A few interactions I'm worried about (with Thing in the Ice):
-Cast your final spell to flip Thing and with the return trigger on the stack, they flash in Snapcaster, flashback something to remove our Thing (Path or Push), then the bounce trigger resolves and they get their Snapcaster back.
-They flash in Reflector mage with AEther Vial while Thing's bounce trigger is on the stack. Trigger resolves and they get Reflector back.
-You're forced to flip Thing while you have Tasigur down and you must delve again to cast him again. Not too worried about this but it can & will happen
Here's my BUG Midrange/Control build I'm experimenting with. I'm considering if it's worth it to have 1-2 JtMS in there as well, but so far this list has been working pretty well without him. Any thoughts?
Could be a mistake, not 100% decided yet but I usually prefer the delve threat/Thought Scour package with Snapcaster Mage so I kinda just defaulted to something I'm comfortable with. I also think, even in a post-Assassin's Trophy world, the delve guys should be a bit more resilient than goyf, but I might be overrating them.
The deck plays a lot like a Grixis deck but leans into green instead of red, so I've used the same fundamentals. The Angler might be replaced with a Tombstalker since the deck feels a bit soft against opposing flyers, but it's still something that needs testing.
This with Assassin's Trophy just gives so many "catch all" cards. You can deal with any permanent or problematic card(s). Like he mentioned in his article: [quote]The card is playable against Tron, Ironworks, Scapeshift, Amulet Titan, Storm, Ad Nauseam, Living End, Lantern, and Dredge as a pre-emptive strike at the heart of their gameplans. It's even tolerable against Mardu Pyromancer in a pinch, stopping their powerful draw engine in Bedlam Reveler. For decks prepared to play fair, this is a godsend.
Is it really fair that Assassin's Trophy is grossly overpowered/undercosted? And is it fair to keep flashing this back again and again with Snapcaster? Methinks not.
</blockquote>
Which brings up a good point I thought of when first looking at the spoilers. Will Assassin's Trophy get banned a la DRS? I realize this is not the forum to discuss this so I'll drop it we that.
For now, I'm certainly planning on playing at least 3-4 in all my decks. Trophy plus Unmoored Ego certainly creates legacy BUG feel for this deck. If only we had some of the creatures they do (Shardless, True Name, Strix) but we've got our own value engines in Snapcaster and Tracker.
I like the list posted with creatures as 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Ooze, 3 Tracker. That seems like a solid place to start. I think I'll try something like that with a PW package of: 2 LOTV, 1 JTMS, 1 LTLH
Can you explain what you mean? Thing in the Ice seems like the best option against humans, bridge vine, hollow one, bogles, and affinity.
Jace would fit my definition of greedy. He doesnt do a ton for the linear matchups and is really just there for the attrition based ones.
Thing seems the exact opposite. It isnt good against control or midrange but if your opponent doesnt have removal then thing is nuts in what are likely our worst matchups.
First of all, there are established BUG lists to build off of that are streamlined.
Second, Think in the Ice means you cannot really play things like Tarmogoyf, Grim Flayer, Tireless Tracker, or Scavenging Ooze without reseting your own board at no value for a mere flip on Thing in the Ice - in a set of colors that has a plethora of removal spells at its disposal. Your game gets pushed more towards instant speed play and creatures like Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique and at that point, why are you even in green?
Sultai Midrange, using previously establishes lists, don't have issues with the decks you listed for a reason to run Thing in the Ice. If you are having issues with them, it is more than likely a result of inefficient operations from the pilot (or greedy/bad lists).
Affinity can be trouble sometimes, but you can fix that with boarding options pretty easily. Hollowed ones end up just running into Goyfs in the mid and late game. You can wall them pretty hard if you focus on the long game. As for Boggles, lists running Spreading Seas were incredibly favored in the match, and with access to Assassin's Trophy you can advance the same game plan without Spreading Seas. They have 2 basics to search for and few lands to redraw.
All that isn't even mentioning how bad of a card it is in general and how many actual interaction points with it exist in the current Modern format climate.
Which brings up a good point I thought of when first looking at the spoilers. Will Assassin's Trophy get banned a la DRS? I realize this is not the forum to discuss this so I'll drop it we that.
For now, I'm certainly planning on playing at least 3-4 in all my decks. Trophy plus Unmoored Ego certainly creates legacy BUG feel for this deck. If only we had some of the creatures they do (Shardless, True Name, Strix) but we've got our own value engines in Snapcaster and Tracker.
