I think we're pretty much on the same page with this deck. Rhox war monk can be a pretty huge hit from collected company in the opponent's combat step to kill a creature and gain some life. Otherwise it just brick walls small aggro decks since they have a hard time swinging past him for more than lifelink will soak up. Most times Rhox war monk comes in, it is replacing geist of saint traft since they shine in opposite matchups.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I have been a long time Bant Company player (well as long as Collected Company has been a card at least), and I am planning to give this combo thing another shot. I tried it when it was first revealed, but found that in my Jund heavy meta, it ended up just being a worse version of my standard Bant Company deck because I was never really able to combo without putting more effort into it than I would have needed to win with my standard beatdown plan anyways.
Now that the meta in my area has started shifting, I think that this combo is positioned to perform well for me.
Is there a consensus on what version of the deck is best? Or are people still playing various versions?
This is the list I plan to start with and slowly tune until I find it acceptable. Let me know what you guys think. Not sure if CoCo is correct with the number of creatures I run, but I mainly want it for a way to dig for Knight, even if I don't hit a second creature, the selection still feels worth it to me for now. I might move to a midrange version with a couple chords and no CoCo though. Was unsure of goyf here as well, I found that Voice of Resurgence was often a better defualt 2-drop in my Company deck due to the limited card types I played, but it might be more relevant here, so I might try to fit them in as well.
25 creatures is pretty much the minimum amount needed for coco to be great, and even then in my list I'm only running 3 cocos, though it's mostly because I need to cram a lot of other cards in the deck while still maintaining my creature count.
I've taken a break from grixtwin to try this deck out. I wanted to report some observations from the few local events and some non-competitive play, and maybe get some suggestions. I went 3-1, 4-0 and 3-1 with the above list. Some comments on certain cards:
Sejiri Steppe - It's pretty useless for protecting the combo versus an experienced player, but I also don't mind the utility of having it. It usually nets a free attack, and if backed by a Simic Charm, I fizzle out the removal played in response to the land drop.
Gavony Township - I like this land better than getting unblockable for 5 with passage or having to go a 4th color for trample. Coralhelm clears the ground, and those things don't matter versus control decks. Gavony improves the grindy match ups in my opinion by pumping your line.
Ghost Quarter - I see a lot of Tron, but it can also get you an extra landfall trigger, or it can take out a manland.
Steppe Lynx: this card is underrated, but that's probably because the 3rd and 4th copy are significantly worse than the 1st and 2nd. He takes the spot of what would otherwise probably be a 2nd Sc'ooze and a single 'Goyf (and/or 2 more Birds). I don't see many graveyard shenanigans, so 1 Sc'ooze is enough; and I think 'Goyf is underwhelming in this shell, but the singleton performs well. My reason For 2 Steppe Lynx is that the card is explosive, which pays in modern. He has synergy with the theme and combo, and I'm usually swinging for 4 with him, but sometimes sneak in attacks for 5-7 on turn 2 with a simic charm or exalted triggers. If he gets chump blocked then you only traded out 1 mana, and if he chump blocks after a swing or 2, you've gotten your value. He usually draws removal after 2 early 4 dmg swings, which is what we want. It's a great card for early pressure, and good later in the game if you hold your lands like i do, but bad in multiples; 1-2 is optimal.
Eternal Witness - this card gives huge value off Coco and in general. I think people underappreciate it
Loxodon Smiter - awesome versus discard and a good beater with exalted trigs. I've played Rhox War Monk in this spot against decks like zoo, burn, affinity, and it performed to my satisfaction. I think Finks might still be better here, but Rhox probably nets you more life-gain if he sticks. Simic charm has been useful for fizzling removal, bouncing wormcoil engines and other annoying stuff when they hit, or for sneaking in extra damage. A part of me feels this should be two counterspells. Most likely Spell Pierce; It's a strong early play, protects the combo, and forces your opponent to play around it. If I add two pierces then I'd maybe add 2 counters to the board. Then again, Simic hasnt been bad. Any opinions?
Kiora, Master of the Depths - I've been siding her into the grindy matchups, but she's only stuck to the board twice. I really liked her in those two matches though. She gave me virtual card advantage with her +1 (untap a land and a dork) and actual card advantage with her -2. Something else might be better but I'll keep testing her for now.
What are people's Tron plans? I've generally been siding in 2 Aven and a Clique and running those next to Pridemages and the Ghost Quarter. I see a lot of Tron and feel we are like 45:55 in their favor.
Some questions:
Should the two Simic Charms be counters or something else?
I use Forgetenders for Pyroclasms, Angers, and vs burn. Would 2 counters be better?
Is Kiora legit to consider in this shell as a replacement for Elspeth to improve grindy matches (where Elspeth is usually good when we are already winning), or is Elspeth still preferred for the extra slot and her ability to pump and close?
I've taken a break from grixtwin to try this deck out. I wanted to report some observations from the few local events and some non-competitive play, and maybe get some suggestions. I went 3-1, 4-0 and 3-1 with the above list. Some comments on certain cards:
Sejiri Steppe - It's pretty useless for protecting the combo versus an experienced player, but I also don't mind the utility of having it. It usually nets a free attack, and if backed by a Simic Charm, I fizzle out the removal played in response to the land drop.
Gavony Township - I like this land better than getting unblockable for 5 with passage or having to go a 4th color for trample. Coralhelm clears the ground, and those things don't matter versus control decks. Gavony improves the grindy match ups in my opinion by pumping your line.
Ghost Quarter - I see a lot of Tron, but it can also get you an extra landfall trigger, or it can take out a manland.
Steppe Lynx: this card is underrated, but that's probably because the 3rd and 4th copy are significantly worse than the 1st and 2nd. He takes the spot of what would otherwise probably be a 2nd Sc'ooze and a single 'Goyf (and/or 2 more Birds). I don't see many graveyard shenanigans, so 1 Sc'ooze is enough; and I think 'Goyf is underwhelming in this shell, but the singleton performs well. My reason For 2 Steppe Lynx is that the card is explosive, which pays in modern. He has synergy with the theme and combo, and I'm usually swinging for 4 with him, but sometimes sneak in attacks for 5-7 on turn 2 with a simic charm or exalted triggers. If he gets chump blocked then you only traded out 1 mana, and if he chump blocks after a swing or 2, you've gotten your value. He usually draws removal after 2 early 4 dmg swings, which is what we want. It's a great card for early pressure, and good later in the game if you hold your lands like i do, but bad in multiples; 1-2 is optimal.
Eternal Witness - this card gives huge value off Coco and in general. I think people underappreciate it
Loxodon Smiter - awesome versus discard and a good beater with exalted trigs. I've played Rhox War Monk in this spot against decks like zoo, burn, affinity, and it performed to my satisfaction. I think Finks might still be better here, but Rhox probably nets you more life-gain if he sticks. Simic charm has been useful for fizzling removal, bouncing wormcoil engines and other annoying stuff when they hit, or for sneaking in extra damage. A part of me feels this should be two counterspells. Most likely Spell Pierce; It's a strong early play, protects the combo, and forces your opponent to play around it. If I add two pierces then I'd maybe add 2 counters to the board. Then again, Simic hasnt been bad. Any opinions?
Kiora, Master of the Depths - I've been siding her into the grindy matchups, but she's only stuck to the board twice. I really liked her in those two matches though. She gave me virtual card advantage with her +1 (untap a land and a dork) and actual card advantage with her -2. Something else might be better but I'll keep testing her for now.
What are people's Tron plans? I've generally been siding in 2 Aven and a Clique and running those next to Pridemages and the Ghost Quarter. I see a lot of Tron and feel we are like 45:55 in their favor.
Some questions:
Should the two Simic Charms be counters or something else?
I use Forgetenders for Pyroclasms, Angers, and vs burn. Would 2 counters be better?
Is Kiora legit to consider in this shell as a replacement for Elspeth to improve grindy matches (where Elspeth is usually good when we are already winning), or is Elspeth still preferred for the extra slot and her ability to pump and close?
Cheers
I had a lot of thoughts, but only time for a quick response right now. I think Tron is a great matchup if you land Geist of Saint Traft. I bring in Stony Silence and try to rush them down with very aggressive creatures.
Have people here talked about Amaral's Knightfall-Zoo list that top 4'd Porto Allegre?
After giving it a spin, I must say it's really streamlined. I'm impressed. Less reliant on the combo, full on Zoo approach. Tremendous pressure. List can be found here:
How do you all deal with Scapeshift? I got wrecked by it at my last FNM, and have no simple outs. They can easily bounce Leyline of Sanctity and counter or kill Aven Mindcensor before they go off. With Cryptic Command, Sakura-Tribe Elder, and assorted removal, they can easily stall until they hit 6-7 lands for the insta-kill.
My best idea so far is Gaddock Teeg, as it turns off both Cryptic and Scapeshift. But I still have to avoid getting it bolted or Pyroclasmed.
Have people here talked about Amaral's Knightfall-Zoo list that top 4'd Porto Allegre?
After giving it a spin, I must say it's really streamlined. I'm impressed. Less reliant on the combo, full on Zoo approach. Tremendous pressure. List can be found here:
While I've been having good success with bant knightfall, I'll probably switch to Amarals exact 60 once I get 4 goyfs. It seems like a incredibly powerful linear aggro deck with a T3 kill thrown in for good measure, and I feel that's where I want to be right now in modern. I particularly like the Elspeths in his list.
In response to the Tron match up: I see more RG Tron than anything else, so I feel like if I beat out pyroclasm or get a t3 combo it's mine, otherwise I can't stop tron if it's gears are moving, and then I feel like it's just under 50. I see more of it than I'd like, so I'm probably just bias towards negativity I've been thinking of bringing in Stony silence over the Avens (then I wouldn't have to play around the search hate); I'll try Stony Silence next week.
On 4c-KnightZoo.. A part of me feels like it plays smooth, but then again I'd prefer to just play Naya Zoo; it feels stronger to me. But the 4c Knight Zoo is def one of the most competitive builds of this deck. Goyf also feels underwhelming. He's Usually a 2/3 vs aggro, and scales up against decks that grind. As such, I'd prefer him as a two-of. This shell is still young so it's going to take time to see which builds are best in which meta.
after some pondering, researching on this forum and on decklists that have put up results, I've come up with an initial Bant Midrange Knightfall deck for your scrutiny.
- Given the all-in nature of the full combo deck version, I took into account the GP Porto Alegre lists where the deck played like Zoo (in this case midrange), with the the combo as an alternative win-con in case the pieces are drawn.
- This has not been built or sleeved, so I'm working with zero playtesting and results and relying solely on how it looks good on paper
- I don't own Goyfs, but there are a lot of Jund decks in my meta, so the SMiter and Liege were added.
- the one-of Horribly Awry is a cute, yet feasible addition
- The Wilt-Leaf Liege was a call between that or a lone Courser of Kruphix.
- the mana base may need some changes, I just wrote this off of my traditional 3-2-1 dual land mix, fetch and basic package
- the Rogue's Passage was a toss-up between that or Sejiri Steppe. After reading through these pages, it was still a tough call, but settled for the Passage in case I got it on my opening hand.
- Sideboard suggestions very welcome.
Thanks!
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Legacy: GWB Maverick; W Death and Taxes
Modern: GWB Abzan Coco; BWR Mardu; GWB Knightfall; BW Eldrazi Taxes
Tiny Leaders: GWB Anafenza
Hey guys, I've been trying my own variant on a Zoo Knightfall list at a few local tournaments, and it's been performing very well. The only really bad matchup I've found so far has been affinity, and that can probably be helped at least somewhat by a more refined sideboard.
I'm curious what you guys think of the list, let me know.
Have people here talked about Amaral's Knightfall-Zoo list that top 4'd Porto Allegre?
After giving it a spin, I must say it's really streamlined. I'm impressed. Less reliant on the combo, full on Zoo approach. Tremendous pressure. List can be found here:
The full geist playset feels a bit counter-intuitive, as we usually don't play legends x4. They ARE the best at what they do, and you can win off of one copy so maxing out on them might make sense.
Another thing is maybe we could just swap the nacatls for steppe lynx and keep it bant? The full 12 fetchlands seem more than enough support for them, not counting knight shenanigans. I never played the 4 color zoo version but it seems to me the bant version takes less damage from lands. I usually need only to fetch one shock then i search basics forever. We loose bolt though, but it might be worth it.
Elspeth is interesting, but i've been pleased with wilt-leaf liege in this spot. The turn you cast it it deals one less damage than the +3/+3 if you have geist or any g/w creature, but you get a 4/4 beater the next turn. Liege also works better with multiple creatures, but doesn't provide evasion like elspeth. Lastly multiple liege are a beating and i like to just «get» liliana players with it. Midrange matchups are rough for the combo, having 4x voice and 4x liege feels really good in those games.
Last thought, i agree with people that say goyf doesn't seem that impressive here. It seems like they are the default beatstick but you just rely on the opponent binning stuff... i guess bolt helps binning creatures as opposed to just having path but i'm not sure if people just jam goyf because he's goyf. I've been happy so far with 4x pridemage and 4x voice, if i owned goyf i'd probaly use them in a better goyf deck than this one.
I don't own CCs so can't swap to accommodate them. I do own Coursers and most other discussed cards from the thread. It's intended to have decent angles of attack and matchups across the board. This is the 1st time I've sleeves up in a while so I was wondering what cards over perform or underperform in a list like this.
Another thing is maybe we could just swap the nacatls for steppe lynx and keep it bant? The full 12 fetchlands seem more than enough support for them, not counting knight shenanigans. I never played the 4 color zoo version but it seems to me the bant version takes less damage from lands. I usually need only to fetch one shock then i search basics forever. We loose bolt though, but it might be worth it.
In my experience, the Nacatl has been irreplaceable, and Bolt is by far the best card in its slot. I'm also playing Collected Company, I'm not quite sure why that variant isn't more popular. It's never a dead draw after turn 2-3, and a resolved Collected Company (on your opponent's end step usually, that way at the very least if they counter it, they're tapped out for your turn) almost always allows you to pull ahead of your opponent.
Last thought, i agree with people that say goyf doesn't seem that impressive here. It seems like they are the default beatstick but you just rely on the opponent binning stuff... i guess bolt helps binning creatures as opposed to just having path but i'm not sure if people just jam goyf because he's goyf. I've been happy so far with 4x pridemage and 4x voice, if i owned goyf i'd probaly use them in a better goyf deck than this one.
While Goyf isn't quite as good in this deck as in some, I think it's still worth playing. In my experience, it's by far the best aggro creature in that slot. It gets out of bolt range fairly quickly, and it can easily draw an Abrupt Decay just before you play your Knight or cast Collected Company. My Goyfs usually end up being 4/5 or 5/6 pretty easily, depending on the opponent.
When playing Goyf, you also need to consider that if your opponent has Inquisition or Thoughtseize (which they often will), they're usually taking Retreat, which makes Goyf bigger.
5-0'd a GPT today beating BW tokens 2-0, Scapeshift 2-1, Grixis twin 2-1, Nacatl Burn 2-0 and Merfolk 2-0. Rhox war monk was pretty good out of the board. I think I got the combo kill close to 5 times today, deck has felt consistent. Even mediocre hands can come back easily with coco and the combo.
I wasn't interested in playing for byes in GP vancouver for a limited format, so I dropped before cut to top8 since prizes were already decided.
R1: vs. Affinity [0-2]
Game one I kept Voice, Knight, Qasali and lands. I couldn't draw anything important as his t1 and t2 etched champions closed out the game.
Game two I kept 2 dorks, Goyf and stony silence. His T1 etched champion made me cry. Stoney Silence landed, a few turns later another champion hit the table and it was a grindy painful loss.
My opponent asked to see the list and believed he was lucky to get there vs Skites, Stoney Silence, EE and a deck that could have really pushed harder on the attack.
I need SB answers to champion. The rest of his deck was very beatable.
R2: vs. Yuya Watanabe's UW creature/ sun Titan/ Emeria deck. [2-0]
Game 1 I got there with an Elspeth pumped Goyf over a few turns.
Game two he verdicted my Noble Hierarch, Voice and Knight. Next turn I played Thrun. The rest of my hand was 2 Mana Leak and Negate. His Ojutai's Commands would have been good otherwise but GG.
Round 3: vs Grixis Twin [1-2]
This match wasn't real magic a lot of the time. T1 birds got bolted. T2 voice was met by Kolaghan's Command 2 dmg and discard. I dropped Smiter into play and swung for 6. Added Goyf to the board with path open and went to game 2.
Game two I was stuck on ghost quarter forest hallowed fountain for the entire game. I hung in for a while with counterspells on the pestermites and deceiver but he eventually just got there.
The 3rd game was just one of those ones where his answers lined up with my plays. He had combo in hand all game so I played it slow, but eventually had to act due to snap beats. I must say at this stage that my mana base didn't work well against twin. Negate and Dispell are not effective with only one blue source that can get tapped by exarch and co. Opponent said that he was afraid of CoCo the whole match. Might need to find a set.
Round 4: vs. Burn. [2-1]
Won game 1 on the back of the combo on my turn 3. He was stuck on 1 land on the play and I was at 7 life. I pumped knight to an 11/11 staying at a high life total based on a possible two mana representing 6 damage.
Game two he got me with a couple goblin guides, searing blaze, Boros charm ... The norm. My hand had birds, elephant and voice but awkward lands. I took 4 from lands which was not good. [flooded strand, ghost quarter].
Game three was pretty sweet. I played Heirarch, followed by tapped stomping ground and voice. Blocked guide, played voice and attacked for 4 with an exalted token. Then his rift bolt came off suspend, I prevented the damage and fought my 3/3 token against his 2/3 Swiftspear. The intent was he would have to use another spell to pump the spear and then I could block to trade, soaking up his cards and killing the Swiftspear. He only had two mountains and couldn't cast his Boros charms, so lost his 2/3 to the token. Then in his main phase he sighed and played a bloodstained mire. Poor sequencing cost him.
Overall it was fun to play. I think I will attempt CoCo next week and remove leaks and goyfs. I am very much on the no-Goyf-in-Bant school of though after testing him today. Voice on the other hand was great. Wolf run was also bad as I kept drawing it and straining the mana of my spells in hand. I used it to pump for 2 dmg once ...
Definitely room for improvement in this list!
Apologies for poor writing an. It's midnight on the train home and I'm typing on my iPhone 4!
5-0'd a GPT today beating BW tokens 2-0, Scapeshift 2-1, Grixis twin 2-1, Nacatl Burn 2-0 and Merfolk 2-0. Rhox war monk was pretty good out of the board. I think I got the combo kill close to 5 times today, deck has felt consistent. Even mediocre hands can come back easily with coco and the combo.
I wasn't interested in playing for byes in GP vancouver for a limited format, so I dropped before cut to top8 since prizes were already decided.
Did the meddling mage put in real work in any match ups?
5-0'd a GPT today beating BW tokens 2-0, Scapeshift 2-1, Grixis twin 2-1, Nacatl Burn 2-0 and Merfolk 2-0. Rhox war monk was pretty good out of the board. I think I got the combo kill close to 5 times today, deck has felt consistent. Even mediocre hands can come back easily with coco and the combo.
I wasn't interested in playing for byes in GP vancouver for a limited format, so I dropped before cut to top8 since prizes were already decided.
A little report?
Round 1 BW tokens: Now that I think about it, it ended 1-0-1 with the second game going to time.
I lost the roll to go first, he opens with the hideaway land. I open noble, he inquisitions taking retreat. I play the knight and it gets path'd. He's playing slaughter pact and path to exile, so I end up trading a bit of resources here as he plays removal/token generators a while and land a retreat. He lands a Sorin and swings with the team for 12 lifelink going back to 20, while a collected company into knight ends the game when i still have a voice, bird, retreat and ~5 mana in play. Game 2 he goes first and plays rest in peace. We spend a long game trading. Rhox war monk forces bad trades for him and floats my life high. I was ahead in life something to the tune of 35-15 when the round went to time.
Round 2 Scapeshift: 2-1
He wins the roll Game 1 I combo out turn 4 after he remands my first attempt to play retreat on turn 3. Game two he casts the lethal scapeshift the turn before the smiter and voice beats were lethal. Next game I get him with Aven mindcensor on his first fetch, and a second in hand brings the game home with noble exalted backup. Meddling mage was ready to come down and name scapeshift but mindcensor was enough.
Round 3 Grixis: 2-1
I win the roll. Someone mentioned this guy was on twin, but I saw more of a grixis midrange deck - not sure if I just never saw the combo. I lead with noble, he plays inquisition and sees voice, two paths and some land. Takes the voice, and I rip geist from the top. Land geist, he plays jace, vryn's prodigy. I draw sejiri steppe, attack and path jace. He cliques me during draw, I didn't have anything. I play sejiri steppe on blue for geist and get in the second swing. This puts his life very low and forces awkward blocks for a couple turns until a lethal threat gets through. Game 2 I keep a one-land+noble+voice mull to 6, scrying away the non-land on top. He goes turn 1 thoughtseize and sees my awkward keep and takes the noble. I got cliqued, snapped and bolted out of the game in short order, finding land and dorks too late. Game 3 goes back and forth a bit until a scavenging ooze lands. I keep him off 5 in the yard for jace until he tries to go for it with inquisition (seeing the land left in hand) into lighthouse on his own turn. He gets the flip and hits scooze with -2/-0. I untap and topdeck the winning retreat.
Round 4 Nacatl burn: 2-0
He goes first opening with guide, giving me a land. I open with a bird. Second guide with rift bolt suspend seems pretty dire turn 2, I reveal path. I play voice, he attacks into voice and path. He blazes away the elemental token. I play out a smiter and he plays eidolon. I draw the land for company and edge him out in the race. Game two He mulls and opens double nacatl. I have an opener featuring noble into rhox war monk, which forces a double lightning bolt to trade for it, I play collected company next turn which hits a second rhox war monk, and that puts the game out of range.
Round 5 UW Merfolk 2-0
I win the roll, and my opener has a turn 3 combo. He bounces my bird with harbinger, which, in combination with drawing sejiri steppe as my 3rd land, causes a turn delay in playing retreat. Makes no difference, combo was good. Game two he gets an early rest in peace and we trade resources (rhox war monk caused blockers to get left up to trade with it) and then when he walks into a path on his lord taking away islandwalk. Good blocks leave me ahead a bit on the board, but chaining merrow rejeery brings it back a bit. I keep forcing trades with kessig as I have the combo in play, but can't make big knights due to the rest in peace. I find a qasali pridemage which ends the game on the spot.
Best of my memory - I was tired towards the end so might not be 100% accurate
Meddling mage wasn't really useful in these matchups - just scapeshift really. He's more there for combo like lantern, amulet, grishoal, through the breach, rg tron etc.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
25 creatures is pretty much the minimum amount needed for coco to be great, and even then in my list I'm only running 3 cocos, though it's mostly because I need to cram a lot of other cards in the deck while still maintaining my creature count.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
1x Breeding Pool
2x Flooded Strand
2x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Hallowed Fountain
1x Island
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Plains
1x Sejiri Steppe
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (25)
1x Birds of Paradise
1x Eternal Witness
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Loxodon Smiter
4x Noble Hierarch
3x Qasali Pridemage
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Steppe Lynx
3x Voice of Resurgence
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
Planeswalker (1)
1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Instant (8)
3x Collected Company
3x Path to Exile
2x Simic Charm
2x Aven Mindcensor
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Kiora, Master of the Depths
3x Rhox War Monk
2x Spellskite
2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Vendilion Clique
I've taken a break from grixtwin to try this deck out. I wanted to report some observations from the few local events and some non-competitive play, and maybe get some suggestions. I went 3-1, 4-0 and 3-1 with the above list. Some comments on certain cards:
Sejiri Steppe - It's pretty useless for protecting the combo versus an experienced player, but I also don't mind the utility of having it. It usually nets a free attack, and if backed by a Simic Charm, I fizzle out the removal played in response to the land drop.
Gavony Township - I like this land better than getting unblockable for 5 with passage or having to go a 4th color for trample. Coralhelm clears the ground, and those things don't matter versus control decks. Gavony improves the grindy match ups in my opinion by pumping your line.
Ghost Quarter - I see a lot of Tron, but it can also get you an extra landfall trigger, or it can take out a manland.
Steppe Lynx: this card is underrated, but that's probably because the 3rd and 4th copy are significantly worse than the 1st and 2nd. He takes the spot of what would otherwise probably be a 2nd Sc'ooze and a single 'Goyf (and/or 2 more Birds). I don't see many graveyard shenanigans, so 1 Sc'ooze is enough; and I think 'Goyf is underwhelming in this shell, but the singleton performs well. My reason For 2 Steppe Lynx is that the card is explosive, which pays in modern. He has synergy with the theme and combo, and I'm usually swinging for 4 with him, but sometimes sneak in attacks for 5-7 on turn 2 with a simic charm or exalted triggers. If he gets chump blocked then you only traded out 1 mana, and if he chump blocks after a swing or 2, you've gotten your value. He usually draws removal after 2 early 4 dmg swings, which is what we want. It's a great card for early pressure, and good later in the game if you hold your lands like i do, but bad in multiples; 1-2 is optimal.
Eternal Witness - this card gives huge value off Coco and in general. I think people underappreciate it
Loxodon Smiter - awesome versus discard and a good beater with exalted trigs. I've played Rhox War Monk in this spot against decks like zoo, burn, affinity, and it performed to my satisfaction. I think Finks might still be better here, but Rhox probably nets you more life-gain if he sticks. Simic charm has been useful for fizzling removal, bouncing wormcoil engines and other annoying stuff when they hit, or for sneaking in extra damage. A part of me feels this should be two counterspells. Most likely Spell Pierce; It's a strong early play, protects the combo, and forces your opponent to play around it. If I add two pierces then I'd maybe add 2 counters to the board. Then again, Simic hasnt been bad. Any opinions?
Kiora, Master of the Depths - I've been siding her into the grindy matchups, but she's only stuck to the board twice. I really liked her in those two matches though. She gave me virtual card advantage with her +1 (untap a land and a dork) and actual card advantage with her -2. Something else might be better but I'll keep testing her for now.
What are people's Tron plans? I've generally been siding in 2 Aven and a Clique and running those next to Pridemages and the Ghost Quarter. I see a lot of Tron and feel we are like 45:55 in their favor.
Some questions:
Should the two Simic Charms be counters or something else?
I use Forgetenders for Pyroclasms, Angers, and vs burn. Would 2 counters be better?
Is Kiora legit to consider in this shell as a replacement for Elspeth to improve grindy matches (where Elspeth is usually good when we are already winning), or is Elspeth still preferred for the extra slot and her ability to pump and close?
Cheers
I had a lot of thoughts, but only time for a quick response right now. I think Tron is a great matchup if you land Geist of Saint Traft. I bring in Stony Silence and try to rush them down with very aggressive creatures.
Check out Odds//Ends - My articles on Quirky Cards and Oddball Builds
Long-time PucaTrade member and sometime author. Send me cards!
Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
After giving it a spin, I must say it's really streamlined. I'm impressed. Less reliant on the combo, full on Zoo approach. Tremendous pressure. List can be found here:
http://modernnexus.com/grand-prix-pittsburgh-deck-previews/
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
My best idea so far is Gaddock Teeg, as it turns off both Cryptic and Scapeshift. But I still have to avoid getting it bolted or Pyroclasmed.
Check out Odds//Ends - My articles on Quirky Cards and Oddball Builds
Long-time PucaTrade member and sometime author. Send me cards!
Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
While I've been having good success with bant knightfall, I'll probably switch to Amarals exact 60 once I get 4 goyfs. It seems like a incredibly powerful linear aggro deck with a T3 kill thrown in for good measure, and I feel that's where I want to be right now in modern. I particularly like the Elspeths in his list.
Modern -
On 4c-KnightZoo.. A part of me feels like it plays smooth, but then again I'd prefer to just play Naya Zoo; it feels stronger to me. But the 4c Knight Zoo is def one of the most competitive builds of this deck. Goyf also feels underwhelming. He's Usually a 2/3 vs aggro, and scales up against decks that grind. As such, I'd prefer him as a two-of. This shell is still young so it's going to take time to see which builds are best in which meta.
after some pondering, researching on this forum and on decklists that have put up results, I've come up with an initial Bant Midrange Knightfall deck for your scrutiny.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bant-knightfall-midrange/
Notes:
- Given the all-in nature of the full combo deck version, I took into account the GP Porto Alegre lists where the deck played like Zoo (in this case midrange), with the the combo as an alternative win-con in case the pieces are drawn.
- This has not been built or sleeved, so I'm working with zero playtesting and results and relying solely on how it looks good on paper
- I don't own Goyfs, but there are a lot of Jund decks in my meta, so the SMiter and Liege were added.
- the one-of Horribly Awry is a cute, yet feasible addition
- The Wilt-Leaf Liege was a call between that or a lone Courser of Kruphix.
- the mana base may need some changes, I just wrote this off of my traditional 3-2-1 dual land mix, fetch and basic package
- the Rogue's Passage was a toss-up between that or Sejiri Steppe. After reading through these pages, it was still a tough call, but settled for the Passage in case I got it on my opening hand.
- Sideboard suggestions very welcome.
Thanks!
Modern: GWB Abzan Coco; BWR Mardu; GWB Knightfall; BW Eldrazi Taxes
Tiny Leaders: GWB Anafenza
I'm curious what you guys think of the list, let me know.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Geist of Saint Traft
Non Creature 12
4 Collected Company
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Arid Mesa
2 Breeding Pool
2 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Snow-Covered Plains
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Loxodon Smiter
1 Ranger of Eos
1 Hushwing Gryff
2 Spellskite
1 Path to Exile
The full geist playset feels a bit counter-intuitive, as we usually don't play legends x4. They ARE the best at what they do, and you can win off of one copy so maxing out on them might make sense.
Another thing is maybe we could just swap the nacatls for steppe lynx and keep it bant? The full 12 fetchlands seem more than enough support for them, not counting knight shenanigans. I never played the 4 color zoo version but it seems to me the bant version takes less damage from lands. I usually need only to fetch one shock then i search basics forever. We loose bolt though, but it might be worth it.
Elspeth is interesting, but i've been pleased with wilt-leaf liege in this spot. The turn you cast it it deals one less damage than the +3/+3 if you have geist or any g/w creature, but you get a 4/4 beater the next turn. Liege also works better with multiple creatures, but doesn't provide evasion like elspeth. Lastly multiple liege are a beating and i like to just «get» liliana players with it. Midrange matchups are rough for the combo, having 4x voice and 4x liege feels really good in those games.
Last thought, i agree with people that say goyf doesn't seem that impressive here. It seems like they are the default beatstick but you just rely on the opponent binning stuff... i guess bolt helps binning creatures as opposed to just having path but i'm not sure if people just jam goyf because he's goyf. I've been happy so far with 4x pridemage and 4x voice, if i owned goyf i'd probaly use them in a better goyf deck than this one.
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Loxodon Smiter
4 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Mana Leak
3 Return to Coralhelm
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Stony Silence
2 Negate
1 Dispell
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Kor Firewalker
I don't own CCs so can't swap to accommodate them. I do own Coursers and most other discussed cards from the thread. It's intended to have decent angles of attack and matchups across the board. This is the 1st time I've sleeves up in a while so I was wondering what cards over perform or underperform in a list like this.
Thanks in advance!
I just realized I didn't put 3 Voice on the list. I updated the list.
Thanks in advance for your feedback!
Modern: GWB Abzan Coco; BWR Mardu; GWB Knightfall; BW Eldrazi Taxes
Tiny Leaders: GWB Anafenza
In my experience, the Nacatl has been irreplaceable, and Bolt is by far the best card in its slot. I'm also playing Collected Company, I'm not quite sure why that variant isn't more popular. It's never a dead draw after turn 2-3, and a resolved Collected Company (on your opponent's end step usually, that way at the very least if they counter it, they're tapped out for your turn) almost always allows you to pull ahead of your opponent.
While Goyf isn't quite as good in this deck as in some, I think it's still worth playing. In my experience, it's by far the best aggro creature in that slot. It gets out of bolt range fairly quickly, and it can easily draw an Abrupt Decay just before you play your Knight or cast Collected Company. My Goyfs usually end up being 4/5 or 5/6 pretty easily, depending on the opponent.
When playing Goyf, you also need to consider that if your opponent has Inquisition or Thoughtseize (which they often will), they're usually taking Retreat, which makes Goyf bigger.
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging ooze
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Loxodon Smiter
1x Eternal Witness
Noncreature (12)
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
4x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Breeding Pool
2x Temple Garden
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
3x Aven Mindcensor
2x Burrenton Forge-tender
2x Spellskite
2x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Meddling Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
5-0'd a GPT today beating BW tokens 2-0, Scapeshift 2-1, Grixis twin 2-1, Nacatl Burn 2-0 and Merfolk 2-0. Rhox war monk was pretty good out of the board. I think I got the combo kill close to 5 times today, deck has felt consistent. Even mediocre hands can come back easily with coco and the combo.
I wasn't interested in playing for byes in GP vancouver for a limited format, so I dropped before cut to top8 since prizes were already decided.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Loxodon Smiter
4 Path to Exile
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Mana Leak
3 Return to Coralhelm
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Kessig Wolf Run
3 Stony Silence
2 Negate
1 Dispell
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Spellskite
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Kor Firewalker
I went 2-2 with this list at the LGS last night.
R1: vs. Affinity [0-2]
Game one I kept Voice, Knight, Qasali and lands. I couldn't draw anything important as his t1 and t2 etched champions closed out the game.
Game two I kept 2 dorks, Goyf and stony silence. His T1 etched champion made me cry. Stoney Silence landed, a few turns later another champion hit the table and it was a grindy painful loss.
My opponent asked to see the list and believed he was lucky to get there vs Skites, Stoney Silence, EE and a deck that could have really pushed harder on the attack.
I need SB answers to champion. The rest of his deck was very beatable.
R2: vs. Yuya Watanabe's UW creature/ sun Titan/ Emeria deck. [2-0]
Game 1 I got there with an Elspeth pumped Goyf over a few turns.
Game two he verdicted my Noble Hierarch, Voice and Knight. Next turn I played Thrun. The rest of my hand was 2 Mana Leak and Negate. His Ojutai's Commands would have been good otherwise but GG.
Round 3: vs Grixis Twin [1-2]
This match wasn't real magic a lot of the time. T1 birds got bolted. T2 voice was met by Kolaghan's Command 2 dmg and discard. I dropped Smiter into play and swung for 6. Added Goyf to the board with path open and went to game 2.
Game two I was stuck on ghost quarter forest hallowed fountain for the entire game. I hung in for a while with counterspells on the pestermites and deceiver but he eventually just got there.
The 3rd game was just one of those ones where his answers lined up with my plays. He had combo in hand all game so I played it slow, but eventually had to act due to snap beats. I must say at this stage that my mana base didn't work well against twin. Negate and Dispell are not effective with only one blue source that can get tapped by exarch and co. Opponent said that he was afraid of CoCo the whole match. Might need to find a set.
Round 4: vs. Burn. [2-1]
Won game 1 on the back of the combo on my turn 3. He was stuck on 1 land on the play and I was at 7 life. I pumped knight to an 11/11 staying at a high life total based on a possible two mana representing 6 damage.
Game two he got me with a couple goblin guides, searing blaze, Boros charm ... The norm. My hand had birds, elephant and voice but awkward lands. I took 4 from lands which was not good. [flooded strand, ghost quarter].
Game three was pretty sweet. I played Heirarch, followed by tapped stomping ground and voice. Blocked guide, played voice and attacked for 4 with an exalted token. Then his rift bolt came off suspend, I prevented the damage and fought my 3/3 token against his 2/3 Swiftspear. The intent was he would have to use another spell to pump the spear and then I could block to trade, soaking up his cards and killing the Swiftspear. He only had two mountains and couldn't cast his Boros charms, so lost his 2/3 to the token. Then in his main phase he sighed and played a bloodstained mire. Poor sequencing cost him.
Overall it was fun to play. I think I will attempt CoCo next week and remove leaks and goyfs. I am very much on the no-Goyf-in-Bant school of though after testing him today. Voice on the other hand was great. Wolf run was also bad as I kept drawing it and straining the mana of my spells in hand. I used it to pump for 2 dmg once ...
Definitely room for improvement in this list!
Apologies for poor writing an. It's midnight on the train home and I'm typing on my iPhone 4!
Did the meddling mage put in real work in any match ups?
Round 1 BW tokens: Now that I think about it, it ended 1-0-1 with the second game going to time.
I lost the roll to go first, he opens with the hideaway land. I open noble, he inquisitions taking retreat. I play the knight and it gets path'd. He's playing slaughter pact and path to exile, so I end up trading a bit of resources here as he plays removal/token generators a while and land a retreat. He lands a Sorin and swings with the team for 12 lifelink going back to 20, while a collected company into knight ends the game when i still have a voice, bird, retreat and ~5 mana in play. Game 2 he goes first and plays rest in peace. We spend a long game trading. Rhox war monk forces bad trades for him and floats my life high. I was ahead in life something to the tune of 35-15 when the round went to time.
Round 2 Scapeshift: 2-1
He wins the roll Game 1 I combo out turn 4 after he remands my first attempt to play retreat on turn 3. Game two he casts the lethal scapeshift the turn before the smiter and voice beats were lethal. Next game I get him with Aven mindcensor on his first fetch, and a second in hand brings the game home with noble exalted backup. Meddling mage was ready to come down and name scapeshift but mindcensor was enough.
Round 3 Grixis: 2-1
I win the roll. Someone mentioned this guy was on twin, but I saw more of a grixis midrange deck - not sure if I just never saw the combo. I lead with noble, he plays inquisition and sees voice, two paths and some land. Takes the voice, and I rip geist from the top. Land geist, he plays jace, vryn's prodigy. I draw sejiri steppe, attack and path jace. He cliques me during draw, I didn't have anything. I play sejiri steppe on blue for geist and get in the second swing. This puts his life very low and forces awkward blocks for a couple turns until a lethal threat gets through. Game 2 I keep a one-land+noble+voice mull to 6, scrying away the non-land on top. He goes turn 1 thoughtseize and sees my awkward keep and takes the noble. I got cliqued, snapped and bolted out of the game in short order, finding land and dorks too late. Game 3 goes back and forth a bit until a scavenging ooze lands. I keep him off 5 in the yard for jace until he tries to go for it with inquisition (seeing the land left in hand) into lighthouse on his own turn. He gets the flip and hits scooze with -2/-0. I untap and topdeck the winning retreat.
Round 4 Nacatl burn: 2-0
He goes first opening with guide, giving me a land. I open with a bird. Second guide with rift bolt suspend seems pretty dire turn 2, I reveal path. I play voice, he attacks into voice and path. He blazes away the elemental token. I play out a smiter and he plays eidolon. I draw the land for company and edge him out in the race. Game two He mulls and opens double nacatl. I have an opener featuring noble into rhox war monk, which forces a double lightning bolt to trade for it, I play collected company next turn which hits a second rhox war monk, and that puts the game out of range.
Round 5 UW Merfolk 2-0
I win the roll, and my opener has a turn 3 combo. He bounces my bird with harbinger, which, in combination with drawing sejiri steppe as my 3rd land, causes a turn delay in playing retreat. Makes no difference, combo was good. Game two he gets an early rest in peace and we trade resources (rhox war monk caused blockers to get left up to trade with it) and then when he walks into a path on his lord taking away islandwalk. Good blocks leave me ahead a bit on the board, but chaining merrow rejeery brings it back a bit. I keep forcing trades with kessig as I have the combo in play, but can't make big knights due to the rest in peace. I find a qasali pridemage which ends the game on the spot.
Best of my memory - I was tired towards the end so might not be 100% accurate
Meddling mage wasn't really useful in these matchups - just scapeshift really. He's more there for combo like lantern, amulet, grishoal, through the breach, rg tron etc.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG