilek's Return.
Unfortunately, K's Return is colorless.
Yea, this card is ****ed.
Oh Jesus Christ... that should have been instantly apparent to me.
Well.. @#$& me sideways I guess? The GR Tron match-up was already real bad, this just makes it that much worse. We may need to add some Mark of Asylum to the SB. Our SB slots are at a premium as it is though. I already run Negate in the SB, and am considering a copy of Unified Will. That being said, I'd way rather be getting their Karn/Ugin/Wurmcoils than needing to blow those on sweeper protection. More than 1/2 the creatures in the 4C version of the deck will die from 2 dmg.
Way worse than the devoid part is the being able to find it with Ancient Stirrings in my opinion. Sometimes Tron just died due to not having a sweeper early enough. This massively increases the chances that they have their sweeper on time.
hmmm.. i don't know.. kozilek's return is really good.. but other than our dork and geist, the rest should be able to get big enough to survive the 1st pyroclasm when its cast.. and just ooze it away before the 2nd effect.. so isn't really that big of a problem i guess? but still.. maybe for me i might still drop those 2 aven mindcensor in my sb and go for either full set of meddling mage or 2 dromoka command. that 2 aven mindcensor havent been doing very well for me.. how about boros charm for those playing zoo?
Sorry, don't mean to come into this topic rudely, but I have no clue how in the hell Knightfall is in the tier 2 forums.
It's not that the deck is bad, but looking through this entire topic of lists, MTGGoldfish, MTGtop8, googling, articles, there's no coherent list of this deck whatsoever. It's a mishmash of ***** that no one can agree with yet.
A lot of these tier 1 and tier 2 lists have a fairly established set list with flex spots and numbers to tweak, especially the Zoo lists, but this---it's honestly all over the place, which is disappointing, because it has potential. Right now, the last few pages look like an all in version, which is just a *****tier version of UR Twin.
I hope the pro tour coming up helps establish some form of consistency in the Knightfall archetype, because as of now, I truly believe this should still be in the creative subset
If you go back a whole 1 page it tells you why this got pushed up to tier 2.
The thread IS a mess and they know it because they went and pushed 3 decks into this one thread. The reason why people don't agree is because of those 3 different decks that ended up sharing this thread with the original Knightfall deck.
I run 2 Burrenton Forge Tender in my SB instead of the more common Kor Firewalker to protect against sweepers like clasm/anger. He works just as well vs Kozilek's Return.
Unfortunately, K's Return is colorless.
Yea, this card is ****ed.
Oh Jesus Christ... that should have been instantly apparent to me.
Well.. @#$& me sideways I guess? The GR Tron match-up was already real bad, this just makes it that much worse. We may need to add some Mark of Asylum to the SB. Our SB slots are at a premium as it is though. I already run Negate in the SB, and am considering a copy of Unified Will. That being said, I'd way rather be getting their Karn/Ugin/Wurmcoils than needing to blow those on sweeper protection. More than 1/2 the creatures in the 4C version of the deck will die from 2 dmg.
Way worse than the devoid part is the being able to find it with Ancient Stirrings in my opinion. Sometimes Tron just died due to not having a sweeper early enough. This massively increases the chances that they have their sweeper on time.
hmmm.. i don't know.. kozilek's return is really good.. but other than our dork and geist, the rest should be able to get big enough to survive the 1st pyroclasm when its cast.. and just ooze it away before the 2nd effect.. so isn't really that big of a problem i guess? but still.. maybe for me i might still drop those 2 aven mindcensor in my sb and go for either full set of meddling mage or 2 dromoka command. that 2 aven mindcensor havent been doing very well for me.. how about boros charm for those playing zoo?
Here's a list of stuff in my deck that dies to Kozilek's Return:
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise
Qasali Pridemage
Voice of Resurgence
Scavenging Ooze
Geist of Saint Traft
And Knight of the Reliquary/Wild Nacatl/Tarmogoyf all still could die if I'm a little unlucky.
Disagree. At the risk of derailing the topic: A) Tron plays O-Stone, which is a 3 drop. B) One of Trons greatest weaknesses is the lack of ability to interact on the opponents turn. This allows them to kill manlands (HUGE against infect/affinity), blow up creatures in response to a Cranial Plating equip, and a hundred other things that I'm not mentioning. I probably wouldn't replace all of the Pyroclasms, but I'd definitely have some number of Kozilek's Return in my 75.
Tron is going to snap play return. They can find it with stirrings and it's an instant, which allows them to hit manlands like inkmoth nexus or kill merfolk in response to vial activation. One turn later means less, they'll just drop another egg turn two.
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Also, each variation of twin has its own thread, but we discuss and compare all variations within the main UR twin because it helps players understand how to play the meta and why the subtleties of each play style pilots a little different.
Maybe cleaning up the primer a bit can help with confusion, but I don't see how trolling helps lol.
