The creature suite is very similar, minus a Tasigur, which is the Fabiano creature suite. A lot of people try to convince me to run Kalitas, and I have in the past, but he's just been incredibly underwhelming to me lately. Same number and split of Lilianas, but mainboard Damnations and Cryptics, and 4 Serum Visions. Outside of Cryptic, I don't run any other counters main at the moment. I'm basically setup to grind my mostly fair meta, and sideboard for whatever I happen to see at the shop that night. I'm probably running it tonight, because the Edel version I'm running still needs some tuning.
The creature suite is very similar, minus a Tasigur, which is the Fabiano creature suite. A lot of people try to convince me to run Kalitas, and I have in the past, but he's just been incredibly underwhelming to me lately. Same number and split of Lilianas, but mainboard Damnations and Cryptics, and 4 Serum Visions. Outside of Cryptic, I don't run any other counters main at the moment. I'm basically setup to grind my mostly fair meta, and sideboard for whatever I happen to see at the shop that night. I'm probably running it tonight, because the Edel version I'm running still needs some tuning.
Yeah your list seems to be about what I would expect it to be. I completely agree about Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. He is powerful, but in the modern there is so much good creature removal that having a 4 cmc creature that has no ETB effect can be such a tempo loss if all it does is eat a removal spell. He is cool and I want him to be good just like everyone else, but I feel like he just doesn't quite cut it. The meta has to be super slow, grindy, and also full of creatures for him to showcase his true power, and I don't think we're at that point right now.
Won my local fnm tonight with the list I posted previously. 4 rounds, around 20 people. Matches were as follows
Living end 2-1
Bant tokens brew 2-1
Tron 2-1
Bant knightfall 2-0
Walked out with some ugins with my store credit. List is the same as the one I've posted before, however I cut one spell snare from the main to try out collected brutality. Lost game one each round until the finals, which was (not surprisingly) the easiest match of the night. A fair creature deck is everything we want to play against. Any thoughts or questions get at me.
I think Countersquall is definitely better, I just feel the color requirements are tougher in the midrange version and so sometimes the Negate is better than the Squall. It's a hedge. Even in my controlling versions I tend to run two of each. I could run 4 Countersquall, but in the later parts of the game I might need to cast two in the same turn to resolve a threat and Negate just increases the odds that colors aren't a problem.
is their a stock number on the number of spell snares the lists should run ?
If you're running a list with Spell Snares, I'm assuming you're running a fairly controlling list at which point you're in the 2-3 range. Probably 2 in the main and maybe one in the side. There are a LOT of really good 2 cmc targets right now.
is their a stock number on the number of spell snares the lists should run ?
If you're running a list with Spell Snares, I'm assuming you're running a fairly controlling list at which point you're in the 2-3 range. Probably 2 in the main and maybe one in the side. There are a LOT of really good 2 cmc targets right now.
I agree that Spell Snare is strong at the moment. I was on grixis delver just a few weeks ago and I was running 3 mainboard and it felt pretty good.
Well I have good news. The popularity of the new Death's Shadow deck is great for us. I haven't lost to it yet although I've only played it 6 or 7 times. Even on paper the matchup looks good though. My list runs the full playset of Fatal Push, which I suggest everyone does since it's our best option for 1 cmc removal, and 3 Abrupt Decay in the maindeck. Plus delving with Tasigur, The Golden Fang not only produces a hard to deal with threat, but can also shrink their Tarmogoyf's. Now their deck is still very powerful and most of the matches against it have been close, but I still think we are favorited in the matchup and I hope it continues to climb in popularity. Let me know what you guys and gals think about this matchup as well!
That's great that the deck is getting some light shed on it. I'm skeptical about some of his card choices, but I favor the more controlling builds as I think they're more powerful and he even mentioned that he doesn't think his list is optimal. It just shows that there's a lot of play to the deck and that it's very customizable to whatever playstyle you prefer.
That's great that the deck is getting some light shed on it. I'm skeptical about some of his card choices, but I favor the more controlling builds as I think they're more powerful and he even mentioned that he doesn't think his list is optimal. It just shows that there's a lot of play to the deck and that it's very customizable to whatever playstyle you prefer.
So after testing Willy Edel's list a bit (which has been very good in testing), I'm at the stage where I'm going to tweak and test some different cards in the list. I was going to do a 2-1 split of lili of the veil and last hope, and was thinking of maybe adding something like mishra's bauble for better delirium or maybe spreading seas (relevant if it gets scoured). As was discussed earlier, I've also considered spell snare in the main or maybe even dispel. What I'm struggling with though, is finding out what to take out!! Thoughts on these ideas guys?
My original list had 4 discard spells (2 Iok and 2 thoughtseize). For Me personally they were underwhelming in the sense that I was incentivized to keep them in against certain match ups where they still had limited impact. Like the jeskai match or the Grixis match ups. Turn one discard seemed really good to me, but then when later turns came around they were almost always horrible top decks, draws, etc . I cut them for 4 spreading seas which gave me main deck interaction with tron and an awesome answer to colonnade; that allowed me better boarding options in that match as i get to take out a large portion of removal as they don't have good targets besides collonade, and surprisingly has utility in a lot of match ups in the format.
My point being I felt like their utility was limited, and that the discard spells were better suited for me as other cards. Obviously I could be wrong, and I'm by no means am I saying play seas. But I think you could find cards that fit your play/decks style and you'd get more value out of them in the discard slot. Even the grixis control decks don't run discard spells, and while jund does they often get sideboarded out for real cards. I'm not sure discard is at a good spot in modern honestly (unless you're playing 8 rack)
I have to say that my experience has been the opposite. Discard has been great for me, but that's not to say that I haven't topped one before and been like damn... anything but this.. That's just how discard is. So in your list you have 3 stubborns, removal (push?) and spreading seas. It just feels like there is a lack of interaction, although I could be wrong. In my experience I have dismantled combos, cleared the way for my threats, and lessened burn damage with discard.
I believe it's wrong and somewhat irrelevant to mention grixis not running discard (even though some versions do) as they are an instant speed control deck, and discard arguably has no place there. Jund sides it out when it's not relevant (rarely the case) or when in a grindy matchup as you want to 1 for 1 at every stage of the game in those situations and topping a dead card is bad. Now just because they side it out, doesn't mean discard is bad, it just means you understand when it's needed and when it's not. You mention better cards like spreading seas, which I admit is tempting (although replacing discard seems wrong), but what else do you classify as a better card in those slots?
These are just my thoughts and experiences, I could 100% be wrong.
If I may weigh in on the discard discussion, I really must agree with Nickums. There are so many decks (and opening hands within those decks)that turn 1 IoK just brutalizes, and Sultai has the unique ability to turn 3 snap IoK. The argument of instant versus sorcery speed, for me anyway, is moot. Ive taken it as a challenge to run a deck that can switch gears and do both, but that's just my personal build. I will suggest that if you eschew all discard, you need to max out on removal and permission, as its your only shield to get into the mid to late game.
Definitely agree about what needs to happen if no discard is played, but I believe that would also warrant a a pretty big change of the rest of the deck to properly accommodate the rest of the permission suite. Also, never meant to make it sound like playing both instant and sorcery interaction in grixis is wrong, I am currently also playing both hence the "arguably". I was just trying to explain why the most popular variation of the deck has opted not to and establish that it wasn't a good comparison or reason for why we shouldn't too.
As an aside, I did some fairly small testing with Mishra's Bauble in the deck as a 2 of, cutting down on 1 thoughtsieze and 1 misty (Tough and scary call to cut that). From these initial tests, Mishra's has been great! I'm tempted to jam 1 more in somehow, maybe in place of a collective. It has helped Goyf, Delirium and Tasigur out immensely to create very quick pressure on board.
I know I'm super late on the discard discussion but I think discard is fine (I always play decks with them interestingly enough). The reason I like them in sultai is having grim flayer and or serum visions to filter your draws. Decks like this need them early and well obviously not late. Unlike jund, we have some tools to remove them. If you were to play bauble too, you can check the top of your library and fetch shuffle. To this point, the jund death shadow list plays 8 discard. 8!
too bad there's no seamless way of being able to play both easily (counter + discard). There's just always going to be awkward times. I feel the slower your deck is the better counters are as you most likely don't have the pressure to get there before it's too late. With a consistent good clock, discard is better. It's possible i have this backwards, i dunno. I have always been partial to having discard g1 and counters in SB once I know exactly what I have to play against and any random card choices.
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Current Decks:
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange BWG Abzan value evolution BUG BUG Midrange
Discard is definitely where we want to be in the Sultai colors. There is most definitely a tension between counter spells and discard spells. This is why we should eschew counters from our deck. Counter spells in modern are just not very strong. They are either too expensive or too conditional. Bringing some in from the sideboard is different, as you know what to be expecting and your counters can line up better against the opponent's spells. I fully believe that playing maindeck counters is not how we make this deck tier 1.
There is already an outline of how GBx decks can be successful in modern. Abzan and Jund are perfect examples. So what we need to do is copy and paste what makes them successful and put that into our deck. This means putting discard, efficient threats, and cheap yet broad answers. So now that we have our Inquisition of Kozilek's, Tarmogoyf's, and Abrupt Decay's how can we do something in blue that gives us an advantage over red or white?
The majority of lists that I see feature Snapcaster Mage. While there is no doubt about the power level of snapcaster, I don't think our deck takes advantage of his full power. I believe that without playing Lightning Bolt we take away a lot of what snapcaster does best....flashback lightning bolt So why do we play blue then if we don't feature snapcaster? It's because of this other blue 2-drop creature.
I swear I'm not saying this because I bought into him at $100 a pop and hate seeing his stock fall week after week. He truly is a powerful card. He can still be found in Vintage and Legacy decklists magic.wizards.com www.mtggoldfish.com
So why is he not utilized in Modern more? Well, I'm not sure...it could be that there is more of an abundance of creature removal in modern, but "dies to removal" is a kind of argument that I don't like. Yeah he dies to removal, but if Jace even lives for one turn he is most likely going to flip and once he does he produces a huge advantage in your favor. He is hard to deal with and it is quite common that he flashes back two spells putting you far ahead on card advantage. He also has other subtle synergies with our deck. He loots to help fill our graveyard and when he leaves the battlefield to transform, he turns on our Fatal Push's.
Now once you commit to the Jace plan you go down a more controlling path. Your deck becomes grindier and your late game becomes stronger. Flashing back serum visions in the midgame is now a extremely powerful option and you don't feel like you're wasting a snapcaster to do so. Instead you're still left with a planeswalker that threatening to flashback another spell in two turns. Now for the people who want to play Delver of Secrets or a more tempo oriented deck, then it would probably be better to stick with counter spells and snapcasters, but after playing both types of decks I can undoubtedly say that the Control version is the stronger of the two and if one were to become a tier 1 deck, I would definitely place my bets on the control version.
I hope my write up brings up some questions and if it does be sure to ask! Again, I don't know whats 100% right or wrong, but instead just want to see Sultai keep climbing towards the top.
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Yeah your list seems to be about what I would expect it to be. I completely agree about Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet. He is powerful, but in the modern there is so much good creature removal that having a 4 cmc creature that has no ETB effect can be such a tempo loss if all it does is eat a removal spell. He is cool and I want him to be good just like everyone else, but I feel like he just doesn't quite cut it. The meta has to be super slow, grindy, and also full of creatures for him to showcase his true power, and I don't think we're at that point right now.
Living end 2-1
Bant tokens brew 2-1
Tron 2-1
Bant knightfall 2-0
Walked out with some ugins with my store credit. List is the same as the one I've posted before, however I cut one spell snare from the main to try out collected brutality. Lost game one each round until the finals, which was (not surprisingly) the easiest match of the night. A fair creature deck is everything we want to play against. Any thoughts or questions get at me.
If you're running a list with Spell Snares, I'm assuming you're running a fairly controlling list at which point you're in the 2-3 range. Probably 2 in the main and maybe one in the side. There are a LOT of really good 2 cmc targets right now.
I agree that Spell Snare is strong at the moment. I was on grixis delver just a few weeks ago and I was running 3 mainboard and it felt pretty good.
My point being I felt like their utility was limited, and that the discard spells were better suited for me as other cards. Obviously I could be wrong, and I'm by no means am I saying play seas. But I think you could find cards that fit your play/decks style and you'd get more value out of them in the discard slot. Even the grixis control decks don't run discard spells, and while jund does they often get sideboarded out for real cards. I'm not sure discard is at a good spot in modern honestly (unless you're playing 8 rack)
I believe it's wrong and somewhat irrelevant to mention grixis not running discard (even though some versions do) as they are an instant speed control deck, and discard arguably has no place there. Jund sides it out when it's not relevant (rarely the case) or when in a grindy matchup as you want to 1 for 1 at every stage of the game in those situations and topping a dead card is bad. Now just because they side it out, doesn't mean discard is bad, it just means you understand when it's needed and when it's not. You mention better cards like spreading seas, which I admit is tempting (although replacing discard seems wrong), but what else do you classify as a better card in those slots?
These are just my thoughts and experiences, I could 100% be wrong.
As an aside, I did some fairly small testing with Mishra's Bauble in the deck as a 2 of, cutting down on 1 thoughtsieze and 1 misty (Tough and scary call to cut that). From these initial tests, Mishra's has been great! I'm tempted to jam 1 more in somehow, maybe in place of a collective. It has helped Goyf, Delirium and Tasigur out immensely to create very quick pressure on board.
too bad there's no seamless way of being able to play both easily (counter + discard). There's just always going to be awkward times. I feel the slower your deck is the better counters are as you most likely don't have the pressure to get there before it's too late. With a consistent good clock, discard is better. It's possible i have this backwards, i dunno. I have always been partial to having discard g1 and counters in SB once I know exactly what I have to play against and any random card choices.
Modern: BG eldrazi midrange
BWG Abzan value evolution
BUG BUG Midrange
Tiny Leaders: BW Athreos Zombies
Commander: BG Gitrog Monster
There is already an outline of how GBx decks can be successful in modern. Abzan and Jund are perfect examples. So what we need to do is copy and paste what makes them successful and put that into our deck. This means putting discard, efficient threats, and cheap yet broad answers. So now that we have our Inquisition of Kozilek's, Tarmogoyf's, and Abrupt Decay's how can we do something in blue that gives us an advantage over red or white?
The majority of lists that I see feature Snapcaster Mage. While there is no doubt about the power level of snapcaster, I don't think our deck takes advantage of his full power. I believe that without playing Lightning Bolt we take away a lot of what snapcaster does best....flashback lightning bolt So why do we play blue then if we don't feature snapcaster? It's because of this other blue 2-drop creature.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
I swear I'm not saying this because I bought into him at $100 a pop and hate seeing his stock fall week after week. He truly is a powerful card. He can still be found in Vintage and Legacy decklists
magic.wizards.com
www.mtggoldfish.com
So why is he not utilized in Modern more? Well, I'm not sure...it could be that there is more of an abundance of creature removal in modern, but "dies to removal" is a kind of argument that I don't like. Yeah he dies to removal, but if Jace even lives for one turn he is most likely going to flip and once he does he produces a huge advantage in your favor. He is hard to deal with and it is quite common that he flashes back two spells putting you far ahead on card advantage. He also has other subtle synergies with our deck. He loots to help fill our graveyard and when he leaves the battlefield to transform, he turns on our Fatal Push's.
Now once you commit to the Jace plan you go down a more controlling path. Your deck becomes grindier and your late game becomes stronger. Flashing back serum visions in the midgame is now a extremely powerful option and you don't feel like you're wasting a snapcaster to do so. Instead you're still left with a planeswalker that threatening to flashback another spell in two turns. Now for the people who want to play Delver of Secrets or a more tempo oriented deck, then it would probably be better to stick with counter spells and snapcasters, but after playing both types of decks I can undoubtedly say that the Control version is the stronger of the two and if one were to become a tier 1 deck, I would definitely place my bets on the control version.
I hope my write up brings up some questions and if it does be sure to ask! Again, I don't know whats 100% right or wrong, but instead just want to see Sultai keep climbing towards the top.