I like the list posted with creatures as 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Ooze, 3 Tracker. That seems like a solid place to start. I think I'll try something like that with a PW package of: 2 LOTV, 1 JTMS, 1 LTLH
I don't expect it to get banned. It has been no secret that BG Midrange decks have been pushed out of the format entirely by Tron decks and it is pretty clear that this card was meant to address decks like Tron. I have a hard time imagining this card is anything but what they wanted it to be.
I want to share some thoughts about possible directions this deck can go to get some ideas flowing. Clearly, we haven't found a consistent strategy that works, so here are some "shells" and ideas given the additions of GRN. Although we are a fair deck, we are capable of doing some unfair things (like casting Traverse to get a 10/10 Death's Shadow for a total of 2 mana.):
Charnel Troll: This is an easy addition to any Traverse list with Architects of Will and Street Wraith keeping it fueled and cycling through your deck. The troll feels like a Goblin Rabblemaster with evasion and a much bigger butt. It also helps a midrange deck "turn the corner" and finish an opponent off relatively quickly for little mana investment. It can be protected with Stubborn Denial as well. I feel like this idea definitely warrants testing.
Mausoleum Secrets: A 2 mana tutor that can get a variety of different types of cards needs to be considered. It feels like Traverse, requiring some minor set-up, but can become very valuable mid to late game due to it's versatility, finding a creature, removal, or discard, whatever you need to keep the game plan going and can easily be snapped as well.
I did think about the state of Sultai as well with Trophy and especially Unmoored Ego being printed soon. I think it has to look very streamlined and similar to a typical Jund/Abzan build (where I come from obviously).
You got 20 black sources which is enough for turn 3 LtLH, you got 17 blue sources which is sufficient for turn 4 jace (if you account the cantrips as well it basically adds up to 18 sources, which is enough to have double blue on turn 4) and you got 13 green sources enough to have turn 2 green.
I did think about the state of Sultai as well with Trophy and especially Unmoored Ego being printed soon. I think it has to look very streamlined and similar to a typical Jund/Abzan build (where I come from obviously).
You got 20 black sources which is enough for turn 3 LtLH, you got 17 blue sources which is sufficient for turn 4 jace (if you account the cantrips as well it basically adds up to 18 sources, which is enough to have double blue on turn 4) and you got 13 green sources enough to have turn 2 green.
Gurmag + Snapcaster + Liliana, the Last Hope seems counter intuitive. Liliana has you wanting to consume spells from the GY with Gurmag delving, but Snapcaster wants you leaving spells in and delving lands and creatures. In my experience, you give Relic of Progenitus a lot of leeway whne you thin out your yard like that.
With Unmoored Ego being legal, is Ceremonious Rejection still a thing? I feel like Damping Sphere stops Tron but overlaps vs Storm decks as well as the random creature spammy decks like Elves.
About the only criticism I have.
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It is true that GY hate is a problem. Gurmag serve just as goyfs 5-7, however, I could see replacing 1 copy with another spell. Like if you compare Legacy Grixis Control to that, they also run 3 Snapcaster alongside 2 Anglers, which would be about the same then. Might be a bit better, to which I agree. However, in my testing LtLH + Angler work fine together. Also LtLH with Snappy work fine together. Its only that all 3 cards together can get a bit too much.
Rejection is imo still needed for Hardened Scales. Ego is also not an autowin vs KCI, where Rejection does still help.
Coming from playing Grixis in modern, the idea of running Snaps+Angler+LtLH works well, but you might have to support them with more Thought Scours, especially if you add Goyfs to the mix. I think the tension between goyfs who want a stable GY, and Anglers who feed of a one-shot big GY might end up being an issue.
IMHO the Anglers are not needed in this list. Exchange the Thought Scour for a 24th land and play Tireless Tracker instead of Angler. In a deck with 3x JTMS you're not obviously not committing to closing games quickly so why not include another card advantage engine?
Personally I also think you've got too many colored Mana symbols of all three different colors. You want U or B available turn one, then both B & G on turn two, then UU on turn four, and by the time you drop Scooze you want at least one extra G to use him right away so that's GG by say turn four. I think it's just too much to commit to. Look at Jund and Abzan - neither of those archetypes play any RR or WW cards (respectively) in the main deck. They're focused on G/B with a splash of their third colors.
Unless you're going for counters (it's no secret that I'm a big fan of spell snare for the upcoming metagame) I don't see many reasons to include blue outside of main deck Snapcaster and sideboard options. Something like Hoogland's idea maybe? I'll be trying something like this:
in a 'big' sultai list, id play the first tasigur before the first angler. especially without a high enough density of delve enablers. even in jund traverse/DS delve threats see little to no play because of the conflict with goyf. a few non-scour cantrips wont change that.
anyone have plans to try out a sultai DS shell? im planning on borrowing a good number of GBx cards, and its something that id like to try out, but i really suck at building decks from scratch.
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IMHO the Anglers are not needed in this list. Exchange the Thought Scour for a 24th land and play Tireless Tracker instead of Angler. In a deck with 3x JTMS you're not obviously not committing to closing games quickly so why not include another card advantage engine?
I am not really interested in cutting on a fast clock. Its actually something what I am aiming for. Otherwise I would just be better off playing UW Control with Jace. I have Tracker in the SB which allows me to hedge against GY hate and slow my deck down to grind a little more. Against Combo and Big Mana you still want a fast clock, this is a fundamental aspect of any midrange deck. If you want to beat those decks, you gotta have a fast clock.
Personally I also think you've got too many colored Mana symbols of all three different colors. You want U or B available turn one, then both B & G on turn two, then UU on turn four, and by the time you drop Scooze you want at least one extra G to use him right away so that's GG by say turn four. I think it's just too much to commit to. Look at Jund and Abzan - neither of those archetypes play any RR or WW cards (respectively) in the main deck. They're focused on G/B with a splash of their third colors.
I am always very cautious about my landbase and mana requirements. I take that very seriously. With my manabase and taking into account the cantrips I have in the deck (4 cantrips = 1 land of any colour) I have 20 black sources, which is enough to consistantly grant double black on turn 3 for a LtLH and if you exclude the mires and tar pits I still got 16 sources (the cantrip effect is also excluded here obviously) for a turn 1 discard spell or Push. I have 18 blue sources which is sufficient to have double blue for a turn 4 Jace if needed. Also by excluding the tar pits and the cantrip effect I have 15 blue sources to grant blue on turn 1. Lastly, I have 15 green sources to grant turn 2 green, which is also sufficient. This deck is essentially a dimir based one which splashes for Goyf and Trophy as well as Ooze. Overall this works fine, with the only exception being that Ooze probably could be supported a little bit better. This is the only hair in the soup concerning mana sources. The manabase is always based on the scientific approach of Frank Karsten's articles. Therefore I am pretty confidant about that. That being said, Jund can absolutely play double red spells, there was a time where Chandras have seen play, or Pia and Kiran Nalaar or just Anger of the Gods in the SB.
To add, I am basing this list a little bit on the UB Midrange list jaberwocki plays to good success in Modo leagues. This version just wants to splash green for goyfs and trophies mostly. If I'll keep the Ooze in general is something I will see. Also depending on the performance of Angler and Thought Scour I might change that around a little.
i think its worth considering a 1-1 tasigur/angler split. i know you want a good clock, but you are low on delve enablers; which sort of defeats the purpose of deploying them early to pressure a non-interactive opponent. also, since you are going bigger you can realistically expect to activate the ability occasionally.
3 jaces seems like a bit much imo. ive played with him a good bit in both jeskai and UW, and even in UW miracles where terminus is a large feature; the 3rd jace is a point of division between top performing lists. not sure what you would use that slot for, but i just wanted to bring it up.
as for the sideboard, i think you can swap out the 2nd ceremonious rejection for another piece of generic counter magic (another c-squall, negate, d-stroke, etc). i think that would give you a pinch more ammo against more decks without sacrificing much (other counterspells can counter colorless/artifacts just fine).
lastly i think your list is particularly well situated for jace, vryn's prodigy. not to replace snaps outright(blasphemy!), but maybe as a 1-2 of if you can find space. you are already presenting a sizeable creature suite, so he wouldnt be a pitiful removal magnet like he is in control lists.
edit: oh yeah. i know you take pride in meticulously crafting your mana base, but is the twilight mire really needed? looks like a holdover from all your junding lol
in a 'big' sultai list, id play the first tasigur before the first angler. especially without a high enough density of delve enablers. even in jund traverse/DS delve threats see little to no play because of the conflict with goyf. a few non-scour cantrips wont change that.
anyone have plans to try out a sultai DS shell? im planning on borrowing a good number of GBx cards, and its something that id like to try out, but i really suck at building decks from scratch.
I've been messing around with Sultai DS but I still feel like you need red for TBR main and Abrade SB. Those cards are so important for humans and Spirits (DS worst match-ups IMO) that I don't think I could drop red entirely until the metagame shifts away from those go-wide green decks. I love what blue offers to DS, mostly Stubborn and Snapcaster but there other great options as well. Delay has been the second best addition from blue for me, after Stubborn denial.