Hey all, I don't play the deck but I have been helping someone play test it over the last few weeks and I had a question regarding stopping the combo. I am relatively new to Magic, so forgive me if this is a bit of a noob question.
So here is the board state: His Knight, two lands, mana dork, and Coralhelm (Knight played on T2). My board state doesn't matter much for this question but let's say I have a Nature's Claim in hand with 2 green sources in play. When do you hit the Knight and when do you hit Coralhelm? It should be once Knight is tapped as a response trigger similar to Twin Combo correct? I ask because he seems to think that once Coralhelm resolves he can hold priority and combo out... I'm pretty sure that is wrong.
Hey all, I don't play the deck but I have been helping someone play test it over the last few weeks and I had a question regarding stopping the combo. I am relatively new to Magic, so forgive me if this is a bit of a noob question.
So here is the board state: His Knight, two lands, mana dork, and Coralhelm (Knight played on T2). My board state doesn't matter much for this question but let's say I have a Nature's Claim in hand with 2 green sources in play. When do you hit the Knight and when do you hit Coralhelm? It should be once Knight is tapped as a response trigger similar to Twin Combo correct? I ask because he seems to think that once Coralhelm resolves he can hold priority and combo out... I'm pretty sure that is wrong.
Again, sorry for the noob question.
You respond to the Knight activation to hit Coralhelm. He can hold priority but it's not doing much because he'll never fetch up the land until you've received priority. If he has an available fetch in play.. then you have a whole different issue.
Hey all, I don't play the deck but I have been helping someone play test it over the last few weeks and I had a question regarding stopping the combo. I am relatively new to Magic, so forgive me if this is a bit of a noob question.
So here is the board state: His Knight, two lands, mana dork, and Coralhelm (Knight played on T2). My board state doesn't matter much for this question but let's say I have a Nature's Claim in hand with 2 green sources in play. When do you hit the Knight and when do you hit Coralhelm? It should be once Knight is tapped as a response trigger similar to Twin Combo correct? I ask because he seems to think that once Coralhelm resolves he can hold priority and combo out... I'm pretty sure that is wrong.
Again, sorry for the noob question.
You respond to the Knight activation to hit Coralhelm. He can hold priority but it's not doing much because he'll never fetch up the land until you've received priority. If he has an available fetch in play.. then you have a whole different issue.
That is what I thought. If he has a fetch in play he can crack in response to Claim then proceed with combo, yes? What are the options in that circumstance?
You need a second removal to get around it. An alternative with the same result is the knightfall player pathing their own bird to get the knight untapped. Both scenarios require 2 removal spells to stop the combo.
edit: This is all just to say that a single removal spell (creature or enchantment) can't stop the combo (sudden death/Krosan grip exception anyone?) if the knight is active with a retreat in play. You have to remove the knight before the knightfall player untaps, or else they can blank 1 removal spell.
edit 2: Some knightfall players don't play sejiri steppe, which negates these lines of play. You can take advantage of these players (or if sejiri steppe is already in play) by letting them build up the combo with all the lands in their yard before removing the knight or coralhelm (leaving the knight tapped)
Kryxo, there is no meta where Jeskai is better. Bad point you're trying to make? Geist may be better in a combo heavier meta where a turn 1 mana dork followed by Geist is nice. He sucks against a heavy creature meta though
No one is maindecking Finks in a naya zoo/knightfall deck unless they're trying to hate burn
Smiter is solid in a world of a slower meta, and he's a solid, big dumb beater
Clique used in this deck screams "I don't know what I'm doing, I want to play all the decks, ALL OF THEM!"
Wilt-Leaf being used in this deck is nonsense. Go play Little Kid Junk or some Coco deck
Elspeth is a reasonable 1 or 2 of. Voice of Resurgence is preferred by some people, and I wouldn't say they're wrong if they felt that way
Bolt is better than Coco in modern, is that even a debate? I do see some debate about the number of paths, bolts, coco, the combo piece, whether Chord or Commune is to be used.
The Knightfall section definitely needs to go back into developing, you even just proved my point. None of you guys have a general idea of the deck and the flex spots. Are you guys seriously going to tell me Knightfall deserves to share the tier 2 meta with other Zoo decks, Junk, Merfolk, Infect. They certainly have a good idea what the deck looks like, you don't see too much confusion in those topics. The deck is definitely not tier 2 proven. At least a deck like Azorious had some back to back success
So this was just spoiled, possibly giving tron access to an instant-speed Pyroclasm (that ancient stirrings can hit).
What're your thoughts regarding dealing with this should it become common, possible Dromoka's Command in the main if not already? Dispel?
The point was that the two card combo slots into different shells which have different options so it make sense that a final 75 hasn't been settled upon. It probably never will as it fits into multiple decks where people will continually jam it. The deck has also been posting top 8 results in its infancy without a set deck list like infect etc. Tier two is competitive, not tier 1. All things considered it doesn't seem too unreasonable.
Having different primary plans (4C zoo, Bant zoo, Bant control) doesn't make them inherently bad, just meta-dependent.
I think that there's a little too much trolling on whether or not it's tier 2. Write a letter to a mod or something lol. I don't pay attention to tier rankings anyways; it's a horrible way of rating decks that turns into a popularity contest.
I run 2 Burrenton Forge-Tender in my SB instead of the more common Kor Firewalker to protect against sweepers like clasm/anger. He works just as well vs Kozilek's Return. He's obviously not quite as big a hoser as Kor Firewalker, but the added utility against Twin/GR Tron, etc. makes him my preferred choice for those SB slots.
Nitpick: He didn't say where Jeskai was better. He said in a meta with lots of jeskai control, Geist might be better.
With that exception, most of your points are solid. Even as a Knightfall player, I have a hard time justifying it's inclusion in T2. It did top 4 the Brazil GP though, and if you combine all the Knightfall variants, it does have enough metagame share to qualify. It's just that the deck is too new to have solidified even 2-3 variant deck lists. My guess is that it will eventually end up with a zoo and a bant version.
Modern -
Unfortunately, K's Return is colorless.
Yea, this card is ****ed.
Oh Jesus Christ... that should have been instantly apparent to me.
Well.. @#$& me sideways I guess? The GR Tron match-up was already real bad, this just makes it that much worse. We may need to add some Mark of Asylum to the SB. Our SB slots are at a premium as it is though. I already run Negate in the SB, and am considering a copy of Unified Will. That being said, I'd way rather be getting their Karn/Ugin/Wurmcoils than needing to blow those on sweeper protection. More than 1/2 the creatures in the 4C version of the deck will die from 2 dmg.
Way worse than the devoid part is the being able to find it with Ancient Stirrings in my opinion. Sometimes Tron just died due to not having a sweeper early enough. This massively increases the chances that they have their sweeper on time.
Modern -
hmmm.. i don't know.. kozilek's return is really good.. but other than our dork and geist, the rest should be able to get big enough to survive the 1st pyroclasm when its cast.. and just ooze it away before the 2nd effect.. so isn't really that big of a problem i guess? but still.. maybe for me i might still drop those 2 aven mindcensor in my sb and go for either full set of meddling mage or 2 dromoka command. that 2 aven mindcensor havent been doing very well for me.. how about boros charm for those playing zoo?
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If you go back a whole 1 page it tells you why this got pushed up to tier 2.
The thread IS a mess and they know it because they went and pushed 3 decks into this one thread. The reason why people don't agree is because of those 3 different decks that ended up sharing this thread with the original Knightfall deck.
Here's a list of stuff in my deck that dies to Kozilek's Return:
Noble Hierarch
Birds of Paradise
Qasali Pridemage
Voice of Resurgence
Scavenging Ooze
Geist of Saint Traft
And Knight of the Reliquary/Wild Nacatl/Tarmogoyf all still could die if I'm a little unlucky.
Disagree. At the risk of derailing the topic: A) Tron plays O-Stone, which is a 3 drop. B) One of Trons greatest weaknesses is the lack of ability to interact on the opponents turn. This allows them to kill manlands (HUGE against infect/affinity), blow up creatures in response to a Cranial Plating equip, and a hundred other things that I'm not mentioning. I probably wouldn't replace all of the Pyroclasms, but I'd definitely have some number of Kozilek's Return in my 75.
Modern -
Tron is going to snap play return. They can find it with stirrings and it's an instant, which allows them to hit manlands like inkmoth nexus or kill merfolk in response to vial activation. One turn later means less, they'll just drop another egg turn two.
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Maybe cleaning up the primer a bit can help with confusion, but I don't see how trolling helps lol.
So here is the board state: His Knight, two lands, mana dork, and Coralhelm (Knight played on T2). My board state doesn't matter much for this question but let's say I have a Nature's Claim in hand with 2 green sources in play. When do you hit the Knight and when do you hit Coralhelm? It should be once Knight is tapped as a response trigger similar to Twin Combo correct? I ask because he seems to think that once Coralhelm resolves he can hold priority and combo out... I'm pretty sure that is wrong.
Again, sorry for the noob question.
You respond to the Knight activation to hit Coralhelm. He can hold priority but it's not doing much because he'll never fetch up the land until you've received priority. If he has an available fetch in play.. then you have a whole different issue.
edit: This is all just to say that a single removal spell (creature or enchantment) can't stop the combo (sudden death/Krosan grip exception anyone?) if the knight is active with a retreat in play. You have to remove the knight before the knightfall player untaps, or else they can blank 1 removal spell.
edit 2: Some knightfall players don't play sejiri steppe, which negates these lines of play. You can take advantage of these players (or if sejiri steppe is already in play) by letting them build up the combo with all the lands in their yard before removing the knight or coralhelm (leaving the knight tapped)
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