Would you guys sideboard Utter End if Ugin, Karn, Ahiok and Gideon show their mugs often in your meta?
I considered Hero's Downfall but Utter End has much more potential utility where Downfall would be notthing but Murder most of the time.
I'm on utter end. Can help as 1 of, i like it honestly even if 4 mana are a lot.
Btw an opinion: i'm feelinf 2 Bloodbaron are too manys. 1x can be a good idea?
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My Decks on Paper: UWR Control/Midrange/Delver UWR Twin Miss you GBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only) GWAura Hexproof GWHatebears
Sirius, so if you had bobs back and knowing what you know now, what would be the list you would use? I saw you put back In lingering souls, but what made you leave out urborg and keep in so many basic lands? And no slaughter pact, or dismember/ darkblast?
12 discard and 12 removal is perfectly fine with Bob either eating removal and making sure what you discard is meaningful, or drawing more cards so we always have removal. Liliana is brutal. Souls interact very well with Lilly and Rat. Bob interacts greatly with Rat. Sorin makes the life-loss pretty meaningless and Persecutor is the best black bomb. It can't be blocked profitably in the current meta and because of that, it drops them to zero in a heartbeat.
I dropped Victim of Night for Souls because Geth's Verdict has tested better mainboard than Victim. In turn I'm deciding whether to keep Go for the Throat in the board or remove them for Victim.
I don't run Dismember or Pact because Tasigor and Burn are too prevalent in my meta, and neither kill Persecutor.
Would you guys sideboard Utter End if Ugin, Karn, Ahiok and Gideon show their mugs often in your meta?
I considered Hero's Downfall but Utter End has much more potential utility where Downfall would be notthing but Murder most of the time.
I'm on utter end. Can help as 1 of, i like it honestly even if 4 mana are a lot.
Btw an opinion: i'm feelinf 2 Bloodbaron are too manys. 1x can be a good idea?
Yes, if Abzan Company and Junk aren't the predominant force at your meta, the Baron isn't all that good. He's amazing because his protections make rock matches a bye most of the time, but otherwise, play more relevant hate.
I'm considering the following sideboard for my next event:
Is set in stone pretty much, the remaining 3 cards are the floaties. Curse of Death's Hold Is the bee's knees vs Twin and can neuter Tokens, Elves and Soul Sisters if you remove their anthem effects with removal/disenchant. It can also prevent Affinity from ever recovering after a blow-out. Zealous Persecution is the most likely cause of said blow-outs, but it needs to be timed perfectly instead of being a constant effect. Phyrexian Revoker because I feel Needle, while good, doesn't actually put any pressure to Tron, it just tells them "I saw your hand, now you need to draw another of your plethora of unfair cards to **** my ***** up". Needle could push in the damage we need to actually win. Utter End because sometimes you just really need to remove something. Blood Baron of Vizkopa because it destroys Rock decks and you never know when they'll try to make a resurgence. Surgical Extraction because sometimes, all we need to win, is getting rid of a specific card.
I'll give Extraction a try next tournament because getting rid of Ugin, Karn or Twin before they get to exist is pretty tempting and I have a lot of discard, but I believe those 3 spots and maybe even the 3 dedicated to extra removal are all flex spots that must be adapted to each of our metas.
I'm not sure I like the new Liliana for this deck. It falls in the 3 CMC spot which already has a few good candidates. Many of our creatures are tokens (Spirits, Rats, potentially Golems) and will not trigger her to flip. Similarly, they cannot be targets for her -X when she is flipped, because ain't no tokens in the graveyard.
On the other hand, she can get Dark Confidant, Pack Rat, or Tidehollow Sculler back on the turn she flips. She looks to have good interactions with Tidehollow Sculler in particular, so maybe there's something there.
I'll definitely splash Red in the future but for now I'm sticking with BW since I'm still rather new to the deck and I want to find the optimal BW build before attempting splashes.
If you try Red let us know how it went - I'm really interested to find out if it's worth it.
I will definitely be running Lilianas when I get a hold of them, in the meantime any suggestions for improvements?