A guy I've played against a couple PPTQs runs full Sultai DS (no red) and plays a single Tombstalker as his only delve creature. It seems pretty sexy but I Dismembered it before it could ever attack me. Traverse is the main reason delve doesn't work in the BGx DS decks, but only having one delve card seems not so bad. The flying would be super relevant in a lot of matches
i think its worth considering a 1-1 tasigur/angler split. i know you want a good clock, but you are low on delve enablers; which sort of defeats the purpose of deploying them early to pressure a non-interactive opponent. also, since you are going bigger you can realistically expect to activate the ability occasionally.
3 jaces seems like a bit much imo. ive played with him a good bit in both jeskai and UW, and even in UW miracles where terminus is a large feature; the 3rd jace is a point of division between top performing lists. not sure what you would use that slot for, but i just wanted to bring it up.
as for the sideboard, i think you can swap out the 2nd ceremonious rejection for another piece of generic counter magic (another c-squall, negate, d-stroke, etc). i think that would give you a pinch more ammo against more decks without sacrificing much (other counterspells can counter colorless/artifacts just fine).
lastly i think your list is particularly well situated for jace, vryn's prodigy. not to replace snaps outright(blasphemy!), but maybe as a 1-2 of if you can find space. you are already presenting a sizeable creature suite, so he wouldnt be a pitiful removal magnet like he is in control lists.
edit: oh yeah. i know you take pride in meticulously crafting your mana base, but is the twilight mire really needed? looks like a holdover from all your junding lol
I appreciate your thoughts!
I definitely keep Tasigur in mind. I know the activated ability really helps grindind, but I am not sure whether the extra attack is just more needed or not. Like if you only have one delve threat as clock, angler only theoretically needs 4 turns to kill an opponent, whereas tasigur needs 5. However, as it stands now, I probably will include another Thought Scour in the future, which helps with delve a little bit more. I just want to make sure that I am not completely susceptible to GY hate. This also of course could mean I need some different threat like Trackers in the main.
3 Jaces certainly could be too many. This has to be tested going forward.
Rejection is a little bit narrow, true, but I right now want a clean counter for KCI and Affinity variants. The other counters do not counter artifact creatures, which bothers me a little. I will look into those matchups and see if I really need them or if other counters would be sufficient.
I thought about baby jace as well, actually by eyes right now are now on the Oozes, since they kinda feel underperforming for me at the moment. I might need to reshape my GY hate due to that though. However, I could run 1-2 Jaces there.
The Twilight Mire should help to make Oozes better as well as helping with turn 3 LtLH. Overall, if I keep Oozes I think its worth it to also keep Mire, but I think its an easy cut if you exclude Oozes.
I've been messing around with Sultai DS but I still feel like you need red for TBR main and Abrade SB. Those cards are so important for humans and Spirits (DS worst match-ups IMO) that I don't think I could drop red entirely until the metagame shifts away from those go-wide green decks. I love what blue offers to DS, mostly Stubborn and Snapcaster but there other great options as well. Delay has been the second best addition from blue for me, after Stubborn denial.
A guy I've played against a couple PPTQs runs full Sultai DS (no red) and plays a single Tombstalker as his only delve creature. It seems pretty sexy but I Dismembered it before it could ever attack me. Traverse is the main reason delve doesn't work in the BGx DS decks, but only having one delve card seems not so bad. The flying would be super relevant in a lot of matches
yeah ive been really thinking of how to get around the problem of the ground getting gummed up by chump blockers. the first obvious solution is to have a red shock somewhere in the 75, and play TBR in the matchups you need it. losing abrade is whatever, we get to play with a 2 mana vindicate
i next thought of leaning harder on grim flayer's trample and just use some generic pump spell. if you can delve for become immense, and still somehow keep delirium; thats a nice 10-ball to the opponent.
lastly there are quite a few 'less than optimal' spells and enchantments to punch through blockers. rancor is probably the highest power level of the options ive seen, but even that seems...poor.
the more indirect solution is to just kill everything on the other side of the table lol. the cheap black sweepers arent that great though. the ones that would leave our creatures alive anyways.
even with all that, you are only really getting half the utility of TBR; which also just burst kills opponents regardless of a clear board. double strike is overpowered!
i hadnt thought of tombstalker (forgot it was even modern legal). i could see running it as a 1-of.
as for the delve vs. traverse/delirium problem, im thinking a split of thought scours and architects of will could help with that. i know BGx DS has always had access to architects, but thoughtscour is something only for sultai. pity none of the surveil cards from GRN look very useful.
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The Twilight Mire should help to make Oozes better as well as helping with turn 3 LtLH. Overall, if I keep Oozes I think its worth it to also keep Mire, but I think its an easy cut if you exclude Oozes.
The awkward thing I see with Twilight (it's happened to me) is this: Twilight Mire is one of your first three lands and you want to drop Scooze on turn 3 with G up to use him if needed, but Twilight doesn't really help with that if it's your only green source unless you plan on using the G right away. It does help with casting the BB spells though so it's probably still worth it.
