Well, if you're splashing red there's Boros Charm. heh.
Biggest thing is to take the Jundy approach to sweepers: Play one dude at a time and make them 1-for-1 you with them. Problem is when you play dorks you can't do that
Gavony Township is important in altering this dynamic. It doesn't take long for your pair of mana dorks to be beating down for 6+ damage. This is also why I think it is important to run 2x Townships - Knight often won't live to fetch one, so naturally drawing one is often key.
Well, if you're splashing red there's Boros Charm. heh.
Biggest thing is to take the Jundy approach to sweepers: Play one dude at a time and make them 1-for-1 you with them. Problem is when you play dorks you can't do that
Gavony Township is important in altering this dynamic. It doesn't take long for your pair of mana dorks to be beating down for 6+ damage. This is also why I think it is important to run 2x Townships - Knight often won't live to fetch one, so naturally drawing one is often key.
Township often makes the sweeper even worse for you since you spent tempo jamming counters on your dorks and now they die to sweepers
To the people saying flash creatures/manlands are giving them problems:
Flash creatures and manlands are just like any other creature-u just tap them down before they block. If you combo correctly then they do nothing special at all. They key is to complete your combo AFTER blockers have been declared, not during your mainphase.
Rogues passage is merely cute and it competes with ghost quarter and township, and you can only run so many colorless lands. Passage only matters in the affinity mu and boggles. Against affinity, the combo isnt that good anyways since we are life-sensitive and they may have spellskite, plus we have a lot of powerful sb options. And boggles i like 2% of the meta, and we cant combo them anyways if they have a lifelink enchantment.
Ghost quarter is the best colorless land imo because it is good-to-strong in about 70% of matchups in modern (as well as adding 2 more lands to the gy to help combo). Township is fine against jund and grixis sometimes, but can be a little superfluous. The games you lose u tend to get outclassed by a powerful creature (bob, jace, olivia, tasagur) and tapping 5 mana every turn doesnt always solve this problem. The tempo loss from townshipping 3 times can be just as bad (like Pokken said).
Other ideas:
1) commune with the gods. Way to slow for modern. You can't get by in modern my spending 2 mana for a filtering effect without a huge upside (sylvan scrying).
2) 4x voice is absolutely a must for this deck. Yeah a grizzly bear sucks against about half the field, but against the other half, voice is the 2nd best card in our deck besides Path. It makes your opponent make weird plays, and you can punish them for it with chord. Its also the best 2 drop we can play (sorry goyf), and we need a good 2 drop for when we dont have the dork draw.
3) As a lot of people have said, I think company sucks in our deck.
4) A big one: I think sejeri steppe is godawful. Its a very 'magical christmasland' card, and is just too punishing for modern when drawn, and hurts our dmg output when we combo. Cut it, its real bad. If it ever has saved an attacking knight when you combo by holding a fetch, then it is only because your opponent misplayed. It will NOT work once people become savvy. Plus, bonus, our opponent may think we are (incorrectly) on sejeri steppe, so they will usually (correctly) play like we have one in our deck.
I've been passionately working on this deck for a few weeks now, and have had great results (though small sample size is hard to predict. Ive only played probably 20 irl tournament rounds total, though I am like 17-3). Lets keep up the tuning guys!
How do you guys feel about Rhox War Monk as a beater?
I've thought about it a few times. He would really only shine against mono-red, for the same reason metwo said: he just doesnt compete with any of the big creatures.
Also, our main problem is our glut of good 3 drops. There's tons of good choices, but being merely 'good' won't cut it. Thats why I play 0 finks, smiters, and geists.
I haven't played with the serum visions yet, but they seem ok. They were: +1 pridemage, +1 chord, +2 wall of omens. I might end up going down to 2 or 3 serum visions, but idk what creatures to replace them with. I also am not sure if I'm going greedy by only running 22 lands and 6 dorks, so I could cut 2 visions for a land/dork, but I then again am not totally happy with having 30 mana sources in the deck. The Sb chamco is also an untested experiment I just saw a few mins ago earlier in the sub, and could be a worthy anti jund/grixis big dude, though it isn't as good against uw control, and that's the grindy matchup where we need the most help.
Sorry for the big post I am noob-how do I hide text?
To the people saying flash creatures/manlands are giving them problems:
Flash creatures and manlands are just like any other creature-u just tap them down before they block. If you combo correctly then they do nothing special at all. They key is to complete your combo AFTER blockers have been declared, not during your mainphase.
Rogues passage is merely cute and it competes with ghost quarter and township, and you can only run so many colorless lands. Passage only matters in the affinity mu and boggles. Against affinity, the combo isnt that good anyways since we are life-sensitive and they may have spellskite, plus we have a lot of powerful sb options. And boggles i like 2% of the meta, and we cant combo them anyways if they have a lifelink enchantment.
Ghost quarter is the best colorless land imo because it is good-to-strong in about 70% of matchups in modern (as well as adding 2 more lands to the gy to help combo). Township is fine against jund and grixis sometimes, but can be a little superfluous. The games you lose u tend to get outclassed by a powerful creature (bob, jace, olivia, tasagur) and tapping 5 mana every turn doesnt always solve this problem. The tempo loss from townshipping 3 times can be just as bad (like Pokken said).
Other ideas:
1) commune with the gods. Way to slow for modern. You can't get by in modern my spending 2 mana for a filtering effect without a huge upside (sylvan scrying).
2) 4x voice is absolutely a must for this deck. Yeah a grizzly bear sucks against about half the field, but against the other half, voice is the 2nd best card in our deck besides Path. It makes your opponent make weird plays, and you can punish them for it with chord. Its also the best 2 drop we can play (sorry goyf), and we need a good 2 drop for when we dont have the dork draw.
3) As a lot of people have said, I think company sucks in our deck.
4) A big one: I think sejeri steppe is godawful. Its a very 'magical christmasland' card, and is just too punishing for modern when drawn, and hurts our dmg output when we combo. Cut it, its real bad. If it ever has saved an attacking knight when you combo by holding a fetch, then it is only because your opponent misplayed. It will NOT work once people become savvy. Plus, bonus, our opponent may think we are (incorrectly) on sejeri steppe, so they will usually (correctly) play like we have one in our deck.
I've been passionately working on this deck for a few weeks now, and have had great results (though small sample size is hard to predict. Ive only played probably 20 irl tournament rounds total, though I am like 17-3). Lets keep up the tuning guys!
Commune has actually been a useful card for me. It may not be the best card, but it does a job not a lot of other cards can do.
I disagree. 1 mana is a lot less than 2 , and commune cant find path/chord. The main reason I cut walls for them is the mana reduction, and that's the biggest draw. 1 mana is a lot lot lot less mana than 2 (compare how much 1 mana filtering is played in modern to 2 mana filtering). I don't see any conflict with mana dorks-can you elaborate? It seems good with dorks since you are more likely to have an extra mana laying around to visions, though it does suck to draw a mana dork after turn 3. Also, scry is fantastic with courser. That being said...I will try out a commune or two. maybe.
I like using Commune in some other decks I have on turn 2 to pull a Hooting Mandrills. Love me a 4/4 Trample on turn two if it works out right.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
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Playing both mana dorks and one drops that you want to cast on curve leads you to awkward keeps and hands that play out awkwardly. Playing 6+ dorks makes you want to overload at the 3 spot which is awkward when combined with low land count and one drops.
Adding: If you look at decks that have been successful playing dorks in modern, they have things in common:
1) They don't overload at the 3-drop spot (see Abzan coco combo)
2) They don't play a lot of 1-drops that aren't also win conditions (see elves with dorks being part of the wincon, Abzan coco with viscera seer)
3) They typically have many strong mana sinks
To the people saying flash creatures/manlands are giving them problems:
Flash creatures and manlands are just like any other creature-u just tap them down before they block. If you combo correctly then they do nothing special at all. They key is to complete your combo AFTER blockers have been declared, not during your mainphase.
Rogues passage is merely cute and it competes with ghost quarter and township, and you can only run so many colorless lands. Passage only matters in the affinity mu and boggles. Against affinity, the combo isnt that good anyways since we are life-sensitive and they may have spellskite, plus we have a lot of powerful sb options. And boggles i like 2% of the meta, and we cant combo them anyways if they have a lifelink enchantment.
Ghost quarter is the best colorless land imo because it is good-to-strong in about 70% of matchups in modern (as well as adding 2 more lands to the gy to help combo). Township is fine against jund and grixis sometimes, but can be a little superfluous. The games you lose u tend to get outclassed by a powerful creature (bob, jace, olivia, tasagur) and tapping 5 mana every turn doesnt always solve this problem. The tempo loss from townshipping 3 times can be just as bad (like Pokken said).
Other ideas:
1) commune with the gods. Way to slow for modern. You can't get by in modern my spending 2 mana for a filtering effect without a huge upside (sylvan scrying).
2) 4x voice is absolutely a must for this deck. Yeah a grizzly bear sucks against about half the field, but against the other half, voice is the 2nd best card in our deck besides Path. It makes your opponent make weird plays, and you can punish them for it with chord. Its also the best 2 drop we can play (sorry goyf), and we need a good 2 drop for when we dont have the dork draw.
3) As a lot of people have said, I think company sucks in our deck.
4) A big one: I think sejeri steppe is godawful. Its a very 'magical christmasland' card, and is just too punishing for modern when drawn, and hurts our dmg output when we combo. Cut it, its real bad. If it ever has saved an attacking knight when you combo by holding a fetch, then it is only because your opponent misplayed. It will NOT work once people become savvy. Plus, bonus, our opponent may think we are (incorrectly) on sejeri steppe, so they will usually (correctly) play like we have one in our deck.
I've been passionately working on this deck for a few weeks now, and have had great results (though small sample size is hard to predict. Ive only played probably 20 irl tournament rounds total, though I am like 17-3). Lets keep up the tuning guys!
I agree with most points, though collected company has been so consistently incredible and gaming winning for me with a zoo syle build I have trouble believing anyone deriding it has actually tested it. The groans that emit from jund/junk, control, and splinter twin players when you play that card after they spent a whole turn removing your threats only to spit 10 more power onto the board is incredible.
I'm starting to contemplate taking out Sejeri Steppe for the reasons you've listed above, I've only twice in probably 200+ games online and in paper used it to protect the combo, though I have once or twice in addition to that used it to get a geist through or something. Every other time I've drawn it it's been terrible to deal with.
I think that there's definitely a deck somewhere down the path everyone here is going down but it's probably a few cards shy of being as competitive as a zoo build.
The threat of Sejiri stepping a removal spell any time I have an untapped knight won me a lot of games. Only did it once. But it doesn't take long before no one will cast a removal spell if you have an untapped knight. Which is awesome.
But when do u have an untapped knight? You attack with it or use its ability, and then they kill it.
So, if you have a kotr in play, have untapped with it (if they are smart the will kill it before you untap), and then you dont attack with it at any point, and dont use its ability to grow it/get value, then yeah, sejeri step is useful.
So, almost never.
However, it is very good value that we can 'threaten' steppe and make our opponents play awkwardly, but we don't have to register the card to actually do that.
You guys have lost your way if you don't use this often or think it needs to be cut. Whether helping chump primeval titan for an extra turn to get enough time to grow knight bigger than primetime, or just protecting the combo in the face of slaughter pact, Sejiri steppe is an integral part of the knight toolbox. Seriously.
Seriously.
edit: And for realz Collected Company "sucks in our deck"? Are we even playing the same game?
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I like using Commune in some other decks I have on turn 2 to pull a Hooting Mandrills. Love me a 4/4 Trample on turn two if it works out right.
Hooting mandrills seems like a really bad Nonbo with KoTR, what with exiling your graveyard, especially because most decks have very low spell density so you are almost forced to exile lands to get a fast Mandrills.
How do you guys feel about Rhox War Monk as a beater?
I love him but he can't compete with Anglers, Tasigurs an Goyfs sadly. Finks is 2 for 1 most of the time but I'm running one Rhino cause he is my pet card.
What about in the sideboard for Burn/Zoo? Although I think we alright have good MUs against them via finks
You guys have lost your way if you don't use this often or think it needs to be cut. Whether helping chump primeval titan for an extra turn to get enough time to grow knight bigger than primetime, or just protecting the combo in the face of slaughter pact, Sejiri steppe is an integral part of the knight toolbox. Seriously.
Seriously.
edit: And for realz Collected Company "sucks in our deck"? Are we even playing the same game?
Truth. Sejiri Steppe has won me multiple games. It is like asking Twin would they cut dispel because protecting the combo isn't needed and people will always kill the exarch/pestermite/krasis on sight. The number of times I have saved my twin combo with a counter is small, but it happens and it lets me end the game. Sure it sucks when it is in our hand and I wish we had brainstorm to shuffle in back into the deck, but hey bad draws happen.
Also, if you are running 27ish 3cmc creatures, Collected Company is an amazing card. That being said, if you are running fewer creatures it isn't as good (see the primer). I stopped playing it because I dropped my creature count. As far as Commune goes, if I could run Green sun's zenith I would run that. But Commune does a lot of good things for us similar to Green Sun's. It doesn't fetch the exact creature you need, but you generally get a good selection, it essentially costs 1 more than green sun's and it can help find our combo. At the same time, I am running 8 creatures that run of healthy GY, so being able to fuel them is only a bonus.
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Current Decks
Modern
No idea because my favorite decks keep getting banned or having the rules changed against them
How do you guys feel about Vendillion Clique. A 3/1 Flyer flash is pretty good as a beater, not too mention I know my deck has enough blue sources to support the double blue. It also plays nicely with the 1 restoration angel I run.
Gavony Township is important in altering this dynamic. It doesn't take long for your pair of mana dorks to be beating down for 6+ damage. This is also why I think it is important to run 2x Townships - Knight often won't live to fetch one, so naturally drawing one is often key.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
Township often makes the sweeper even worse for you since you spent tempo jamming counters on your dorks and now they die to sweepers
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Flash creatures and manlands are just like any other creature-u just tap them down before they block. If you combo correctly then they do nothing special at all. They key is to complete your combo AFTER blockers have been declared, not during your mainphase.
Rogues passage is merely cute and it competes with ghost quarter and township, and you can only run so many colorless lands. Passage only matters in the affinity mu and boggles. Against affinity, the combo isnt that good anyways since we are life-sensitive and they may have spellskite, plus we have a lot of powerful sb options. And boggles i like 2% of the meta, and we cant combo them anyways if they have a lifelink enchantment.
Ghost quarter is the best colorless land imo because it is good-to-strong in about 70% of matchups in modern (as well as adding 2 more lands to the gy to help combo). Township is fine against jund and grixis sometimes, but can be a little superfluous. The games you lose u tend to get outclassed by a powerful creature (bob, jace, olivia, tasagur) and tapping 5 mana every turn doesnt always solve this problem. The tempo loss from townshipping 3 times can be just as bad (like Pokken said).
Other ideas:
1) commune with the gods. Way to slow for modern. You can't get by in modern my spending 2 mana for a filtering effect without a huge upside (sylvan scrying).
2) 4x voice is absolutely a must for this deck. Yeah a grizzly bear sucks against about half the field, but against the other half, voice is the 2nd best card in our deck besides Path. It makes your opponent make weird plays, and you can punish them for it with chord. Its also the best 2 drop we can play (sorry goyf), and we need a good 2 drop for when we dont have the dork draw.
3) As a lot of people have said, I think company sucks in our deck.
4) A big one: I think sejeri steppe is godawful. Its a very 'magical christmasland' card, and is just too punishing for modern when drawn, and hurts our dmg output when we combo. Cut it, its real bad. If it ever has saved an attacking knight when you combo by holding a fetch, then it is only because your opponent misplayed. It will NOT work once people become savvy. Plus, bonus, our opponent may think we are (incorrectly) on sejeri steppe, so they will usually (correctly) play like we have one in our deck.
I've been passionately working on this deck for a few weeks now, and have had great results (though small sample size is hard to predict. Ive only played probably 20 irl tournament rounds total, though I am like 17-3). Lets keep up the tuning guys!
I've thought about it a few times. He would really only shine against mono-red, for the same reason metwo said: he just doesnt compete with any of the big creatures.
Also, our main problem is our glut of good 3 drops. There's tons of good choices, but being merely 'good' won't cut it. Thats why I play 0 finks, smiters, and geists.
2 birds of paradise
4 voice of resurgence
2 scavenging ooze
1 spellskite
1 quasali pridemage
2 courser of cruphix
2 eternal witness
4 knight of the reliquary
1 restoration angel
1 glen elandra archmage
3 chord of calling
3 retreat of coralhelm
4 serum visions
1 horizon canopy
1 ghost quarter
1 gavony township
3 forest
1 plains
1 island
1 hallowed fountain
2 temple garden
1 breeding pool
4 windwsept heath
2 wooded foothills
4 misty rainforest
1 spellskite
1 scavenging ooze
3 engineered explosives
3 stony silence
1 kataki
1 glen elandra archmage
1 restoration angel
1 chameleon collosus
1 chord of calling
1 negate
1 celestial purge/ghostly prison/slot
I haven't played with the serum visions yet, but they seem ok. They were: +1 pridemage, +1 chord, +2 wall of omens. I might end up going down to 2 or 3 serum visions, but idk what creatures to replace them with. I also am not sure if I'm going greedy by only running 22 lands and 6 dorks, so I could cut 2 visions for a land/dork, but I then again am not totally happy with having 30 mana sources in the deck. The Sb chamco is also an untested experiment I just saw a few mins ago earlier in the sub, and could be a worthy anti jund/grixis big dude, though it isn't as good against uw control, and that's the grindy matchup where we need the most help.
Sorry for the big post I am noob-how do I hide text?
Commune has actually been a useful card for me. It may not be the best card, but it does a job not a lot of other cards can do.
Here is a link on how to use tags: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/community-forums/community-discussion/576824-card-and-deck-tag-explanation#c1
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Adding: If you look at decks that have been successful playing dorks in modern, they have things in common:
1) They don't overload at the 3-drop spot (see Abzan coco combo)
2) They don't play a lot of 1-drops that aren't also win conditions (see elves with dorks being part of the wincon, Abzan coco with viscera seer)
3) They typically have many strong mana sinks
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I agree with most points, though collected company has been so consistently incredible and gaming winning for me with a zoo syle build I have trouble believing anyone deriding it has actually tested it. The groans that emit from jund/junk, control, and splinter twin players when you play that card after they spent a whole turn removing your threats only to spit 10 more power onto the board is incredible.
I'm starting to contemplate taking out Sejeri Steppe for the reasons you've listed above, I've only twice in probably 200+ games online and in paper used it to protect the combo, though I have once or twice in addition to that used it to get a geist through or something. Every other time I've drawn it it's been terrible to deal with.
I think that there's definitely a deck somewhere down the path everyone here is going down but it's probably a few cards shy of being as competitive as a zoo build.
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
So, if you have a kotr in play, have untapped with it (if they are smart the will kill it before you untap), and then you dont attack with it at any point, and dont use its ability to grow it/get value, then yeah, sejeri step is useful.
So, almost never.
However, it is very good value that we can 'threaten' steppe and make our opponents play awkwardly, but we don't have to register the card to actually do that.
You guys have lost your way if you don't use this often or think it needs to be cut. Whether helping chump primeval titan for an extra turn to get enough time to grow knight bigger than primetime, or just protecting the combo in the face of slaughter pact, Sejiri steppe is an integral part of the knight toolbox. Seriously.
Seriously.
edit: And for realz Collected Company "sucks in our deck"? Are we even playing the same game?
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Hooting mandrills seems like a really bad Nonbo with KoTR, what with exiling your graveyard, especially because most decks have very low spell density so you are almost forced to exile lands to get a fast Mandrills.
What about in the sideboard for Burn/Zoo? Although I think we alright have good MUs against them via finks
Truth. Sejiri Steppe has won me multiple games. It is like asking Twin would they cut dispel because protecting the combo isn't needed and people will always kill the exarch/pestermite/krasis on sight. The number of times I have saved my twin combo with a counter is small, but it happens and it lets me end the game. Sure it sucks when it is in our hand and I wish we had brainstorm to shuffle in back into the deck, but hey bad draws happen.
Also, if you are running 27ish 3cmc creatures, Collected Company is an amazing card. That being said, if you are running fewer creatures it isn't as good (see the primer). I stopped playing it because I dropped my creature count. As far as Commune goes, if I could run Green sun's zenith I would run that. But Commune does a lot of good things for us similar to Green Sun's. It doesn't fetch the exact creature you need, but you generally get a good selection, it essentially costs 1 more than green sun's and it can help find our combo. At the same time, I am running 8 creatures that run of healthy GY, so being able to fuel them is only a bonus.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall