Thoughtseize can't crew Smuggler's Copter. I haven't tested Seeker or Aetherborn but they are much worse than Sculler when it comes to crewing Copter. But hey I haven't tested Sculler enough yet so instead of theorizing I'm gonna play a ton of matches
You are forgetting that if a creature crews Copter then it is not attacking. To maximize Copter it is much better to play creatures that get value without attacking themselves, for example Tidehollow Sculler or Blade Splicer. Not the case with Gifted Aetherborn or Seeker of the Way. Those other token cards are frankly terrible, especially when we already have Lingering Souls. Perhaps in a deck with Intangible Virtue but not without it. Start // Finish is definitely interesting but it also has CMC 6 for Dark Confidant.
I don't think that planning to use S.Copter as the sole attacker is a viable plan, having your creatures be decent in combat is essential since you might not draw the Copter or get it removed immediately.
An Elspeth or Gideon are probably much better options that the token spells though.
Other Gideon seems like a good option too, it is also more versatile than Blade Splicer in the 3-mana slot. Brimaz is probably one the better 3-mana creatures for this slot as well.
Yup, good points. For the moment I am going to go all-in on Copter as an experiment. I tested Gideon of the Trials and I found it to be fine but generally unexciting. It is definitely good against Death's Shadow though. However it is worse for the singular purpose of crewing Copter so for the moment I am going to continue with Splicer. Same with Brimaz.
playing with budget BW midrange version with skullers, rats and crusaders. can we use Asylum Vizitor, Spirit of Labyrinth or Jotun Grunt as early beaters? as it has been said earlier, there's no Tarmo analogue in BW, but i often want to see a reasonable threat at t2 after t1 disrupt. does copter supposed to fill this role?
If you are on a budget and can't play Dark Confidant, then I would definitely go for 4 Smuggler's Copter. Both let you see extra cards each turn which goes a long way towards beating combo decks. Copter provides a much better clock as well.
@davemo88 very intrigued by your deck(s). I got into Deadguy actually for the legacy version watching some of Jeff Hoogland's videos he posted recently. While he claimed that the deck would not work well in modern, I figured I'd check to see if there was something close at least. Having a deck be cross format playable with some exchanges is my favorite to build. So I think goes without saying the back and forth on the 2 slot option would go away if Stoneforge Mystic got unbanned and throw in a Batterskull and some swords
So provided that won't happen any time soon wanted to see if could give some useful ideas/feedback. Personally I have a feeling 4x copter won't be a good idea. Even though can certainly chuck extra copies to Liliana of the Veil or active Smuggler's Copter, IDK seems like 3x would be a better ceiling. Also if you do go with 4x Tidehollow Sculler I wonder if the discard should be revisited (counting 15 cards total . Personally I think I'd try 3x Liliana's and a Gideon of the Trials at the least. Is there any good all purpose removal card to be played as a Maelstrom Pulse like slot? Vindicate I know is sadly not modern legal, and I like Anguished Unmaking but may be too much life loss. Having something to hit artifacts/enchantments in this kind of deck game 1 is IMO very strong. Though, outside of a resolved Ensnaring Bridge not sure what else would be extremely debilitating in modern. On flipside I like your explanation for Elspeth, Knight-Errant, I never really got to use her before and swinging in with a 5/6 lifelink land is pretty sweet. Between her and Lili you could make a case for Heart of Kiran as a protector and quick game ender (that also dodges bolt).
One card I was curious if you tested is Kaya, Ghost Assassin. Jeff had her in the SB and it turned out to be quite good against grindier matchups and could go toe to toe with JTMS. It also plays well after a turn 3 Liliana of the Veil as can -2 the Kaya and +1 the Lili for a -2 hand opponent and neutral for you. Also it can direct life drain so can get around cards like Worship and Ensnaring Bridge.
One idea for the 2 slot (which should at least be in SB) are a couple of Auriok Champion. First of its extra life gain so you mimimize the pain on both ends. Second its nigh unkillable as ignores Bolt, Terminate, Push, Pulse and if it eats a path that's a win. Third it can hold off Death's Shadow as well as a number of other beaters. Fourth it perfectly complements the heavy token generation this deck hopes to generate and it also helps if opponents goes wide. Fifth it isn't very offensive so its a perfect crew target for copter. As I write this I think I sold myself on 2x of these main hehe. Only question is how difficult the WW especially by turn 2. Without the Pack Rat would it hurt a lot to go down to say 3x Mutavault and add 2nd plains? Then again champion would prefer rats to skullers due to token generation...
I'm not so much claiming that 4 Copter 4 Sculler is the best; I'm just playing a bunch of matches with that configuration and seeing how it goes. I pretty much cut my Pack Rats for Scullers and didn't touch anything else. After just a few matches I already want to go down to 3 Sculler. I still like all 4 Copters though because I want to play it on turn 2 every game. Same thing for the 1 drop discard: want it turn 1 every game. I really like how Sculler plays with Copter but it also plays nicely with Elspeth since she can turn it into a real attacker.
