The godfather of BGx Willy Edel tweeted his first take on Sultai BGx yesterday. Said he went 4-1 w/it in a league. He goes with Rain of Tears over Fulminator Mage in the sideboard in the hopes of getting extra uses out of Snappy. He goes DEEP on Damnation, and has the full playset of Collective Brutality in the 75. I like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver as a way to both fight midrange decks that are trying to go bigger as well as being a pretty great threat against control decks in my experience.
I like the manabase. The 4 Darkslick Shores incentivizes you to fetch Forest or Swamp early which is better for Blood Moon. I love Treetop Village in general, and since you're more aggressive in this build the cheaper activation is probably worth it. There is definitely some room to tune here, but generally speaking it looks good.
Played in another local event last night, had five rounds of modern with roughly thirty people showing up to jam! Awesome time all around, took BUG for a spin again after 5-0’ing an event last week. Ran the same maindeck for the most part, albeit on of the misty rainforest was switched into a verdant catacombs as I found I would flood on GU lands with the fetches the way they were. Fetching basic swamp seemed more important than forest/island due to fatal push. Deck is below. the golgari charm which is normally the 15th card was cut for an Ashiok out of the board, more thoughts on this later.
4 goyf
3 snap
2 tasigur
2 scooze
1 grim flayer
4 serum visions
4 fatal push
2 decay
2 dismember
1 maelstrom pulse
1 pulse of murasa
3 leak
3 snare
4 spreading seas
1 Jace, architect of thought
3 lumbering falls
1 tar pit
4 delta
1 misty
3 verdant
2 breeding pool
1 watery grave
1 overgrown tomb
2 botanical sanctum
1 darkalick shores
2 island
1 forest
1 swamp
Sideboard
2 clique
3 countersquall
2 kitchen finks
1 pulse of murasa
1 go for the throat
1 to the slaughter
1 ee
1 abrupt decay
1 damnation
1 painful truths
1 ashiok
Deck ran hot again, and I was able to swing a little luck and variance to another 4-0-1 finish. Me and the other guy split the final prize pool. Walked out with like 50 in store cred. Matchups and notes on them are below.
Burn 2-1
I’m on the play, and my hand has some general good stuff, 2 delta, verdant, goyf, push, snap and a pulse of murasa. Hand seemed fine as I didn’t know what I was playing against. I lead off with my delta and said go. He leads off with stomping ground into goblin guide and swings so the jig is up on what he’s playing. My hand lined up perfectly honestly, as I was able to fetch basics the first three turns and play a oyf to stonewall his dudes. I eventually cast pulse of murasa and snapped it back which prompted a quickend to the game.
Sideboard
In: 2 Finks, 3 countersquall, 1 pulse of murasa, 1 go for the throat
Out: 2 dismember, 2 decay, 1 spreading sea’s, 1 jace
Game two he kills me on turn three with an absolute nut draw. Triple goblin guide into atarka’s command on turn three.
Game three, I keep what is by far a REALLY loose hand with push and double spreading seas and countersquall on a mull to 6. I played a land, he played a lava spike, which made me think he had eidolon in hand. I spreading sea’s his first land so he can’t play an eidolon. He plays another mountain and plays a swiftsspear. I draw a third land, kill his swiftspear then spreading sea’s his second land which drew me a goyf. He doesn’t draw land the rest of the game and dies with two islands on board a couple turns later
Jeskai Nahiri 2-1
This match was probably my favorite the whole night. The games went forever and we were the last two playing as the round ended.
Game One: My hand had a ton of removal, and he’s playing a deck with no good targets. At one point I had all four push in my hand and laughed as he ticked up nahiri every turn. But at least I got his collonades. I died to emrakul.
Sideboard games
In: 1 to the slaughter, 1 ashiok, 3 countersquall, 2 clique, 2 kitchen finks
Out: 4 fatal push, 2 dismember, 2 decay, 1 grim flayer
I sided out the flayer to try and mitigate the effectiveness of snare on my creatures, plus kitchen finks are just incredibly hard for them to deal with. While path to exile is their best removal spell in the matchup, ultimatelyin the sideboard we become more of a blue deck and them ramping us with their removal spells helps us in the sub-game of mana advantage.
Game two: I jammed a goyf on turn two, he didn’t have a removal spell, I cast a clique to take his nahiri, and beat him for five holding up countersquall for a while.
Game 3: This game lasted FOREVER. We traded resources for a while, and neither of us could stick a threat. We got to a point where I had one card in hand (countersquall) and he had none with an ancestral coming off suspend. He goes to cast ancestral, I squall it. The card he draws for turn is colonnade ( he drew one earlier in the game but it had been spreadin sea’s). I think I’m pretty boned, but I draw a serum visions for turn. Cast a vision, it legit draws me spreading sea’s, and I scy my own manland (lumbering falls to the top). I sea’s hiscollonade, play lumbering falls. Next card is kitchen finks And win the game with beats.
Dredge 2-0
I honestly wasn’t expecting to play against this deck, and my sideboard was, to be truthful, not prepared at all for it. Game One I mulled to five and was incredibly lucky to have a scavenging ooze in my five, which honestly took over the game.
Sideboard
In: EE, Damnation, 2 kitchen finks, Ashiok
Out: 2 decay, 1 Jace, 2 dismember
Game two: My opening hand had a spell snare for cathartic reunion, a scangeing ooze, and an ashiok which was surprisingly decent.
Tron 2-1
Game one: the dreaded tron menace, I knew what the guy was playing so I was able to be a little bit disciplined in my mulligan decisions. I went to six, kept a hand with two serum visions and a mana leak and three lands and thought this can find me spreading seas. I was able to find a goyf and a sea’s off the second visions, and a mana leak on oblivion stone was able to put me ahead on tempo.
Sideboard games
game two: he went turn three worldbreaker and I didn’t have a mana leak. I died soon after lol.
Game three: spreading sea’s two lands and cliqued him to take his o-stone. He whiffed on a ancient stirrings for a third tron land twice, which have been able to let him blow up my only pressure. I got a little lucky.
My last match would have been against grixis delver, and honestly I’m happy to have gotten an ID. I think this matchup is particularly tricky, slightly unfavorable in my view. I was happy with the overall finish though.
Nice list;; Will you test it eventually? I'll do !!
If you can make some videos with this list;; it would be great ! i like your videos.
Can do. I think I might do Kiki Chord this week though as I've been toying around with Eldritch Evolution and Renegade Rallier...it's pretty fun. If I get extra time this weekend though...
@Velthov
I think the Cryptic list would benefit from -1 Hoots, +1 Tasigur. I only ran two Tasigur bc of Flayer. Without Flayer filtering I'd want 3rd Tasigur for mid/late game card adv. Also might consider cutting one Squall for a Go for the Throat as an extra answer to Smasher/prime time etc.
Midrange list. Pairing New Lily with counters is infinitely better than LotV. I think you may cut a visions for an extra TS...otherwise It looks fun. Would like some Scours in there somehow.
Both look fun though...and fun is most important at FNM I feel.
@raikenxy
Congrats! Spreading Seas is slick. It's a great card I hadn't thought of. Would pair excellently with Collective Brutality too. I also like the Lumbering Falls with the uptick in Fatal Push.
I wonder if these more controlling lists would be able to get away with playing Sylvan Advocate. Could be a two of in place of Flayer in my list going up to 3 Tasigur. Plays offense/defense early, probably better than Flayer most of the time early and pairs as a big threat with man lands late.
I've been having mild success with the deck below. Ashiok is great against creature-heavy decks, but I'm thinking it might not be best on the MB and I'd do better to have 2 in the side and have another counter or removal on the MB in that flex spot. LTLH and Jace are all-stars, though, and they really slow down aggro decks. I really, really like Cut, as it's an "out of nowhere" kind of card and hits things that are out of reach of Decay and Push. Decks I've run into issues with are swarmy-type decks, like Faeries and Elves. Most of my sideboard is obviously targeting Tron and Dredge.
Most of my sideboard is obviously targeting Tron and Dredge.
Have you been able to beat Tron consistently enough that its worth dedicating so many sideboard slots to the match up at the expense of others?
I definitely know I'm over-compensating. I actually haven't faced Tron, so I've created the side to training wheels myself until I get comfortable with the matchup.
-1 Hooting (I need card advantage tasigur provide)
+1 tasigur
-1 Stubborn denial
+1 Tireless tracker
I tried Tireless because it's good with fatal push.
It can also activate stubborn denial with one clue cracked.
Late game, we are able to protect him.. and he just win by himself.
The godfather of BGx Willy Edel tweeted his first take on Sultai BGx yesterday. Said he went 4-1 w/it in a league. He goes with Rain of Tears over Fulminator Mage in the sideboard in the hopes of getting extra uses out of Snappy. He goes DEEP on Damnation, and has the full playset of Collective Brutality in the 75. I like Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver as a way to both fight midrange decks that are trying to go bigger as well as being a pretty great threat against control decks in my experience.
I like the manabase. The 4 Darkslick Shores incentivizes you to fetch Forest or Swamp early which is better for Blood Moon. I love Treetop Village in general, and since you're more aggressive in this build the cheaper activation is probably worth it. There is definitely some room to tune here, but generally speaking it looks good.
Tested this yesterday against a few decks (2 different Grixis lists - control and delver, Ad Naus, and a weird Zoo with bushwhacker and That new card). It feels suprisingly good, but there is definitely room for some tweaking. I'm not sure where though. MVP was grim flayer, and Stubborn. They both did absolute work. The deck flows nicely from early disruption (discard) with pressure into some late game control with ferocious stubborns. Facing threats above 4 CMC was an issue though, Lili or pulse were my only top decks that could deal. Not sure if a go for the throat is needed, or a murderous cut, but I worry cut strains the delve too much? I'm also considering testing a single Logic Knot as a late game catch all, but again am iffy for same reason as cut.
Moving onto some of my greater concerns moving forward with the list, as I didn't get to test these scenarios:
- How does it handle GY hate? I worry as a large part of our engine/resources/effects rely on the GY and cards like RIP would hurt alot!
- The sideboard lacks ways of dealing with enchantments, artifacts, burn, and GY strats (outside of the abrupts and pulse main). I realise SB's are tailored to metas and that big mana decks are coming up alot online, but there is alot left out in that proposed package. *edit* Also I realise that the list is a rough first draft! haha
Overall though, I surprisingly had a blast playing this deck, and coming from someone who was bored with jund, it somehow doesn't feel like I'm playing the same jund em out strat at all.. I dunno call me crazy.. Let's keep up the discussions!!
I didnt test it that much but in the 4 matchs I played..
match1- never drew it
match2-game 1 he drew me 2 cards and died by bolt. (played it on turn 4 with no counter up to protect him)
match2-game 2 he drew me 5 cards and won the game being a 8/7
match3-Drew me 4 cards and I was so aheah.. the oponent conceded.
Overall I did 4-0 and liked it. It is very more control oriented that any version with grim flayer.
It's not rare that I finish my games with 20-25 cards left in the deck.
Played against this list in my league. If you want to see how a game might play out with it I'll have the video up on my channel in a little bit. Granted I don't have the most experience with Kiki Chord, so I am playing very slowly and probably suboptimally...DON'T JUDGE ME...but please offer feedback on lines I miss https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4qcGbT7UN-flD9hMc8qD-g
I tried the following list based on the Willy Edel list posted above. I don't have my complete set of fatal pushes yet and I made a few changes based on how I wanted to play it, the ability to fuel the graveyard and recur your threats with Liliana, the Last Hope seemed to be a great place to start. I also don't have Zen fetches and have no intention to get them soon (they're bound to be reprinted soon, right? )
Against burn the threat of Tarmogoyf and Grim Flayer with Spell Snare and Stubborn Denial backup was great and collective brutality is a house against them. I think I dropped one out of ten games against it.
Against Jund, the matches were much closer as Grim Flayer gets stonewalled by their Tarmogoyfs. I found myself flashing in snapcaster quite a bit in response to LotV -2 which worked well the first few times to catch my opponent. Otherwise I have nothing really profound to say regarding this matchup, an unchecked Dark Confidant does work and this list ran a one of huntmaster of the fells and Chandra, Torch of Defiance which was great at killing Grim Flayers.
I'll be taking this list to a few local FNMs and SCG Modern night events and I hope to get more insight into what works and what my sideboard needs to look like. The testing above was just friendly testing to let me get familiar with the deck. Going in, I had concerns that delirium might be hard to achieve but it never really proved a problem, I don't think I ever attacked with Grim Flayer as a 2/2.
I tried the following list based on the Willy Edel list posted above. I don't have my complete set of fatal pushes yet and I made a few changes based on how I wanted to play it, the ability to fuel the graveyard and recur your threats with Liliana, the Last Hope seemed to be a great place to start. I also don't have Zen fetches and have no intention to get them soon (they're bound to be reprinted soon, right? )
Against burn the threat of Tarmogoyf and Grim Flayer with Spell Snare and Stubborn Denial backup was great and collective brutality is a house against them. I think I dropped one out of ten games against it.
Against Jund, the matches were much closer as Grim Flayer gets stonewalled by their Tarmogoyfs. I found myself flashing in snapcaster quite a bit in response to LotV -2 which worked well the first few times to catch my opponent. Otherwise I have nothing really profound to say regarding this matchup, an unchecked Dark Confidant does work and this list ran a one of huntmaster of the fells and Chandra, Torch of Defiance which was great at killing Grim Flayers.
I'll be taking this list to a few local FNMs and SCG Modern night events and I hope to get more insight into what works and what my sideboard needs to look like. The testing above was just friendly testing to let me get familiar with the deck. Going in, I had concerns that delirium might be hard to achieve but it never really proved a problem, I don't think I ever attacked with Grim Flayer as a 2/2.
Biggest thing I notice right away is that he runs LOTV and you have Last Hope. So that cuts out your edict effects, and you have less main board removal than him so I could speculate you might lack answers against Eldrazi, Tasigur, or otherwise high CMC threats. Hexproof may or may not be a problem too.
I've seen several list going without Serum Visions. Is it worth dropping for other spells?
@h3xw0l7 I like the list, you are however light on removal spells, as mentioned before. If you where to have the full play set of Fatal Push, how'd the list look like?
Many modern events this weekend, I'm hoping for some sort of BUG list to take top 8 or 16 :)..
In the BGx versions of Sultai Serum Visions is not a necessary card. You are trying to disrupt and close. Thought Scour helps feed your Goyfs, Flayers and Snapcaster Mages far more effectively than Serum Visions does while simultaneously acting as a sort of combo trick pumping your creatures after blocks.
In the UBx version of Sultai that are playing more controlling you almost certainly want Serum Visions.
I've seen several list going without Serum Visions. Is it worth dropping for other spells?
@h3xw0l7 I like the list, you are however light on removal spells, as mentioned before. If you where to have the full play set of Fatal Push, how'd the list look like?
Many modern events this weekend, I'm hoping for some sort of BUG list to take top 8 or 16 :)..
I agree again about being a bit light on removal, I also posted a 59 card list (it was late and I think I sleeved up a mana leak just to hit 60 for testing). I could include edict effects in the board for the random bogles match however as much as I like LotVs -2 her +1 just always felt terrible with this list. Going forward, this is what I plan to take to a 4 round on Thursday.
Regarding edict effects, is Warren Weirding worth considering for the tribal type? This would be sideboard if included, I may pick a few up and test with it and see if I ever want to bring it in. I could also board 3 Liliana of the Veil to swap with Liliana, the Last Hope where I want the edict effect though I probably won't pending a bogles meta.
I like Durward's creature suite better because there's less tension between the Delve creatures, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster Mage and Grim Flayer (Grim Flayer also wasn't a card then). I've played the exact Durward list before and generally liked how it was built. I basically cut a few lands, because 25 felt like too many, added a Go for the Throat for extra Eldrazi and larger creature removal, and incorporated a few Liliana, the Last Hope and a set of Fatal Push.
I like Durward's creature suite better because there's less tension between the Delve creatures, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster Mage and Grim Flayer (Grim Flayer also wasn't a card then). I've played the exact Durward list before and generally liked how it was built. I basically cut a few lands, because 25 felt like too many, added a Go for the Throat for extra Eldrazi and larger creature removal, and incorporated a few Liliana, the Last Hope and a set of Fatal Push.
No results yet, just put it together today. Trying something different than my usual BUG lists for the next few weeks and see how these Stubborn Denial lists feel. I play just about every day in paper with my testing partners so I should have some general thoughts to share soon.
Played against this list in my league. If you want to see how a game might play out with it I'll have the video up on my channel in a little bit. Granted I don't have the most experience with Kiki Chord, so I am playing very slowly and probably suboptimally...DON'T JUDGE ME...but please offer feedback on lines I miss https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4qcGbT7UN-flD9hMc8qD-g
Haven't watched you play against the Sultai Delirium list yet, but watched a few of your matches with Willy Edel's midrange. Saw in the comments section you would make ~10 changes to the 75. Any thoughts on what you'd change yet?
@smoresnbacon Adjustments in the main:
-1 Stubborn Denial - We only need enough counter magic in the main to keep our opponent off balance. The deck is more delirium than control, which means we should be pressing the attack.
-1 Collective Brutality - I want 3 in the 75 for Burn, but I only want 1 in my main for my 7th hand disruption
-1 Abrupt Decay - Want 3 in the 75 but this deck is short fatty boom boom killers
-1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang - It's just 1 to many in a deck trying to run 4 Grim Flayer main, which I think is correct with the focus on T1 hand disruption.
+1 Go for the Throat - fatty boom boom killer
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek - I want 6 pieces of T1 hand disruption in these lists
+2 Nihil Spellbomb - I actually think this is in a good place right now, pairs well with our beaters, cantrips if you can afford it. It's commonly played in Abzan lists and it's primarily a Grim Flayer/Tarmogoyf enabler.
I'm also not sure that we should be playing a man land other than Creeping Tar Pit
Adjustments in the side:
-2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - LtLH is better against control, midrange mirrors and swarm aggro. Playing 3 Damnation and 2 Ashiok as a way to fight creature decks is just to slow. Ashiok always underperforms and it makes me sad.
-1 Surgical Extraction - Cut down with addition of 2 main deck Nihil Spellbombs. Still like 2 paired w/hand disruption/countermagic/land destruction/thought scour plan.
-2 Damnation - I can see one, but this just needs to represent more 2cmc Terminate style removal.
+1 Negate - BGx loses to Burn and spell based combo like Valakut off Scapeshift, Tron, Storm. We want to have ways of stopping those.
+1 Spell Pierce/Stubborn Denial/Dispel - I'm not sure this shouldn't just be another Negate, but I want to try 2 Spell Pierce. I'm somewhat worried about reliably having 4 pwr creatures in post board games, and the spells that tend to matter and create our creature weakness (Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus come down early so we may benefit from the 1 cmc disruption more here.
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope - Mentioned above about Ashiok.
+1 Go for the Throat/Victim of Night (fatty boom boom killers) - I prefer Go for the Throat b/c it kills EVERY big creature. It cannot touch Affinity, which is a bummer but you wouldn't side it in versus them either. It's possible Victim is better than the second GftT because it is playable versus Affinity, but I think about it's inability to kill (Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Gurmag Angler, Huntmaster of the Fells).
+1 Abrupt Decay - I want 3 in the 75. There are plenty of random things to handle and it handles so many.
I like the manabase. The 4 Darkslick Shores incentivizes you to fetch Forest or Swamp early which is better for Blood Moon. I love Treetop Village in general, and since you're more aggressive in this build the cheaper activation is probably worth it. There is definitely some room to tune here, but generally speaking it looks good.
https://twitter.com/bazardebagda/status/831161925979471873/photo/1
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants 13
4 Fatal Push
3 Thought Scour
3 Stubborn Denial
3 Abrupt Decay
Sorceries 8
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands 22
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Blooming Marsh
2 Treetop Village
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
2 Collective Brutality
3 Rain of Tears
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Painful Truths
3 Damnation
If you can make some videos with this list;; it would be great ! i like your videos.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
4 goyf
3 snap
2 tasigur
2 scooze
1 grim flayer
4 serum visions
4 fatal push
2 decay
2 dismember
1 maelstrom pulse
1 pulse of murasa
3 leak
3 snare
4 spreading seas
1 Jace, architect of thought
3 lumbering falls
1 tar pit
4 delta
1 misty
3 verdant
2 breeding pool
1 watery grave
1 overgrown tomb
2 botanical sanctum
1 darkalick shores
2 island
1 forest
1 swamp
Sideboard
2 clique
3 countersquall
2 kitchen finks
1 pulse of murasa
1 go for the throat
1 to the slaughter
1 ee
1 abrupt decay
1 damnation
1 painful truths
1 ashiok
Deck ran hot again, and I was able to swing a little luck and variance to another 4-0-1 finish. Me and the other guy split the final prize pool. Walked out with like 50 in store cred. Matchups and notes on them are below.
Burn 2-1
I’m on the play, and my hand has some general good stuff, 2 delta, verdant, goyf, push, snap and a pulse of murasa. Hand seemed fine as I didn’t know what I was playing against. I lead off with my delta and said go. He leads off with stomping ground into goblin guide and swings so the jig is up on what he’s playing. My hand lined up perfectly honestly, as I was able to fetch basics the first three turns and play a oyf to stonewall his dudes. I eventually cast pulse of murasa and snapped it back which prompted a quickend to the game.
Sideboard
In: 2 Finks, 3 countersquall, 1 pulse of murasa, 1 go for the throat
Out: 2 dismember, 2 decay, 1 spreading sea’s, 1 jace
Game two he kills me on turn three with an absolute nut draw. Triple goblin guide into atarka’s command on turn three.
Game three, I keep what is by far a REALLY loose hand with push and double spreading seas and countersquall on a mull to 6. I played a land, he played a lava spike, which made me think he had eidolon in hand. I spreading sea’s his first land so he can’t play an eidolon. He plays another mountain and plays a swiftsspear. I draw a third land, kill his swiftspear then spreading sea’s his second land which drew me a goyf. He doesn’t draw land the rest of the game and dies with two islands on board a couple turns later
Jeskai Nahiri 2-1
This match was probably my favorite the whole night. The games went forever and we were the last two playing as the round ended.
Game One: My hand had a ton of removal, and he’s playing a deck with no good targets. At one point I had all four push in my hand and laughed as he ticked up nahiri every turn. But at least I got his collonades. I died to emrakul.
Sideboard games
In: 1 to the slaughter, 1 ashiok, 3 countersquall, 2 clique, 2 kitchen finks
Out: 4 fatal push, 2 dismember, 2 decay, 1 grim flayer
I sided out the flayer to try and mitigate the effectiveness of snare on my creatures, plus kitchen finks are just incredibly hard for them to deal with. While path to exile is their best removal spell in the matchup, ultimatelyin the sideboard we become more of a blue deck and them ramping us with their removal spells helps us in the sub-game of mana advantage.
Game two: I jammed a goyf on turn two, he didn’t have a removal spell, I cast a clique to take his nahiri, and beat him for five holding up countersquall for a while.
Game 3: This game lasted FOREVER. We traded resources for a while, and neither of us could stick a threat. We got to a point where I had one card in hand (countersquall) and he had none with an ancestral coming off suspend. He goes to cast ancestral, I squall it. The card he draws for turn is colonnade ( he drew one earlier in the game but it had been spreadin sea’s). I think I’m pretty boned, but I draw a serum visions for turn. Cast a vision, it legit draws me spreading sea’s, and I scy my own manland (lumbering falls to the top). I sea’s hiscollonade, play lumbering falls. Next card is kitchen finks And win the game with beats.
Dredge 2-0
I honestly wasn’t expecting to play against this deck, and my sideboard was, to be truthful, not prepared at all for it. Game One I mulled to five and was incredibly lucky to have a scavenging ooze in my five, which honestly took over the game.
Sideboard
In: EE, Damnation, 2 kitchen finks, Ashiok
Out: 2 decay, 1 Jace, 2 dismember
Game two: My opening hand had a spell snare for cathartic reunion, a scangeing ooze, and an ashiok which was surprisingly decent.
Tron 2-1
Game one: the dreaded tron menace, I knew what the guy was playing so I was able to be a little bit disciplined in my mulligan decisions. I went to six, kept a hand with two serum visions and a mana leak and three lands and thought this can find me spreading seas. I was able to find a goyf and a sea’s off the second visions, and a mana leak on oblivion stone was able to put me ahead on tempo.
Sideboard games
in: 3 countersquall, 2 vendillion clique, 2 kitchen finks, 1 to the slaughter, 1 ashiok, 1 painful truths
Out: 3 spell snare (it legit only hits sylvan scying), 2 dismember, 4 fatal push, 1 scooze
*** I left in decay for o-stone
game two: he went turn three worldbreaker and I didn’t have a mana leak. I died soon after lol.
Game three: spreading sea’s two lands and cliqued him to take his o-stone. He whiffed on a ancient stirrings for a third tron land twice, which have been able to let him blow up my only pressure. I got a little lucky.
My last match would have been against grixis delver, and honestly I’m happy to have gotten an ID. I think this matchup is particularly tricky, slightly unfavorable in my view. I was happy with the overall finish though.
Can do. I think I might do Kiki Chord this week though as I've been toying around with Eldritch Evolution and Renegade Rallier...it's pretty fun. If I get extra time this weekend though...
@Velthov
I think the Cryptic list would benefit from -1 Hoots, +1 Tasigur. I only ran two Tasigur bc of Flayer. Without Flayer filtering I'd want 3rd Tasigur for mid/late game card adv. Also might consider cutting one Squall for a Go for the Throat as an extra answer to Smasher/prime time etc.
Midrange list. Pairing New Lily with counters is infinitely better than LotV. I think you may cut a visions for an extra TS...otherwise It looks fun. Would like some Scours in there somehow.
Both look fun though...and fun is most important at FNM I feel.
@raikenxy
Congrats! Spreading Seas is slick. It's a great card I hadn't thought of. Would pair excellently with Collective Brutality too. I also like the Lumbering Falls with the uptick in Fatal Push.
I wonder if these more controlling lists would be able to get away with playing Sylvan Advocate. Could be a two of in place of Flayer in my list going up to 3 Tasigur. Plays offense/defense early, probably better than Flayer most of the time early and pairs as a big threat with man lands late.
I've been having mild success with the deck below. Ashiok is great against creature-heavy decks, but I'm thinking it might not be best on the MB and I'd do better to have 2 in the side and have another counter or removal on the MB in that flex spot. LTLH and Jace are all-stars, though, and they really slow down aggro decks. I really, really like Cut, as it's an "out of nowhere" kind of card and hits things that are out of reach of Decay and Push. Decks I've run into issues with are swarmy-type decks, like Faeries and Elves. Most of my sideboard is obviously targeting Tron and Dredge.
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants 14
4 Fatal Push
2 Thought Scour
2 Countersquall
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Mana Leak
1 Murderous Cut
Sorceries 10
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Damnation
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Serum Visions
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
Lands 22
3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Surgical Extraction
3 Ravenous Trap
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Pulse of Murasa
1 Damnation
I definitely know I'm over-compensating. I actually haven't faced Tron, so I've created the side to training wheels myself until I get comfortable with the matchup.
-1 Hooting (I need card advantage tasigur provide)
+1 tasigur
-1 Stubborn denial
+1 Tireless tracker
I tried Tireless because it's good with fatal push.
It can also activate stubborn denial with one clue cracked.
Late game, we are able to protect him.. and he just win by himself.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Snapcaster mage
3 Tasigur, the golden fang
1 Tireless Tracker
Instant(21)
4 Fatal push
4 Cryptic command
3 Thought scour
2 Stubborn denial
3 Abrupt decay
2 Spell snare
2 Mana leak
1 Go for the throat
4 Serum visions
1 Maelstrom pulse
Land(22)
4 Polluted delta
3 Misty rainforest
2 Verdant catacombs
2 Creeping Tar pit
3 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
2 Breeding pool
2 Watery grave
1 Overgrown tomb
1 Drowned Catacomb
2 Dispel
2 Countersquall
3 Damnation
3 Surgical extraction
1 Night of soul's betrayal
2 Collective Brutality
1 Engineered explosives
1 Ceremonious Rejection
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Tested this yesterday against a few decks (2 different Grixis lists - control and delver, Ad Naus, and a weird Zoo with bushwhacker and That new card). It feels suprisingly good, but there is definitely room for some tweaking. I'm not sure where though. MVP was grim flayer, and Stubborn. They both did absolute work. The deck flows nicely from early disruption (discard) with pressure into some late game control with ferocious stubborns. Facing threats above 4 CMC was an issue though, Lili or pulse were my only top decks that could deal. Not sure if a go for the throat is needed, or a murderous cut, but I worry cut strains the delve too much? I'm also considering testing a single Logic Knot as a late game catch all, but again am iffy for same reason as cut.
Moving onto some of my greater concerns moving forward with the list, as I didn't get to test these scenarios:
- How does it handle GY hate? I worry as a large part of our engine/resources/effects rely on the GY and cards like RIP would hurt alot!
- The sideboard lacks ways of dealing with enchantments, artifacts, burn, and GY strats (outside of the abrupts and pulse main). I realise SB's are tailored to metas and that big mana decks are coming up alot online, but there is alot left out in that proposed package. *edit* Also I realise that the list is a rough first draft! haha
Overall though, I surprisingly had a blast playing this deck, and coming from someone who was bored with jund, it somehow doesn't feel like I'm playing the same jund em out strat at all.. I dunno call me crazy.. Let's keep up the discussions!!
match1- never drew it
match2-game 1 he drew me 2 cards and died by bolt. (played it on turn 4 with no counter up to protect him)
match2-game 2 he drew me 5 cards and won the game being a 8/7
match3-Drew me 4 cards and I was so aheah.. the oponent conceded.
Overall I did 4-0 and liked it. It is very more control oriented that any version with grim flayer.
It's not rare that I finish my games with 20-25 cards left in the deck.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Played against this list in my league. If you want to see how a game might play out with it I'll have the video up on my channel in a little bit. Granted I don't have the most experience with Kiki Chord, so I am playing very slowly and probably suboptimally...DON'T JUDGE ME...but please offer feedback on lines I miss
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC4qcGbT7UN-flD9hMc8qD-g
Against burn the threat of Tarmogoyf and Grim Flayer with Spell Snare and Stubborn Denial backup was great and collective brutality is a house against them. I think I dropped one out of ten games against it.
Against Jund, the matches were much closer as Grim Flayer gets stonewalled by their Tarmogoyfs. I found myself flashing in snapcaster quite a bit in response to LotV -2 which worked well the first few times to catch my opponent. Otherwise I have nothing really profound to say regarding this matchup, an unchecked Dark Confidant does work and this list ran a one of huntmaster of the fells and Chandra, Torch of Defiance which was great at killing Grim Flayers.
I'll be taking this list to a few local FNMs and SCG Modern night events and I hope to get more insight into what works and what my sideboard needs to look like. The testing above was just friendly testing to let me get familiar with the deck. Going in, I had concerns that delirium might be hard to achieve but it never really proved a problem, I don't think I ever attacked with Grim Flayer as a 2/2.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants 12
2 Fatal Push
3 Thought Scour
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
Sorceries 8
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
Lands 22
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Woodland Cemetery
2 Treetop Village
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
3 Rain of Tears
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Painful Truths
3 Ceremonious Rejection
Biggest thing I notice right away is that he runs LOTV and you have Last Hope. So that cuts out your edict effects, and you have less main board removal than him so I could speculate you might lack answers against Eldrazi, Tasigur, or otherwise high CMC threats. Hexproof may or may not be a problem too.
Overall I really love the concept though
Draft My Cube!
In the BGx versions of Sultai Serum Visions is not a necessary card. You are trying to disrupt and close. Thought Scour helps feed your Goyfs, Flayers and Snapcaster Mages far more effectively than Serum Visions does while simultaneously acting as a sort of combo trick pumping your creatures after blocks.
In the UBx version of Sultai that are playing more controlling you almost certainly want Serum Visions.
I agree again about being a bit light on removal, I also posted a 59 card list (it was late and I think I sleeved up a mana leak just to hit 60 for testing). I could include edict effects in the board for the random bogles match however as much as I like LotVs -2 her +1 just always felt terrible with this list. Going forward, this is what I plan to take to a 4 round on Thursday.
Regarding edict effects, is Warren Weirding worth considering for the tribal type? This would be sideboard if included, I may pick a few up and test with it and see if I ever want to bring it in. I could also board 3 Liliana of the Veil to swap with Liliana, the Last Hope where I want the edict effect though I probably won't pending a bogles meta.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Grim Flayer
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants 13
3 Fatal Push
3 Thought Scour
2 Stubborn Denial
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
Sorceries 8
3 Thoughtseize
2 Inquistion of Kozilek
2 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Liliana, the Last Hope
Lands 22
4 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Woodland Cemetery
2 Treetop Village
1 To The Slaughter
1 Fatal Push
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Collective Brutality
3 Rain of Tears
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Painful Truths
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1x Breeding Pool
4x Darkslick Shores
1x Forest
1x Island
3x Misty Rainforest
2x Overgrown Tomb
4x Polluted Delta
2x Swamp
1x Treetop Village
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
// Instant (14)
3x Abrupt Decay
4x Fatal Push
1x Go for the Throat
3x Stubborn Denial
3x Thought Scour
3x Snapcaster Mage
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2x Thragtusk
// Planeswalker (4)
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
// Sorcery (7)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
2x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Thoughtseize
2x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2x Collective Brutality
2x Countersquall
3x Damnation
3x Rain of Tears
3x Surgical Extraction
The original Durward list for reference: http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/modern-bug/
What are your results with your list?
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Adjustments in the main:
-1 Stubborn Denial - We only need enough counter magic in the main to keep our opponent off balance. The deck is more delirium than control, which means we should be pressing the attack.
-1 Collective Brutality - I want 3 in the 75 for Burn, but I only want 1 in my main for my 7th hand disruption
-1 Abrupt Decay - Want 3 in the 75 but this deck is short fatty boom boom killers
-1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang - It's just 1 to many in a deck trying to run 4 Grim Flayer main, which I think is correct with the focus on T1 hand disruption.
+1 Go for the Throat - fatty boom boom killer
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek - I want 6 pieces of T1 hand disruption in these lists
+2 Nihil Spellbomb - I actually think this is in a good place right now, pairs well with our beaters, cantrips if you can afford it. It's commonly played in Abzan lists and it's primarily a Grim Flayer/Tarmogoyf enabler.
I'm also not sure that we should be playing a man land other than Creeping Tar Pit
Adjustments in the side:
-2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver - LtLH is better against control, midrange mirrors and swarm aggro. Playing 3 Damnation and 2 Ashiok as a way to fight creature decks is just to slow. Ashiok always underperforms and it makes me sad.
-1 Surgical Extraction - Cut down with addition of 2 main deck Nihil Spellbombs. Still like 2 paired w/hand disruption/countermagic/land destruction/thought scour plan.
-2 Damnation - I can see one, but this just needs to represent more 2cmc Terminate style removal.
+1 Negate - BGx loses to Burn and spell based combo like Valakut off Scapeshift, Tron, Storm. We want to have ways of stopping those.
+1 Spell Pierce/Stubborn Denial/Dispel - I'm not sure this shouldn't just be another Negate, but I want to try 2 Spell Pierce. I'm somewhat worried about reliably having 4 pwr creatures in post board games, and the spells that tend to matter and create our creature weakness (Rest in Peace, Relic of Progenitus come down early so we may benefit from the 1 cmc disruption more here.
+1 Liliana, the Last Hope - Mentioned above about Ashiok.
+1 Go for the Throat/Victim of Night (fatty boom boom killers) - I prefer Go for the Throat b/c it kills EVERY big creature. It cannot touch Affinity, which is a bummer but you wouldn't side it in versus them either. It's possible Victim is better than the second GftT because it is playable versus Affinity, but I think about it's inability to kill (Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet, Gurmag Angler, Huntmaster of the Fells).
+1 Abrupt Decay - I want 3 in the 75. There are plenty of random things to handle and it handles so many.