I've been messing around with Sultai DS but I still feel like you need red for TBR main and Abrade SB. Those cards are so important for humans and Spirits (DS worst match-ups IMO) that I don't think I could drop red entirely until the metagame shifts away from those go-wide green decks. I love what blue offers to DS, mostly Stubborn and Snapcaster but there other great options as well. Delay has been the second best addition from blue for me, after Stubborn denial.
A guy I've played against a couple PPTQs runs full Sultai DS (no red) and plays a single Tombstalker as his only delve creature. It seems pretty sexy but I Dismembered it before it could ever attack me. Traverse is the main reason delve doesn't work in the BGx DS decks, but only having one delve card seems not so bad. The flying would be super relevant in a lot of matches
yeah ive been really thinking of how to get around the problem of the ground getting gummed up by chump blockers. the first obvious solution is to have a red shock somewhere in the 75, and play TBR in the matchups you need it. losing abrade is whatever, we get to play with a 2 mana vindicate
i next thought of leaning harder on grim flayer's trample and just use some generic pump spell. if you can delve for become immense, and still somehow keep delirium; thats a nice 10-ball to the opponent.
lastly there are quite a few 'less than optimal' spells and enchantments to punch through blockers. rancor is probably the highest power level of the options ive seen, but even that seems...poor.
the more indirect solution is to just kill everything on the other side of the table lol. the cheap black sweepers arent that great though. the ones that would leave our creatures alive anyways.
even with all that, you are only really getting half the utility of TBR; which also just burst kills opponents regardless of a clear board. double strike is overpowered!
i hadnt thought of tombstalker (forgot it was even modern legal). i could see running it as a 1-of.
as for the delve vs. traverse/delirium problem, im thinking a split of thought scours and architects of will could help with that. i know BGx DS has always had access to architects, but thoughtscour is something only for sultai. pity none of the surveil cards from GRN look very useful.
I like Abrade more than Trophy against Spirits TBH. Maybe against humans it's better but against Spirits I really don't want to be ramping them into a Coco.
That being said, the ability to cut the 4th color is very interesting and I'd love to start working on something. I was trying out Noble Hierarch in the deck as well but I'm not sure that she's worth it. Let's discuss what the core of a Sultai DS mid-range list would be:
This leaves us with about 4-6 slots to play with, depending on what numbers you choose on my variables here. Another spicy card this Sultai DS player used was Predator's Strike which seems underwhelming on its own but maybe paired with Become Immense it could be the answer?
Another thing is missing out on red sweepers out of the SB. I really like Languish in this metagame but I don't know if we can support cmc 4 with all the Thalia's running around. Even some Spirits lists run her.
I did think about the state of Sultai as well with Trophy and especially Unmoored Ego being printed soon. I think it has to look very streamlined and similar to a typical Jund/Abzan build (where I come from obviously).
You got 20 black sources which is enough for turn 3 LtLH, you got 17 blue sources which is sufficient for turn 4 jace (if you account the cantrips as well it basically adds up to 18 sources, which is enough to have double blue on turn 4) and you got 13 green sources enough to have turn 2 green.
-3 Gurmag
+1 Tasigur
+2 Tracker.
Gurmag angler doesnt make sense to run here.
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-Cast your final spell to flip Thing and with the return trigger on the stack, they flash in Snapcaster, flashback something to remove our Thing (Path or Push), then the bounce trigger resolves and they get their Snapcaster back.
-They flash in Reflector mage with AEther Vial while Thing's bounce trigger is on the stack. Trigger resolves and they get Reflector back.
-You're forced to flip Thing while you have Tasigur down and you must delve again to cast him again. Not too worried about this but it can & will happen
Draft My Cube!
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Tireless Tracker
Instants:
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Assassin's Trophy
2 Countersquall
2 Cryptic Command
4 Fatal Push
1 Spell Snare
4 Thought Scour
Sorceries:
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Lands:
1 Breeding Pool
1 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Field of Ruin
1 Forest
3 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Damnation
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flaying Tendrils
3 Nature's Claim
2 Pulse of Murasa
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thragtusk
1 Unmoored Ego
The deck plays a lot like a Grixis deck but leans into green instead of red, so I've used the same fundamentals. The Angler might be replaced with a Tombstalker since the deck feels a bit soft against opposing flyers, but it's still something that needs testing.
Which brings up a good point I thought of when first looking at the spoilers. Will Assassin's Trophy get banned a la DRS? I realize this is not the forum to discuss this so I'll drop it we that.
For now, I'm certainly planning on playing at least 3-4 in all my decks. Trophy plus Unmoored Ego certainly creates legacy BUG feel for this deck. If only we had some of the creatures they do (Shardless, True Name, Strix) but we've got our own value engines in Snapcaster and Tracker.
I like the list posted with creatures as 4 Tarmogoyf, 4 Snapcaster, 2 Ooze, 3 Tracker. That seems like a solid place to start. I think I'll try something like that with a PW package of: 2 LOTV, 1 JTMS, 1 LTLH
Draft My Cube!
First of all, there are established BUG lists to build off of that are streamlined.
Second, Think in the Ice means you cannot really play things like Tarmogoyf, Grim Flayer, Tireless Tracker, or Scavenging Ooze without reseting your own board at no value for a mere flip on Thing in the Ice - in a set of colors that has a plethora of removal spells at its disposal. Your game gets pushed more towards instant speed play and creatures like Snapcaster Mage or Vendilion Clique and at that point, why are you even in green?
Sultai Midrange, using previously establishes lists, don't have issues with the decks you listed for a reason to run Thing in the Ice. If you are having issues with them, it is more than likely a result of inefficient operations from the pilot (or greedy/bad lists).
Affinity can be trouble sometimes, but you can fix that with boarding options pretty easily. Hollowed ones end up just running into Goyfs in the mid and late game. You can wall them pretty hard if you focus on the long game. As for Boggles, lists running Spreading Seas were incredibly favored in the match, and with access to Assassin's Trophy you can advance the same game plan without Spreading Seas. They have 2 basics to search for and few lands to redraw.
All that isn't even mentioning how bad of a card it is in general and how many actual interaction points with it exist in the current Modern format climate.
I don't expect it to get banned. It has been no secret that BG Midrange decks have been pushed out of the format entirely by Tron decks and it is pretty clear that this card was meant to address decks like Tron. I have a hard time imagining this card is anything but what they wanted it to be.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Isochron Scepter: There are SEVERAL additions that work well on the stick from GRN. Mausoleum Secrets, Mission Briefing, and Assassin's Trophy are all incredible as well as Mana Leak, Remand, and Abrupt Decay. Thing in the Ice would make a great addition as well in this type of shell.
Charnel Troll: This is an easy addition to any Traverse list with Architects of Will and Street Wraith keeping it fueled and cycling through your deck. The troll feels like a Goblin Rabblemaster with evasion and a much bigger butt. It also helps a midrange deck "turn the corner" and finish an opponent off relatively quickly for little mana investment. It can be protected with Stubborn Denial as well. I feel like this idea definitely warrants testing.
Mausoleum Secrets: A 2 mana tutor that can get a variety of different types of cards needs to be considered. It feels like Traverse, requiring some minor set-up, but can become very valuable mid to late game due to it's versatility, finding a creature, removal, or discard, whatever you need to keep the game plan going and can easily be snapped as well.
Glissa, The Traitor: Dimir was noticeably missing a very important reprint... Baleful Strix (Yes, I'm bitter, lol) But that aside, Executioner's Capsule and Glissa are fetch-able with Mausoleum Secrets. Other great card interactions include Engineered Explosives, Mishra's Bauble, and Walking Ballista. All these cards are great on their own but can be incredible with a Glissa on the field.
Again, this post is merely to put some ideas on the table to brainstorm and possibly inspire some successful brewing. Hope it helps!
Cheers!
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
So I think I will start testing this:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
4 Darkslick Shores
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Gurmag Angler
2 Scavenging Ooze
Noncreature Spells [25]
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Fatal Push
4 Opt
1 Thought Scour
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Unmoored Ego
2 Collective Brutality
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Countersquall
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Damnation
2 Tireless Tracker
You got 20 black sources which is enough for turn 3 LtLH, you got 17 blue sources which is sufficient for turn 4 jace (if you account the cantrips as well it basically adds up to 18 sources, which is enough to have double blue on turn 4) and you got 13 green sources enough to have turn 2 green.
Gurmag + Snapcaster + Liliana, the Last Hope seems counter intuitive. Liliana has you wanting to consume spells from the GY with Gurmag delving, but Snapcaster wants you leaving spells in and delving lands and creatures. In my experience, you give Relic of Progenitus a lot of leeway whne you thin out your yard like that.
With Unmoored Ego being legal, is Ceremonious Rejection still a thing? I feel like Damping Sphere stops Tron but overlaps vs Storm decks as well as the random creature spammy decks like Elves.
About the only criticism I have.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
Rejection is imo still needed for Hardened Scales. Ego is also not an autowin vs KCI, where Rejection does still help.
-1 Angler, +1 CB
-1 Darkslick, +1 Bontanical Sanctum
-1 Rejection, +1 Engineered Explosives
EDIT:
With this list, I plan on the following SB plans for the most important matchups:
Humans:
-2 TS
-2 Jace
-1 Gurmag
+1 Damnation
+1 EE
+1 Tendrils
+2 CB
Burn:
-2 TS
-2 LtLH
-1 Jace
+2 CB
+1 Countersquall
+1 Tendrils
+1 EE
UW Control:
-4 Push
-2 Gurmag
-1 Thought Scour
+2 CB
+1 Countersquall
+2 Tracker
+2 Unmoored Ego
Hardened Scales:
-2 Gurmag
-1 Jace
-2 TS (OTD)
-1 CB (OTP)
-1 Thought Scour (OTP)
+1 Damnation
+1 EE
+1 Tendrils
+2 Rejection
Tron:
-4 Push
-2 LtLH
+2 Rejection
+1 Countersquall
+1 Surgical
+2 Unmoored Ego
Hollow One:
-4 Opt
-2 Jace
-1 Push
+2 Spellbomb
+1 Surgical
+2 CB
+1 Tendrils
+1 Damnation
Bant Spirits:
-2 Gurmag
-2 Jace
-1 Thought Scour
+2 CB
+1 Tendrils
+1 Damnation
+1 EE
Storm:
-3 Jace
-2 LtLH
-4 Trophies
-1 Opt
+2 Spellbomb
+1 Surgical
+2 Unmoored Ego
+1 Tendrils
+1 EE
+2 CB
+1 Countersquall
GBx:
-4 IOK
-2 TS
+2 Tracker
+2 Spellbomb
+1 Damnation
+1 CB
Personally I also think you've got too many colored Mana symbols of all three different colors. You want U or B available turn one, then both B & G on turn two, then UU on turn four, and by the time you drop Scooze you want at least one extra G to use him right away so that's GG by say turn four. I think it's just too much to commit to. Look at Jund and Abzan - neither of those archetypes play any RR or WW cards (respectively) in the main deck. They're focused on G/B with a splash of their third colors.
Unless you're going for counters (it's no secret that I'm a big fan of spell snare for the upcoming metagame) I don't see many reasons to include blue outside of main deck Snapcaster and sideboard options. Something like Hoogland's idea maybe? I'll be trying something like this:
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Snapcaster mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tireless Tracker
Spells (17)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Assassin's Trophy
3 Fatal Push
1 Abrupt decay
2 Spell Snare
Other (7)
3 Liliana of the veil
1 Liliana, the last hope
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Search for Azcanta
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Treetop Village
1 Creeping tar pit
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
3 Unmoored Ego
1 Disdainful Stroke
2 Collective Brutality
1 Languish
1 Flaying tendrils
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Abrupt decay
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Obstinate Baloth
Draft My Cube!
anyone have plans to try out a sultai DS shell? im planning on borrowing a good number of GBx cards, and its something that id like to try out, but i really suck at building decks from scratch.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)To recap, here is the updated list:
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Darkslick Shores
1 Botanical Sanctum
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
2 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Gurmag Angler
Noncreature Spells [26]
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Opt
4 Fatal Push
1 Thought Scour
4 Assassin's Trophy
1 Collective Brutality
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana, the Last Hope
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Unmoored Ego
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Countersquall
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Collective Brutality
To add, I am basing this list a little bit on the UB Midrange list jaberwocki plays to good success in Modo leagues. This version just wants to splash green for goyfs and trophies mostly. If I'll keep the Ooze in general is something I will see. Also depending on the performance of Angler and Thought Scour I might change that around a little.
3 jaces seems like a bit much imo. ive played with him a good bit in both jeskai and UW, and even in UW miracles where terminus is a large feature; the 3rd jace is a point of division between top performing lists. not sure what you would use that slot for, but i just wanted to bring it up.
as for the sideboard, i think you can swap out the 2nd ceremonious rejection for another piece of generic counter magic (another c-squall, negate, d-stroke, etc). i think that would give you a pinch more ammo against more decks without sacrificing much (other counterspells can counter colorless/artifacts just fine).
lastly i think your list is particularly well situated for jace, vryn's prodigy. not to replace snaps outright(blasphemy!), but maybe as a 1-2 of if you can find space. you are already presenting a sizeable creature suite, so he wouldnt be a pitiful removal magnet like he is in control lists.
edit: oh yeah. i know you take pride in meticulously crafting your mana base, but is the twilight mire really needed? looks like a holdover from all your junding lol
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)I've been messing around with Sultai DS but I still feel like you need red for TBR main and Abrade SB. Those cards are so important for humans and Spirits (DS worst match-ups IMO) that I don't think I could drop red entirely until the metagame shifts away from those go-wide green decks. I love what blue offers to DS, mostly Stubborn and Snapcaster but there other great options as well. Delay has been the second best addition from blue for me, after Stubborn denial.
A guy I've played against a couple PPTQs runs full Sultai DS (no red) and plays a single Tombstalker as his only delve creature. It seems pretty sexy but I Dismembered it before it could ever attack me. Traverse is the main reason delve doesn't work in the BGx DS decks, but only having one delve card seems not so bad. The flying would be super relevant in a lot of matches
Draft My Cube!
I appreciate your thoughts!
I definitely keep Tasigur in mind. I know the activated ability really helps grindind, but I am not sure whether the extra attack is just more needed or not. Like if you only have one delve threat as clock, angler only theoretically needs 4 turns to kill an opponent, whereas tasigur needs 5. However, as it stands now, I probably will include another Thought Scour in the future, which helps with delve a little bit more. I just want to make sure that I am not completely susceptible to GY hate. This also of course could mean I need some different threat like Trackers in the main.
3 Jaces certainly could be too many. This has to be tested going forward.
Rejection is a little bit narrow, true, but I right now want a clean counter for KCI and Affinity variants. The other counters do not counter artifact creatures, which bothers me a little. I will look into those matchups and see if I really need them or if other counters would be sufficient.
I thought about baby jace as well, actually by eyes right now are now on the Oozes, since they kinda feel underperforming for me at the moment. I might need to reshape my GY hate due to that though. However, I could run 1-2 Jaces there.
The Twilight Mire should help to make Oozes better as well as helping with turn 3 LtLH. Overall, if I keep Oozes I think its worth it to also keep Mire, but I think its an easy cut if you exclude Oozes.
yeah ive been really thinking of how to get around the problem of the ground getting gummed up by chump blockers. the first obvious solution is to have a red shock somewhere in the 75, and play TBR in the matchups you need it. losing abrade is whatever, we get to play with a 2 mana vindicate
i next thought of leaning harder on grim flayer's trample and just use some generic pump spell. if you can delve for become immense, and still somehow keep delirium; thats a nice 10-ball to the opponent.
lastly there are quite a few 'less than optimal' spells and enchantments to punch through blockers. rancor is probably the highest power level of the options ive seen, but even that seems...poor.
the more indirect solution is to just kill everything on the other side of the table lol. the cheap black sweepers arent that great though. the ones that would leave our creatures alive anyways.
even with all that, you are only really getting half the utility of TBR; which also just burst kills opponents regardless of a clear board. double strike is overpowered!
i hadnt thought of tombstalker (forgot it was even modern legal). i could see running it as a 1-of.
as for the delve vs. traverse/delirium problem, im thinking a split of thought scours and architects of will could help with that. i know BGx DS has always had access to architects, but thoughtscour is something only for sultai. pity none of the surveil cards from GRN look very useful.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)The awkward thing I see with Twilight (it's happened to me) is this: Twilight Mire is one of your first three lands and you want to drop Scooze on turn 3 with G up to use him if needed, but Twilight doesn't really help with that if it's your only green source unless you plan on using the G right away. It does help with casting the BB spells though so it's probably still worth it.
I like Abrade more than Trophy against Spirits TBH. Maybe against humans it's better but against Spirits I really don't want to be ramping them into a Coco.
That being said, the ability to cut the 4th color is very interesting and I'd love to start working on something. I was trying out Noble Hierarch in the deck as well but I'm not sure that she's worth it. Let's discuss what the core of a Sultai DS mid-range list would be:
4 Death's Shadow
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Street Wraith
1 Snapcaster mage (up to 2)
Spells
4 Mishra's Bauble
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek (up to 4)
2 Traverse the Ulvenwald (up to 3)
3 Stubborn denial
1 Liliana of the veil (up to 3)
1 Liliana, the last hope
3 Fatal Push (up to 4)
2 Assassin's Trophy (up to 3)
1 Abrupt decay
1 Dismember (up to 2)
18 Lands
This leaves us with about 4-6 slots to play with, depending on what numbers you choose on my variables here. Another spicy card this Sultai DS player used was Predator's Strike which seems underwhelming on its own but maybe paired with Become Immense it could be the answer?
Another thing is missing out on red sweepers out of the SB. I really like Languish in this metagame but I don't know if we can support cmc 4 with all the Thalia's running around. Even some Spirits lists run her.
Draft My Cube!
-3 Gurmag
+1 Tasigur
+2 Tracker.
Gurmag angler doesnt make sense to run here.