My feeling on Anguished Unmaking is that you can't realistically play more than 1 in your maindeck. However most of the time it will be worse than alternatives since you usually don't need to kill non-creature permanents. When you do need to kill, say, an Ensnaring Bridge, you won't have a good chance to draw it. So you end up with a card that is mostly bad and rarely good. If the metagame was slower and had lots of noncreatures, e.g. full of non-Eldrazi Tron decks, I could see playing a couple. But against Death's Shadow, Eldrazi Tron, Storm, Affinity, Burn, Collected Company, etc it's just too clunky.
Unfortunately Kaya Ghost Assassin is not legal in Modern. It does look pretty sweet though.
Auriok Champion is potentially a great metagame call. It is really bad against Eldrazi Tron and Affinity but great against Burn and Death's Shadow. I think I'd rather sideboard Mirran Crusader but not sure, haven't tested either one.
My point about 4 copters was more a feel given it can't attack by itself. I could picture the 2-3 copter opening hand with little else going on and have a sad mulligan. But if your testing is showing its working then that has more validity than my prediction. I will admit it is a fun card to have out and swing/loot with so I see it as a card one may accidentally overuse due to the intangibles. I'll try 4 myself in testing as well and compare to 3.
Yeah anguished I can't see more than 1 main deck. I did a quick crosscheck of card library outside of the 4cc Utter End only other card similar was Mortify, and really only good if enchantments became an issue. I think basically I wish we had access to a card like Kolaghan's Command (btw forgot Aushiok dodges this too)
I actually realized after I posted I forgot that Auriok Champion is easily shot down by Walking Ballista. Against heavy Eldrazi meta its definately bad but solid against Burn/DS/Jund/Delver. One thing I did realize on positive end about Auriok is it also stops Saheeli combo and hurts similar strategies like Tezzerator. Maybe seeing it as a one of main deck.
Kaya I totally messed up lol . Forget sometimes that otherwise new cards in sets like conspiracy are only legacy legal. Happened before when was thinking of trying out Karlov of the Ghost Council in soul sisters.
So has anything not been working well in the new copter focused build so far? Also out of curiosity as I never played it before when using rats do you often wait till have 5 mana (outside of aggro decks) so can play and activate immediately?
Hello everyone, I didnt post for some months in this thread but I keep reading it every week.
I've played Deadguy ale in modern for a long time, at least 3 diferent builds. Last week I was thinking in taking another direction, for fun and to try new cards I tought in splashing a third color...
I know i wanna keep playing Lingering souls, discard spells, and good removal.
So there is Mardu, Esper and Abzan.
Abzan is tier 1 I think, pretty straightforward midrange strategy, I checked some Abzan soul lists, there isnt a single one without goyf so im out.
Mardu looks very nice, you got Bolt, helix, more planeswalkers, and Kolaghan's Command
Esper looks pretty solid too, snapcaster, C.command, Esper charm is beautifull, the new Ancestral vision...
So I decided to try a Esper list, throwed some cards I like and create this:
Its the first time I do not included liliana in my first version of some deck (Im a lili fanboy)
I picked carefully my creatures, hard to kill via protection (4 colores with sword), hexproof, then tokens and snapcaster as the only target for enemy removal.
Please let me know your thoughts...
Some cards I could be missing: Colective brutality, Sorins, Elspeth, Counters?, spell's queller, lots of etc
I just haven't played enough matches to know. I think the Copter build is much better than the Rat build for turns 2-4 but you do lose a bit on turns 5+. That's pretty much what I wanted. I think the deck already has a good enough late game with Lingering Souls, Copter, Elspeth, and manlands so it is better to try to have the best possible early turns.
I found that going t2 Rat, t3 Rat is just not happening in a field of Eldrazi Tron and Death's Shadow. Rat is too slow and expensive to compete with their huge creatures and cheap removal. I'd much rather go t2 Copter t3 Sculler against Storm as well.
When I had 4 Rat, I would usually play it at the first opportunity. There are definitely times when it was best to wait for 5 mana, but a lot of the time I'd end up playing it and then attack with Rat + Mutavault or make a Rat the next turn. Honestly the more I've played with it the more I've found that finding the 3 mana to make a Rat is hard, especially against Death's Shadow. You make a 2/2, they play a 4/5 and 9/9. It ain't great haha
Hello everyone, I didnt post for some months in this thread but I keep reading it every week.
I've played Deadguy ale in modern for a long time, at least 3 diferent builds. Last week I was thinking in taking another direction, for fun and to try new cards I tought in splashing a third color...
I know i wanna keep playing Lingering souls, discard spells, and good removal.
So there is Mardu, Esper and Abzan.
Abzan is tier 1 I think, pretty straightforward midrange strategy, I checked some Abzan soul lists, there isnt a single one without goyf so im out.
Mardu looks very nice, you got Bolt, helix, more planeswalkers, and Kolaghan's Command
Esper looks pretty solid too, snapcaster, C.command, Esper charm is beautifull, the new Ancestral vision...
So I decided to try a Esper list, throwed some cards I like and create this:
Its the first time I do not included liliana in my first version of some deck (Im a lili fanboy)
I picked carefully my creatures, hard to kill via protection (4 colores with sword), hexproof, then tokens and snapcaster as the only target for enemy removal.
Please let me know your thoughts...
Some cards I could be missing: Colective brutality, Sorins, Elspeth, Counters?, spell's queller, lots of etc
Hey there, I am playing an Esper midrange version myself for about a year now. First of all, there is a separate Esper thread in the developing competitive section, so you are probably better off posting your list there, but here is some "first aid" advice:
- First question: What type of game do you want to play? Your list is somewhere between midrange and control. IMO, it is better to dedicate to one strategy. Cryptic command and ancestral vision are both really good cards, but only become powerful in the lategame (even though I see the Cryptic - Geist synergy). If you want more fuel in the lategame, I would add more Esper Charm or look into something like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, both serving an additional purpose (hand disruption respectively more threats). Cryptic also makes your manabase very difficult and painful: You want black on T1 for discard, double white for Crusader or BWU for Charm on T3 and triple blue for Cryptic on T4.
- If you want to pursue the Geist of Saint Traft and Mirran Crusader midrange plan, both of them literally scream for Elspeth, Knight-Errant. She also works well with Snappies or Shambling Vent. Another interesting card I have yet to test in conjunction with Geist and Crusader is Dusk // Dawn. Probably a sideboard card, though. The equipment package is cute, but probably to slow in most games.
- If you play Esper Charm, not playing Lili is the right choice I feel. They do not go together well.
- Counters and Spell Queller are sideboard material against combo and control (at least in a midrange deck). Collective Brutality is really flexible. I play it as a 1of in most of my lists.
- Another card to consider is Serum Visions. Reduces mulligans, shuffels away useles discard in the lategame, go well with Snaps and Tasigur, etc...
I've been using the seer with the copper. I like the fact that I can crew the copper with however many seers I want, or when my life total gets low I can just use the seers as blockers. Probably not quite as good as bob, but it's been working well for me
Hello everyone, I didnt post for some months in this thread but I keep reading it every week.
I've played Deadguy ale in modern for a long time, at least 3 diferent builds. Last week I was thinking in taking another direction, for fun and to try new cards I tought in splashing a third color...
I know i wanna keep playing Lingering souls, discard spells, and good removal.
So there is Mardu, Esper and Abzan.
Abzan is tier 1 I think, pretty straightforward midrange strategy, I checked some Abzan soul lists, there isnt a single one without goyf so im out.
Mardu looks very nice, you got Bolt, helix, more planeswalkers, and Kolaghan's Command
Esper looks pretty solid too, snapcaster, C.command, Esper charm is beautifull, the new Ancestral vision...
So I decided to try a Esper list, throwed some cards I like and create this:
Its the first time I do not included liliana in my first version of some deck (Im a lili fanboy)
I picked carefully my creatures, hard to kill via protection (4 colores with sword), hexproof, then tokens and snapcaster as the only target for enemy removal.
Please let me know your thoughts...
Some cards I could be missing: Colective brutality, Sorins, Elspeth, Counters?, spell's queller, lots of etc
Hey there, I am playing an Esper midrange version myself for about a year now. First of all, there is a separate Esper thread in the developing competitive section, so you are probably better off posting your list there, but here is some "first aid" advice:
- First question: What type of game do you want to play? Your list is somewhere between midrange and control. IMO, it is better to dedicate to one strategy. Cryptic command and ancestral vision are both really good cards, but only become powerful in the lategame (even though I see the Cryptic - Geist synergy). If you want more fuel in the lategame, I would add more Esper Charm or look into something like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, both serving an additional purpose (hand disruption respectively more threats). Cryptic also makes your manabase very difficult and painful: You want black on T1 for discard, double white for Crusader or BWU for Charm on T3 and triple blue for Cryptic on T4.
- If you want to pursue the Geist of Saint Traft and Mirran Crusader midrange plan, both of them literally scream for Elspeth, Knight-Errant. She also works well with Snappies or Shambling Vent. Another interesting card I have yet to test in conjunction with Geist and Crusader is Dusk // Dawn. Probably a sideboard card, though. The equipment package is cute, but probably to slow in most games.
- If you play Esper Charm, not playing Lili is the right choice I feel. They do not go together well.
- Counters and Spell Queller are sideboard material against combo and control (at least in a midrange deck). Collective Brutality is really flexible. I play it as a 1of in most of my lists.
