ok so this is my latest, untested list. I got the idea from modern nexus's trevor holmes series on knightfall mixed with Mihkel Altmets's list, and decided to go all in on landfall:
The deck is pure landfall aggro. Witness is just for value but can also rebuy fetches for more landfall action. Undergrowth champion seems great both on offense and defense. Not sure if 2x birds should be 2 more fetchlands. Coursers might become geist of saint traft or more undergrowth champions depending on how well they all do in testing.
Amulet bloom should be a fairly easy matchup for us. I think that if you lump my Bant company and Bant Knightfall records together, I'm something like 5-0 in (paper) matches against Bloom titan.
Meddling mage should name Pimeval Titan. They are hard pressed to find an out against this. They are so narrow to draw Hive Mind that we should yield the small minority of games over to them that they both draw it and we have insufficient dorks out to pay for it. If they left Hive mind in games 2-3, they are still narrow to draw it and we should ignore that draw. Seriously: ignore hive mind. Most games you won't lose to it if they draw it, and its not worth fighting the remaining small % when they hive mind kill you turn 2.
Second, you will be able to grow your knight pretty big against their turn 4 titans by chumping a few times. I've won against multiple titans with knighting up a sejiri steppe to kill off one while pathing another. Knight seems to win the head-up fight since you can just give pro green.
Aven Mindcensor is my other tool against amulet titan (and rg tron) from the sb. Prevents all but the natural Titans.
Amulet titan is a highly favourable matchup for bant company versions of Knightfall in my experience.
Played an 8 man today and lost in round 2 to Amulet (again). Either I am really unlucky or I question how this is a great matchup for us. I lost 1-2. Game 1 I lost to Hive mind with Summoner and Pact. Game 2 I won by a turn 2 meddling mage on primetime and then combo in face of a hornet queen. Game Three I have to face down 3 titans. I manage to counter one with unified will, to have him draw another and tutor another with tolaria into summoner's into titan. I manage to path the second, but the third just swings away as a 8/6 haste, double strike. I blow up their amulets, and they dig for another one, I bolt/pyroclasm Azusa, and they seem to play 2 blooms back to back. No matter if I put a lot of pressure on them, or try to control their game plan, it doesn't seem to be enough without hand destruction or comboing off immediately.
I board in 2 unified wills, dromoka's, 2 aven mindcensors and 2 meddling mages. Taking out 2 Scooze, 3 geist, 1 bolt and 1 CoCo. I am not sure what else to do against them, except pray I get a turn 3 combo hand and hope they don't go off sooner.
Incidentally I won against Jund in the most stupid way possible round 1. Game 1, we trade blows and he gets a 4/5 goyf on the board and swings me down to 4, while I only have a Retreat in hand. I top deck a KotR which comes in at 5/5. He has no response, and fetches down to 13. I play the retreat and learn at 4 life, I can do exactly 13 damage lol. Game 2 I get scoozed into oblivion. Game 3 I am doing well, but then he gets ahead on board with double bob's, I get 1 down, but he just gets all the removal and basically bob's himself down to 5 and then plays huntmaster. At this point I think I am effed. I draw a bolt, and decide the only way I am winning is if he reveals something large with bob. He flips balroth, and I bolt for the match. I was dead on board and had no right to win, but I will take it.
Jund was another match I felt like I needed to rely on them missing parts of their game plan. I didn't feel in control or that I was applying a lot of pressure at all.
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Traditionally Jund's removal and mid game creatures tend to beat Zoo lists. It follows the old paradigm of aggro loses to midrange loses to control loses to aggro. Although this is overly simplified and ignores combo [*cough amulet *cough] it's still something I consider when deck building. Hence midrange would like to be aggressive enough or resilient enough to beat control, whilst still blocking aggro. Cards like Geist for speed and Smiter for resilience and blocking etc work here. They are also obviously great vs Jund. Vs Bloom you could side out durdley cards like Coursers if you run them, in favour of disruption and aggression. Don't have much experience with zoo, so can only talk from a more midrange game style.
Has anyone tested a bant faeries brew? With kotr to fetch mutavault and in there for coralhelm combo? Also maybe bring to light with a kiki jiki dryad arbor combo?
Has anyone tested a bant faeries brew? With kotr to fetch mutavault and in there for coralhelm combo? Also maybe bring to light with a kiki jiki dryad arbor combo?
Unfortunately, Kiki requires 5 colors for Bring to Light and triple red to cast naturally. This makes him very awkward in an otherwise Bant deck.
Played an 8 man today and lost in round 2 to Amulet (again). Either I am really unlucky or I question how this is a great matchup for us. I lost 1-2. Game 1 I lost to Hive mind with Summoner and Pact. Game 2 I won by a turn 2 meddling mage on primetime and then combo in face of a hornet queen. Game Three I have to face down 3 titans. I manage to counter one with unified will, to have him draw another and tutor another with tolaria into summoner's into titan. I manage to path the second, but the third just swings away as a 8/6 haste, double strike. I blow up their amulets, and they dig for another one, I bolt/pyroclasm Azusa, and they seem to play 2 blooms back to back. No matter if I put a lot of pressure on them, or try to control their game plan, it doesn't seem to be enough without hand destruction or comboing off immediately.
I board in 2 unified wills, dromoka's, 2 aven mindcensors and 2 meddling mages. Taking out 2 Scooze, 3 geist, 1 bolt and 1 CoCo. I am not sure what else to do against them, except pray I get a turn 3 combo hand and hope they don't go off sooner.
Incidentally I won against Jund in the most stupid way possible round 1. Game 1, we trade blows and he gets a 4/5 goyf on the board and swings me down to 4, while I only have a Retreat in hand. I top deck a KotR which comes in at 5/5. He has no response, and fetches down to 13. I play the retreat and learn at 4 life, I can do exactly 13 damage lol. Game 2 I get scoozed into oblivion. Game 3 I am doing well, but then he gets ahead on board with double bob's, I get 1 down, but he just gets all the removal and basically bob's himself down to 5 and then plays huntmaster. At this point I think I am effed. I draw a bolt, and decide the only way I am winning is if he reveals something large with bob. He flips balroth, and I bolt for the match. I was dead on board and had no right to win, but I will take it.
Jund was another match I felt like I needed to rely on them missing parts of their game plan. I didn't feel in control or that I was applying a lot of pressure at all.
Our different experiences might be attributed to our differing builds. The Blue Naya version with bolt seems weaker to me than the pure bant list (with red only for kessig) - in particular against combo decks. Perhaps Blue Naya gains some % with bolt against aggro decks, but we're already favoured there so I don't consider bolt to be worth the slots.
I used to have another ghost quarter in the board, but recently changed that to clique. Clique is valuable in similar matchups without making me board out a land (i never want to take out kessig).
Collected company helps you find your hatebears, so I would be loath to reduce the count below 4 even postboard against combo decks. If you're running Blue Naya, you're probably not on 8 dorks which may also explain why I don't find hive mind to be super threatening past turn 3.
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Bolt is fairly good for killing Mindcensor. Path does that but if they're heavy on hate (graveyard+search) you might want multiple ways of dealing with it.
I'm not running Bolt in my deck because I'm running more pure Green / White splashing only the tiniest amount of Blue for Coralhelm and the tiniest amount of Black for Lingering Souls. In the deck I'm using I don't use Wolfrun, I have a couple of Townships. Wolfrun is not necessary to any deck as you can search for a fetch with the Knight to tap a blocker and then crack it to untap the Knight. You should be able to get enough land into your graveyard to turn 3 kill regardless.
I piloted this list to a top 4 finish at the WA SCG States. I had Naya Zoo built previously, and after some inspiration from this thread, I built Knightfall the Tuesday prior to States. The deck performed great at both Tuesday and Friday Night Magic, so I decided it was what I'd be playing on Sunday. I didn't take notes, so no tournament report, but I was able to both pull off turn three kills and grind out long games with the best of them (I faced Jund three or four times in Swiss). Highlights of the tournament for me were:
Comboing off, using my extra mana to cast Collected Company into another Knight and Geist, leaving up a fetch for untap into Sejiri Steppe, which took my opponent's Abrupt Decay, but I wasn't expecting the Slaughter Pact. Oh well, I killed him next turn with the second Knight.
Stubborn Denialing a Chord for the Melira Combo twice in different matches (Swiss and Top 8) against the same Abzan Company opponent.
In the semi-finals, I mulled to six game two against Affinity. On the play, I kept a one land, no dork hand with Kataki, scryed a Stony Silence to the bottom, and ripped a second land off the top to kill a Signal Pest and two Ornithopters on his next turn. Won that game, lost the match, but I left with a smile.
So I run a more all-in combo version of the deck, can anyone explain to me how the combo kills without Kessig? Or is the combo not meant to insta-win in those versions?
Have any of you guys tested against soul sisters? I've been using a zoo variant and that match has been really hard even with sideboard torpor orbs (because I never draw them)
I played some really close games with soul sisters. Engineered Explosives is the MVP for me.
I don't think the aggro zoo version can beat soul sisters, even with the combo. Just not enough removal to deal with their card advantage and not enough speed to deal with their lifegain.
OK, so here is my list. It has been OK in my testing so far. I’m hoping to get some more rigorous testing in this weekend, but I’d like to see opinions about what could be improved. Notably, no one else seems to be trying to run chord of calling, and, at the very least, I like it. It can fetch one of the combo pieces reliably and at end of turn. Thanks in advance!
So, one issue I had with running the 1-mana counterspells was the amount they increased your desire to fetch blue early and leave it untapped in many matchups--which conflicts with our desire to run out our threats. I think a deck running maindeck counterspells probably ought to just skip mana dorks and play control and filtering spells - but I could totally be wrong there.
I've been thinking more about this deck and its combo. In all variants we basically fall into the combo, like playing twin without serum visions, or remand, or cryptics. It just doesn't work. As many of us have said on here, Goyf is kind of a weak card in these decks because he is well, generally a 3/4 vanilla beater at best for 2. This deck lacks sorceries. Finding a way to dig for the combo seemed important to me. I also noticed that he more hate I hate out of the board the better I generally did.
Anyway, this got my brain juices flowing and I came up with Commune with the Gods. I think this may be the perfect card for a bant version. It does 4 things for the deck. It puts lands in the yard for KotR, it finds your combo pieces and it fills the yard with a sorcery (among other things) for the goyf. It also allows for other tech like Detention Sphere to be dug for. When combine with Witness it gives you ways to use your yard to your advantage. As a final piece of tech, 1-2 Sun titans at the top end could really keep this deck functioning as the game goes long. I am working on a deck list and will post it if it pans out.
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Yep, I agree with that direction CP. I couldn't quite get the balance right, but Thougth Scour+Commune are really solid fuel for Knight, and work great with both Snapcasters and Flipjace if you decide to go that route.
Note: all the digging stuff goes really well with Courser of Kruphix as well.
Really nice thing about Commune: Great at digging for hate cards. Reallllly good.
A bit of play testing an I think with commune the deck needs 23 lands and more blue sources. I want sun titan to work, but it might be too cute. Still needs a bit of play testing.
Did play a match against Mono-U Time Warp and got stomped. Was really fun to see that deck in action, as a random aside.
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Vinelasher Kudzu: instead of Lynx/nacatl. I know it's 2cmc instead of 1 but the counters would be permanent.
tunneling geopede: if we are already going red seems like an easy way to get the extra damage
ajani, mentor of heroes: helps find the creature we need to make our creatures larger. Also suggesting some aura's below. Seems like this thread isn't a fan of walkers in general for this deck other than elspeth. Any reason why?
shield of the oversoul: this card seems great to me. I don't understand why it doesn't get more play. Can someone please explain? We run a lot of GW which would give them +2/2 w flying and indestructible. I als am a fan of wrath of God so this would give us the option to wipe the board and still have a creature.
If just making a fun/casual deck not worried about legality, I saw someone mention edric, spymaster of trest. Would it be a good addition, if so what would you cut? Figured it would hit w coco and helps us find the missing combo piece
Any thoughts on more midrange w gavony township, wilt leaf liege and the addition of retreat to kazandu? Could reset kitchen finks... Would run this w courser to make sure I get the land drops.
Please be gental, I am a new to all this. Thanks for any suggestions/input
If someone removes a creature out from under an aura while it is on the stack, you get 2-for-1'd. Auras are generally bad if the target isn't hexproof.
4 noble hierarch
4 steppe lynx
2 birds of paradise
2 qasali pridemage
2 scavenging ooze
4 vinelasher kudzu
4 knight of the reliquary
2 undergrowth champion
2 eternal witness
2 courser of kruphix
instants : 6
4 path to exile
2 dromoka's command
4 retreat to coralhelm
lands : 22
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
2 breeding pool
2 hallowed fountain
1 temple garden
3 forest
2 plains
1 sejiri steppe
2 ghost quarter
1 gavony township
2 stony silence
2 aven mindcensor
2 dryad militant
2 pithing needle
1 gaddock teeg
2 dispel
2 kitchen finks
1 torpor orb
1 grafdigger's cage
The deck is pure landfall aggro. Witness is just for value but can also rebuy fetches for more landfall action. Undergrowth champion seems great both on offense and defense. Not sure if 2x birds should be 2 more fetchlands. Coursers might become geist of saint traft or more undergrowth champions depending on how well they all do in testing.
Thoughts?
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Played an 8 man today and lost in round 2 to Amulet (again). Either I am really unlucky or I question how this is a great matchup for us. I lost 1-2. Game 1 I lost to Hive mind with Summoner and Pact. Game 2 I won by a turn 2 meddling mage on primetime and then combo in face of a hornet queen. Game Three I have to face down 3 titans. I manage to counter one with unified will, to have him draw another and tutor another with tolaria into summoner's into titan. I manage to path the second, but the third just swings away as a 8/6 haste, double strike. I blow up their amulets, and they dig for another one, I bolt/pyroclasm Azusa, and they seem to play 2 blooms back to back. No matter if I put a lot of pressure on them, or try to control their game plan, it doesn't seem to be enough without hand destruction or comboing off immediately.
I board in 2 unified wills, dromoka's, 2 aven mindcensors and 2 meddling mages. Taking out 2 Scooze, 3 geist, 1 bolt and 1 CoCo. I am not sure what else to do against them, except pray I get a turn 3 combo hand and hope they don't go off sooner.
Incidentally I won against Jund in the most stupid way possible round 1. Game 1, we trade blows and he gets a 4/5 goyf on the board and swings me down to 4, while I only have a Retreat in hand. I top deck a KotR which comes in at 5/5. He has no response, and fetches down to 13. I play the retreat and learn at 4 life, I can do exactly 13 damage lol. Game 2 I get scoozed into oblivion. Game 3 I am doing well, but then he gets ahead on board with double bob's, I get 1 down, but he just gets all the removal and basically bob's himself down to 5 and then plays huntmaster. At this point I think I am effed. I draw a bolt, and decide the only way I am winning is if he reveals something large with bob. He flips balroth, and I bolt for the match. I was dead on board and had no right to win, but I will take it.
Jund was another match I felt like I needed to rely on them missing parts of their game plan. I didn't feel in control or that I was applying a lot of pressure at all.
Unfortunately, Kiki requires 5 colors for Bring to Light and triple red to cast naturally. This makes him very awkward in an otherwise Bant deck.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
Our different experiences might be attributed to our differing builds. The Blue Naya version with bolt seems weaker to me than the pure bant list (with red only for kessig) - in particular against combo decks. Perhaps Blue Naya gains some % with bolt against aggro decks, but we're already favoured there so I don't consider bolt to be worth the slots.
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Voice of Resurgence
2x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging ooze
3x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Loxodon Smiter
1x Eternal Witness
Noncreature (12)
4x Collected Company
4x Path to Exile
4x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Flooded Strand
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
2x Plains
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Breeding Pool
2x Temple Garden
1x Stomping Ground
1x Kessig Wolf Run
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Sejiri Steppe
3x Aven Mindcensor
2x Burrenton Forge-tender
2x Spellskite
2x Kataki, War's Wage
2x Meddling Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
I used to have another ghost quarter in the board, but recently changed that to clique. Clique is valuable in similar matchups without making me board out a land (i never want to take out kessig).
Collected company helps you find your hatebears, so I would be loath to reduce the count below 4 even postboard against combo decks. If you're running Blue Naya, you're probably not on 8 dorks which may also explain why I don't find hive mind to be super threatening past turn 3.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I'm not running Bolt in my deck because I'm running more pure Green / White splashing only the tiniest amount of Blue for Coralhelm and the tiniest amount of Black for Lingering Souls. In the deck I'm using I don't use Wolfrun, I have a couple of Townships. Wolfrun is not necessary to any deck as you can search for a fetch with the Knight to tap a blocker and then crack it to untap the Knight. You should be able to get enough land into your graveyard to turn 3 kill regardless.
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
Gets less demanding as you've dealt any beats at all, and if you have exalted or your opponent has shocked themselves with lands, it's easier.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I don't think the aggro zoo version can beat soul sisters, even with the combo. Just not enough removal to deal with their card advantage and not enough speed to deal with their lifegain.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Voice of Resurgence
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
Spells
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Path to Exile
2 Stubborn Denial
2 Spell Pierce
2 Chord of Calling
1 Dromoka's command
4 Windswept Heath
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Temple Garden
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Gavony Township
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Forest
3 Plains
1 Island
3 Aven Mindcensor
2 Stony Silence
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Negate
2 Spellskite
2 Dromoka’s Command
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Anyway, this got my brain juices flowing and I came up with Commune with the Gods. I think this may be the perfect card for a bant version. It does 4 things for the deck. It puts lands in the yard for KotR, it finds your combo pieces and it fills the yard with a sorcery (among other things) for the goyf. It also allows for other tech like Detention Sphere to be dug for. When combine with Witness it gives you ways to use your yard to your advantage. As a final piece of tech, 1-2 Sun titans at the top end could really keep this deck functioning as the game goes long. I am working on a deck list and will post it if it pans out.
Note: all the digging stuff goes really well with Courser of Kruphix as well.
Really nice thing about Commune: Great at digging for hate cards. Reallllly good.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Did play a match against Mono-U Time Warp and got stomped. Was really fun to see that deck in action, as a random aside.
vines of vastwood: can protect your kotr and or on another creature if need the extra damage. Seems very similar to simic charm
grand abolisher: seems like a substitute to voice of resurgence
warden of the first tree: for an agro deck and can pump him up if we have extra mana
gaddock teeg : possible SB option?
Vinelasher Kudzu: instead of Lynx/nacatl. I know it's 2cmc instead of 1 but the counters would be permanent.
tunneling geopede: if we are already going red seems like an easy way to get the extra damage
ajani, mentor of heroes: helps find the creature we need to make our creatures larger. Also suggesting some aura's below. Seems like this thread isn't a fan of walkers in general for this deck other than elspeth. Any reason why?
shield of the oversoul: this card seems great to me. I don't understand why it doesn't get more play. Can someone please explain? We run a lot of GW which would give them +2/2 w flying and indestructible. I als am a fan of wrath of God so this would give us the option to wipe the board and still have a creature.
canopy cover: puts a creature over the top and helps from spot removal. Maybe aspect of mongoose instead?
If just making a fun/casual deck not worried about legality, I saw someone mention edric, spymaster of trest. Would it be a good addition, if so what would you cut? Figured it would hit w coco and helps us find the missing combo piece
Any thoughts on more midrange w gavony township, wilt leaf liege and the addition of retreat to kazandu? Could reset kitchen finks... Would run this w courser to make sure I get the land drops.
Please be gental, I am a new to all this. Thanks for any suggestions/input
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall