Moved the thread to the midrange section and renamed it from "Control" to "Midrange". Also if someone can step up and make a primer for the thread shoot me a PM and we can see what can be arranged.
I have been working on a primer for the archetype over the last week (been a bit busy). I will PM you when it is ready.
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STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
So as a GBx midrange deck how does the blue play out compared to red and white? I really want sultai to be a thing but its a tough sell when blue seems to offer so little compared to bolt/BBE/command or souls/path/sideboard cards.
A list like this has jace and creeping tar pit as the only blue cards in the main, and then disdainful strokes and countersqualls in the board
So as a GBx midrange deck how does the blue play out compared to red and white? I really want sultai to be a thing but its a tough sell when blue seems to offer so little compared to bolt/BBE/command or souls/path/sideboard cards.
A list like this has jace and creeping tar pit as the only blue cards in the main, and then disdainful strokes and countersqualls in the board
Is that really effective or would he have just been worse off than doing BBE or souls?
I feel like Sultai needs to come up with its own identity. It's not about trying to be a GBX deck that features the best cards of the splash color. That strategy has proven that it doesn't work. Otherwise, we would be a top tier deck by now. I think if we're going to be competitive in this meta, we need to come up with our own strategy that is unique to our color combination. Maybe it's attrition with card advantage and cantrips, maybe it's something more obvious or something more subtle. I definitely don't have the answer yet about what that should be, but I'm working on it. It might simply be something obvious like Snapcaster Mage and JtMS, or maybe something more obscure like a Glimpse the Unthinkable strategy. Regardless, we need to be openminded to ideas. I do think a Glissa, the Traitor shell is also possible. We'll get there eventually. I do think Muldrotha, the Gravetide as well as Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp are potential cards for inclusion in the right shells.
I was with you up until the last 2. The number of 6 drops that are playable in modern is extremely low and belong in ramp strategies (primeval titan and wurmcoil engine? You can't count discounted cards like reveler/angler). There is no way muldrotha is modern playable. And the Djinn is a vanilla 5/6 for 4. The number of vanilla bodies that see play in modern pretty much starts and stops with tarmogoyf.
Agree on the rest about sultai needing an identity so it isn't just a worse bgx. I find specifically that UG lacks a good multicolored card that would make the combination more interesting - there is just no UG equivalent to lingering souls, lightning helix, electrolyze, geist of st traft/supreme verdict, etc and modern could really use one because UG doesnt see much play outside of infect and now I guess some merfolk decks, and I suppose you could count scapeshift. Notably none of these are midrange/control type decks looking to just play strong cards with microsynergies. And the decks that are UG don't really play actual UG cards.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I hesitate to jump in here because I've not participated here, but it seems like a decent time and if the list is looking for a new identity then Ramp + Filter might be a decent direction. I've got a few things in that vein I'd like to try and am wondering what people think of the idea.
If that's attractive to people, I'm looking at a few routes:
Go T1 ramp into 3cmc plays; this relies on creatures like BoP.
Go T2 ramp into 4cmc plays; this can come in many forms, but can avoid x/1 flimsy creatures to focus on ramp through lands.
What to do with that is really up to us to figure out.
I don't necessarily agree with the fact that Sultai needs to set itself apart from other BGx strategies by changing the core of cards it uses. We have seen multiple lists see success since the unbanning, and from a competitive standpoint - there really is not much to gain by straying away from that. I do agree that U should offer some tools that you don't get with W or R, but the BG core is where the success has really been found so far. I guess the real question becomes, where does the U derive value from and how can it be nurtured?
Snapcaster Mage is a pretty good example of a card that can define why you would choose U over W or R, and the reason is so that you can utilize an entirely different zone that you do not really get to access too much with the other two colors. My internal debate that that point is: How can you leverage this without exposing yourself to punishing cards like Rest in Peace? From there I suspect it is really just trying to find a balance between utilizing the graveyard without becoming reliant on it.
Additionally, you could just take another approach and look at how blue compliments your BG cards. We saw this in a recent list which placed 11th in the Cincinnati SCG Classic, where the pilot was using Nissa, Steward of Elements and Serum Visions to stack Dark Confidant triggers or peel off 2 drop creatures from the top. Additionally he ran more Planeswalkers than you would get in Jund or Abzan, which gave the deck more of a control element with an angle that can be harder to interact with when creatures gum up the board. He even included Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver in the SB.
So I do not think the deck really needs to deviate much from the traditional BGx shell in order to give it an identity of its own. The blue puzzle, when solved correctly, will give it an identity of its own.
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STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
I played a few matches with this but overall I lost to aggro pretty badly if I drew the wrong side of my deck. I found I had to choose to tap out to put a threat on the board early or hold up mana to be reactionary. Probably just my inexperience with BGx decks but found it especially difficult with Snaps. There were a few situations where I probably should have Snap/IOK instead of holding up Snap/Push.
