It should be Serum Visions but I have Sleight of hand already so I was going to use that as a stopgap until I get around to buying Serum Visions. Bad reason I know, but I do think SoH is almost as good in certain situations, just not in that deck.
I would consider trying thought scour over either, since they pump knight and synergize with snapcaster by being instant and filling the yard with targets.
Amulet bloom should be a fairly easy matchup for us. I think that if you lump my Bant company and Bant Knightfall records together, I'm something like 5-0 in (paper) matches against Bloom titan.
Meddling mage should name Pimeval Titan. They are hard pressed to find an out against this. They are so narrow to draw Hive Mind that we should yield the small minority of games over to them that they both draw it and we have insufficient dorks out to pay for it. If they left Hive mind in games 2-3, they are still narrow to draw it and we should ignore that draw. Seriously: ignore hive mind. Most games you won't lose to it if they draw it, and its not worth fighting the remaining small % when they hive mind kill you turn 2.
Second, you will be able to grow your knight pretty big against their turn 4 titans by chumping a few times. I've won against multiple titans with knighting up a sejiri steppe to kill off one while pathing another. Knight seems to win the head-up fight since you can just give pro green.
Aven Mindcensor is my other tool against amulet titan (and rg tron) from the sb. Prevents all but the natural Titans.
Amulet titan is a highly favourable matchup for bant company versions of Knightfall in my experience.
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Modern Decks
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Ive only run across Amulet Bloom once with Kightfall and although it was a victory it definitely didn't feel favoured to me. I turn 3'd him one game, he turn 2'd me the next and then game three was very long and grindy. And while i do like Dromoka's and think it should be included regardless. a good titan player won't play the Hive mind until they also have the pact in hand in which case removal of the enchantment doesn't stop the pact triggers from happening (as far as i know)
I'm interested in the zoo version of this deck because it seems like it has the best game plan to me and i'd prefer a more aggro / less all-in combo approach. However, I don't have any goyfs and don't intend to pay for them.
Any thoughs zoo players? Is this version viable at all without them? I'm having a hard time thinking of a decent replacement 2cmc beatstick... voice seems like the next best in colours but he definitely wants to play a longer game so I'm not sure it'd work.
Should I maybe go for an abzan liege build instead (being at the more aggressive end of the midrange spectrum)?
I'm interested in the zoo version of this deck because it seems like it has the best game plan to me and i'd prefer a more aggro / less all-in combo approach. However, I don't have any goyfs and don't intend to pay for them.
Any thoughs zoo players? Is this version viable at all without them? I'm having a hard time thinking of a decent replacement 2cmc beatstick... voice seems like the next best in colours but he definitely wants to play a longer game so I'm not sure it'd work.
Should I maybe go for an abzan liege build instead (being at the more aggressive end of the midrange spectrum)?
Goyf is the most variable card in this deck IMO. Against decks like BGx he is a monster beat stick who rapidly gets to 4/5. Against a lot of decks though, he has trouble getting bigger than 3/4. There are 2.5 reasons to play red in this deck: Lightning Bolt and Nacatl (0.5 is kessig). I think you can make a bant version that splashes for lightning bolts pretty easily. At the same time I think it is completely possible to take out 4 goyfs and replace them with 2 birds and 2 Woodland Wanderers. This will take the focus off of CoCo a bit, but with a 4c decks and mana dorks, a turn 3 6/6 vigilance trample is a thing. It also dodges hand IoK and gets around Eidolon. Won't be as fast, but 100% demands hard removal as it tramples over rhinos, fish, tasigur, 90% of goyfs, and trades with PrimeTime. Something to consider.
I've been messing around with this deck lately. Specifically (since there seem to be a lot of ways to approach this thing), I've been trying chord of calling variants--with middling success. I don't have a lot of time to test, nor do I have a full gauntlet, so I'm not going to push my list. However, I did stumble upon something of a bad idea that has worked a little better than I anticipated, so I wanted to share it and get opinions.
In my list, I've been running 6 mana dorks (heirarchs and birds) and those, combined with the mana potential from retreat to coralhelm, often make me feel like I should have some way of capitalizing on having a lot of mana available. That having been said, options like that tend to get stuck in your hand and reduce your efficiency. Enter Chameleon Colossus--sure he's not as efficient as he used to be, but, he has proven to be very hard to remove for some decks (specifically my jund list). Moreover, retreat lets you tap down blockers, and, combined with exalted, this can lead to big life swings. Although it is a bit win more if you have the combo out, he also presents a second instant-kill threat with Knight (relevant only if you don't make knight unblockable somehow). I have this sneaking suspicion the green giant is a bad idea for some reason, but he's been over-performing as a two-of, so I wanted to share it.
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Sig by Dark Night Cavalier at Heroes of the Plane Studios!
I've built the deck yesterday and went 4-0 with it at my LGS, beating u/r twin, grixis twin, grishoalbrand and amulet bloom. I'm very impressed with the deck so far.
My version has only a very light blue splash, aside from the sideboard my only card requiring blue mana is retreat.
A few things to note:
playing 2x ghost quarter is optimal in my opinion. They do not interfere with the combo at all, when you go off they are functional fetchlands that cost not life point if you ghost quarter your own lands. They can even put extra lands on the field in your graveyard for combo purpose.
I really like probe, they tell you when you can go off safely and they make the deck more consistent. I'd gladly play serum visions as well but there is no room. I'm also considering vendilion clique for the same reason and also she is great with exalted, but i'd have to adapt my mana base for double blue.
4 pridemage have been good, combined with noble hierarch they make attacking through blockers easy. Also my version want to max out on g/w creatures for liege.
Kitchen finks are nice, but i'm considering changing them for courser of kruphix. Not as good with liege and township, but low life totals can interfere with comboing. It isn't that bad because winning with 2 knight strike can be done, but i feel the potential value of courser could be worth it.
EDIT:
Bant charm in the sideboard is bad, they are placeholder because i don't know what else to put in my board since it was the first time i played the deck
@Ace_1: Nice, I like the Probe tech. On Finks vs Courser: Finks gets double-pumped from the Liege though. In this more «Little Kid» build of yours, I think I like Finks more. Another card to consider could be Dromoka's Command. All modes super relevant, especially when heavy on finks. 4x Pridemage seems a lot though. I'd be tempted to go over the top in wide mode and cut me some for a couple of Hangarback Walker. They grind superwell, synergize with both Gavony and Retreat, and Dromoka's command, and Voice of Resurgence tokens. Just sayin'.
Anyone thought of using steppe lynx in fetch heavy lists? Or is that a little too cute?
Trevor Holmes does it on Modernnexus.com and he says it works well. He has a deck tech article along a couple of videos of him playing this version. Check it out.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Thanks for the tips! Dromoka's command x2 will surely go to the sideboard, until i test more and can maybe fit it in the main deck. Walker is pretty cool, a shame the tokens don't get pumped by liege... but definitely worth consideration. I've also thought about mangara of corondor in a fetch heavy version, but he is probably too fragile.
I'm interested in the zoo version of this deck because it seems like it has the best game plan to me and i'd prefer a more aggro / less all-in combo approach. However, I don't have any goyfs and don't intend to pay for them.
Any thoughs zoo players? Is this version viable at all without them? I'm having a hard time thinking of a decent replacement 2cmc beatstick... voice seems like the next best in colours but he definitely wants to play a longer game so I'm not sure it'd work.
Should I maybe go for an abzan liege build instead (being at the more aggressive end of the midrange spectrum)?
Goyf is the most variable card in this deck IMO. Against decks like BGx he is a monster beat stick who rapidly gets to 4/5. Against a lot of decks though, he has trouble getting bigger than 3/4. There are 2.5 reasons to play red in this deck: Lightning Bolt and Nacatl (0.5 is kessig). I think you can make a bant version that splashes for lightning bolts pretty easily. At the same time I think it is completely possible to take out 4 goyfs and replace them with 2 birds and 2 Woodland Wanderers. This will take the focus off of CoCo a bit, but with a 4c decks and mana dorks, a turn 3 6/6 vigilance trample is a thing. It also dodges hand IoK and gets around Eidolon. Won't be as fast, but 100% demands hard removal as it tramples over rhinos, fish, tasigur, 90% of goyfs, and trades with PrimeTime. Something to consider.
Yeah I'm definitely sold on nacatl and bolt. I see what you mean about the varability of goyf, it's just a shame that he's the best 2 drop to round out the aggro versions and the next best (reliable) thing in terms of efficiency is a 3/3 for 2... meh.
I think I will include 2 birds and try to get the 3 drops out fast due to a lack of quality 2cmc beaters yeah. I don't love the plan because they're bad off the top but it could be worse; at least it makes the t2 geist more real which is nice
Woodland Wanderer is interesting tech, I hadn't thought of that :). Seems strong in a 4c deck like this, I'll have to try that out in a more midrange version if I build one. If I do I will probably have to cut CC as the build im looking at only has 25-6 targets and I don't want to go lower. Would be interesting to see how he stacks up against leige in such a build; I guess he's better on an empty board but worse for getting the final points of damage through
So i've played the deck some more and i think i would like to stay away from the little kid variant and don't want to play red. So i'm thinking about a value version with restoration angel, eternal witness and a few more value creature. Anyone tried something like that, is it any good?
Also i'd love to play vendilion clique. The card seems amazing at clearing the coast for the combo and catching problem cards, and they would beat real well with exalted triggers. The problem is double blue cost, it seems like a real stretch for this deck's mana base so it probably is an impossible love...
Maybe: Try and go blue-er with at least seven Dorks. Also, if you go bluer, you get to cut some of the early strict GW cards, like Pridemage. Throw in some 3 Geists for improved beatdown, and a single or couple Cliques (a working out manabase's got to be doable... people talk 4-colors, so c'mon.). Along the Gitaxian Probes you're running (I'd drop to 3x), you're going to have great info for when you try to combo out. Also, more dorks = more turn 2, three mana plays. Geist works with that.
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MODERN Blue Lantern, UBx Tezzerator. OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
He is actually good at getting the last few points of damage in as he has trample
Sorry that was a bit vague, I meant that leige pumps your existing attackers so you can get the final damage through faster, on the same turn you cast him, kind of like township. But is obviously much worse on an empty board. The trample & vig on wanderer is sweet though yeah, seems potent
I know ruin ghost was talked about earlier on as a way to either go for a combo kill with Hedron Crab or to just scry for exactly the right spell (both when comboed with retreat) but I haven't seen it discussed lately. Have we basically moved past it?
I think the key to modern as a format is that unless the cards that comprise a combo are incredibly resilient to disruption they need to stand on their own as good cards. Coralhelm just barely makes the cut as it taps down blockers to get in for damage. Adding anything past that like ruin ghost and hedron crab is asking for trouble I think.
So i've played the deck some more and i think i would like to stay away from the little kid variant and don't want to play red. So i'm thinking about a value version with restoration angel, eternal witness and a few more value creature. Anyone tried something like that, is it any good?
Also i'd love to play vendilion clique. The card seems amazing at clearing the coast for the combo and catching problem cards, and they would beat real well with exalted triggers. The problem is double blue cost, it seems like a real stretch for this deck's mana base so it probably is an impossible love...
I have tested a Flicker based version of the deck on cockatrice, the decklist is here. I have moved away from it though because it just performed worse in testing than the tempo version that I listed above. It just felt slow and clunky a fair amount of the time, though the sea of 3/3 golems was nice when the deck got going. Obviously there are better version of a flicker variant but I dont see it as the best direction to take the deck.
Technically, I didn't drop a match last night, but 1/0/2 is nothing to write home about. Beat amulet, went to time against Bant ghostway and Junk token/evolutionary leap. I think I overcompensated with durdly value cards after my Jund losses last time.
Technically, I didn't drop a match last night, but 1/0/2 is nothing to write home about. Beat amulet, went to time against Bant ghostway and Junk token/evolutionary leap. I think I overcompensated with durdly value cards after my Jund losses last time.
I would consider trying thought scour over either, since they pump knight and synergize with snapcaster by being instant and filling the yard with targets.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Meddling mage should name Pimeval Titan. They are hard pressed to find an out against this. They are so narrow to draw Hive Mind that we should yield the small minority of games over to them that they both draw it and we have insufficient dorks out to pay for it. If they left Hive mind in games 2-3, they are still narrow to draw it and we should ignore that draw. Seriously: ignore hive mind. Most games you won't lose to it if they draw it, and its not worth fighting the remaining small % when they hive mind kill you turn 2.
Second, you will be able to grow your knight pretty big against their turn 4 titans by chumping a few times. I've won against multiple titans with knighting up a sejiri steppe to kill off one while pathing another. Knight seems to win the head-up fight since you can just give pro green.
Aven Mindcensor is my other tool against amulet titan (and rg tron) from the sb. Prevents all but the natural Titans.
Amulet titan is a highly favourable matchup for bant company versions of Knightfall in my experience.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
Any thoughs zoo players? Is this version viable at all without them? I'm having a hard time thinking of a decent replacement 2cmc beatstick... voice seems like the next best in colours but he definitely wants to play a longer game so I'm not sure it'd work.
Should I maybe go for an abzan liege build instead (being at the more aggressive end of the midrange spectrum)?
Goyf is the most variable card in this deck IMO. Against decks like BGx he is a monster beat stick who rapidly gets to 4/5. Against a lot of decks though, he has trouble getting bigger than 3/4. There are 2.5 reasons to play red in this deck: Lightning Bolt and Nacatl (0.5 is kessig). I think you can make a bant version that splashes for lightning bolts pretty easily. At the same time I think it is completely possible to take out 4 goyfs and replace them with 2 birds and 2 Woodland Wanderers. This will take the focus off of CoCo a bit, but with a 4c decks and mana dorks, a turn 3 6/6 vigilance trample is a thing. It also dodges hand IoK and gets around Eidolon. Won't be as fast, but 100% demands hard removal as it tramples over rhinos, fish, tasigur, 90% of goyfs, and trades with PrimeTime. Something to consider.
In my list, I've been running 6 mana dorks (heirarchs and birds) and those, combined with the mana potential from retreat to coralhelm, often make me feel like I should have some way of capitalizing on having a lot of mana available. That having been said, options like that tend to get stuck in your hand and reduce your efficiency. Enter Chameleon Colossus--sure he's not as efficient as he used to be, but, he has proven to be very hard to remove for some decks (specifically my jund list). Moreover, retreat lets you tap down blockers, and, combined with exalted, this can lead to big life swings. Although it is a bit win more if you have the combo out, he also presents a second instant-kill threat with Knight (relevant only if you don't make knight unblockable somehow). I have this sneaking suspicion the green giant is a bad idea for some reason, but he's been over-performing as a two-of, so I wanted to share it.
My list:
4 noble hierarch
2 birds of paradise
4 qasali pridemage
2 scavenging ooze
2 voice of resurgence
4 knight of the reliquary
4 kitchen finks
4 wilt-leaf liege
instants : 4
4 path to exile
sorceries : 4
4 gitaxian probe
4 retreat to coralhelm
lands : 22
4 windswept heath
4 flooded strand
2 breeding pool
2 hallowed fountain
1 temple garden
3 forest
2 plains
1 sejiri steppe
2 ghost quarter
1 gavony township
2 stony silence
2 aven mindcensor
2 dryad militant
2 pithing needle
1 gaddock teeg
2 dispel
4 bant charm
My version has only a very light blue splash, aside from the sideboard my only card requiring blue mana is retreat.
A few things to note:
playing 2x ghost quarter is optimal in my opinion. They do not interfere with the combo at all, when you go off they are functional fetchlands that cost not life point if you ghost quarter your own lands. They can even put extra lands on the field in your graveyard for combo purpose.
I really like probe, they tell you when you can go off safely and they make the deck more consistent. I'd gladly play serum visions as well but there is no room. I'm also considering vendilion clique for the same reason and also she is great with exalted, but i'd have to adapt my mana base for double blue.
4 pridemage have been good, combined with noble hierarch they make attacking through blockers easy. Also my version want to max out on g/w creatures for liege.
Kitchen finks are nice, but i'm considering changing them for courser of kruphix. Not as good with liege and township, but low life totals can interfere with comboing. It isn't that bad because winning with 2 knight strike can be done, but i feel the potential value of courser could be worth it.
EDIT:
Bant charm in the sideboard is bad, they are placeholder because i don't know what else to put in my board since it was the first time i played the deck
Trevor Holmes does it on Modernnexus.com and he says it works well. He has a deck tech article along a couple of videos of him playing this version. Check it out.
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Yeah I'm definitely sold on nacatl and bolt. I see what you mean about the varability of goyf, it's just a shame that he's the best 2 drop to round out the aggro versions and the next best (reliable) thing in terms of efficiency is a 3/3 for 2... meh.
I think I will include 2 birds and try to get the 3 drops out fast due to a lack of quality 2cmc beaters yeah. I don't love the plan because they're bad off the top but it could be worse; at least it makes the t2 geist more real which is nice
Woodland Wanderer is interesting tech, I hadn't thought of that :). Seems strong in a 4c deck like this, I'll have to try that out in a more midrange version if I build one. If I do I will probably have to cut CC as the build im looking at only has 25-6 targets and I don't want to go lower. Would be interesting to see how he stacks up against leige in such a build; I guess he's better on an empty board but worse for getting the final points of damage through
Also i'd love to play vendilion clique. The card seems amazing at clearing the coast for the combo and catching problem cards, and they would beat real well with exalted triggers. The problem is double blue cost, it seems like a real stretch for this deck's mana base so it probably is an impossible love...
OLD SCHOOL 93/94 «The Pain Train» Black Sligh, Esper «Machine Gun» Artifacts, Jund «Psycho» Ponza-Disko.
Sorry that was a bit vague, I meant that leige pumps your existing attackers so you can get the final damage through faster, on the same turn you cast him, kind of like township. But is obviously much worse on an empty board. The trample & vig on wanderer is sweet though yeah, seems potent
BG Rock
Modern:
RW Sun & Moon
RBG Dredge
RWG Burn
Legacy:
W Death & Taxes
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
I have tested a Flicker based version of the deck on cockatrice, the decklist is here. I have moved away from it though because it just performed worse in testing than the tempo version that I listed above. It just felt slow and clunky a fair amount of the time, though the sea of 3/3 golems was nice when the deck got going. Obviously there are better version of a flicker variant but I dont see it as the best direction to take the deck.
However, on my way home I got thinking about trying to make Steppe Lynx consistent, Scryb Ranger was a staple in old maverick builds. Untaps knights, allows lynx re-triggers. Going further, a faeries package in the deck of Spellstutter Sprite, Vendilion Clique, Scryb Ranger, Glen Elendra Archmage and maybe even a Mutavault to fetch with knight.
You'd certainly have the element of surprise. Spellstutter Sprite is actually pretty great in Modern, where 3/4 of the cards cost 3 or less mana.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo