I agree with the last guy when he says that the combo just, pretty much, weakens the beatdown plan of the zoo-esque lists that everyone has been discussing in the more recent pages.
Given that, why aren't people discussing a more midrange/control-ish build with the knightfall combo?
I think Retreat to Coralhelm itself will do more for a deck like that than it does for a beatdown plan.
**I'm new to this discussion so I apologize if this has been discussed before.
This is my current main and side after more testing, what do you guys think?
Very similar to my list, although I opted for Loxodon Smiter in place of the Courser of Kruphix. This is mostly because of all the nasty Kolaghan's Command (and occasional Liliana) I face. I like being a little more pro-active in face beating. That said, the value from Courser adds up, and it is great against opposing aggro decks.
I'd actually recommend you take out the Sejiri Steppe. Theoretically it will protect the combo. But in my 4 weeks of actual play, the knight always dies before you can untap, or they have no removal and you just use extra taps from fetches to turn off blockers. I've never used it, needed it, or had it do anything but screw up my curve by coming into play tapped.
Taking out Sejiri steppe is an interesting game. On the one hand, if your opponent expects that you don't have it in your deck, they are able to allow you to go all-in on the combo and blow you out with removal. On the other hand, if you drop it but opponents are still playing around it, then you gain the advantages with no drawback.
So basically, if you take out sejiri steppe, I'd recommend only doing it when opponents expect you to have it.
edit: Strategically, it is very important that our opponents not have the option to let us put all the lands in the yard (at times leaving us with little or no coloured in play) and then remove the knight or kessig target with removal. This type of play will be a big strategic problem for the deck without sejiri steppe. The card is less about actually having to use it, and more about the lines of play it cuts off.
I could see siding it out for something but I don't think not having sejiri is a good idea. once people know you don't run it, they let you sac your lands then kill it
Exactly. Sejiri Steppe is more about it's strategic value than tactical value imo.
That said, I am always frustrated when I draw it so I understand the reason for wanting to not have it in your deck. I just don't think we can, strategically, afford to cut it.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Generally I agree with everything Wpgstevo says, and we run nearly identical Bant Knightfall lists (although I just switched to the 4C Zoo variant to test it out) but I've played a total of 4 4-round tourneys without Sejiri Steppe, and never once had a Knight removed after i'd started comboing off.
Now that's not the largest sample size in the world, but I find that opponents don't wait around to use their removal until after you can combo. I've also jammed 25+ matches against my friends and never had it come up either, and they obviously know my deck pretty well.
I'm personally not willing to risk a CIPT land for a shot at protecting the combo.
I've been playing the deck for a while and i'd like to try something a little bit different. I want to try 2x brimaz, king of oreskos in my wilt-leaf liege version. Craig Wescoe was running one in his wilted hatebears list that got him a top4 at GP Pittsburg. I figured it is a great offensive/defensive creature that has the second fastest clock (after geist).
I'd also like to try 2x chord of calling. In addition to it being a great card it fits really well with brimaz, because you can attack and make a token and chord with all the vigilant creatures before blockers.
Rounds went Amulet bloom (2-1), BW tokens (2-0), Amulet bloom (2-0), Dredgevine (2-1), Jund (2-1). 5-0 to get my packs, not playing in the next GP so dropped before top 8.
The amulet matchup feels really good bringing in the meddling mages (scooze out), burrenton (2x birds out), vendilion (witness out) and aven mindcensor (smiter out). Medddling mage on primeval titan continues to win games.
I've been doing a bit of playtesting with honored hierarch in place of birds of paradise. My list runs four noble hierarch already, taking out the two BOP for a couple honored was easy. Results have been interesting. Honored is best as the first drop so you can get the reknown activated. It's a better beater than birds, not as consistent a mana source.
Has anyone else tinkered with the new dude?
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Legacy RB Goblins
So here's the brew I've been working on.The concept came from someone who compared birds/hierarch + retreat to coralhelm = Pseudo Lotus Cobras.
The deck on turn 3 consistently generates 5-7.
Scenarios such as casting only a Lotus Cobra on turn two, can lead to a turn three 5 mana turn as well as having a chord of calling in hand, you can also tap the lotus cobra for the convoke to have x=3 to search for Knight(ect.).
