With 8 fetches and a full set of Thought Scours, it's never a problem having enough stuff to delve. In addition 22 lands never felt like enough, particularly in a deck with no copies of Serum Visions. I think that the ability to make our turn 1 plays painlessly, especially given our subpar burn matchup, is very worth 1 less fetchland.
With 8 fetches and a full set of Thought Scours, it's never a problem having enough stuff to delve. In addition 22 lands never felt like enough, particularly in a deck with no copies of Serum Visions. I think that the ability to make our turn 1 plays painlessly, especially given our subpar burn matchup, is very worth 1 less fetchland.
The turn 2 Tasigur play is so powerfull against a lot of decks I try to maximize the odds of it. I do play 1 Darkslick Shores and 1 Seachrome coast though.
I agree that 22 lands without Serum Visions is tough, I play 2 and I think this is the bare bones minimum.
1) I see some list playing a playset of Snapcaster and some others just 1 or 2. How much is he mandatory in this deck? (as I don't own them and don't plan to buy them soon, already too much stuff to get with MM2015 and fetches^^). Could he be replaced by Bob, as Snapcaster work a bit like card draw on a stick too?
Snappy is vital IMO. He gets powered up by the tought scours can close out games if need be. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card, but in a deck with multiple tasigurs and murderous cuts it's just asking for trouble.
Whelp, just had a my reply eaten by MTGS. So I'll just go over the synopsis. Thoughtscour has a ~15% to mill at least one souls T2/T3 in any given game where you've seen none, not something that I'd put into its favor. It also only increases your chance to see souls (over Visions, disregarding Scry) is ~10%. And if you do hit the 15% mill chance, its reward is a 1 mana reduction but only one usage; its useful, certainly but not something that would make me pick it over visions.
The mana efficency against combo/control isn't something that, again, would make me want it over Visions. Consider that Twin will typically only place Twin on a creature if it can protect it from our removal and/or counter magic. That means that you'll generally want to remove the flasher on your EoT, where their mana is most constrained. This is, of course, disregarding the common event where Twin takes out the combo in favor of grind-cards like Jace/Keranos and board sweeps.
The combat trick, to me, is the most useless "perk" of thoughtscour. In my opinion, any competent opponent won't block a prowess creature where a single instant makes the combat math terrible for them. So I don't see much of a difference between an in-combat thought scour and a first main Vision. It could, perhaps, protect an already buffed mentor from a bolt but your opponent would have had to let the first prowess trigger resolve (or you have another instant in hand) for that to matter.
My major thing about visions is that it allows for more hands to be kept. A 1-land hand, with mostly our 1 cmc instants, is eminently keepable with visions, probably not so much with thought scour.
But I could be wrong. Maybe 4 5/6cmc delve spells necessitates the thought scours in order to cast them comfortably. As I said, I'm only a few matches into this deck, there remains much to be seen.
I play 4 scours and 2 Serum Visions. IMO scour is more important in this deck. This is where it has made a difference in my games:
- fuels delve and snappies (gives you better selection) and especially enables turn 2 Tasigur, it's not common but when it happens it's a big play.
- instant speed token producer. You have 4 mana, cast mentor with U open, if they bolt you cast the scour and get a token. This is a pretty common play in my experience. And yes, a mini swiftspear token often is very relevant.
- instant speed combat trick, doesn't happen often but sometimes it helps.
- extra card advantage with lingering souls: doesn't happen often but when you scour a lingering souls that's a 'free' extra spell to trigger prowess and generate tokens.
IMO tought scour is an auto 4-of. Ok, sometimes you mul a one-lander on the play. It usually doesn't matter that much though, the deck muls pretty good. I've won 4-handers by landing T2 Tasigur.
What's the GR tron matchup like? Rely on hand disruption and counters?
Pretty bad IMO. We're usually not fast enough to kill them before the big guns come down. Oblivion Stone and Ugin are beatings (and they often play Pyroclasm in the side). We have stony silence from the board but you really want land destruction as well.
I play 4 scours and 2 Serum Visions. IMO scour is more important in this deck. This is where it has made a difference in my games:
- fuels delve and snappies (gives you better selection) and especially enables turn 2 Tasigur, it's not common but when it happens it's a big play.
- instant speed token producer. You have 4 mana, cast mentor with U open, if they bolt you cast the scour and get a token. This is a pretty common play in my experience. And yes, a mini swiftspear token often is very relevant.
- instant speed combat trick, doesn't happen often but sometimes it helps.
- extra card advantage with lingering souls: doesn't happen often but when you scour a lingering souls that's a 'free' extra spell to trigger prowess and generate tokens.
IMO tought scour is an auto 4-of. Ok, sometimes you mul a one-lander on the play. It usually doesn't matter that much though, the deck muls pretty good. I've won 4-handers by landing T2 Tasigur.
You should probably play 4 Serum Vision and 4 Thought Scour, as well as possibly a couple Probes. Not sure why you can't find room for the full set of Visions in your deck, it's the best cantrip in Modern and still very much sets up your Delve creatures as well as your draws. Is it actually that hard to fit in the full 8 (or more) cantrips? I've seen the OP lists, but it still seems like you would want to start with more cantrips in any list that's focusing on Tasigur and other Delve spells. Perhaps I'm wrong though.
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You should probably play 4 Serum Vision and 4 Thought Scour, as well as possibly a couple Probes. Not sure why you can't find room for the full set of Visions in your deck, it's the best cantrip in Modern and still very much sets up your Delve creatures as well as your draws. Is it actually that hard to fit in the full 8 (or more) cantrips? I've seen the OP lists, but it still seems like you would want to start with more cantrips in any list that's focusing on Tasigur and other Delve spells. Perhaps I'm wrong though.
I'm only running two Tasigurs, most lists with thought scour are running three. 4 TS should be more than enough cantrip to fuel the delves, especially with 8 fetches and a plethora of other 1cmc spells, so I don't really see a need for Git probe. As for Serum and TS, what would you take out? Part of the deck's advantage over say BW Tokens is the veritable army of removal and a decent splash of counter magic. To find room for 4 SV, you're likely removing some number of Remands(or leaks)/snares, leaving our "protect the mentor" threat axis weaker and more vulnerable to combo. Maybe tone down the discard? Most are running 6 main, with a 2/2 split of thoughtseizes main/board. I'm not a huge fan of that since any midrange deck really wants the hand discard.
I wouldn't want to go less than 3 snapcasters, at any cost. You could, maybe, go 2/3 split of SV/TS removing a mentor, but I feel like that's a compromise in mediocrity at the price of removing a major threat. Maybe there's room, but I'm not seeing it.
I play 4 scours and 2 Serum Visions. IMO scour is more important in this deck. This is where it has made a difference in my games:
- fuels delve and snappies (gives you better selection) and especially enables turn 2 Tasigur, it's not common but when it happens it's a big play.
- instant speed token producer. You have 4 mana, cast mentor with U open, if they bolt you cast the scour and get a token. This is a pretty common play in my experience. And yes, a mini swiftspear token often is very relevant.
- instant speed combat trick, doesn't happen often but sometimes it helps.
- extra card advantage with lingering souls: doesn't happen often but when you scour a lingering souls that's a 'free' extra spell to trigger prowess and generate tokens.
IMO tought scour is an auto 4-of. Ok, sometimes you mul a one-lander on the play. It usually doesn't matter that much though, the deck muls pretty good. I've won 4-handers by landing T2 Tasigur.
I mean, sure, its a better explosive card. Not debating that. T2 Tasigur is real. But I just think its a very mediocre card outside of that play.
Regarding your 4 mana mentor play; You still retain priority so if you smell a bolt, you can serum visions before they even get the chance. TS here could be more relevant if you want to keep up another 1cmc instant, but if they're bolting your mentor then they're bolting your mentor that turn. Meaning its tying up your mana anyway.
TS is a niche card, that can be very good in this deck. But you've all brought up some ideas that have merit. I should probably find some time to swap out visions and play with TS instead.
Given all the recent discussion regarding Serum Visions, what are people's thoughts regarding the use of Think Twice in this list? The built-in flashback seems nice conceptually, but I have a feeling it is prohibitively expensive.
Given all the recent discussion regarding Serum Visions, what are people's thoughts regarding the use of Think Twice in this list? The built-in flashback seems nice conceptually, but I have a feeling it is prohibitively expensive.
I tried Think Twice as a 1-of in my 4 Myth Realized-3 Mentor-4 Tiago-1 Tasigur-3 Tar Pit-4 Thought Scour version and hated how prohibitively expensive its Flashback was (and, unlike Souls, I didn't mill it often enough). I ditched it for Anticipate and haven't looked back--Anticipate's superior card selection is so strong that it easily compensates for making 1 fewer Monk token and pumping MR with 1 fewer lore counter.
I tried Think Twice as a 1-of in my 4 Myth Realized-3 Mentor-4 Tiago-1 Tasigur-3 Tar Pit-4 Thought Scour version and hated how prohibitively expensive its Flashback was (and, unlike Souls, I didn't mill it often enough). I ditched it for Anticipate and haven't looked back--Anticipate's superior card selection is so strong that it easily compensates for making 1 fewer Monk token and pumping MR with 1 fewer lore counter.
Yeah that's what I figured. I am just starting to test with the deck but Think Twice has felt clunky. Currently I am considering a straight swap with Serum Visions for it.
Separate question, I am just getting into Modern and I'm not sure whether it's correct to just T1 Creeping Tar Pit or to fetch and/or shock myself for a T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek, assuming an unknown opponent. It seems like a huge hit to take if you're against Burn or Affinity.
Separate question, I am just getting into Modern and I'm not sure whether it's correct to just T1 Creeping Tar Pit or to fetch and/or shock myself for a T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek, assuming an unknown opponent. It seems like a huge hit to take if you're against Burn or Affinity.
It ought to be fairly safe to go turn 1 Tar Pit and adjust as needed. I'd wager the decks for which its risky to forgo a T1 thoughtseize are far less common than decks where there's little difference between T1 and T2. Really only two spring to my mind; just Bloom and Tron. And storm if you're on the draw.
I'm only running two Tasigurs, most lists with thought scour are running three. 4 TS should be more than enough cantrip to fuel the delves, especially with 8 fetches and a plethora of other 1cmc spells, so I don't really see a need for Git probe. As for Serum and TS, what would you take out? Part of the deck's advantage over say BW Tokens is the veritable army of removal and a decent splash of counter magic. To find room for 4 SV, you're likely removing some number of Remands(or leaks)/snares, leaving our "protect the mentor" threat axis weaker and more vulnerable to combo. Maybe tone down the discard? Most are running 6 main, with a 2/2 split of thoughtseizes main/board. I'm not a huge fan of that since any midrange deck really wants the hand discard.
I wouldn't want to go less than 3 snapcasters, at any cost. You could, maybe, go 2/3 split of SV/TS removing a mentor, but I feel like that's a compromise in mediocrity at the price of removing a major threat. Maybe there's room, but I'm not seeing it.
I guess looking at the "Tasigur" flavored lists posted in the OP, as well as this list from last month: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83416, there isn't that much room after all for Serum Visions unless you cut business spells. Which, to be fair, is usually the case with cantrips. If I was going to squeeze in any Serum Visions into Zane Knapps SCG list above, I would probably look to cut a couple discard spells and perhaps maybe a removal or counterspell somewhere. But maybe Visions just isn't necessary. It looks like Thought Scour is essentially just there for the free value off mentor and to fuel the 4 Delve cards while also milling value via Snappy and Souls. I guess since Serum Visions only really does one of those things well (trigger mentor), it's not a necessary inclusion. Still, I think it could be valuable in some cases.
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Separate question, I am just getting into Modern and I'm not sure whether it's correct to just T1 Creeping Tar Pit or to fetch and/or shock myself for a T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek, assuming an unknown opponent. It seems like a huge hit to take if you're against Burn or Affinity.
- whats your opinion about the archetype? Tempo or midrange/control? If you have a nice draw this deck feels RLY strong. without a nice hand its sucks and topdecks are bad. like day and night. Seems more like a real tempo deck than a midrange deck like gbx.
- whats are our mvps and whats are flexspots? Imo our mvps are: mentor, tasigur, discard, spot removal on mass, creaping tar pit against all non red decks and firewalker against all red decks. Bad are the spell snares and remands in the maindeck. IMO dispel or spell pierce are better in that spot and/or more discard or more cantrips or more bombs (gumag angler? tombstalker? batterskull main?)
- what with liliana of the veil? yes we wanna cast our spells with a mentor in play. But we play a LOT spot removal, so the board is often clear. and a lotv resolved on a clear board is often gg.
- how can we get a faster clock? we play only 6 bombs. 4 mentor, 2 tasigur. imo snapcaster beatdown is stronger in other decks were you can bolt someone end of turn if they cast nothing in your counter spells.
just my 2 cents and sorry for my real bad english. not my native language and i am rly tired.
From my experience playing Esper Mentor:
I find Esper Mentor to be a midrange deck. In grindy match-ups, I do surprisingly well with hands consisting of only disruption, lands, and cantrips (heck, sometimes, without cantrips) with no threats. We disrupt first, then stick threats by Turn 5-6 (assuming our libraries are generous enough)--that's midrange to me.
Yep, Mentor, 1-mana targeted discard, more than 4 removal spells, and some number of Snapcaster Mages are MVPs. Tasigur's also a house, and I believe 4 or more cheap cantrips are essential Mentor(/Delve) fuel. People are increasingly lowering Creeping Tar Pit numbers, though.
I'm personally not certain about how well Liliana of the Veil would do in this deck, although she does have a habit of making Mentor go without noncreature spell fuel.
I've been doing decently well with 4 Myth Realized, 3 Mentor, 1 Tasigur, 4 Tiago, 4 Souls, and 3 Tar Pits. I removed all my 4-drops and went down to 22 lands to pull this off. I play 5 cantrips instead of 4--the 5th cantrip could easily be Tasigur #2. Turn 1-2 Myth Realized often ends up dealing as much damage as Turn 3 Souls by Turn 4, though. Other people have success with Sorin, Solemn Visitor or even Sorin, Lord of Innistrad as an extra bomb.