Also, a question for experienced players of the deck: what's your strategy for beating Amulet Bloom? My approach has been to try to hit their Amulets and Summer Blooms with discard spells, hold up Path for their Primeval Titans and Azusa, and then post board bring in Disenchant for Hive Mind/Amulet and Chalice on 0 for their Pacts, but does anyone have other suggestions? Thanks!
I played him before but I had trouble with double white since I'm also running Liliana. Now I'm considering trying again since I quite like how he builds pressure quickly.
Regarding Amulet - If they resolve Hive Mind and have a pact in hand, disenchant doesn't help you because they receive priority as Hive Mind resolves and can pact straight away. Chalice on 0 stops them from actually using pacts but if they have a Hive Mind out only the original spell gets countered and you still get the copy. That being said, the strategy against them is pretty much what you said + Fulminator Mages to slow them down.
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Modern: BW Tokens, BW Deadguy Ale,RWG Burn, GBW Kitchen Company
I think I tried really hard to make Mardu Midrange work but I just have had better results with Orzhov Midrange.
I tried splashing for Bolt, Helix, K's Command and Butcher. Young Pyro, Bolt, Helix and Doom. Ajani, Bolt, Pyromaster and Lavaman. A million different configurations among these and just notthing.
Neither was much better than us. Affinity is much easier and Infect is a bye, big deal when you still lose like a baby to both Tron variants and you have worse game vs Jund and Junk.
Never tested the match but may be better vs Elves and Merfolk, and you gotta experience things firsthand, so try it out and tell us how it did.
I think I tried really hard to make Mardu Midrange work but I just have had better results with Orzhov Midrange.
I tried splashing for Bolt, Helix, K's Command and Butcher. Young Pyro, Bolt, Helix and Doom. Ajani, Bolt, Pyromaster and Lavaman. A million different configurations among these and just notthing.
Neither was much better than us. Affinity is much easier and Infect is a bye, big deal when you still lose like a baby to both Tron variants and you have worse game vs Jund and Junk.
Never tested the match but may be better vs Elves and Merfolk, and you gotta experience things firsthand, so try it out and tell us how it did.
I tested a lot with Orzhov midrange and my final build was this one:
That is, in my opinion the optimal build for my metagame, and the worst matchups are: BURN, LAND decks (Tron, amulet, scapeshift).
and medium to dificult: Jund.
All the other archetypes were normal to easy... And some of them a bye. So my Sideboard just needed cards that interact with lands, and cards for life-gain or burn protection
I have to admit, at some point, that the Red-splash is a fanatism inner love for Kolaghan's command being ALWAYS 2x1!
and Bonus: We got the BEST sideboard cards agains tron, scapeshift and amulet in the Red color.
The deck is doing amazing!
- It certainly got more removal than before:
4 bolt, 2 helix, 3 lilis, 2 paths, 1 terminate (12) (16 if u count the "Shock" from command)
4 path, 2 go for the throat, 3 lili (9)
- The hand control got a little worse, its true i miss my tidehollows:
3 IoK, 2 seize, 4 kolaghan, 3 lili (12)
3 Iok, 3 seize, 4 tidehollow, 3 lili (13)
- I got now a decent matchup agains aggro, its not a 60-40 for them anymore.
3 Finks, 2 helix, (Butcher lifelink) I often keep my life at 20-21.. sometimes to 25-28 (YES, with dark confidant in table)
- Kolaghan's command let you re-cast your dead dark confidant (That little removal magnet we love)
it lets you recover Kitchen finks for more lifegain
- I did win a match with Fulminator mage + command screwing 1 of his colors
- Butcher and finks can be funny too.. doble sacrifice: Haste+lifelink or vigilance+haste + 2 life.
- Needless to say... that the best aggro Tier 1 deck in the format right now (Affinity) its super easy having artifact destroy effects mainboard... And I finally dont waste Sideboard slots in stupid cards like Disenchant
- Having burn spells allows you to win out of nowhere, the enemy cant see it coming: Atack with 2 dudes, 1 does hit, folowed by 2 bolts = win. it happens often.