The other version I've been trying is with Bobs that I feel more experienced with. Added some Brutalities MB so I can gain life/get value out of dead bobs and discard. Before tweaking this I found I was losing to myself because I couldn't close out games fast enough. Thinking about adding Tireless trackers but not sure what to cut out. I'm just struggling with finding a reason why I would play Sultai over Jund/Abzan with this version. If Jace lives, I'm probably already winning and serum visions is pretty meh.
I like the direction youre going with this, ive a couple thoughts for you though.
Not running counters (main board, anyway) is a fairly common acceptance amongst Sultai brewers, especially while running LotV. The exception to that is Stubborn Denial. If youre going the delve route anyway, then all of your creatures except snaps (and baby jace, if u run him) qualify ferocious. Something to consider, as it hits most of the things yould be worried about.
On the note of delve and graveyard plays, i submit Architects of Will as an alternative to mishra's bauble. I admit that 1 mana (for the cycle) is a lot more than zero, and doesnt trigger revolt, but instant speed pumping goyf and flayer is not to br underestimated. It provides 2 card types at once to boot. And even on baubles best day, it cant be cast as a creature (attrition games end up in some crazy spots sometimes).
My final offering is a replacement for Go for the Throat in your second build. Having unconditional removal at 2 mana is important for rock builds, and Dominaria has gifted us Cast Down. The prerequisite condition of non legendary seems less likely to be an issue that having dead cards against affinity, though not hitting tasigur or ezuri should be considered.
Anyway, thanks for deck lists, please report any fnms or tourneys you go to. Happy brewing!
For the delirium build, I found it to be clunky and a little slow. I found Flayer just died to removal or was outclassed by bigger creatures. I'd also be delving into a Tasigur but didn't have mana to use his ability so I think Gurmag angler is better in this build. Overall in my limited experience I think Abzan is a better shell for delirium BGx. Better hate in the board, more removal in paths and better cards to stall with in Lingering Souls.
The second build on the other hand plays very much like Jund/Abzan, more like Abzan since it's not as aggressive. I found it way weaker than both Jund and Abzan. I don't have the reach of R nor do I have the evasion of Souls/lifegain of Rhino. Once I get to the long game my spells are easily getting outclassed by more powerful spells or the card advantage that control decks have. Again I feel like Jund/Abzan are stronger.
I didn't see your notes until now but they are interesting. I'll incorporate Stubborn denial and Architects of Will to the delirium build if I choose to go back to it. Got around to thinking why would I play blue and the other option is a more traditional control style. Decided to build this and am pretty happy with how it plays so far. My losses were definitely because I usually play a more aggro/midrange mindset of "how do I win the fastest" instead of "how do I not lose each turn". This leans more UB control splashing green for goyfs, abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse. I like it more than straight UB control because I personally like to drop fatties to use as shields and having hard removal.
Match 1 - vs Naya Zoo (but a more combo version with 8 pacts, the red and green ones)
Game 1 - Buried him with hand disruption I dropped a goyf and stonewalled his creatures.
Game 2 - he had the nut draw and I lost turn 3
Game 3 - I didn't play around a path to exile even though I had the Cryptic Command to last another turn (and I knew he played paths). I tapped his creatures and went in with Goyf and Tar pit. He pathed Goyf and swung back for lethal.
Match 2 - MonoW taxes
Game 1 - this was super grindy. I had a great boardstate of Ashiok, Jace and Ltlh emblem out but only 2 life. I should have cast another flyer with Ashiok but I decided to mill him more. Big mistake, he vialed in a flickerwisp on end step and killed me.
Game 2 - I got trapped under Arbiter and Thalia. Couldn't push thalia or arbiter because he kept flickering them and I couldn't muster enough mana to damnation.
Match 3 - Waste not combo
Game 1 - I rip apart his hand and drop some goyfs
Game 2 - his hand was too redundant and got the waste not combo online killing me turn 3
Game 3 - He opens with the black leyline leaving me with 2/3 Goyfs. I play around waste not leaving up abrupt decay/counter magic for it. Surgical extract it and go in for the kill with goyf, snaps and tar pits.
Ashiok was actually mainboard and really liked it. I can see how it's powerful and might leave it MB but I think I might like Azcanta to help smooth out my draws. I'll test some more and try it out but I personally like this build more than the BGu versions. They play like Jund/Abzan but don't have the power level to compete. I really missed the reach/removal from Jund and Souls/Rhino/sideboard from Abzan. The only area I think improves is Tron matchups where I can counter Karns/Ugins.