Hey so I've been lurking/playing MONASTERY MENTOR for a while and I've decided to post now because the last couple of posts really hit a chord with what I've been experiencing. I've been working, tweaking, testing a lot of main deck and sideboard configurations. The deck and my comments separately below, as it is a bit of read, forgive me.
for the tl;dr The deck's main threat is mentor and tasigur. If this deck is to take any free wins, it will be off of turn 2 tasigur or stabilize into turn 3/4 mentor. counters always proved somewhat underwhelming and awkward to this plan because the fit the first half of stabilizing, but not the second half of getting the free win. Started running GITAXIAN PROBE to relegate the last few counters to the board. Added the sorely needed GHOST QUARTER as the twenty-third land (though could easily be TECTONIC EDGE to one's taste, I personally like the "free" nature of it in an already mana hungry deck), a GURMAG ANGLER since I can't stand drawing 2 TASIGUR, THE GOLDEN FANG and a WRATH, SORIN, SOLEMN VISITOR, BATTERSKULL package to the board. I like how smooth it runs like this and the board is powerful. Gonna test a bunch with this config. I have some doubts, but they are mostly against specific matchups. I've played the deck enough to know that this is very close to the correct config unless I'm not understanding something and being a noob (which is oft to happen).
After watching the Starcitygames premium video (love/hate that app. did pee my pants the morning I saw it tho, not gonna lie) and my own suspicions that gitaxian probe and mentor were meant to be. It's so nice to setup turn 1 and 2, drop mentor, probe into gas, drop a token and be in a commanding position turn 4. I've been sold on it for a while and never looked back. You just get down to what this deck is designed to do much quicker. You may lose some due to the lack of counters, but remand is soft, and snare is a liability. You will make up for the losses eventually with more easy wins, of which this deck I think needs more.
Which conveniently brings me to my next topic, threats. When I analyzed the threat axis of the deck, I saw mentor, tasigur, souls, tarpit. The whole thing works because mentor wants spells to be cast and tasigur wants to exile them from the graveyard. Souls is just great for many reasons, but powerfully so with mentor and the yard. Tarpit just plays into the deck's macro-level midrange goals, which brings us to an intermission.
Why is this deck a midrange deck and grixis delver a tempo deck? One could point to the threats to answer the question; delver vs mentor. But the interesting thing is the cast of cards that accompanies each. Delver drops, then exploits cheap board and stack interaction for the kill. We, again, disrupt and stabilize into mentor. Imagine a straight mish mash of the two decks in Mardu.
It's just kind of ugly. A ton of fun, but what? It's got no identity. While the delver/mentor juxtaposition is the most glaring difference between grixis and esper, a more subtle and explanatory one may be bolt/seize. I have tried to embrace this difference as I've learned more about both decks and I think they are key to explaining the tempo/midrange identity.
Anyway, back to threats. As we disrupt and remove mentor and tasigur get turned on and I really want a the maximum possible of that combination. The thing is that 3 tasigur is too much. But you need another, just not two more because 4 is too many anyway because of delve considerations. So mise a gurmag angler I say! The lack of threats is also addressed in the sideboard, and I'll highlight Sorin because he always felt clunky in the main.
A final word on the main deck land changes, I do believe 4 pits is not needed, though I wouldn't blame anyone for it. I like another plains tho; I've grown fond of basics. Also, I think anyone who has played the deck has come across a time when they have felt that "if only I had land destruction right now". Quarter is my concession to both the ld and the mana problem that is often cited.
SIDEBOARD
I'll start with a word on the archetypes. This deck is on the map because of its matchup against twin. It really is great and doesn't need much in the board. As long as we hit some incidental spells that are good to bring in against them we'll be good to take out the couple stinkers we may have.
Burn, on the other hand, is a major problem for the concept of the main deck. If Death's Shadow fit in the deck, it certainly could be playable by turn 3 or 4 as anyone can attest. For a while I didn't understand the sideboard of the original list. But now I see that it is really almost completely dedicated to burn. In my sideboard, I will bring in 11 cards for burn. It is imperative that these cards can also fill other roles. This really is an underlying theme for most of the cards in the board.
Another such theme is Rock decks. They are the kind of grind and we need everything at our disposal to match them at halvsies. This is a direct result of the green vs blue in our midrange deck. We need some powerful plays to tilt the scales back in our favor and that is really what drove me to include some specific bullets for rock that fit the anti-burn theme.
There is also the mandatory anti-artifact cards that deserve their mandatory one-sentence paragraph.
Duress is a concession to burn, as seize is just too painful. Major winners are Creatures 4cmc and higher. They have to be dealt with on board. On the other hand, you really want to bring that in to fight noncreature cards anyway.
Logic knot is a great card. The deck exploits the yard with scour and probe and is a great 1 of. I have seldom been in situations when I don’t' have enough resources to counter what I want with ti. Flashfreeze rounds out the counters as a well-situated card right now (it's possible the second freeze should be a negate, but I like where freeze is at right now).
Starting with freeze, the Abzan splash of the board continues with the always-relevant celestial purge and is a better removal spell to bring in against burn than the black based ones. Timely reinforcements, is quite good in both matchups and Sorin and Batterskull round out the high end. My personal touch is phyrexian unlife for the diversification to round out the burn board. It really presents a gameplan at all levels against burn, the pieces of which can be applied to various other matchups. I think reinforcements is a concession to the Abzan matchup, where kor firewalker may be the better card in the slot. It's quite the beast and it's at the lacking 2 drop spot. Testing will show I'm sure.
The rock plan really revolves around the sorely needed wrath of god and works well with souls, sorin, batterskull, and tasigur on turn 5, which is a great play. I can't stress enough the importance of threat density against rock. The 2 sideboard permanents are resilient and powerful threats to present in the mathcup that work well with wrath and the elusive big-creature two-for-one is needed in this and many other matchups, notably zoo, merfolk, and boggles. It's also ok in affinity, which, with zealous persecution, completes the abzan streak. Persecution is great against and with souls and great in other matchups. I would run 2 because I think it's so well position, but I do think that the split with wrath is better.
Finally, obligatory stony silence and disenchant are obligatory. though it's very possible this should just be 2 disenchants.
That about does it. I'm happy with this configuration and I'll be testing it for a while. I feel good about it because it's just so focused. I used to have 2 logic knots instead of the angler and quarter, but I didn't feel good about them in certain matchups. I think the deck now presents a coherent game 1 plan that can get easier kills and board into a coherent plan against the format's top weak matchups. I honestly believe this deck has, or at the very least be tuned, to have game against most of the random decks you'll come across in the format if it can present this game 1 and follow up with a variety of versatile questions and answers.
Edit:
2-0 Abzan
Game 1 went off with Monk and probe, t4 2 scours and a pact on his goyf to attack in for 9.
Game 2: grind fest. I blast a quarter early, responds with a fulminator. I get all my basics out to counter a tec edge later. Gets liliana down, I cast/flash souls, persecution into kill her, souls top deck to finish off. Had wrath and another souls in hand in case things got fishy. feels good man.
all business basically. top decks have to be at their best
0-2 Norin Tremors
ugh. terrible. tbh though I had game if i drew persecution or wrath.
1-2 br zombie blood chief ascension
i boarded wrong the second match cause I haven't played too much against this deck. Could a had the games I lost. Seems beatable. Update: I do think I will end up changing stony silence to disenchant. The versatility is too good
1-2 twin
I'm crashing. Tired. Lots of missplays. Should have had him both games I lost but punted. First one didn't path lavamancer before my turn ended so he untapped and killed me with it. Second game I had been keeping up freeze for a Keranos I knew about from a seize and I stupidly forgot and attacked with pit. Won the first game obviously
Thoughts after a bit of testing. Smooth and felt like i had game against everything but norin and really did because of persecution if i had mised it. I did change the disenchant in the board and am debating whether the watery grave should be a hallowed fountain. on the other hand i like 2 plains so fountain might be overkill. Ghost quarter was a delight to draw every time i did. and the angler did work in the game he came out.
Okay, so ever since this deck first appeared, I've been jamming it like crazy and testing, and I've come to what I think is close to the optimal build.
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Thought Scour
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
2 Murderous Cut
2 Mana Leak
1 Remand
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Geist of Saint Traft
Let me explain some of my choices. Darkslick shores painless enables our turn 1 plays of Inquisition/Thoughtseize or Thought Scour, which not only makes your hands smoother but helps with our poor burn matchup preboard. It's been fantastic I don't know why more people aren't using it. 23 lands over 22 makes a lot of sense when you consider our strange mana curve and the fact that we have no serum visions to set up our draws, 22 is way too greedy. Geist is currently in there over 1 Tasigur just as a test, feel free to ignore him if you so choose, but he's been a monster so far. The sideboard focuses mostly on dealing with fast aggro (especially burn) and having grindier cards for longer matchups. Rain of Tears is for the otherwise unwinnable Tron matchup, not sure yet if it does enough.
On second thought, Shadow of Doubt seems great against Tron, and would have other utilities against greedy manabases, Gifts, Chord of Calling, etc... I'm gonna consider this.
Just lived the dream of being on the play turn three dropping a ghost quarter and shadow of doubt their fetch leaving them with no land on untap. It was absolutely devastating and they just scooped. Seems like the combo can be strong along with path to exile. I'm trying this out after reading Anthony lowry's article on SCG where he covers the current state of modern. I'm not going all in with his plan of cryptic command, but that's mostly because I'm scared to pull the trigger on the cmc. I'm putting in logic knot for the spot. And I'm doing all of this in place of the gitaxian probe to try out. I really don't think there are too many flex spots anyway and I replaced thought scour with vapor snag for a while to see if I would miss it and while snag certainly did some cool things saving mentor, I definitely missed the delve fuel
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The turn 2 Tasigur play is so powerfull against a lot of decks I try to maximize the odds of it. I do play 1 Darkslick Shores and 1 Seachrome coast though.
I agree that 22 lands without Serum Visions is tough, I play 2 and I think this is the bare bones minimum.
Snappy is vital IMO. He gets powered up by the tought scours can close out games if need be. Dark Confidant is a fantastic card, but in a deck with multiple tasigurs and murderous cuts it's just asking for trouble.
I play 4 scours and 2 Serum Visions. IMO scour is more important in this deck. This is where it has made a difference in my games:
- fuels delve and snappies (gives you better selection) and especially enables turn 2 Tasigur, it's not common but when it happens it's a big play.
- instant speed token producer. You have 4 mana, cast mentor with U open, if they bolt you cast the scour and get a token. This is a pretty common play in my experience. And yes, a mini swiftspear token often is very relevant.
- instant speed combat trick, doesn't happen often but sometimes it helps.
- extra card advantage with lingering souls: doesn't happen often but when you scour a lingering souls that's a 'free' extra spell to trigger prowess and generate tokens.
IMO tought scour is an auto 4-of. Ok, sometimes you mul a one-lander on the play. It usually doesn't matter that much though, the deck muls pretty good. I've won 4-handers by landing T2 Tasigur.
Pretty bad IMO. We're usually not fast enough to kill them before the big guns come down. Oblivion Stone and Ugin are beatings (and they often play Pyroclasm in the side). We have stony silence from the board but you really want land destruction as well.
You should probably play 4 Serum Vision and 4 Thought Scour, as well as possibly a couple Probes. Not sure why you can't find room for the full set of Visions in your deck, it's the best cantrip in Modern and still very much sets up your Delve creatures as well as your draws. Is it actually that hard to fit in the full 8 (or more) cantrips? I've seen the OP lists, but it still seems like you would want to start with more cantrips in any list that's focusing on Tasigur and other Delve spells. Perhaps I'm wrong though.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I'm only running two Tasigurs, most lists with thought scour are running three. 4 TS should be more than enough cantrip to fuel the delves, especially with 8 fetches and a plethora of other 1cmc spells, so I don't really see a need for Git probe. As for Serum and TS, what would you take out? Part of the deck's advantage over say BW Tokens is the veritable army of removal and a decent splash of counter magic. To find room for 4 SV, you're likely removing some number of Remands(or leaks)/snares, leaving our "protect the mentor" threat axis weaker and more vulnerable to combo. Maybe tone down the discard? Most are running 6 main, with a 2/2 split of thoughtseizes main/board. I'm not a huge fan of that since any midrange deck really wants the hand discard.
I wouldn't want to go less than 3 snapcasters, at any cost. You could, maybe, go 2/3 split of SV/TS removing a mentor, but I feel like that's a compromise in mediocrity at the price of removing a major threat. Maybe there's room, but I'm not seeing it.
I mean, sure, its a better explosive card. Not debating that. T2 Tasigur is real. But I just think its a very mediocre card outside of that play.
Regarding your 4 mana mentor play; You still retain priority so if you smell a bolt, you can serum visions before they even get the chance. TS here could be more relevant if you want to keep up another 1cmc instant, but if they're bolting your mentor then they're bolting your mentor that turn. Meaning its tying up your mana anyway.
TS is a niche card, that can be very good in this deck. But you've all brought up some ideas that have merit. I should probably find some time to swap out visions and play with TS instead.
Given all the recent discussion regarding Serum Visions, what are people's thoughts regarding the use of Think Twice in this list? The built-in flashback seems nice conceptually, but I have a feeling it is prohibitively expensive.
I tried Think Twice as a 1-of in my 4 Myth Realized-3 Mentor-4 Tiago-1 Tasigur-3 Tar Pit-4 Thought Scour version and hated how prohibitively expensive its Flashback was (and, unlike Souls, I didn't mill it often enough). I ditched it for Anticipate and haven't looked back--Anticipate's superior card selection is so strong that it easily compensates for making 1 fewer Monk token and pumping MR with 1 fewer lore counter.
Yeah that's what I figured. I am just starting to test with the deck but Think Twice has felt clunky. Currently I am considering a straight swap with Serum Visions for it.
Separate question, I am just getting into Modern and I'm not sure whether it's correct to just T1 Creeping Tar Pit or to fetch and/or shock myself for a T1 Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilek, assuming an unknown opponent. It seems like a huge hit to take if you're against Burn or Affinity.
It ought to be fairly safe to go turn 1 Tar Pit and adjust as needed. I'd wager the decks for which its risky to forgo a T1 thoughtseize are far less common than decks where there's little difference between T1 and T2. Really only two spring to my mind; just Bloom and Tron. And storm if you're on the draw.
I guess looking at the "Tasigur" flavored lists posted in the OP, as well as this list from last month: http://sales.starcitygames.com/deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83416, there isn't that much room after all for Serum Visions unless you cut business spells. Which, to be fair, is usually the case with cantrips. If I was going to squeeze in any Serum Visions into Zane Knapps SCG list above, I would probably look to cut a couple discard spells and perhaps maybe a removal or counterspell somewhere. But maybe Visions just isn't necessary. It looks like Thought Scour is essentially just there for the free value off mentor and to fuel the 4 Delve cards while also milling value via Snappy and Souls. I guess since Serum Visions only really does one of those things well (trigger mentor), it's not a necessary inclusion. Still, I think it could be valuable in some cases.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
http://www.starcitygames.com/article/26855_Thoughtseize-You.html
Everyone playing discard spells should read this article at least once.
If you already have - sorry, I didn't mean to be rude ^^
Blue lives don't matter in the slightest.
From my experience playing Esper Mentor:
for the tl;dr The deck's main threat is mentor and tasigur. If this deck is to take any free wins, it will be off of turn 2 tasigur or stabilize into turn 3/4 mentor. counters always proved somewhat underwhelming and awkward to this plan because the fit the first half of stabilizing, but not the second half of getting the free win. Started running GITAXIAN PROBE to relegate the last few counters to the board. Added the sorely needed GHOST QUARTER as the twenty-third land (though could easily be TECTONIC EDGE to one's taste, I personally like the "free" nature of it in an already mana hungry deck), a GURMAG ANGLER since I can't stand drawing 2 TASIGUR, THE GOLDEN FANG and a WRATH, SORIN, SOLEMN VISITOR, BATTERSKULL package to the board. I like how smooth it runs like this and the board is powerful. Gonna test a bunch with this config. I have some doubts, but they are mostly against specific matchups. I've played the deck enough to know that this is very close to the correct config unless I'm not understanding something and being a noob (which is oft to happen).
2 Plains
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Monastery Mentor
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
2 Murderous Cut
2 Slaughter Pact
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Thought Scour
4 Lingering Souls
1 Duress
1 Logic Knot
2 Flashfreeze
2 Celestial Purge
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
1 Batterskull
1 Wrath of God
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Disenchant
Maindeck
Which conveniently brings me to my next topic, threats. When I analyzed the threat axis of the deck, I saw mentor, tasigur, souls, tarpit. The whole thing works because mentor wants spells to be cast and tasigur wants to exile them from the graveyard. Souls is just great for many reasons, but powerfully so with mentor and the yard. Tarpit just plays into the deck's macro-level midrange goals, which brings us to an intermission.
Why is this deck a midrange deck and grixis delver a tempo deck? One could point to the threats to answer the question; delver vs mentor. But the interesting thing is the cast of cards that accompanies each. Delver drops, then exploits cheap board and stack interaction for the kill. We, again, disrupt and stabilize into mentor. Imagine a straight mish mash of the two decks in Mardu.
4 Monastery Mentor
3 Gurmag Angler
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lightning Helix
4 Lingering Souls
3 Kolaghan's Command
It's just kind of ugly. A ton of fun, but what? It's got no identity. While the delver/mentor juxtaposition is the most glaring difference between grixis and esper, a more subtle and explanatory one may be bolt/seize. I have tried to embrace this difference as I've learned more about both decks and I think they are key to explaining the tempo/midrange identity.
Anyway, back to threats. As we disrupt and remove mentor and tasigur get turned on and I really want a the maximum possible of that combination. The thing is that 3 tasigur is too much. But you need another, just not two more because 4 is too many anyway because of delve considerations. So mise a gurmag angler I say! The lack of threats is also addressed in the sideboard, and I'll highlight Sorin because he always felt clunky in the main.
A final word on the main deck land changes, I do believe 4 pits is not needed, though I wouldn't blame anyone for it. I like another plains tho; I've grown fond of basics. Also, I think anyone who has played the deck has come across a time when they have felt that "if only I had land destruction right now". Quarter is my concession to both the ld and the mana problem that is often cited.
Burn, on the other hand, is a major problem for the concept of the main deck. If Death's Shadow fit in the deck, it certainly could be playable by turn 3 or 4 as anyone can attest. For a while I didn't understand the sideboard of the original list. But now I see that it is really almost completely dedicated to burn. In my sideboard, I will bring in 11 cards for burn. It is imperative that these cards can also fill other roles. This really is an underlying theme for most of the cards in the board.
Another such theme is Rock decks. They are the kind of grind and we need everything at our disposal to match them at halvsies. This is a direct result of the green vs blue in our midrange deck. We need some powerful plays to tilt the scales back in our favor and that is really what drove me to include some specific bullets for rock that fit the anti-burn theme.
There is also the mandatory anti-artifact cards that deserve their mandatory one-sentence paragraph.
Duress is a concession to burn, as seize is just too painful. Major winners are Creatures 4cmc and higher. They have to be dealt with on board. On the other hand, you really want to bring that in to fight noncreature cards anyway.
Logic knot is a great card. The deck exploits the yard with scour and probe and is a great 1 of. I have seldom been in situations when I don’t' have enough resources to counter what I want with ti. Flashfreeze rounds out the counters as a well-situated card right now (it's possible the second freeze should be a negate, but I like where freeze is at right now).
Starting with freeze, the Abzan splash of the board continues with the always-relevant celestial purge and is a better removal spell to bring in against burn than the black based ones. Timely reinforcements, is quite good in both matchups and Sorin and Batterskull round out the high end. My personal touch is phyrexian unlife for the diversification to round out the burn board. It really presents a gameplan at all levels against burn, the pieces of which can be applied to various other matchups. I think reinforcements is a concession to the Abzan matchup, where kor firewalker may be the better card in the slot. It's quite the beast and it's at the lacking 2 drop spot. Testing will show I'm sure.
The rock plan really revolves around the sorely needed wrath of god and works well with souls, sorin, batterskull, and tasigur on turn 5, which is a great play. I can't stress enough the importance of threat density against rock. The 2 sideboard permanents are resilient and powerful threats to present in the mathcup that work well with wrath and the elusive big-creature two-for-one is needed in this and many other matchups, notably zoo, merfolk, and boggles. It's also ok in affinity, which, with zealous persecution, completes the abzan streak. Persecution is great against and with souls and great in other matchups. I would run 2 because I think it's so well position, but I do think that the split with wrath is better.
Finally, obligatory stony silence and disenchant are obligatory. though it's very possible this should just be 2 disenchants.
Edit:
2-0 Abzan
Game 2: grind fest. I blast a quarter early, responds with a fulminator. I get all my basics out to counter a tec edge later. Gets liliana down, I cast/flash souls, persecution into kill her, souls top deck to finish off. Had wrath and another souls in hand in case things got fishy. feels good man.
SB: +2 purge, +2 freeze, +1 wrath, +1 sorin, +1 batterskull, +1 persecution, +2 timely. -4 inquisition,-2 seize, -4 probe.
all business basically. top decks have to be at their best
0-2 Norin Tremors
1-2 br zombie blood chief ascension
1-2 twin
SB: +2 purge, +2 freeze, +1 duress, +1 knot. -2 cut, -4 souls. If I smell Keranos grind, +1 persecution, +1 wrath, +1 sorin, +1 batterskull. -4 probe
Thoughts after a bit of testing. Smooth and felt like i had game against everything but norin and really did because of persecution if i had mised it. I did change the disenchant in the board and am debating whether the watery grave should be a hallowed fountain. on the other hand i like 2 plains so fountain might be overkill. Ghost quarter was a delight to draw every time i did. and the angler did work in the game he came out.
2 Creeping Tar Pit
3 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Thought Scour
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
2 Murderous Cut
2 Mana Leak
1 Remand
4 Darkslick Shores
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
2 Thoughtseize
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Geist of Saint Traft
SB: 1 Flashfreeze
SB: 2 Stony Silence
SB: 2 Celestial Purge
SB: 2 Timely Reinforcements
SB: 1 Kor Firewalker
SB: 1 Countersquall
SB: 2 Rain of Tears
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Wrath of God
SB: 1 Dispel
SB: 1 Disenchant
Let me explain some of my choices. Darkslick shores painless enables our turn 1 plays of Inquisition/Thoughtseize or Thought Scour, which not only makes your hands smoother but helps with our poor burn matchup preboard. It's been fantastic I don't know why more people aren't using it. 23 lands over 22 makes a lot of sense when you consider our strange mana curve and the fact that we have no serum visions to set up our draws, 22 is way too greedy. Geist is currently in there over 1 Tasigur just as a test, feel free to ignore him if you so choose, but he's been a monster so far. The sideboard focuses mostly on dealing with fast aggro (especially burn) and having grindier cards for longer matchups. Rain of Tears is for the otherwise unwinnable Tron matchup, not sure yet if it does enough.