The deck will also have a good matchup against Tron keeping in the red for Crumble to Dust.
Having Chord of Calling for silver bullets such as Aven mindcensor(scapeshift, tron, bloom), spellskite(Boggles, Splinter twin) or Meddling Mage(insert Combo deck in here)
or Kataki, War's Wage at instant speed feels amazing.
*The mana base feels really gentle after adding the Cobras, so i usually search for basics.
* also woodland bellower is in for the 6 mana turns, so obviously i search for Knights with it, (which in reality paying 6 for 9 manas worth seems alright in my books)
I've been doing a bit of playtesting with honored hierarch in place of birds of paradise. My list runs four noble hierarch already, taking out the two BOP for a couple honored was easy. Results have been interesting. Honored is best as the first drop so you can get the reknown activated. It's a better beater than birds, not as consistent a mana source.
Has anyone else tinkered with the new dude?
I think you need to ask yourself why you're playing him. It seems to me that by the time you turn on his ramp, you probably already have it (or the mana you need). If you're playing him to have a cheap aggressive creature, there's better creatures that are either stronger or have more relevant abilities that don't require turning them on.
I've been running 2x Steppe Lynx. Works well if you combo off, gives you some explosive plays for 4+ damage, goes under bridge... I'm not saying he's the best card to slot up, but he's suited the role I want for him as my 2x pseudo-goyfs.
I think honored is slightly better than birds, but Dryad Military is also an option (shuts down the most played blue card Snap, his cousin Jace, and graveyard strategies), and some two-drops are good choices.. (maindeck some skites and open up 2 more sideboard slots).
What you guys think about the new card for this deck.
Mina and Denn, Wildborn
2RG
Legendary Creature - Elf Ally
- You may play an additional land on each of your turns.
- RG, Return a land you control to its owner's hand: Target creature gains trample until end of turn.
I think it's an awesome card and was trying to figure out how to break it, but idk.. it could be useful for bouncing Sejiri along with the trample. I think it competes with elspeth, who I prefer anyway since it makes the dorks better and protects itself.
But, I think it'd be sexy next to Azusa in a BloomTitan build with a red splash. It's super aggro even if you don't hit Titan and you can protect your lands in response to destro effects. It also gives a threat resilient to bloodmoon for when you're waiting on your second forest (assuming you play a second in the side).
I'm hoping the new set gives us a super aggro one drop with some sort of useful trigger or static ability.
I've been doing a bit of playtesting with honored hierarch in place of birds of paradise. My list runs four noble hierarch already, taking out the two BOP for a couple honored was easy. Results have been interesting. Honored is best as the first drop so you can get the reknown activated. It's a better beater than birds, not as consistent a mana source.
Has anyone else tinkered with the new dude?
I think you need to ask yourself why you're playing him. It seems to me that by the time you turn on his ramp, you probably already have it (or the mana you need). If you're playing him to have a cheap aggressive creature, there's better creatures that are either stronger or have more relevant abilities that don't require turning them on.
I've been running 2x Steppe Lynx. Works well if you combo off, gives you some explosive plays for 4+ damage, goes under bridge... I'm not saying he's the best card to slot up, but he's suited the role I want for him as my 2x pseudo-goyfs.
I think honored is slightly better than birds, but Dryad Military is also an option (shuts down the most played blue card Snap, his cousin Jace, and graveyard strategies), and some two-drops are good choices.. (maindeck some skites and open up 2 more sideboard slots).
I think all of what you said is fair. I think part of why run honored hierarch is just to say I did something other than birds, because BOP is so vanilla. I do notice that HH's ramp doesn't really start until turn three, which is when we'd go off with birds in play instead. So HH doesn't make the deck quicker, still dies to bolts, and isn't a guarantee to "flip".
On another note, there is a pretty interesting new creature, a total beater, but one that could be a nice sideboard option if you wanted to swap out of the combo to just smash, woodland wanderer. With the manabase I run, bant splashing red, it would be easy to drop a wanderer turn three as a 6/6. That stuffs gurmags all day long, and could even square up a wurmcoil.
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I've been doing a bit of playtesting with honored hierarch in place of birds of paradise. My list runs four noble hierarch already, taking out the two BOP for a couple honored was easy. Results have been interesting. Honored is best as the first drop so you can get the reknown activated. It's a better beater than birds, not as consistent a mana source.
Has anyone else tinkered with the new dude?
I think you need to ask yourself why you're playing him. It seems to me that by the time you turn on his ramp, you probably already have it (or the mana you need). If you're playing him to have a cheap aggressive creature, there's better creatures that are either stronger or have more relevant abilities that don't require turning them on.
I've been running 2x Steppe Lynx. Works well if you combo off, gives you some explosive plays for 4+ damage, goes under bridge... I'm not saying he's the best card to slot up, but he's suited the role I want for him as my 2x pseudo-goyfs.
I think honored is slightly better than birds, but Dryad Military is also an option (shuts down the most played blue card Snap, his cousin Jace, and graveyard strategies), and some two-drops are good choices.. (maindeck some skites and open up 2 more sideboard slots).
I think all of what you said is fair. I think part of why run honored hierarch is just to say I did something other than birds, because BOP is so vanilla. I do notice that HH's ramp doesn't really start until turn three, which is when we'd go off with birds in play instead. So HH doesn't make the deck quicker, still dies to bolts, and isn't a guarantee to "flip".
On another note, there is a pretty interesting new creature, a total beater, but one that could be a nice sideboard option if you wanted to swap out of the combo to just smash, woodland wanderer. With the manabase I run, bant splashing red, it would be easy to drop a wanderer turn three as a 6/6. That stuffs gurmags all day long, and could even square up a wurmcoil.
I think Woodland Wanderer is ok as a budget option, but something that big should be able to protect itself or leave behind value in this kind of deck where we are already a little weak to 2-for-1s with the exception of coco and eternal witness, and maybe voice.
Huntsman is kind of meh since we rather race than be put into a grindy situation, and the lifegain and card advantage will probably be weak against the decks I'd want him against anyway.
My 4-drop beater choices for this deck are:
Wiltleaf liege: he can sneak onto the field free and is a deck anthem, especially for your dual colored creatures.
Resto angel: flash, can protect the combo or another creature, and is a resilient clock in the air. I like this card since our interactions can be weak.
Sigarda, host of herons: gives your opponent little room for interaction, shuts down Lilly, and can hit the field turn 3 against Path.
Thrun: Resilient, but you have to keep mana up, and he doesn't go over a lot of stuff anymore.
Chameleon Collosus: protection from black, so he handles Tas and Angler and most of the formats removal, and he can go over goyf with his ability. Gives you something to do with mana too I guess to close put the game.
I'm running Sigarda, but I'm still trying to figure out the bad match ups and how I want to handle them.
Edit:
(And I'd probably 3/2 coco/chord if I were on chord, though I don't think it's necessary)
Well, it's pretty sweet to drop wanderer turn three with noble hierarch as a 6/6. Then turn four cast elspeth to swing with a flying 10/10 vigilance. Pretty good value there regardless card cost. And if it eats removal that's one less for knight to have to address.
Would Fiendslayer Paladin be better than rhox war monk? Protection from black and red and it have 1st strike. Would needing double white be easier to cast than needing 3 different color?
Thinking of replacing courser with Fiendslayer and freeing up 2 sideboard space of rhox war monk. Would remove a forest for another temple garden for more white if I do replace courser with Fiendslayer.
Given that, why aren't people discussing a more midrange/control-ish build with the knightfall combo?
I think Retreat to Coralhelm itself will do more for a deck like that than it does for a beatdown plan.
**I'm new to this discussion so I apologize if this has been discussed before.
Very similar to my list, although I opted for Loxodon Smiter in place of the Courser of Kruphix. This is mostly because of all the nasty Kolaghan's Command (and occasional Liliana) I face. I like being a little more pro-active in face beating. That said, the value from Courser adds up, and it is great against opposing aggro decks.
I'd actually recommend you take out the Sejiri Steppe. Theoretically it will protect the combo. But in my 4 weeks of actual play, the knight always dies before you can untap, or they have no removal and you just use extra taps from fetches to turn off blockers. I've never used it, needed it, or had it do anything but screw up my curve by coming into play tapped.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
So basically, if you take out sejiri steppe, I'd recommend only doing it when opponents expect you to have it.
edit: Strategically, it is very important that our opponents not have the option to let us put all the lands in the yard (at times leaving us with little or no coloured in play) and then remove the knight or kessig target with removal. This type of play will be a big strategic problem for the deck without sejiri steppe. The card is less about actually having to use it, and more about the lines of play it cuts off.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
That said, I am always frustrated when I draw it so I understand the reason for wanting to not have it in your deck. I just don't think we can, strategically, afford to cut it.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Now that's not the largest sample size in the world, but I find that opponents don't wait around to use their removal until after you can combo. I've also jammed 25+ matches against my friends and never had it come up either, and they obviously know my deck pretty well.
I'm personally not willing to risk a CIPT land for a shot at protecting the combo.
Modern -
I'd also like to try 2x chord of calling. In addition to it being a great card it fits really well with brimaz, because you can attack and make a token and chord with all the vigilant creatures before blockers.
My new list:
4 noble hierarch
2 birds of paradise
4 qasali pridemage
2 voice of resurgence
2 scavenging ooze
4 knight of the reliquary
2 geist of saint traft
2 brimaz, king of oreskos
4 wilt-leaf liege
instants : 8
4 path to exile
2 dromoka's command
2 chord of calling
4 retreat to coralhelm
lands : 22
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
2 breeding pool
2 hallowed fountain
2 temple garden
3 forest
3 plains
1 ghost quarter
1 gavony township
2 detention sphere
2 stony silence
2 aven mindcensor
2 dryad militant
1 gaddock teeg
2 dispel
4 rhox war monk
I'd like to hears thoughts before i get the 2x missing brimaz and chord.
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging ooze
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Loxodon Smiter
1x Eternal Witness
Noncreature (12)
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
4x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Breeding Pool
2x Temple Garden
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
3x Aven Mindcensor
2x Burrenton Forge-tender
2x Spellskite
2x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Meddling Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
The amulet matchup feels really good bringing in the meddling mages (scooze out), burrenton (2x birds out), vendilion (witness out) and aven mindcensor (smiter out). Medddling mage on primeval titan continues to win games.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Has anyone else tinkered with the new dude?
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
For Pyroclasm/Firespout after side I guess?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
So here's the brew I've been working on.The concept came from someone who compared birds/hierarch + retreat to coralhelm = Pseudo Lotus Cobras.
The deck on turn 3 consistently generates 5-7.
Scenarios such as casting only a Lotus Cobra on turn two, can lead to a turn three 5 mana turn as well as having a chord of calling in hand, you can also tap the lotus cobra for the convoke to have x=3 to search for Knight(ect.).
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Lotus Cobra
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
2 Courser of Kruphix
2 Woodland Bellower
3 Voice of Resurgence
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Spellskite
Instant/Sorcery: 9
4 Path to Exile
3 Chord of Calling
2 Negate
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
Land: 23
4 Windswept Heath
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Prairie Stream
1 Canopy Vista
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Cruble to Dust
1 Keranos, God of Storms
2 Celestial Purge
2 Obstinate Baloth
2 Meddling Mage
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Kataki, War's Wage
The deck will also have a good matchup against Tron keeping in the red for Crumble to Dust.
Having Chord of Calling for silver bullets such as Aven mindcensor(scapeshift, tron, bloom), spellskite(Boggles, Splinter twin) or Meddling Mage(insert Combo deck in here)
or Kataki, War's Wage at instant speed feels amazing.
*The mana base feels really gentle after adding the Cobras, so i usually search for basics.
* also woodland bellower is in for the 6 mana turns, so obviously i search for Knights with it, (which in reality paying 6 for 9 manas worth seems alright in my books)
* Sideboard could use a little more touch ups
I think you need to ask yourself why you're playing him. It seems to me that by the time you turn on his ramp, you probably already have it (or the mana you need). If you're playing him to have a cheap aggressive creature, there's better creatures that are either stronger or have more relevant abilities that don't require turning them on.
I've been running 2x Steppe Lynx. Works well if you combo off, gives you some explosive plays for 4+ damage, goes under bridge... I'm not saying he's the best card to slot up, but he's suited the role I want for him as my 2x pseudo-goyfs.
I think honored is slightly better than birds, but Dryad Military is also an option (shuts down the most played blue card Snap, his cousin Jace, and graveyard strategies), and some two-drops are good choices.. (maindeck some skites and open up 2 more sideboard slots).
Mina and Denn, Wildborn
2RG
Legendary Creature - Elf Ally
- You may play an additional land on each of your turns.
- RG, Return a land you control to its owner's hand: Target creature gains trample until end of turn.
But, I think it'd be sexy next to Azusa in a BloomTitan build with a red splash. It's super aggro even if you don't hit Titan and you can protect your lands in response to destro effects. It also gives a threat resilient to bloodmoon for when you're waiting on your second forest (assuming you play a second in the side).
I'm hoping the new set gives us a super aggro one drop with some sort of useful trigger or static ability.
I think all of what you said is fair. I think part of why run honored hierarch is just to say I did something other than birds, because BOP is so vanilla. I do notice that HH's ramp doesn't really start until turn three, which is when we'd go off with birds in play instead. So HH doesn't make the deck quicker, still dies to bolts, and isn't a guarantee to "flip".
On another note, there is a pretty interesting new creature, a total beater, but one that could be a nice sideboard option if you wanted to swap out of the combo to just smash, woodland wanderer. With the manabase I run, bant splashing red, it would be easy to drop a wanderer turn three as a 6/6. That stuffs gurmags all day long, and could even square up a wurmcoil.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
How many cord of calling and collected company should I play if I have only 5 slots for them?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
I think Woodland Wanderer is ok as a budget option, but something that big should be able to protect itself or leave behind value in this kind of deck where we are already a little weak to 2-for-1s with the exception of coco and eternal witness, and maybe voice.
Huntsman is kind of meh since we rather race than be put into a grindy situation, and the lifegain and card advantage will probably be weak against the decks I'd want him against anyway.
My 4-drop beater choices for this deck are:
Wiltleaf liege: he can sneak onto the field free and is a deck anthem, especially for your dual colored creatures.
Resto angel: flash, can protect the combo or another creature, and is a resilient clock in the air. I like this card since our interactions can be weak.
Sigarda, host of herons: gives your opponent little room for interaction, shuts down Lilly, and can hit the field turn 3 against Path.
Thrun: Resilient, but you have to keep mana up, and he doesn't go over a lot of stuff anymore.
Chameleon Collosus: protection from black, so he handles Tas and Angler and most of the formats removal, and he can go over goyf with his ability. Gives you something to do with mana too I guess to close put the game.
I'm running Sigarda, but I'm still trying to figure out the bad match ups and how I want to handle them.
Edit:
(And I'd probably 3/2 coco/chord if I were on chord, though I don't think it's necessary)
My current build.
2 Arid Mesa
1 Breeding Pool
2 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 sacred foundry
1 plains
2 stomping ground
2 temple garden
4 windswept heath
4 wooded foothills
4 Path to exile
4 lightning bolt
Enchantments and Planeswalkers
2 retreat to coralhelm
2 elspeth, knight errant
Creatures
2 Birds of Paradise
4 noble hierarch
4 tarmogoyf
4 wild nacatl
3 qasali pridemage
3 geist of saint traft
4 knight of the reliquary
2 woodland wanderer
2 stony silence
2 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 kor firewalker
1 scavenging ooze
2 negate
2 unified will
1 grim lavamancer
1 ancient grudge
2 fracturing gust
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
Currently this is what I'm running:
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Meddling Mage
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Chord of Calling
3 Collected Company
3 Path to Exile
4 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Rhox War Monk
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
2 Stony Silence
Thinking of replacing courser with Fiendslayer and freeing up 2 sideboard space of rhox war monk. Would remove a forest for another temple garden for more white if I do replace courser with Fiendslayer.
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!