Lotv would have been good against MonoW taxes but otherwise didn't miss it that much. It's nice not having to live off my top deck ahhaha
As someone that plays Grim Flayer in my list, I would offer up the notion that just because he is in the list does not mean you need him to be delving you into GY options or be a 4/4. He is at his best when you leverage him for setting up draws and using your removal to set up for wider boards with him. I hardly ever use him for graveyard value outside of odd situations after SBing where I am looking to find Fulminator Mage and Liliana, the Last Hope.
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STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
That sounds reasonable. I was super high on Azcanta not too long ago, but things seem to have sped up to the point where it's hard to justify running multiple.
I find it pretty unlikely that jace cunning castaway is playable in modern.
In general sultai midrange needs a blue card that gives you a reason to play it over jund or abzan. Red gives bolt, command, bbe - white path, souls and sideboard hosers. Blue offers card selection and maybe counterspells (which nonbo with lotv and overlap with discard as a universal answer).
Bgx is already grindy and powerful so its tough to see card selection as the thing it needs. Thought scour is interesting for powering up goyfs and flayers, but again is it really necesary? Goyf gets to 4/5 pretty easily without any help as it is.
Imo modern needs a simic card on the level of decay, helix, kcommand, lingering souls to give you a real reason to play the sultai wedge. But really any blue card with big bgx synergy would do the trick too. Stubborn denial is close with goyfs and death shadows.
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Modern
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
What sultai needed to be playable was a good removal and Cast Down is overperforming in my test.
I agree. I just added a second copy in my lists, removing an Abrupt Decay, which hasn't been too impressive as of late. I think we still want at least one moving forward.
As far as a playable BUG list right now, don't sleep on BUG Delirium either. Creating massive Tarmogoyfs is a great way to stonewall Thought-Knot Seers, Reality Smashers, Gurmag Anglers, Tasigurs, and Hollow Ones, while also racing the smaller creature decks. Plus, we have Grim Flayer as an additional clock that sets up our draws. He's been easier to connect with now that we have better removal for the previously mentioned threats, and in a delirium build, he's a 4/4 most of the time.
Finally got to play again tonight with Sultai control with some minor changes. Overall it feels good but haven't played anything super aggressive yet. Not much to report. Search for Azcanta might get removed for maybe 2x JVP, especially if I keep the Nissa. Just feels awkward keeping it in hand when there's better things to cast. I also find that I can hide behind cryptics/goyfs and fate seal my way to victory instead of brainstorming to death.
MB
-1 damnation
+1 Nissa, steward of elements
SB
+1 damping sphere (want 2 but havent had a chance to pick it up)
+1 damnation
-1 nihil spellbomb
-1 ashiok
Round 1 vs Bant counters company
Game 1: he couldn't get past a goyf and I couldn't deal with the knight of reliquary. He managed to get a bunch of creatures out and went wide while I just drew lands.
Game 2: I was about to win this game but game 1 took so long that I gave him the win since he's a friend and I wasn't going to make it through to game 3
0-1
Round 2 vs waste not
Game 1: held up removal/counters for waste not/Liliana's caress and beat in with goyfs and ulted Nissa
Game 2: held up removal/counters for waste not/Liliana's caress and ulted a Jace
1-1
Round 3 vs eldrazi taxes
Game 1: Damnation + Jace fate seal + goyf = GG
Game 2: he was mana screwed, I landed a Jace and made sure he couldn't draw more lands. Ulted Jace.
2-1 overall
What sultai needed to be playable was a good removal and Cast Down is overperforming in my test.
I agree. I just added a second copy in my lists, removing an Abrupt Decay, which hasn't been too impressive as of late. I think we still want at least one moving forward.
As far as a playable BUG list right now, don't sleep on BUG Delirium either. Creating massive Tarmogoyfs is a great way to stonewall Thought-Knot Seers, Reality Smashers, Gurmag Anglers, Tasigurs, and Hollow Ones, while also racing the smaller creature decks. Plus, we have Grim Flayer as an additional clock that sets up our draws. He's been easier to connect with now that we have better removal for the previously mentioned threats, and in a delirium build, he's a 4/4 most of the time.
This,
I'm also on a Delirium build and it's certainly a viable strategy. Though, much like BUG midrange, it's far from set in stone.
I agree with the Search for Azcanta assesment in that it's not great in this deck, unflipped it's good for Delirium and filtering but it has no use flipped. In midrange this get's better but nowhere near as efficient as in pure draw-go decks,
I feel there is a lot more action going on in this topic, Could Delirium and Midrange possibly be fused into one topic? (Like abzan) since at the base, both decks use the same BGx midrange shell.
-The Manabase, feels somewhat suboptimal wouldn't necessarily say inconsistent just a bit rough. I'm sure its just a need for UUUCryptic and potential turn 3 V-Cliquebut also wanting to hit BB to be able to cast multiple removal spells and potential Turn 3 LTLH and also GG to try to get value out of Scooze should he hit the board. Most times it doesn't really affect anything as I just fetch extra green later, but still sketchy to me.
-2 Spell Snare is probably one too many, but I love it against pretty much everything that isn't RG Ponza or Eldrazi or Tron. Still probably wouldn't mind shaving down to 1, but if I did shave it down to 1-of I would want to replace it with another 1-drop. Possibly Disfigure as its great against aggro, kills BBE without having to turn on revolt and can shrink down bigger creatures on turn 3 if our Goyf isn't big enough yet.
-1-of Censor probably seems out of place, but I personally love it and its overperformed for me in my testing last night as it actually countered a turn 3 Reality Smasher game 1 and game 2 cycled to find me land 4 to cryptic tap/draw on my opponents next turn to follow up Damnation against them. Also the 1-of Opt probably also seems out of place, but I really want to add more 1-drops but DON'T want to play hand disruption main.
-I talked to a close friend and old testing buddy who plays JUND and he reaffirmed my fear that I may be running too little life-gain main to make Bitterblossom worth it. I agreed, but told him I wasn't sure what to play for life-gain main outside of Scooze and CB as I didn't want to get too Janky, but I didn't want to increase the mana curve too much. I considered Finks, but didn't really want to HAVE to commit to GG on turn 3 as well. I was going back and forth on a singelton Pulse of Murasa as it will guarantee we hit land drop four for crucial turn 4 Cryptics/JTMS if we have to or turn 4 Damnation or buying back Snap or other value while also gaining me six life, However I think it truly will come down to putting one or two Swaggy T into the Main deck
-Speaking of Bitterblossom I replaced Search For Azcanta with it after I decided to give it a try to help the humans matchup, mainly, while also having splash damage vs other Midrange/Control strategies and in testing it seems to perform well enough to warrant more testing. It's especially good against their slower more manageable hands. I look at it as trading 1-life for 3+ dmg and I added it up over a course of a game it effectively cost me 5 life to prevent 14 damage... (Two 4/4 Mantis Rider swings and three 2/3Freebooter swings) I ultimately lost that game, but the blossom definitely bought me time to find the relevant spells I needed... my opponents disruption was just a little consistent and frequent for me to overcome.
-Lastly, THE PERSONIFICATION OF LUKEWARM I WANT THIS CARD TO BE SO GOOD! I LOVE THIS CARD, there are games it has won me games there are also games where it hit nothing but land and my opponent drew all the gas... The high variance dependant on my opponent's deck makes this card feel less good, but the ability to take creatures makes it feel OP... I am always going back and forth on this card but alas I may finally be axing it probably for a copy of CB
In other words my fellow members of the Opulent Palace.... I would like help to improve this list and get some fresh eyes on it....
So far the one day I've had of testing this idea and this deck it pulled a 4-1 finish with the only loss being a PUNT that came from not playing against Ad Naus in probably 2 months and forgetting momentarily that the deck can win with Phyrexian Unlife plus Ad Nauseam as I tapped out on my turn 4 to kill my opponents Pentad Prism to keep him off of Ad Naus mana after he tapped down and only had a single B up after he cast Unlife and he Pact of Negationed my pulse... Spoils to Ad Naus going to -7 in the process and he kills me in his upkeep as I die with Abrupt Decay in hand. I won game 2, and he won game 3 on his turn 4, my turn 3. after double lotus bloom turn 1, double ad naus in hand... top deck Phyrexian Unlife
the 4 wins were against... Mardu Vampires (2-0), BR Demigod of Revenge Deck (2-1), Colorless Eldrazi (2-0) which was an absolute bonkers matchup as game one I stabilized at 1 life with JTMS facing down TKS and Reality Smasher game 1.. i also cast Cryptic 5 times that game... and game 2 i won on the back of double Goyf Thragtusk after blowing up the board with damnation.... and I beat Burn in the last round (2-1) game 1 a turn 3 Collective set me up nicely to win.. game 2 he turn 4'd me... and game 3 I raced with a 5/6 goyf.
@Flippen Salvation nice to see another control build
I really wanted bitterblossom to work but feel like it works better in a less painful UB build. BUG just requires too much fetching up front. And adding lifegain MB just isn't worth it. I even cut scooze because the G requirements are so high when I'd rather be getting UB for Snap/Cryptic/removal. In my brief testing I only splashed G for Goyfs, abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse and found it helped smooth out my mana a lot.
Totally agree that Ashiok is SO GOOD when it's good but totally garbage when it's irrelevant. I've moved Ashiok to SB and it's performed well there.
I'd also replace the spell snare/censor with a manaleak or logic knot. What spells are you scared of that are 2CMC? all I can think of a creatures and with all the MB removal, it should be fine to let it resolve. How has remand been for you? Seems like it would be good because the deck is a little more tempo-y than traditional control.
Clique is good too, I've been trying to find a spot to put it in but would rather have IoK/Thoughtseize lol.
Lastly, why no IoK/Thoughtseize? I found it helps to set up my Serum visions and decision paths of what to counter/kill
I have been working on a primer for the archetype over the last week (been a bit busy). I will PM you when it is ready.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
A list like this has jace and creeping tar pit as the only blue cards in the main, and then disdainful strokes and countersqualls in the board
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/archetype/modern-sultai-46445#paper
Is that really effective or would he have just been worse off than doing BBE or souls?
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
I feel like Sultai needs to come up with its own identity. It's not about trying to be a GBX deck that features the best cards of the splash color. That strategy has proven that it doesn't work. Otherwise, we would be a top tier deck by now. I think if we're going to be competitive in this meta, we need to come up with our own strategy that is unique to our color combination. Maybe it's attrition with card advantage and cantrips, maybe it's something more obvious or something more subtle. I definitely don't have the answer yet about what that should be, but I'm working on it. It might simply be something obvious like Snapcaster Mage and JtMS, or maybe something more obscure like a Glimpse the Unthinkable strategy. Regardless, we need to be openminded to ideas. I do think a Glissa, the Traitor shell is also possible. We'll get there eventually. I do think Muldrotha, the Gravetide as well as Zahid, Djinn of the Lamp are potential cards for inclusion in the right shells.
Keep brewing, we'll get there! cheers!
UWRUWR MidrangeUWR
BUGSultai MidrangeBUG
BUGRTraverse MidrangeBUGR (currently brewing)
Agree on the rest about sultai needing an identity so it isn't just a worse bgx. I find specifically that UG lacks a good multicolored card that would make the combination more interesting - there is just no UG equivalent to lingering souls, lightning helix, electrolyze, geist of st traft/supreme verdict, etc and modern could really use one because UG doesnt see much play outside of infect and now I guess some merfolk decks, and I suppose you could count scapeshift. Notably none of these are midrange/control type decks looking to just play strong cards with microsynergies. And the decks that are UG don't really play actual UG cards.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
If that's attractive to people, I'm looking at a few routes:
What to do with that is really up to us to figure out.
Thoughts? Extreme criticism? Joyous applause?
"Reveal a Dragon"
Snapcaster Mage is a pretty good example of a card that can define why you would choose U over W or R, and the reason is so that you can utilize an entirely different zone that you do not really get to access too much with the other two colors. My internal debate that that point is: How can you leverage this without exposing yourself to punishing cards like Rest in Peace? From there I suspect it is really just trying to find a balance between utilizing the graveyard without becoming reliant on it.
Additionally, you could just take another approach and look at how blue compliments your BG cards. We saw this in a recent list which placed 11th in the Cincinnati SCG Classic, where the pilot was using Nissa, Steward of Elements and Serum Visions to stack Dark Confidant triggers or peel off 2 drop creatures from the top. Additionally he ran more Planeswalkers than you would get in Jund or Abzan, which gave the deck more of a control element with an angle that can be harder to interact with when creatures gum up the board. He even included Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver in the SB.
So I do not think the deck really needs to deviate much from the traditional BGx shell in order to give it an identity of its own. The blue puzzle, when solved correctly, will give it an identity of its own.
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
Instants
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Murderous Cut
4 Thought Scour
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
Creatures
3 Grim Flayer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Artifacts
3 Mishra's Bauble
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Flaying Tendrils
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Nature's Claim
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pulse of Murasa
I played a few matches with this but overall I lost to aggro pretty badly if I drew the wrong side of my deck. I found I had to choose to tap out to put a threat on the board early or hold up mana to be reactionary. Probably just my inexperience with BGx decks but found it especially difficult with Snaps. There were a few situations where I probably should have Snap/IOK instead of holding up Snap/Push.
The other version I've been trying is with Bobs that I feel more experienced with. Added some Brutalities MB so I can gain life/get value out of dead bobs and discard. Before tweaking this I found I was losing to myself because I couldn't close out games fast enough. Thinking about adding Tireless trackers but not sure what to cut out. I'm just struggling with finding a reason why I would play Sultai over Jund/Abzan with this version. If Jace lives, I'm probably already winning and serum visions is pretty meh.
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
3 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Watery Grave
Instants
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
1 Go for the Throat
2 Collective Brutality
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
Creatures
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Collective Brutality
2 Damnation
2 Fulminator Mage
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pulse of Murasa
2 Surgical Extraction
I'm going to put together a more controlly version with no lilis just to get first hand experience on why counters are no good.
Not running counters (main board, anyway) is a fairly common acceptance amongst Sultai brewers, especially while running LotV. The exception to that is Stubborn Denial. If youre going the delve route anyway, then all of your creatures except snaps (and baby jace, if u run him) qualify ferocious. Something to consider, as it hits most of the things yould be worried about.
On the note of delve and graveyard plays, i submit Architects of Will as an alternative to mishra's bauble. I admit that 1 mana (for the cycle) is a lot more than zero, and doesnt trigger revolt, but instant speed pumping goyf and flayer is not to br underestimated. It provides 2 card types at once to boot. And even on baubles best day, it cant be cast as a creature (attrition games end up in some crazy spots sometimes).
My final offering is a replacement for Go for the Throat in your second build. Having unconditional removal at 2 mana is important for rock builds, and Dominaria has gifted us Cast Down. The prerequisite condition of non legendary seems less likely to be an issue that having dead cards against affinity, though not hitting tasigur or ezuri should be considered.
Anyway, thanks for deck lists, please report any fnms or tourneys you go to. Happy brewing!
For the delirium build, I found it to be clunky and a little slow. I found Flayer just died to removal or was outclassed by bigger creatures. I'd also be delving into a Tasigur but didn't have mana to use his ability so I think Gurmag angler is better in this build. Overall in my limited experience I think Abzan is a better shell for delirium BGx. Better hate in the board, more removal in paths and better cards to stall with in Lingering Souls.
The second build on the other hand plays very much like Jund/Abzan, more like Abzan since it's not as aggressive. I found it way weaker than both Jund and Abzan. I don't have the reach of R nor do I have the evasion of Souls/lifegain of Rhino. Once I get to the long game my spells are easily getting outclassed by more powerful spells or the card advantage that control decks have. Again I feel like Jund/Abzan are stronger.
I didn't see your notes until now but they are interesting. I'll incorporate Stubborn denial and Architects of Will to the delirium build if I choose to go back to it. Got around to thinking why would I play blue and the other option is a more traditional control style. Decided to build this and am pretty happy with how it plays so far. My losses were definitely because I usually play a more aggro/midrange mindset of "how do I win the fastest" instead of "how do I not lose each turn". This leans more UB control splashing green for goyfs, abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse. I like it more than straight UB control because I personally like to drop fatties to use as shields and having hard removal.
1 Breeding Pool
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Forest
3 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Cryptic Command
3 Fatal Push
2 Logic Knot
2 Mana Leak
2 Damnation
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Serum Visions
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalker
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Enchantment
2 Search for Azcanta
Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Collective Brutality
2 Countersquall
1 Damnation
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
Match 1 - vs Naya Zoo (but a more combo version with 8 pacts, the red and green ones)
Game 1 - Buried him with hand disruption I dropped a goyf and stonewalled his creatures.
Game 2 - he had the nut draw and I lost turn 3
Game 3 - I didn't play around a path to exile even though I had the Cryptic Command to last another turn (and I knew he played paths). I tapped his creatures and went in with Goyf and Tar pit. He pathed Goyf and swung back for lethal.
Match 2 - MonoW taxes
Game 1 - this was super grindy. I had a great boardstate of Ashiok, Jace and Ltlh emblem out but only 2 life. I should have cast another flyer with Ashiok but I decided to mill him more. Big mistake, he vialed in a flickerwisp on end step and killed me.
Game 2 - I got trapped under Arbiter and Thalia. Couldn't push thalia or arbiter because he kept flickering them and I couldn't muster enough mana to damnation.
Match 3 - Waste not combo
Game 1 - I rip apart his hand and drop some goyfs
Game 2 - his hand was too redundant and got the waste not combo online killing me turn 3
Game 3 - He opens with the black leyline leaving me with 2/3 Goyfs. I play around waste not leaving up abrupt decay/counter magic for it. Surgical extract it and go in for the kill with goyf, snaps and tar pits.
Ashiok was actually mainboard and really liked it. I can see how it's powerful and might leave it MB but I think I might like Azcanta to help smooth out my draws. I'll test some more and try it out but I personally like this build more than the BGu versions. They play like Jund/Abzan but don't have the power level to compete. I really missed the reach/removal from Jund and Souls/Rhino/sideboard from Abzan. The only area I think improves is Tron matchups where I can counter Karns/Ugins.
Lotv would have been good against MonoW taxes but otherwise didn't miss it that much. It's nice not having to live off my top deck ahhaha
STANDARD|UW Control MODERN| UBG Midrange PAUPER| UG Fog COMMANDER| UBG The Mimeoplasm
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Breeding Pool
1 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Field of Ruin
1 Forest
2 Island
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scavenging ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Grim Flayer
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Hooting Manddrills
1 Gurmag Angler
Planeswalkers 6
2 Jace, Cunning Castaway
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Opt
3 Serum Visions
3 Thought Scour
1 Duress
2 Fatal Push
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
1 Bitterblossom
1 Collective Brutality
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Search for Azcanta
1 Despise
Forgot to dig out the sideboard, so not including that right now.
In general sultai midrange needs a blue card that gives you a reason to play it over jund or abzan. Red gives bolt, command, bbe - white path, souls and sideboard hosers. Blue offers card selection and maybe counterspells (which nonbo with lotv and overlap with discard as a universal answer).
Bgx is already grindy and powerful so its tough to see card selection as the thing it needs. Thought scour is interesting for powering up goyfs and flayers, but again is it really necesary? Goyf gets to 4/5 pretty easily without any help as it is.
Imo modern needs a simic card on the level of decay, helix, kcommand, lingering souls to give you a real reason to play the sultai wedge. But really any blue card with big bgx synergy would do the trick too. Stubborn denial is close with goyfs and death shadows.
* Esper Draw-Go
* Tezzeret Whir
* Blue Tron
It's very playable.
Tick up, draw/discard in a deck like this is potent. It digs, it fuels delve, and it turns into threats. Bitterblossom/Jace is a very potent combo
As far as a playable BUG list right now, don't sleep on BUG Delirium either. Creating massive Tarmogoyfs is a great way to stonewall Thought-Knot Seers, Reality Smashers, Gurmag Anglers, Tasigurs, and Hollow Ones, while also racing the smaller creature decks. Plus, we have Grim Flayer as an additional clock that sets up our draws. He's been easier to connect with now that we have better removal for the previously mentioned threats, and in a delirium build, he's a 4/4 most of the time.
MB
-1 damnation
+1 Nissa, steward of elements
SB
+1 damping sphere (want 2 but havent had a chance to pick it up)
+1 damnation
-1 nihil spellbomb
-1 ashiok
Round 1 vs Bant counters company
Game 1: he couldn't get past a goyf and I couldn't deal with the knight of reliquary. He managed to get a bunch of creatures out and went wide while I just drew lands.
Game 2: I was about to win this game but game 1 took so long that I gave him the win since he's a friend and I wasn't going to make it through to game 3
0-1
Round 2 vs waste not
Game 1: held up removal/counters for waste not/Liliana's caress and beat in with goyfs and ulted Nissa
Game 2: held up removal/counters for waste not/Liliana's caress and ulted a Jace
1-1
Round 3 vs eldrazi taxes
Game 1: Damnation + Jace fate seal + goyf = GG
Game 2: he was mana screwed, I landed a Jace and made sure he couldn't draw more lands. Ulted Jace.
2-1 overall
This,
I'm also on a Delirium build and it's certainly a viable strategy. Though, much like BUG midrange, it's far from set in stone.
I agree with the Search for Azcanta assesment in that it's not great in this deck, unflipped it's good for Delirium and filtering but it has no use flipped. In midrange this get's better but nowhere near as efficient as in pure draw-go decks,
I feel there is a lot more action going on in this topic, Could Delirium and Midrange possibly be fused into one topic? (Like abzan) since at the base, both decks use the same BGx midrange shell.
Modern: WUBRG Humans - GBW Traverse - GWU Knightfall - GRW Bushwhacker Zoo -
Decklist...
3x Bitterblossom
Planeswalkers
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
Sorceries
4x Serum visions
1x Collective Brutality
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Creatures
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Scavenging Ooze
Instants
3x Cryptic Command
3x Fatal Push
3x Remand
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Cast Down
2x Spell Snare
1x Opt
1x Censor
4x Polluted Delta
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Verdant Catacombs
2x Watery Grave
2x Breeding Pool
1x Overgrown tomb
2x Hinterland Harbor
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Sunken Ruins
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Forest
3x Damping Sphere
2x Thragtusk
2x Nihil spellbomb
2x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Damnation
1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1x Flaying Tendrils
1x Naturalize
1x Disdainful Stroke
1x Dispel
-The Manabase, feels somewhat suboptimal wouldn't necessarily say inconsistent just a bit rough. I'm sure its just a need for UUU Cryptic and potential turn 3 V-Cliquebut also wanting to hit BB to be able to cast multiple removal spells and potential Turn 3 LTLH and also GG to try to get value out of Scooze should he hit the board. Most times it doesn't really affect anything as I just fetch extra green later, but still sketchy to me.
-2 Spell Snare is probably one too many, but I love it against pretty much everything that isn't RG Ponza or Eldrazi or Tron. Still probably wouldn't mind shaving down to 1, but if I did shave it down to 1-of I would want to replace it with another 1-drop. Possibly Disfigure as its great against aggro, kills BBE without having to turn on revolt and can shrink down bigger creatures on turn 3 if our Goyf isn't big enough yet.
-1-of Censor probably seems out of place, but I personally love it and its overperformed for me in my testing last night as it actually countered a turn 3 Reality Smasher game 1 and game 2 cycled to find me land 4 to cryptic tap/draw on my opponents next turn to follow up Damnation against them. Also the 1-of Opt probably also seems out of place, but I really want to add more 1-drops but DON'T want to play hand disruption main.
-I talked to a close friend and old testing buddy who plays JUND and he reaffirmed my fear that I may be running too little life-gain main to make Bitterblossom worth it. I agreed, but told him I wasn't sure what to play for life-gain main outside of Scooze and CB as I didn't want to get too Janky, but I didn't want to increase the mana curve too much. I considered Finks, but didn't really want to HAVE to commit to GG on turn 3 as well. I was going back and forth on a singelton Pulse of Murasa as it will guarantee we hit land drop four for crucial turn 4 Cryptics/JTMS if we have to or turn 4 Damnation or buying back Snap or other value while also gaining me six life, However I think it truly will come down to putting one or two Swaggy T into the Main deck
-Speaking of Bitterblossom I replaced Search For Azcanta with it after I decided to give it a try to help the humans matchup, mainly, while also having splash damage vs other Midrange/Control strategies and in testing it seems to perform well enough to warrant more testing. It's especially good against their slower more manageable hands. I look at it as trading 1-life for 3+ dmg and I added it up over a course of a game it effectively cost me 5 life to prevent 14 damage... (Two 4/4 Mantis Rider swings and three 2/3Freebooter swings) I ultimately lost that game, but the blossom definitely bought me time to find the relevant spells I needed... my opponents disruption was just a little consistent and frequent for me to overcome.
-Lastly, THE PERSONIFICATION OF LUKEWARM I WANT THIS CARD TO BE SO GOOD! I LOVE THIS CARD, there are games it has won me games there are also games where it hit nothing but land and my opponent drew all the gas... The high variance dependant on my opponent's deck makes this card feel less good, but the ability to take creatures makes it feel OP... I am always going back and forth on this card but alas I may finally be axing it probably for a copy of CB
In other words my fellow members of the Opulent Palace.... I would like help to improve this list and get some fresh eyes on it....
So far the one day I've had of testing this idea and this deck it pulled a 4-1 finish with the only loss being a PUNT that came from not playing against Ad Naus in probably 2 months and forgetting momentarily that the deck can win with Phyrexian Unlife plus Ad Nauseam as I tapped out on my turn 4 to kill my opponents Pentad Prism to keep him off of Ad Naus mana after he tapped down and only had a single B up after he cast Unlife and he Pact of Negationed my pulse... Spoils to Ad Naus going to -7 in the process and he kills me in his upkeep as I die with Abrupt Decay in hand. I won game 2, and he won game 3 on his turn 4, my turn 3. after double lotus bloom turn 1, double ad naus in hand... top deck Phyrexian Unlife
the 4 wins were against... Mardu Vampires (2-0), BR Demigod of Revenge Deck (2-1), Colorless Eldrazi (2-0) which was an absolute bonkers matchup as game one I stabilized at 1 life with JTMS facing down TKS and Reality Smasher game 1.. i also cast Cryptic 5 times that game... and game 2 i won on the back of double Goyf Thragtusk after blowing up the board with damnation.... and I beat Burn in the last round (2-1) game 1 a turn 3 Collective set me up nicely to win.. game 2 he turn 4'd me... and game 3 I raced with a 5/6 goyf.
I really wanted bitterblossom to work but feel like it works better in a less painful UB build. BUG just requires too much fetching up front. And adding lifegain MB just isn't worth it. I even cut scooze because the G requirements are so high when I'd rather be getting UB for Snap/Cryptic/removal. In my brief testing I only splashed G for Goyfs, abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse and found it helped smooth out my mana a lot.
Totally agree that Ashiok is SO GOOD when it's good but totally garbage when it's irrelevant. I've moved Ashiok to SB and it's performed well there.
I'd also replace the spell snare/censor with a manaleak or logic knot. What spells are you scared of that are 2CMC? all I can think of a creatures and with all the MB removal, it should be fine to let it resolve. How has remand been for you? Seems like it would be good because the deck is a little more tempo-y than traditional control.
Clique is good too, I've been trying to find a spot to put it in but would rather have IoK/Thoughtseize lol.
Lastly, why no IoK/Thoughtseize? I found it helps to set up my Serum visions and decision paths of what to counter/kill