I have tested Young Pyromancer in my first list, it wasnt so good... Its cool in grixis because Serum visions and Remand, cryptic command.
- Cards that i'll like to add but i cant find more room:
- About pack rat. Still doing good, its a cool Plan B and i use it on turn 2 sometimes to save my dark confidant from removal and recover the rat late game via Kolaghan's Command.
2 Copies of pack rats are enought for that mision
Another data that crossed my mind:
What do you think to have a more Burned based deck mainboard and Combo in sideboard.
I already have 3 Kitchen finks and 3 Butcher of the horde... If anafenza is casted there, you got infinite life, or swap finks for the other 4cc demon (Cant remember the name) and that is infinite damage.
anyway I dont wanna go combo for now, its just good to have in mind.
The BWR list seems clunky considering it has 11 3-drops. A big part of the power of Bob in Jund is being able to cast multiple spells a turn and proactively use your card advantage. I definitely would cut down on the number of Kolaghan's Command. 4 is way too many.
I tried redguy ale for a while. I really liked bolt and nothing else really. it's nice to be able to play the 8 best removal spells in the format. Butcher + bitterblossom was cute but I honestly like having tec edge/mutavault more than I like anything else about the red splash.
How do you guys do against aggro matchups? I'm really having trouble with Affinity, Zoo and Elves at least in game 1. I feel like I play enough removal but it still doesn't seem enough for those matchups. That's why I consider splashing red for Bolts and Helixes (maybe even Anger) hoping that will improve my aggro matchups while not significantly hindering my other matchups. Also, tron gives me trouble and splashing red would give me access to Sowing Salt.
I have seen several decks in TCdecks running 3 Zealous persecution. And lingering souls is always (In my opinion) a 4of. Both cards great vs aggro
And this is more a personal choice but i dont like Jotun Grunt, never really tested it except one or two times, but i would cut them for Blade Splicers (2 guys for 1 card, Blocks etched champion. Sinergy with your Restoration Angel, Colorless-land friendly)
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I'm on utter end. Can help as 1 of, i like it honestly even if 4 mana are a lot.
Btw an opinion: i'm feelinf 2 Bloodbaron are too manys. 1x can be a good idea?
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
I'm on this
4 Marsh Flats
4 Godless Shrine
5 Plains
5 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
4 Dark Confidant
4 Pack Rat
4 Geth's Verdict
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lingering Souls
4 Path to Exile
4 Thoughtseize
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
12 discard and 12 removal is perfectly fine with Bob either eating removal and making sure what you discard is meaningful, or drawing more cards so we always have removal. Liliana is brutal. Souls interact very well with Lilly and Rat. Bob interacts greatly with Rat. Sorin makes the life-loss pretty meaningless and Persecutor is the best black bomb. It can't be blocked profitably in the current meta and because of that, it drops them to zero in a heartbeat.
I dropped Victim of Night for Souls because Geth's Verdict has tested better mainboard than Victim. In turn I'm deciding whether to keep Go for the Throat in the board or remove them for Victim.
I don't run Dismember or Pact because Tasigor and Burn are too prevalent in my meta, and neither kill Persecutor.
Yes, if Abzan Company and Junk aren't the predominant force at your meta, the Baron isn't all that good. He's amazing because his protections make rock matches a bye most of the time, but otherwise, play more relevant hate.
I'm considering the following sideboard for my next event:
3 Kor Firewalker
3 Rest in Peace
3 Victim of Night
Is set in stone pretty much, the remaining 3 cards are the floaties.
Curse of Death's Hold Is the bee's knees vs Twin and can neuter Tokens, Elves and Soul Sisters if you remove their anthem effects with removal/disenchant. It can also prevent Affinity from ever recovering after a blow-out.
Zealous Persecution is the most likely cause of said blow-outs, but it needs to be timed perfectly instead of being a constant effect.
Phyrexian Revoker because I feel Needle, while good, doesn't actually put any pressure to Tron, it just tells them "I saw your hand, now you need to draw another of your plethora of unfair cards to **** my ***** up". Needle could push in the damage we need to actually win.
Utter End because sometimes you just really need to remove something.
Blood Baron of Vizkopa because it destroys Rock decks and you never know when they'll try to make a resurgence.
Surgical Extraction because sometimes, all we need to win, is getting rid of a specific card.
I'll give Extraction a try next tournament because getting rid of Ugin, Karn or Twin before they get to exist is pretty tempting and I have a lot of discard, but I believe those 3 spots and maybe even the 3 dedicated to extra removal are all flex spots that must be adapted to each of our metas.
Thoughts about red splash for Falkenrath Aristocrat?
On the other hand, she can get Dark Confidant, Pack Rat, or Tidehollow Sculler back on the turn she flips. She looks to have good interactions with Tidehollow Sculler in particular, so maybe there's something there.
Aristocrats, it's in Deck Creation.
You also get:
Lightning Bolt
Lightning Helix
Terminate
Ajani vengant, Sowing Salt, mardu charm, a manland... What do you think?
If you try Red let us know how it went - I'm really interested to find out if it's worth it.
Other cards to consider:
Young Pyromancer
Abbot of Keral Keep
Crackling Doom
Butcher of the Horde
Slaughter Games
I'm actually thinking about going full BR midrange. You get:
While still being able to get all the mutavaults and tect edges.
3 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
3 Restoration Angel
4 Pack Rat
2 Blade Splicer
2 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Path to Exile
4 Lingering Souls
1 Dismember
1 Darkblast
1 Zealous Persecution
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Ghost Quarter
4 Mutavault
4 Godless Shrine
2 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Isolated Chapel
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Marsh Flats
Sideboard:
I will definitely be running Lilianas when I get a hold of them, in the meantime any suggestions for improvements?
Also, a question for experienced players of the deck: what's your strategy for beating Amulet Bloom? My approach has been to try to hit their Amulets and Summer Blooms with discard spells, hold up Path for their Primeval Titans and Azusa, and then post board bring in Disenchant for Hive Mind/Amulet and Chalice on 0 for their Pacts, but does anyone have other suggestions? Thanks!
WRG Burn
WUG Spirits
I played him before but I had trouble with double white since I'm also running Liliana. Now I'm considering trying again since I quite like how he builds pressure quickly.
Regarding Amulet - If they resolve Hive Mind and have a pact in hand, disenchant doesn't help you because they receive priority as Hive Mind resolves and can pact straight away. Chalice on 0 stops them from actually using pacts but if they have a Hive Mind out only the original spell gets countered and you still get the copy. That being said, the strategy against them is pretty much what you said + Fulminator Mages to slow them down.
I think I tried really hard to make Mardu Midrange work but I just have had better results with Orzhov Midrange.
I tried splashing for Bolt, Helix, K's Command and Butcher. Young Pyro, Bolt, Helix and Doom. Ajani, Bolt, Pyromaster and Lavaman. A million different configurations among these and just notthing.
Neither was much better than us. Affinity is much easier and Infect is a bye, big deal when you still lose like a baby to both Tron variants and you have worse game vs Jund and Junk.
Never tested the match but may be better vs Elves and Merfolk, and you gotta experience things firsthand, so try it out and tell us how it did.
I tested a lot with Orzhov midrange and my final build was this one:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Pack Rat
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Lingering Souls
2 Blade Splicer
2 Restoration Angel
//Disruption
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Go for the throat
4 Path to Exile
3 Liliana of the veil
2 Zealous Persecution
3 Mutavault
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Marsh Flats
4 Godless Shrine
4 Isolated Chapel
2 Plains
2 Swamp
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Bloodstained Mire
That is, in my opinion the optimal build for my metagame, and the worst matchups are: BURN, LAND decks (Tron, amulet, scapeshift).
and medium to dificult: Jund.
