You mind posting your list? I tried 2 MR this weekend at states. The only match where they were really relevant was against Naya Zoo. It didn't do any damage, but they were forced to chump it with their only creature, effectively keeping the board clear for me. The problem I've been having with them is what to cut for them.
Going against what I said earlier and am trying Myth Realized in place of maindeck permission. The card's been really swingy for me. Sometimes you cast it early and it ends games and other times you topdeck it and hate life. I figured Mana Leak was similar in that regard so the switch was fine, but maybe we have enough threats already and Myth Realized is excessive.
Sideboard's a mess. I'm happy with a lot of the slots, but perhaps Curse of Death's Hold is a little too cute. I'd like to try to fit some Fulminator Mage in there because my meta has quite a bit of Tron, but then maybe I'm better off conceding that it's a bad matchup and focus my slots on where I can still possibly win.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy:UR Sneak and Show IUBG Team America IX Metalworker MUD Modern:UBR Blue Jund IWBX Eldrazi Processors IX Affinity IWRG Nacatl Burn IGR Tron IUBR Grishoalbrand
Ended up 2-2. Not terribly exciting and I'm pretty sure I sideboarded poorly, but I figured I'd share my observations. Rain the above list with -2 Myth Realized, +2 Mana Leak in the MD and -1 Curse of Death's Hold, -1 Timely Reinforcements, +2 Fulminator Mage in the SB. Those were concessions to the amount of Tron, Amulet, and control in the room.
Lost to Burn and Affinity in rounds 1 and 3, respectively. Burn stomped me in two games. Lingering Souls was a decent wall, but I was unable to get my Timely Reinforcements (I immediately regretted cutting down to two). The Affinity match was much closer and Esper can actually put up a lot of resistance with Snapcaster + removal spells and discard spells to get anything that costs more than one mana (and postboard Zealous Persecution was a huge blowout). Sadly Affinity more threats than I had answers and he won in three. We're definitely a dog to linear aggression but impactful white sideboard cards definitely help. I just wish I drew them
Won against Collected Company Junk (Podless Pod) and Amulet Bloom in rounds 2 and 4, both in three games. The aforementioned removal suite was fantastic at disrupting any infinite life combos and targeted discard and the Mana Leaks were great at stopping Collected Company (that card is super scary. I think it single-handedly revitalized the Pod subset of cards). As for Amulet Bloom, we're very good against the Primeval Titan half of the deck but aren't nearly as good at facing the Hive Mind half. Game two had an interesting game where he resolved a Hive Mind and had to rely on Snapcaster beats without casting any cantrips and he eventually topdecked a Summoner's Pact. Primeval Titan however was very easily stopped by our eight postboard removal spells + Snapcaster. I think he was able to attack exactly once the whole match.
I definitely need more practice with it but the deck felt great. Monastery Mentor was slow but ended games when he was left unanswered and the mix of disruption spells made me feel ready for almost any matchup. I think I'm going back on my initial analysis of maindeck permission (you can't stop the top of their deck and it's nice to have countermagic) but I wish we had a better option that Mana Leak because Path is a huge nombo.
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Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy:UR Sneak and Show IUBG Team America IX Metalworker MUD Modern:UBR Blue Jund IWBX Eldrazi Processors IX Affinity IWRG Nacatl Burn IGR Tron IUBR Grishoalbrand
Sideboard's a mess. I'm happy with a lot of the slots, but perhaps Curse of Death's Hold is a little too cute. I'd like to try to fit some Fulminator Mage in there because my meta has quite a bit of Tron, but then maybe I'm better off conceding that it's a bad matchup and focus my slots on where I can still possibly win.
I think with 4 mentors 4 snapcasters and 2-3 myths Rain of Tears is better than fulminator in this deck
Piloted this list 2 weeks ago to a 5-0-1 finish, securing first place in the swiss of a GPT and then dropping out because screw 2 byes at a GP I won't go to.
I decided that holding mana open is not part of my agenda when instead I could play powerful cards and disrupt my opponent. And so I did.
UR Twin is a comically bad MU, while RUG Twin is a cakewalk. Them tapping down to play a threat that dies to a myriad of removal all while enabling me to resolve a Liliana makes the MU very easy.
Sidisi looks strange, but she's a beast. Played her as an answer to Abzan, but the Abzan players didn't reach the top tables, so I busily boarded out 1-2 copies every game while demolishing everything.
As for the MUs, I faced Affinity twice, Mono Blue Tron, BUG Control, RUG Twin and UR Twin (which felt like the only hard MU and is incredibly bad. We also drew because we ran out of time Game 3.)
I'll probably run it back tomorrow, cutting 1 Sidisi for Mentor #3 and Urborg for Swamp #2. I really need to be able to cast Liliana under Blood Moon.
You might consider ashiok, nightmare weaver if you want more walkers/threats, your list seems like it could do well with him.
Also, blood moon doesnt turn off urborg, and lands are swamps and all nonbasics (including urborg) are mountains, which is weird, but true)
Im surpised to see people running negate over countersquall, or dispel in the sideboard. Both are good against twin. Additionally, slaughter pact can also be good against them, especially if you have snapcasters.
You might consider ashiok, nightmare weaver if you want more walkers/threats, your list seems like it could do well with him.
Also, blood moon doesnt turn off urborg, and lands are swamps and all nonbasics (including urborg) are mountains, which is weird, but true)
Im surpised to see people running negate over countersquall, or dispel in the sideboard. Both are good against twin. Additionally, slaughter pact can also be good against them, especially if you have snapcasters.
Blood Moon does turn off Urborg ToY. It says so on the Gatherer page for it and my local Lvl 2 confirmed this. So there's that.
I dislike Ashiok. A lot. He doesn't do enough in my opinion.
Slaughter Pact is a fine card, I considered it for the SB, but it's not enough to fix the UR Twin MU by itself.
As for Negate, it's easier to cast Negate than Countersquall when you have basic Plains and Tec Edge in the deck. It's also better than Dispel because I want to bring it in against Mono Blue Tron for instance. I don't want to fight counter wars, because I have no other permission. I want something to counter Blood Moon and Oblivion Stone, not counter other counters.
Thank you for your input, I'll see if Slaughter Pact does enough in testing to warrant it's inclusion.
Does anyone already tried Medling Mage? While playing Inquisition/thoughtseize and sometimes probe, He could be a good "permission". you make them discard a card and blocking them to play the others.
Yea I was thinking something similar. I was back and forth about running esper charm main, which satisfies that to some degree, but I would still want some way to remove artifacts. I've also been leaning away from permission in the main, but it seems like most of the winning decks I've seen are running some number of snares and remands.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
I run a list almost 100% same in the maindeck as the one from the SCG with the difference of using 1x Zealous Persecution in exchange for 1x Slaughter Pact. I really like having at least SOME persmission in the main. For once remand is a cantrip. But mainly you can mindtrick opponents with leaving mana up because they have seen permission and they are forced to play around it. I think it adds power to the deck.
The permission doesn't seem like that big of a deal, but spell snare has so many solid targets in the meta and remand has always been good, but it's even more insane with monastery mentor when you remand your slaughter pact and cast it again on a token with sickness and get 3 prowess triggers. If you had one or two monk tokens from a previous turn, that's a ton of damage in one swing. Can really catch people off guard.
i've been checking this deck for a while, and as soon as i get myself some missing cards i would really like to test this deck. however there's one thing i can't figure out myself:
i mean geist is hard to remove, 4-6 damage guaranteed each turn, while mentor is just 3-4 damage next turn with 1-2 tokens, and you have to cast another 1-2 spells next turn to swing for some decent damage... or am i getting it wrong?
Because some guys did well in some tournaments with Monastery Mentor, and then everyone followed
i've been checking this deck for a while, and as soon as i get myself some missing cards i would really like to test this deck. however there's one thing i can't figure out myself:
i mean geist is hard to remove, 4-6 damage guaranteed each turn, while mentor is just 3-4 damage next turn with 1-2 tokens, and you have to cast another 1-2 spells next turn to swing for some decent damage... or am i getting it wrong?
Because some guys did well in some tournaments with Monastery Mentor, and then everyone followed
That is, of course completely not the case.
Geist needs empty road to attack, he can usually put 0-12 damage before he gets shut down by a blocker or mass removal. Then you definitely need a way of reaching your opponent which is usually done in UWR midrange deck with bolt snap bolt or restoration angels/thundermaw hellkites. In esper colors you can't get this kind of reach with burn spells.
Monastery Mentor leaves scaling tokens behind after he dies, which can attack, block, race etc. Geist leaves nothing on the board after his attack or after he dies.
We play cheap spells anyway and you can end of turn clear the path with removals (which we run 7-8) and generate tokens which can, in your turn, attack for value. Usually a Mentor with 1-2 tokens attacks for WAY more than Geist does on an empty board.
I think that Geist is better suited for a UWR midrange deck or if your meta is filled with control/scapeshift, in the SB of an esper mentor list.
I can elaborate more on the reasons to play Mentor over Geist, but "because pros did it" is not one of them.
i've been checking this deck for a while, and as soon as i get myself some missing cards i would really like to test this deck. however there's one thing i can't figure out myself:
i mean geist is hard to remove, 4-6 damage guaranteed each turn, while mentor is just 3-4 damage next turn with 1-2 tokens, and you have to cast another 1-2 spells next turn to swing for some decent damage... or am i getting it wrong?
Because some guys did well in some tournaments with Monastery Mentor, and then everyone followed
Besides it's not like Geist of Saint Traft is even remotely insane currently.
He dies to pretty much every creature including Snapcaster Mage being played as an Ambush Viper.
If you are happy with dealing your opponent 4 damage once then I advise you to just run Boros Charm instead. It's better at the job than Geist is since it's cheaper and already works on turn 2 and not turn 4.
Monastery Mentor gives you permanent value for doing things you wanted to do anyway and he is actually able to defend you by crapping out tokens. Something that Geist is also pretty bad at.
This isn't a super-fast Delver deck or some UWR deck with burn. This deck is a slower and more controlling. It's not really your gameplan to kill the opponent asap.
I mean you can try out Geist out for yourself and see what I mean. He is only good against decks that don't really have creatures to block them like Tron, Scapeshift, Blue Control decks, etc. but none of them are Tier 1 currently. If those decks are heavily played in your meta though you very well can play him in your sideboard. An unexpected Geist is more powerful anyway
i've been checking this deck for a while, and as soon as i get myself some missing cards i would really like to test this deck. however there's one thing i can't figure out myself:
i mean geist is hard to remove, 4-6 damage guaranteed each turn, while mentor is just 3-4 damage next turn with 1-2 tokens, and you have to cast another 1-2 spells next turn to swing for some decent damage... or am i getting it wrong?
Pros of Mentor over Geist
- Mentor works well with every non-land, non-creature card in your deck (currently, that is 23 lands and 3 Tasigurs for me), Geist needs specific cards (the right removal) at the right time to work well (he is killed by any creature with 2 power or more)
- Mentors get exponentially better the more you have on the field, Geist (being Legendary) gets punished for every other one you draw
- Mentors can completely take over games if you get to untap with them. Geist is consistent damage but takes many turns to do it, and needs to do it on a clear board
- Prowess is extremely underrated in Modern; very few creatures (MS is the only other one I can think of) that is played regularly. This can take people by surprise a lot and win you games because they misplayed.
- Making free chump blocking tokens can not be underrated in this creature heavy meta. Getting 1/1 tokens that can increase in size for casting spells you were going to cast anyways can buy you turns to find your answers or get enough cards in hand to swing for lethal. I dont know how many Goyfs, Tasigurs or Anglers I have chump blocked for turn after turn to stay alive to find answers and win the game.
- Mentor is easier on the mana base, though only barely.
OVerall, I think while comparing them is valid, the playstyle and deck built around them is completely different.
Mentor rewards you for playing any cards, Geist is rewarded by play particular cards. Mentor is kind of like Delver; it synergizes really well with the kind of cards you want to be playing (Serum Visions, Thought Scour, removal, discard etc).
Not sure if it's a mistake or you aren't aware but that's a 61 card list. You actually have 23 lands listed.
4 Monastery Mentor
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Instants (11)
2 Murderous Cut
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
4 Thought Scour
Sorceries (14)
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
4 Serum Visions
3 Thoughtseize
2 Myth Realized
Lands (23)
3 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Flooded Strand
2 Glacial Fortress
1 Godless Shrine
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Island
1 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Batterskull
1 Celestial Purge
2 Countersquall
1 Curse of Death's Hold
1 Disenchant
1 Dispel
1 Slaughter Pact
2 Stony Silence
1 Thoughtseize
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Zealous Persecution
Going against what I said earlier and am trying Myth Realized in place of maindeck permission. The card's been really swingy for me. Sometimes you cast it early and it ends games and other times you topdeck it and hate life. I figured Mana Leak was similar in that regard so the switch was fine, but maybe we have enough threats already and Myth Realized is excessive.
Sideboard's a mess. I'm happy with a lot of the slots, but perhaps Curse of Death's Hold is a little too cute. I'd like to try to fit some Fulminator Mage in there because my meta has quite a bit of Tron, but then maybe I'm better off conceding that it's a bad matchup and focus my slots on where I can still possibly win.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
Lost to Burn and Affinity in rounds 1 and 3, respectively. Burn stomped me in two games. Lingering Souls was a decent wall, but I was unable to get my Timely Reinforcements (I immediately regretted cutting down to two). The Affinity match was much closer and Esper can actually put up a lot of resistance with Snapcaster + removal spells and discard spells to get anything that costs more than one mana (and postboard Zealous Persecution was a huge blowout). Sadly Affinity more threats than I had answers and he won in three. We're definitely a dog to linear aggression but impactful white sideboard cards definitely help. I just wish I drew them
Won against Collected Company Junk (Podless Pod) and Amulet Bloom in rounds 2 and 4, both in three games. The aforementioned removal suite was fantastic at disrupting any infinite life combos and targeted discard and the Mana Leaks were great at stopping Collected Company (that card is super scary. I think it single-handedly revitalized the Pod subset of cards). As for Amulet Bloom, we're very good against the Primeval Titan half of the deck but aren't nearly as good at facing the Hive Mind half. Game two had an interesting game where he resolved a Hive Mind and had to rely on Snapcaster beats without casting any cantrips and he eventually topdecked a Summoner's Pact. Primeval Titan however was very easily stopped by our eight postboard removal spells + Snapcaster. I think he was able to attack exactly once the whole match.
I definitely need more practice with it but the deck felt great. Monastery Mentor was slow but ended games when he was left unanswered and the mix of disruption spells made me feel ready for almost any matchup. I think I'm going back on my initial analysis of maindeck permission (you can't stop the top of their deck and it's nice to have countermagic) but I wish we had a better option that Mana Leak because Path is a huge nombo.
Special thanks to Hakai Studios and SushiOtter for the sig!
Legacy: UR Sneak and Show I UBG Team America I X Metalworker MUD
Modern: UBR Blue Jund I WBX Eldrazi Processors I X Affinity I WRG Nacatl Burn I GR Tron I UBR Grishoalbrand
I think with 4 mentors 4 snapcasters and 2-3 myths Rain of Tears is better than fulminator in this deck
2 Monastery Mentor
4 Lingering Souls
3 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
2 Tasigur, The Golden Fang
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
4 Path To Exile
1 Go For The Throat
1 Hero's Downfall
1 Murderous Cut
4 Serum Visions
4 Thoughtseize
3 Spreading Seas
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
2 Watery Grave
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Tectonic Edge
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Disenchant
3 Timely Reinforcements
1 Batterskull
1 Celestial Purge
3 Negate
1 Spellskite
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Duress
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Stony Silence
I decided that holding mana open is not part of my agenda when instead I could play powerful cards and disrupt my opponent. And so I did.
UR Twin is a comically bad MU, while RUG Twin is a cakewalk. Them tapping down to play a threat that dies to a myriad of removal all while enabling me to resolve a Liliana makes the MU very easy.
Sidisi looks strange, but she's a beast. Played her as an answer to Abzan, but the Abzan players didn't reach the top tables, so I busily boarded out 1-2 copies every game while demolishing everything.
As for the MUs, I faced Affinity twice, Mono Blue Tron, BUG Control, RUG Twin and UR Twin (which felt like the only hard MU and is incredibly bad. We also drew because we ran out of time Game 3.)
I'll probably run it back tomorrow, cutting 1 Sidisi for Mentor #3 and Urborg for Swamp #2. I really need to be able to cast Liliana under Blood Moon.
Also, blood moon doesnt turn off urborg, and lands are swamps and all nonbasics (including urborg) are mountains, which is weird, but true)
Im surpised to see people running negate over countersquall, or dispel in the sideboard. Both are good against twin. Additionally, slaughter pact can also be good against them, especially if you have snapcasters.
Blood Moon does turn off Urborg ToY. It says so on the Gatherer page for it and my local Lvl 2 confirmed this. So there's that.
I dislike Ashiok. A lot. He doesn't do enough in my opinion.
Slaughter Pact is a fine card, I considered it for the SB, but it's not enough to fix the UR Twin MU by itself.
As for Negate, it's easier to cast Negate than Countersquall when you have basic Plains and Tec Edge in the deck. It's also better than Dispel because I want to bring it in against Mono Blue Tron for instance. I don't want to fight counter wars, because I have no other permission. I want something to counter Blood Moon and Oblivion Stone, not counter other counters.
Thank you for your input, I'll see if Slaughter Pact does enough in testing to warrant it's inclusion.
Here's the link.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=83416
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
Because some guys did well in some tournaments with Monastery Mentor, and then everyone followed
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
Geist needs empty road to attack, he can usually put 0-12 damage before he gets shut down by a blocker or mass removal. Then you definitely need a way of reaching your opponent which is usually done in UWR midrange deck with bolt snap bolt or restoration angels/thundermaw hellkites. In esper colors you can't get this kind of reach with burn spells.
Monastery Mentor leaves scaling tokens behind after he dies, which can attack, block, race etc. Geist leaves nothing on the board after his attack or after he dies.
We play cheap spells anyway and you can end of turn clear the path with removals (which we run 7-8) and generate tokens which can, in your turn, attack for value. Usually a Mentor with 1-2 tokens attacks for WAY more than Geist does on an empty board.
I think that Geist is better suited for a UWR midrange deck or if your meta is filled with control/scapeshift, in the SB of an esper mentor list.
I can elaborate more on the reasons to play Mentor over Geist, but "because pros did it" is not one of them.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Besides it's not like Geist of Saint Traft is even remotely insane currently.
He dies to pretty much every creature including Snapcaster Mage being played as an Ambush Viper.
If you are happy with dealing your opponent 4 damage once then I advise you to just run Boros Charm instead. It's better at the job than Geist is since it's cheaper and already works on turn 2 and not turn 4.
Monastery Mentor gives you permanent value for doing things you wanted to do anyway and he is actually able to defend you by crapping out tokens. Something that Geist is also pretty bad at.
This isn't a super-fast Delver deck or some UWR deck with burn. This deck is a slower and more controlling. It's not really your gameplan to kill the opponent asap.
I mean you can try out Geist out for yourself and see what I mean. He is only good against decks that don't really have creatures to block them like Tron, Scapeshift, Blue Control decks, etc. but none of them are Tier 1 currently. If those decks are heavily played in your meta though you very well can play him in your sideboard. An unexpected Geist is more powerful anyway
Pros of Mentor over Geist
- Mentor works well with every non-land, non-creature card in your deck (currently, that is 23 lands and 3 Tasigurs for me), Geist needs specific cards (the right removal) at the right time to work well (he is killed by any creature with 2 power or more)
- Mentors get exponentially better the more you have on the field, Geist (being Legendary) gets punished for every other one you draw
- Mentors can completely take over games if you get to untap with them. Geist is consistent damage but takes many turns to do it, and needs to do it on a clear board
- Prowess is extremely underrated in Modern; very few creatures (MS is the only other one I can think of) that is played regularly. This can take people by surprise a lot and win you games because they misplayed.
- Making free chump blocking tokens can not be underrated in this creature heavy meta. Getting 1/1 tokens that can increase in size for casting spells you were going to cast anyways can buy you turns to find your answers or get enough cards in hand to swing for lethal. I dont know how many Goyfs, Tasigurs or Anglers I have chump blocked for turn after turn to stay alive to find answers and win the game.
- Mentor is easier on the mana base, though only barely.
OVerall, I think while comparing them is valid, the playstyle and deck built around them is completely different.
Mentor rewards you for playing any cards, Geist is rewarded by play particular cards. Mentor is kind of like Delver; it synergizes really well with the kind of cards you want to be playing (Serum Visions, Thought Scour, removal, discard etc).