- Another card to consider is Serum Visions. Reduces mulligans, shuffels away useles discard in the lategame, go well with Snaps and Tasigur, etc...
I hope I could help a little
Thanks a lot, I'm still working on the list, will consider all you said
Could I see yours?
I'm looking for a midrange deck, not control
I beat Slivers, GR Valakut, and Grixis Death's Shadow and then split the finals with Burn.
R1 - Slivers - lose die roll
g1 I had a ton of removal into Dark Confidant and Smuggler's Copter. Confidant + Copter lets you see a ton of cards! I killed all his stuff and eventually beat him down with Copter and Lingering Souls.
g2 I boarded in Damnation among other things. Once again I had a bunch of removal including Damnation and he never really got off the ground.
R2 - GR Valakut - win die roll
g1 I had Inquisition into Tidehollow Sculler into Sin Collector. That was plenty to slow him down. He was able to resolve a Primeval Titan but I could kill it with Liliana and attack for lethal.
g2 I had t2 Sculler into t3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar into t4 Smallpox, which I activated a Mutavault to sacrifice instead of my other creatures. It was an interesting game but once again he died to random beats before drawing anything good.
R3 - Grixis Death's Shadow - win die roll
g1 I got stuck on 2 lands but had a bunch of removal. I finally hit my third land drop to start casting Lingering Souls. Eventually I also played Elspeth and he died.
g2 I mulled to 5 and it was still close but he took the game.
g3 I had an opening hand with 3 Liliana of the Veil and was able to topdeck Elspeth for the win. All 3 games were quite long and fun to play.
R4 - Burn - ID
we just split. Burn is close to 50/50 anyway and mostly depends on if I draw Shambling Vent or Collective Brutality.
I kinda write the Slivers match off because it's not that popular a deck and the opponent wasn't playing very well. However the Valakut and Death's Shadow matches are against two of the best players at my shop. They regularly go to GPs and stuff so they are pretty good. I think Grixis Death's Shadow is a legitimately good matchup and could be even better if my sideboard wasn't so wonky. GR Valakut is definitely better with this version than the Rat version because of all the extra discard. I cut the Rats pretty much specifically because of decks like Grixis, Affinity, and Eldrazi Tron; so far so good.
No major conclusions yet but I think this version is quite good. I only played the Sin Collector and the maindeck Collective Brutality because I couldn't find third and fourth Scullers. Not sure yet if 3 or 4 Scullers is right but I want to at least try 4.
Nice, I think first thing I noticed was "Slivers in modern?". I think 3 skullers are good and 4 is option. I'd probably like keeping 3 skullers / 2 brutality so can have a chance game 1 against burn or equally aggressive deck. One thing I was wondering about is if you've had any issues with a Chalice hitting board on one in this configuration. I presume you'd try to have them discard it ASAP so doesn't hit, but I count 14 cards that would be turned off including the removal and discard. Yeah makes the copter strategy wiser but still bad to have so many dead cards. Btw I don't think Sin collector is good here as you have no blink effects nor in a chord/coco shell.
I'm hoping to have last pieces to sleeve up the list, I'm gonna try Auriok Champion in Blade Slicer slot and as noted 3 Tidehollow Sculler + 2 Collective Brutality and Gideon of the Trials over 4th Liliana (I don't have a 4th anyway).
I'd like to try to help some ideas on sideboard but not sure what are the worst matchups to shore up. I'd assume it would be go wide strategies, blood moon decks, and burn. I'd presume most control matchups are good if not great (albeit slow victory), and can out value/discard the midrange. Can you provide a list of like "good / medium / bad" matchups in your experience?
I agree about the Sin Collector. I only played it for lack of Scullers. I think Sculler is great because it's fine on turn 2 and on turn 3 as a follow-up to Copter. Sin Collector can do a crappy impression of that.
Chalice on 1 is definitely a disaster. Another reason why Eldrazi Tron is a truly horrible matchup. In game one you just have to hope to hit it with discard or that they don't have it. In game 2 my sideboard only has Engineered Explosives. I guess an Anguished Unmaking seems ok to board in against Eldrazi Tron to hit big guys and Chalice.
There are so many decks in Modern that it's tough to make an exhaustive list. Here's a try:
Grixis Death's Shadow - good
Affinity - good
CoCo decks - good
Storm - good
Jund / Abzan - good (even better with Pack Rat)
Ad Nauseam - medium / good
Burn - medium / good depending on # of Collective Brutality: 1 medium; 3 good.
Dredge - medium / medium bad
Valakut - medium / medium bad
UW Control - bad
Eldrazi Tron - bad
Normal Tron - bad
The maindeck is great against all the good matchups. You can do a lot with the sideboard to make Burn, Dredge, and Valakut good matchups, as well as normal Tron to a lesser degree. I don't think there is a good way to beat UW Control or Eldrazi Tron.
The Blade Splicer is also a big question mark. I played it because it's a good Copter follow-up but I don't have strong feelings about it.
Thanks for tabulating the list of good/medium/bad matchups, that helps out a lot. Glad to see a deck finally have affinity in the "good" section, feels like every other deck I look into/build has it as either bad or worst lol. So overall I think this is pretty good and there are some similarities in the poorer matchups, mainly they either are graveyard interacting or are high mana/land based strategies. I crosschecked lists on mtg-goldfish meta to make sure wasn't too far off, gladly I did as I see W/U control has moved away from Celestial Colonnade and Snapcaster Mage to more planeswalker focus with Jace/Gideons. So below is a list of cards I thought of so far that could help in some/all of the troublesome matchups:
Surgical Extraction : This is actually a 4 of in my legacy list, though of course there it helps to provide a turn 0 card and can hose the reanimator strategies and dredge. A key thing to remember with this card is unlike a card like Relic of Progenitus this card can hit opponents hand as well. So it has a Cabal Therapy like play where you can turn 1 discard them and if see 2-3 of same card take it then surgical and they lose them all. This is a strong 3-4 SB card (albeit a bit pricey these days), and can work in many matchups as it feeds of our discard. A side suggestion would be to consider a Ghost Quarter in the main and one in SB to complement so can also help against tron lands and valakut itself. Also helps to make dredge matchup swing more in your favor and can either remove the Conflagrate to remove their interaction or their dredgers or even Prized Amalgam to weaken their force. Also a great card vs. combo as if you catch a piece in their hand now its gone permanently. To save life we have black mana so later we could just pay it. Lastly this lets you see opponents entire deck so can see how they SB'd against you and any tricks up their sleeve
Fulminator Mage: not as great as in decks that can replay their creatures from grave (though more on that later), this is best other option to go after tron pieces in our colors if not using ghostly quarter. Not as effective on Eldrazi tron as they care less, but this plus sugical is very strong. Since we don't have tutors going to need 2-3 copies to make worthwhile.
Solemnity: this is one of two decks I have that I can see using in modern as SB. On negative side we have no ramp so its coming down turn 3 at earliest. Though we can use discard to mediate the impact of it missing early turns. First off this card doesn't hurt us, though it doesn't directly help us either (later will note a possible idea). This turns off future chalices, ballistas, EE, ratchet bomb, and also turns off vizier combo, wrecks infect, disables Gavony Township too. Do need to be careful not to let opponent abuse the effect. Other main advantage over the next card is that as an enchantment its very likely to stick around for a while if it sticks. I think this could even be a good 1 of (multiples don't stack) as long as it negates enough things. Does not affect planeswalkers though, so both good as ours are fine but bad as doesn't help vs Ugin/Jace/Gideon/Karn. Which is why next card may be better...
Vampire Hexmage: I actually double checked this was modern legal, kind of surprised don't see more. Used in legacy lands decks. This card seems surprisingly good for us (even more so if you are someone that wants to run Hidden Stockpile). I even just realized it also has first strike so it's even a mini Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, could be useful as bob replacement against things like burn. So I thought of this thinking about solemnity and chalice. This card is great as can be used after something hits the board. But for us its also a creature we can crew with, sack and powers push as well. Some funny situations I thought of: 1) Opponent gets chalice on 1, you play and sack Hexmage making future chalices countered and making ballista unplayable . 2) Opponent plays a Karn Liberated, you have hexmage out. If he doesn't immediately hold priority and use karn's ability you kill karn. If he does use either can in response sac and kill Karn. Either way he dies. She kills ANY planeswalker, so also strong vs U/W. If you really wanted to could even try maindecking but I'd likely refrain unless have something to use her with. For the lulz....
So if don't feel SB overall is needed much for most matchups could consider going with a combo SB option. Using either or both of cards above with Dark Depths for the ultimate clock. Token is black so all is dust does get it but most other removal short of path does not....and we have plenty of discard. May just be worth the tears to try it out lol.
Humility: NOTE: looked up not modern legal.... what was gonna say: {while a bit slow this was the most potent card I could think of vs the actual Eldrazis. Since we have both elspeth and lingering souls we can easily outswarm. Checking rules vehicles do become 1/1 so would want to take copters out, however man lands do retain their normal sizes. Swing a 2/3 Shambling vents into what used to be Endbringer Reason I suggested this also is outside of discard + surgical this also can stop Primeval Titan. "That's some scary 1/1 vanilla titan you got there." Also Elspeth's pump ability still works and can put our 1/1's (or man lands) over opponents creatures. This card is pretty evil and I refuse to use it in EDH, but here seems appropriate. Lastly it can also be used to turn of Bobs so they don't kill us. Could be fun as a 1 of.}
Mirran Crusader: Know you already mentioned this was something you wanted to use in SB. Obviously great vs abzan/DS, then realized this on three and elspeth on 4, give +3/3 flying...10 damage swing in the air...possible one shot to DS. That interaction definitely makes this better here than in average list I've seen.
Disenchant: Yeah the classic, but main idea is something to take out enchantments/artifacts that doesn't get stopped with a chalice on 1. Not sure if there is something at same CC for similar effect. Could see either a 2 of, or 1 and 1 Anguished Unmaking
Liliana, the Last Hope: If using hexmage/crusader/fulminator in board this can help provide some nice resurrection for drawn out matches. Also works well with our looting filling up the yard. The +1 can also be good against the random wide weenie strategies or cards like vizier. Ultimate provides another wincon if we can just stabilize and protect. Seems like a good 1 of in SB, or depending on meta instead of another lili in main
Linvala, Keeper of Silence: see you already have in, but I agree its worth a slot. Especially that humility can't be used
I think those are some good ideas for now. I particularly like the hexmage tech, mainly for the planeswalker counter if nothing else.
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Even some token producing spells can do the trick, like Raise the Alarm/Start // Finish (or Gather the Townsfolk for "fateful hour").
Another potential 2-drop can be Asylum Visitor which can be a harder-hitting backup Bob and can be "madnessed in" with Liliana as well.
edit: Here is the maindeck I'm testing:
4x Mutavault
4x Shambling Vent
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Marsh Flats
3x Godless Shrine
3x Swamp
1x Plains
1x Blade Splicer
4x Dark Confidant
4x Tidehollow Sculler
Instant
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery
3x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact
4x Smuggler's Copter
An Elspeth or Gideon are probably much better options that the token spells though.
Other Gideon seems like a good option too, it is also more versatile than Blade Splicer in the 3-mana slot.
Brimaz is probably one the better 3-mana creatures for this slot as well.
So provided that won't happen any time soon wanted to see if could give some useful ideas/feedback. Personally I have a feeling 4x copter won't be a good idea. Even though can certainly chuck extra copies to Liliana of the Veil or active Smuggler's Copter, IDK seems like 3x would be a better ceiling. Also if you do go with 4x Tidehollow Sculler I wonder if the discard should be revisited (counting 15 cards total . Personally I think I'd try 3x Liliana's and a Gideon of the Trials at the least. Is there any good all purpose removal card to be played as a Maelstrom Pulse like slot? Vindicate I know is sadly not modern legal, and I like Anguished Unmaking but may be too much life loss. Having something to hit artifacts/enchantments in this kind of deck game 1 is IMO very strong. Though, outside of a resolved Ensnaring Bridge not sure what else would be extremely debilitating in modern. On flipside I like your explanation for Elspeth, Knight-Errant, I never really got to use her before and swinging in with a 5/6 lifelink land is pretty sweet. Between her and Lili you could make a case for Heart of Kiran as a protector and quick game ender (that also dodges bolt).
One card I was curious if you tested is Kaya, Ghost Assassin. Jeff had her in the SB and it turned out to be quite good against grindier matchups and could go toe to toe with JTMS. It also plays well after a turn 3 Liliana of the Veil as can -2 the Kaya and +1 the Lili for a -2 hand opponent and neutral for you. Also it can direct life drain so can get around cards like Worship and Ensnaring Bridge.
One idea for the 2 slot (which should at least be in SB) are a couple of Auriok Champion. First of its extra life gain so you mimimize the pain on both ends. Second its nigh unkillable as ignores Bolt, Terminate, Push, Pulse and if it eats a path that's a win. Third it can hold off Death's Shadow as well as a number of other beaters. Fourth it perfectly complements the heavy token generation this deck hopes to generate and it also helps if opponents goes wide. Fifth it isn't very offensive so its a perfect crew target for copter. As I write this I think I sold myself on 2x of these main hehe. Only question is how difficult the WW especially by turn 2. Without the Pack Rat would it hurt a lot to go down to say 3x Mutavault and add 2nd plains? Then again champion would prefer rats to skullers due to token generation...
My feeling on Anguished Unmaking is that you can't realistically play more than 1 in your maindeck. However most of the time it will be worse than alternatives since you usually don't need to kill non-creature permanents. When you do need to kill, say, an Ensnaring Bridge, you won't have a good chance to draw it. So you end up with a card that is mostly bad and rarely good. If the metagame was slower and had lots of noncreatures, e.g. full of non-Eldrazi Tron decks, I could see playing a couple. But against Death's Shadow, Eldrazi Tron, Storm, Affinity, Burn, Collected Company, etc it's just too clunky.
Unfortunately Kaya Ghost Assassin is not legal in Modern. It does look pretty sweet though.
Auriok Champion is potentially a great metagame call. It is really bad against Eldrazi Tron and Affinity but great against Burn and Death's Shadow. I think I'd rather sideboard Mirran Crusader but not sure, haven't tested either one.
Yeah anguished I can't see more than 1 main deck. I did a quick crosscheck of card library outside of the 4cc Utter End only other card similar was Mortify, and really only good if enchantments became an issue. I think basically I wish we had access to a card like Kolaghan's Command (btw forgot Aushiok dodges this too)
I actually realized after I posted I forgot that Auriok Champion is easily shot down by Walking Ballista. Against heavy Eldrazi meta its definately bad but solid against Burn/DS/Jund/Delver. One thing I did realize on positive end about Auriok is it also stops Saheeli combo and hurts similar strategies like Tezzerator. Maybe seeing it as a one of main deck.
Kaya I totally messed up lol . Forget sometimes that otherwise new cards in sets like conspiracy are only legacy legal. Happened before when was thinking of trying out Karlov of the Ghost Council in soul sisters.
So has anything not been working well in the new copter focused build so far? Also out of curiosity as I never played it before when using rats do you often wait till have 5 mana (outside of aggro decks) so can play and activate immediately?
I've played Deadguy ale in modern for a long time, at least 3 diferent builds. Last week I was thinking in taking another direction, for fun and to try new cards I tought in splashing a third color...
I know i wanna keep playing Lingering souls, discard spells, and good removal.
So there is Mardu, Esper and Abzan.
Abzan is tier 1 I think, pretty straightforward midrange strategy, I checked some Abzan soul lists, there isnt a single one without goyf so im out.
Mardu looks very nice, you got Bolt, helix, more planeswalkers, and Kolaghan's Command
Esper looks pretty solid too, snapcaster, C.command, Esper charm is beautifull, the new Ancestral vision...
So I decided to try a Esper list, throwed some cards I like and create this:
2 Geist of Saint traft
2 Mirran Crusader
4 Lingering souls
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
3 Fatal push
3 Path to exile
3 Cryptic command
2 Esper charm
4 Ancestral Vision
Weapon Pack (4)
2 steelshaper's gift
1 Sword of war and peace
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Its the first time I do not included liliana in my first version of some deck (Im a lili fanboy)
I picked carefully my creatures, hard to kill via protection (4 colores with sword), hexproof, then tokens and snapcaster as the only target for enemy removal.
Please let me know your thoughts...
Some cards I could be missing: Colective brutality, Sorins, Elspeth, Counters?, spell's queller, lots of etc
I just haven't played enough matches to know. I think the Copter build is much better than the Rat build for turns 2-4 but you do lose a bit on turns 5+. That's pretty much what I wanted. I think the deck already has a good enough late game with Lingering Souls, Copter, Elspeth, and manlands so it is better to try to have the best possible early turns.
I found that going t2 Rat, t3 Rat is just not happening in a field of Eldrazi Tron and Death's Shadow. Rat is too slow and expensive to compete with their huge creatures and cheap removal. I'd much rather go t2 Copter t3 Sculler against Storm as well.
When I had 4 Rat, I would usually play it at the first opportunity. There are definitely times when it was best to wait for 5 mana, but a lot of the time I'd end up playing it and then attack with Rat + Mutavault or make a Rat the next turn. Honestly the more I've played with it the more I've found that finding the 3 mana to make a Rat is hard, especially against Death's Shadow. You make a 2/2, they play a 4/5 and 9/9. It ain't great haha
Hey there, I am playing an Esper midrange version myself for about a year now. First of all, there is a separate Esper thread in the developing competitive section, so you are probably better off posting your list there, but here is some "first aid" advice:
- First question: What type of game do you want to play? Your list is somewhere between midrange and control. IMO, it is better to dedicate to one strategy. Cryptic command and ancestral vision are both really good cards, but only become powerful in the lategame (even though I see the Cryptic - Geist synergy). If you want more fuel in the lategame, I would add more Esper Charm or look into something like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, both serving an additional purpose (hand disruption respectively more threats). Cryptic also makes your manabase very difficult and painful: You want black on T1 for discard, double white for Crusader or BWU for Charm on T3 and triple blue for Cryptic on T4.
- If you want to pursue the Geist of Saint Traft and Mirran Crusader midrange plan, both of them literally scream for Elspeth, Knight-Errant. She also works well with Snappies or Shambling Vent. Another interesting card I have yet to test in conjunction with Geist and Crusader is Dusk // Dawn. Probably a sideboard card, though. The equipment package is cute, but probably to slow in most games.
- If you play Esper Charm, not playing Lili is the right choice I feel. They do not go together well.
- Counters and Spell Queller are sideboard material against combo and control (at least in a midrange deck). Collective Brutality is really flexible. I play it as a 1of in most of my lists.
- Another card to consider is Serum Visions. Reduces mulligans, shuffels away useles discard in the lategame, go well with Snaps and Tasigur, etc...
I hope I could help a little
Or would it be too much life-loss with Bob and Thoughtseize ?
Thanks a lot, I'm still working on the list, will consider all you said
Could I see yours?
I'm looking for a midrange deck, not control
4x Mutavault
4x Shambling Vent
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Marsh Flats
3x Godless Shrine
3x Swamp
1x Plains
Creature
1x Blade Splicer
4x Dark Confidant
2x Tidehollow Sculler
1x Sin Collector
3x Fatal Push
4x Path to Exile
Sorcery
3x Thoughtseize
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
1x Collective Brutality
Planeswalker
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4x Liliana of the Veil
Artifact
4x Smuggler's Copter
1x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Gideon of the Trials
1x Fatal Push
1x Shadow of Doubt
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Celestial Purge
1x Pithing Needle
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Smallpox
1x Surgical Extraction
1x Grafdigger's Cage
R1 - Slivers - lose die roll
g1 I had a ton of removal into Dark Confidant and Smuggler's Copter. Confidant + Copter lets you see a ton of cards! I killed all his stuff and eventually beat him down with Copter and Lingering Souls.
g2 I boarded in Damnation among other things. Once again I had a bunch of removal including Damnation and he never really got off the ground.
R2 - GR Valakut - win die roll
g1 I had Inquisition into Tidehollow Sculler into Sin Collector. That was plenty to slow him down. He was able to resolve a Primeval Titan but I could kill it with Liliana and attack for lethal.
g2 I had t2 Sculler into t3 Thalia, Heretic Cathar into t4 Smallpox, which I activated a Mutavault to sacrifice instead of my other creatures. It was an interesting game but once again he died to random beats before drawing anything good.
R3 - Grixis Death's Shadow - win die roll
g1 I got stuck on 2 lands but had a bunch of removal. I finally hit my third land drop to start casting Lingering Souls. Eventually I also played Elspeth and he died.
g2 I mulled to 5 and it was still close but he took the game.
g3 I had an opening hand with 3 Liliana of the Veil and was able to topdeck Elspeth for the win. All 3 games were quite long and fun to play.
R4 - Burn - ID
we just split. Burn is close to 50/50 anyway and mostly depends on if I draw Shambling Vent or Collective Brutality.
I kinda write the Slivers match off because it's not that popular a deck and the opponent wasn't playing very well. However the Valakut and Death's Shadow matches are against two of the best players at my shop. They regularly go to GPs and stuff so they are pretty good. I think Grixis Death's Shadow is a legitimately good matchup and could be even better if my sideboard wasn't so wonky. GR Valakut is definitely better with this version than the Rat version because of all the extra discard. I cut the Rats pretty much specifically because of decks like Grixis, Affinity, and Eldrazi Tron; so far so good.
No major conclusions yet but I think this version is quite good. I only played the Sin Collector and the maindeck Collective Brutality because I couldn't find third and fourth Scullers. Not sure yet if 3 or 4 Scullers is right but I want to at least try 4.
I'm hoping to have last pieces to sleeve up the list, I'm gonna try Auriok Champion in Blade Slicer slot and as noted 3 Tidehollow Sculler + 2 Collective Brutality and Gideon of the Trials over 4th Liliana (I don't have a 4th anyway).
I'd like to try to help some ideas on sideboard but not sure what are the worst matchups to shore up. I'd assume it would be go wide strategies, blood moon decks, and burn. I'd presume most control matchups are good if not great (albeit slow victory), and can out value/discard the midrange. Can you provide a list of like "good / medium / bad" matchups in your experience?
Chalice on 1 is definitely a disaster. Another reason why Eldrazi Tron is a truly horrible matchup. In game one you just have to hope to hit it with discard or that they don't have it. In game 2 my sideboard only has Engineered Explosives. I guess an Anguished Unmaking seems ok to board in against Eldrazi Tron to hit big guys and Chalice.
There are so many decks in Modern that it's tough to make an exhaustive list. Here's a try:
Grixis Death's Shadow - good
Affinity - good
CoCo decks - good
Storm - good
Jund / Abzan - good (even better with Pack Rat)
Ad Nauseam - medium / good
Burn - medium / good depending on # of Collective Brutality: 1 medium; 3 good.
Dredge - medium / medium bad
Valakut - medium / medium bad
UW Control - bad
Eldrazi Tron - bad
Normal Tron - bad
The maindeck is great against all the good matchups. You can do a lot with the sideboard to make Burn, Dredge, and Valakut good matchups, as well as normal Tron to a lesser degree. I don't think there is a good way to beat UW Control or Eldrazi Tron.
The Blade Splicer is also a big question mark. I played it because it's a good Copter follow-up but I don't have strong feelings about it.
I think those are some good ideas for now. I particularly like the hexmage tech, mainly for the planeswalker counter if nothing else.