All the other archetypes were normal to easy... And some of them a bye. So my Sideboard just needed cards that interact with lands, and cards for life-gain or burn protection
I have to admit, at some point, that the Red-splash is a fanatism inner love for Kolaghan's command being ALWAYS 2x1!
and Bonus: We got the BEST sideboard cards agains tron, scapeshift and amulet in the Red color.
So... this is how my deck is evolving right now:
4 Dark Confidant
2 Pack Rat
2 Fulminator Mage
3 Kitchen Finks
3 Butcher of the Horde
//Other Spells
4 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lingering Souls
3 Inquisition of kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the veil
2 Path to exile
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
1 Terminate
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Godless Shrine
2 Blood crypt
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
2 Fetid Heath
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Blackcleave Cliffs
The deck is doing amazing!
- It certainly got more removal than before:
4 bolt, 2 helix, 3 lilis, 2 paths, 1 terminate (12) (16 if u count the "Shock" from command)
4 path, 2 go for the throat, 3 lili (9)
- The hand control got a little worse, its true i miss my tidehollows:
3 IoK, 2 seize, 4 kolaghan, 3 lili (12)
3 Iok, 3 seize, 4 tidehollow, 3 lili (13)
- I got now a decent matchup agains aggro, its not a 60-40 for them anymore.
3 Finks, 2 helix, (Butcher lifelink) I often keep my life at 20-21.. sometimes to 25-28 (YES, with dark confidant in table)
- Kolaghan's command let you re-cast your dead dark confidant (That little removal magnet we love)
it lets you recover Kitchen finks for more lifegain
- I did win a match with Fulminator mage + command screwing 1 of his colors
- Butcher and finks can be funny too.. doble sacrifice: Haste+lifelink or vigilance+haste + 2 life.
- Needless to say... that the best aggro Tier 1 deck in the format right now (Affinity) its super easy having artifact destroy effects mainboard... And I finally dont waste Sideboard slots in stupid cards like Disenchant
- Having burn spells allows you to win out of nowhere, the enemy cant see it coming: Atack with 2 dudes, 1 does hit, folowed by 2 bolts = win. it happens often.
I have tested Young Pyromancer in my first list, it wasnt so good... Its cool in grixis because Serum visions and Remand, cryptic command.
- Cards that i'll like to add but i cant find more room:
Crackling Doom
Olivia Voldaren
chandra pyromaster
Ajani vengant
.. 1 more terminate copie.
.. 1 More 1cc Discard effect.
.. A good manland =P ... lavaclaw reaches sucks, Mutavault its 5 times better in a deck with Pack rat.. But with 3 colors i cant run it anymore.
- About pack rat. Still doing good, its a cool Plan B and i use it on turn 2 sometimes to save my dark confidant from removal and recover the rat late game via Kolaghan's Command.
2 Copies of pack rats are enought for that mision
Another data that crossed my mind:
What do you think to have a more Burned based deck mainboard and Combo in sideboard.
I already have 3 Kitchen finks and 3 Butcher of the horde... If anafenza is casted there, you got infinite life, or swap finks for the other 4cc demon (Cant remember the name) and that is infinite damage.
anyway I dont wanna go combo for now, its just good to have in mind.
My current list:
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Godless Shrine
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Mutavault
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Swamp
2 Plains
Creatures (16)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Pack Rat
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Restoration Angel
2 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Jotun Grunt
3 Liliana of the Veil
Spells (17)
3 Lingering Souls
1 Darkblast
1 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Wrath of God
2 Disenchant
1 Zealous Persecution
3 Relic of Progenitus
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Fulminator Mage
Elves, Colected Company decks contaminate the table in big numbers and sometimes 1x1 removal isnt enought.
- Why did you cut 1 Lingering Souls?
- I would consider +1/+2 Zealous persecution
I have seen several decks in TCdecks running 3 Zealous persecution. And lingering souls is always (In my opinion) a 4of. Both cards great vs aggro
And this is more a personal choice but i dont like Jotun Grunt, never really tested it except one or two times, but i would cut them for Blade Splicers (2 guys for 1 card, Blocks etched champion. Sinergy with your Restoration Angel, Colorless-land friendly)