Wow you're right! Our lists are very close. The one I'm running the same list I was able to top 8 with at Oregon's modern state championships last fall, with some minor tweaks. I will definitely give Sorin a try. He seems really nasty even if all you have out is a couple souls.
I, too, am curious about how well Mana Tithe actually performs. I never got a set because I figure the application is too narrow. What with Mana Leak being basically useless after turn six or so, I've always been leery of taxing counters that tax for even less.
I was very impressed with Mana Tithe. With all the hand disruption we run it can be extremely effective. By taking something with a Thoughtseize or an IOK and leaving them with cards they have to play on curve, it often felt like I was taking two cards from them. In game 1 your opponents never see it coming and can lead to some huge blowouts. Then in game 2 I will usually board them out for something more specialized, but your opponent then has play around it, slowing them down considerably. Obviously it becomes less relevant as the game progresses, but that's what are rats are for right?
If anyone else has a chance to try it out let me know what you're experience is.
P.S. I stole the Mana Tithe idea from a buddy of mine who was able to win the Modern States event with it in his mainboard
So I'm getting back into modern to compete in the next mocs on mtgo, and I thought I would start looking for a good deck by updating the deck that I did well with before.
But I think we want to splash red. There's a lot of upside to adding red, namely butcher of the horde and crackling doom.
Butcher takes the spot of baneslayer, and can even be better than baneslayer in some situations because he can get vigilance, and can swing the turn he comes down. Crackling doom does a few things. The 2 main situations where this will be better than another removal spell is against bogles (which if I remember correctly was a bad matchup), and it kills a Liliana that minused as well as a creature. It does also get around protection spells out of a deck like infect.
I'm not sure what the best mix of creatures is, my current setup looks good I think, but I think that seeker of the way is really good too.
I'm also trying out 2 cards in the main in soulfire grand master and zealous persecution. I think soulfire can potentially be ridiculous in the mid-late game, it's possible I should be playing slaughter pact to push it, but I'd gladly pay 5 mana to path something and get the path back when I'm in topdeck mode. It just seems like it could have massive upside. I know persecution has been around for awhile, and I thought it would be great before the bans, but now we don't have to face delver (as much) and pod so it could potentially be bad, still, I think it's worth testing.
My board is also a work in progress right now. I did beat a tron deck without fulminators or sowing salt, but that could have been a fluke. I'm also not sure I want hushwing gryff or not, but it does hose a few strategies like d&t, soul sisters, norin decks, and a few other fringe decks.
Please let me know what you guys think about this, and if you don't think this belongs in the thread just let me know and I'll ask a mod to move it, but I think it does since this is just a variant of the b/w deck.
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If MTG is a part of your life, the formats are like relationships:
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Lots of cards I like! But... to many creatures dying to light removals probably. Brimaz is really good in this deck.
Are 20 spells enough to trigger efficiently Pyromancer and Mentor? With Menor you will probably want more than one Zealous Persecution, they are amazing together.
What about Goblin Rabblemaster? He drops token each turn (even the first one youplay it, if you declare a war phase) without depending on spells.
There is a DEGA midrange (BWR) forum in "Deck Creation".
I want to try Monastery Mentor too, but I feel that maybe It's too much of an investment for three mana with the risk of loosing it without it doing anything. Of course you can play it with a mana up for a Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile so that you can make a Monk off of it, but that will force you into a spot where you might feel obligated to remove something you wouldn't actually need to remove.
Seeker of the Way is a card I've been trying out in the deck and it was ok. The problem with it is that it pushes you towards playing a bit too aggressively too early, at least for me. I feel that it's very important in the the W/B deck that you switch gears from control to beatdown at the exact right moment. That's why I love Sorin, Solemn Visitor in the deck. It let's you advance the board with chump blockers and then turn them into beaters and an gain you a ton of life at the same time.
I've also tried out Bitterblossom which has been great with Sorin, Solem Visitor. You can just sit back and hold up mana for removal while making a bunch of free flying lifelinker dudes. It is a bit slow though so it's probably best out of the board in the grinder match ups.
Anyways, good luck in the MOCS! I'm always happy when I see you doing well and I feel like I can relate to how you build your deck.
^ I'm really digging this list. I too have been thinking about adding red. Mostly for the reach, but also to one day live the dream of casting souls while I have a pyromancer out. Red also gives us Thundermaw out of the board, which might be worth considering if your meta is full of Junk players.
I don't think that adding the red splash necessarily requires its own thread for discussion. We've always been a grindy value deck, and that's what these all look like to me.
@attractor: Thanks for the encouragement to try Sorin. I've been running him in my Baneslayer spot and I'm loving it!
I don't think that adding the red splash necessarily requires its own thread for discussion. We've always been a grindy value deck, and that's what these all look like to me.
Yea I think I'm gonna have to go up to 2 Sorin and see how it feels. It feels blasphemous to cut Batterskull, but each time I saw it I thought to myself "I wish you were a Sorin right now."
Has anybody tried a "Phyrexian" version of this deck?, make sense?
Several months ago, i've played a monoblack infect control version and was really fun to play
What do you guys think of this list?
Life seems more important than ever vs midrange list, so this list has lots of ways to gain life.
Vampire Nighthawk dies to abrupt decay just as much as he dies to bolt, but he trades with Goyf/Siege Rhino and stops souls from attacking.
How is the new Sorin? I always liked the Innistrad one.
Is Monastery Mentor actually good?
Haven't played in months, let me know what your thoughts are, thanks!
How is the new Sorin? I always liked the Innistrad one.
Is Monastery Mentor actually good?
The new Sorin is fantastic. I recommend him to anyone trying to make this archetype work, especially if more aggressive decks are in your meta.
I haven't had a chance to test Mentor. I don't know if he has as much impact as out other 3 drop choices. I'd love to hear from someone who has actually tested with him though.
So the red splash did't work out. It was just a lot weaker than I expected. Lightning Bolt wasn't good enough as straight up removal and I felt like Young Pyromancer was to much work to generate value. If those two cards aren't enough to splash red for, I suspect no cards are.
On the other hand, the straight black white list I'm running feels really great. So much so that I don't feel like trying Monastery Mentor just cause I don't want to change a thing. At least not in the main.
Oh, yeah. Not as surprising then The only thing I have changed since then is to switch out the singleton Darkblast for a fourth Liliana of the Veil. Not sure if it's right though. There are stil a lot of X/1's cause, you know, Lingering Souls. I have felt that I often draw too many colorless lands. Thinking about cutting Tectonic Edge for a Vault of the Archangel and one more fetch or shock.
So with the new metagame starting to take shape, what do we feel are our worst matchups? I'm reworking my sideboard a bit and want to make sure I'm using my spaces optimally. Burn has always been an issue, but I'd like to know what other decks you all think are difficult for us to answer without SB help. It's the blessing and the curse of playing such a non-linear deck, that sometimes, you feel like any matchup could be fine if you see the right card sequence.
I was just thinking the same thing! I'm playing another tournament on saturday and I need to update my sideboard.
I've been play testing against burn and it seems like a really hard match up. I always win if I get to play Kor Firewalker or Sorin, Solemn Visitor though. The problem with Firewalker is the double white. Right now I'm thinking of adding a Worship to the board for that match up. Think it could be quite good agains Merfolks too since they don't have a lot of removal.
Beyond Burn I feel Twin and Abzan are the two most importen deck to have a plan against.
Twin does seem beatable between all the cheap discard and removal but maybe play two Slaughter Pact between the main and the sideboard to be on the safe side, since it's Remand-proof.
Abzan could be tricky. Mirran Crusader might be good cause they usually only plays one or two copies of Path to Exile. All other sort of removal is black. Zealous Persecution is of course great in the Souls-mirror. The real problem is the graveyard. Rest in Peace would be awesome if it didn't also make our Lingering Souls a lot worse. It's also easily removable with Abrupt Decay. I suppose going up to three Relic of Progenitus could be a fine solution.
I'm not worryed about Junk honestly: between removal and stuff i think we have a lot of answers.
Burn: I play Leyline in side, and ofc it's awsome.
But...even with Sorin, Crypt, Banespayer etc our life gain in G1 it's too slow. G2 dosn't matter what cad do you have in Side...it's all about when do you deaw the answer.
Twin: it's ok. Discard and Removal do the job.
I'm more concerned about affinity: we have removal, sure, but he's a lot faster then us. Dont know what to do in g1. G2 Wrath and Stony Silence helps a lot. Still not a grate MU.
Tron: i can't afford Fulminator Mages, but still....looks like an orrible MU, RG in particular: they have Pyroclasm for Lingering, Pack Rat aaaand...almost all we have; Mass removal like oblivion stone for Baneslayrs; Emrakul to discard with Liliana...<.< so...that's my real issue.
I hate Tron.
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My Decks on Paper: UWR Control/Midrange/Delver UWR Twin Miss you GBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only) GWAura Hexproof GWHatebears
Leyline seems great. Don't have any though... sad face. Runed halo naming Eidolon of the Great Revel is fine but very narrow. Chalice of the Void on 1 shut down half of their deck. That could be a thing. Chalice on 0 could be good against Affinity to, but you probably need to be on play and have it on your starting hand. Chalice on 1 might be good against Tron too, to counter all of their eggs.
I have not played that much against Affinity but Lingering Souls seems awesome against them. Also with Zealous Persecution, Stony Silence and maybe Disenchant in the sideboard game two and three couldn't be too hard.
Tron is probably harder. I have played that match up a lot and I feel it's maybe like 50/50. After sideboard I think we can tip the scales in our favor though. Stony Silence shuts down all the eggs and Oblivion Stone. I'm also thinking of maybe adding two Aven Mindcensor for this match up, which I think would be great agains Bloom Titan as well. The card that is the hardest to beat is Karn. I don't really know how to handle that dude.
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If anyone else has a chance to try it out let me know what you're experience is.
P.S. I stole the Mana Tithe idea from a buddy of mine who was able to win the Modern States event with it in his mainboard
But I think we want to splash red. There's a lot of upside to adding red, namely butcher of the horde and crackling doom.
Butcher takes the spot of baneslayer, and can even be better than baneslayer in some situations because he can get vigilance, and can swing the turn he comes down. Crackling doom does a few things. The 2 main situations where this will be better than another removal spell is against bogles (which if I remember correctly was a bad matchup), and it kills a Liliana that minused as well as a creature. It does also get around protection spells out of a deck like infect.
Here's where I'm starting:
2 arid mesa
1 blackcleave cliffs
1 bloodcrypt
2 bloodstained mire
2 godless shrine
1 isolated chapel
2 lavaclaw reaches
4 marsh flats
1 mountain
1 plains
1 sacred foundry
1 swamp
2 tectonic edge
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 vault of the archangel
4 young pyromancer
4 dark confidant
1 soulfire grand master
4 monastery mentor
4 butcher of the horde
Spells: 20
4 path to exile
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 thoughtseize
4 lightning bolt
1 zealous persecution
4 lingering souls
1 crackling doom
2 wear
2 grim lavamancer
2 rest in peace
2 stony silence
1 zealous persecution
2 aven mindcensor
2 hushwing gryff
1 phyrexian arena
1 crackling doom
I'm not sure what the best mix of creatures is, my current setup looks good I think, but I think that seeker of the way is really good too.
I'm also trying out 2 cards in the main in soulfire grand master and zealous persecution. I think soulfire can potentially be ridiculous in the mid-late game, it's possible I should be playing slaughter pact to push it, but I'd gladly pay 5 mana to path something and get the path back when I'm in topdeck mode. It just seems like it could have massive upside. I know persecution has been around for awhile, and I thought it would be great before the bans, but now we don't have to face delver (as much) and pod so it could potentially be bad, still, I think it's worth testing.
My board is also a work in progress right now. I did beat a tron deck without fulminators or sowing salt, but that could have been a fluke. I'm also not sure I want hushwing gryff or not, but it does hose a few strategies like d&t, soul sisters, norin decks, and a few other fringe decks.
Please let me know what you guys think about this, and if you don't think this belongs in the thread just let me know and I'll ask a mod to move it, but I think it does since this is just a variant of the b/w deck.
Standard/Block = The on-again, off-again holiday fling
Modern/Vintage/Legacy = Stable, homely. A ***** after absence/misreading
Limited/Sealed = Heart breaking free spirit
Commander/Cube = Agreeable, needy and expensive
Pauper/Peasant = Sweet, kind, practical, but shy and boring
Are 20 spells enough to trigger efficiently Pyromancer and Mentor? With Menor you will probably want more than one Zealous Persecution, they are amazing together.
What about Goblin Rabblemaster? He drops token each turn (even the first one youplay it, if you declare a war phase) without depending on spells.
There is a DEGA midrange (BWR) forum in "Deck Creation".
4 Marsh Flats
2 Blood Crypt
2 Godless Shrine
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Dragonskull Summit
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Path to Exile
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Dark Confidant
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Lightning Helix
4 Lingering Souls
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2 Sorin, Solemn Visitor
I want to try Monastery Mentor too, but I feel that maybe It's too much of an investment for three mana with the risk of loosing it without it doing anything. Of course you can play it with a mana up for a Lightning Bolt or Path to Exile so that you can make a Monk off of it, but that will force you into a spot where you might feel obligated to remove something you wouldn't actually need to remove.
Seeker of the Way is a card I've been trying out in the deck and it was ok. The problem with it is that it pushes you towards playing a bit too aggressively too early, at least for me. I feel that it's very important in the the W/B deck that you switch gears from control to beatdown at the exact right moment. That's why I love Sorin, Solemn Visitor in the deck. It let's you advance the board with chump blockers and then turn them into beaters and an gain you a ton of life at the same time.
I've also tried out Bitterblossom which has been great with Sorin, Solem Visitor. You can just sit back and hold up mana for removal while making a bunch of free flying lifelinker dudes. It is a bit slow though so it's probably best out of the board in the grinder match ups.
Anyways, good luck in the MOCS! I'm always happy when I see you doing well and I feel like I can relate to how you build your deck.
I don't think that adding the red splash necessarily requires its own thread for discussion. We've always been a grindy value deck, and that's what these all look like to me.
@attractor: Thanks for the encouragement to try Sorin. I've been running him in my Baneslayer spot and I'm loving it!
it already has
No problem I feel Sorin, Solemn Visitor is a great addition to the deck.
@Scoup:
Sure, there already is a thread for Mardu Midrange. I don't think it will hurt to at least discuss the value of splashing red here as well though.
Several months ago, i've played a monoblack infect control version and was really fun to play
Reference list: http://archive.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/deck/1488
Would be a good idea, keep Deadguy Ale's Midrange Shell, but kill with Phyrexian Crusader, Phyrexian Vatmother, Inkmoth Nexus and Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon. Protection from White and Red seems REALLY strong this days(Path to Exile and burn) and Phyrexian Crusader SHINES in combat(First Strike plus Infect allows it to block a 3/3 and survives)
What do you think guys?
Life seems more important than ever vs midrange list, so this list has lots of ways to gain life.
Vampire Nighthawk dies to abrupt decay just as much as he dies to bolt, but he trades with Goyf/Siege Rhino and stops souls from attacking.
How is the new Sorin? I always liked the Innistrad one.
Is Monastery Mentor actually good?
Haven't played in months, let me know what your thoughts are, thanks!
2x Swamp
2x Plains
4x Marsh Flats
2x Verdant Catacombs
1x Arid Mesa
3x Godless Shrine
1x Isolated Chapel
2x Mutavault
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Tectonic Edge
1x Temple of Silence
2x Vault of the Archangel
Creatures: 12
4x Dark Confidant
3x Pack Rat
2x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Vampire Nighthawk
1x Baneslayer Angel
3x Liliana of the Veil
4x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lingering Souls
4x Path to Exile
1x Phyrexian Arena
1x Slaughter Pact
1x Dismember
1x Batterskull
1x Zealous Persecution
1x Murderous Cut
15x Not sure Yet
The new Sorin is fantastic. I recommend him to anyone trying to make this archetype work, especially if more aggressive decks are in your meta.
I haven't had a chance to test Mentor. I don't know if he has as much impact as out other 3 drop choices. I'd love to hear from someone who has actually tested with him though.
On the other hand, the straight black white list I'm running feels really great. So much so that I don't feel like trying Monastery Mentor just cause I don't want to change a thing. At least not in the main.
I've been playing your deck for a week or so and have had good results. I would not change a thing.
I've been play testing against burn and it seems like a really hard match up. I always win if I get to play Kor Firewalker or Sorin, Solemn Visitor though. The problem with Firewalker is the double white. Right now I'm thinking of adding a Worship to the board for that match up. Think it could be quite good agains Merfolks too since they don't have a lot of removal.
Beyond Burn I feel Twin and Abzan are the two most importen deck to have a plan against.
Twin does seem beatable between all the cheap discard and removal but maybe play two Slaughter Pact between the main and the sideboard to be on the safe side, since it's Remand-proof.
Abzan could be tricky. Mirran Crusader might be good cause they usually only plays one or two copies of Path to Exile. All other sort of removal is black. Zealous Persecution is of course great in the Souls-mirror. The real problem is the graveyard. Rest in Peace would be awesome if it didn't also make our Lingering Souls a lot worse. It's also easily removable with Abrupt Decay. I suppose going up to three Relic of Progenitus could be a fine solution.
Burn: I play Leyline in side, and ofc it's awsome.
But...even with Sorin, Crypt, Banespayer etc our life gain in G1 it's too slow. G2 dosn't matter what cad do you have in Side...it's all about when do you deaw the answer.
Twin: it's ok. Discard and Removal do the job.
I'm more concerned about affinity: we have removal, sure, but he's a lot faster then us. Dont know what to do in g1. G2 Wrath and Stony Silence helps a lot. Still not a grate MU.
Tron: i can't afford Fulminator Mages, but still....looks like an orrible MU, RG in particular: they have Pyroclasm for Lingering, Pack Rat aaaand...almost all we have; Mass removal like oblivion stone for Baneslayrs; Emrakul to discard with Liliana...<.< so...that's my real issue.
I hate Tron.
UWR Control/Midrange/Delver
UWR TwinMiss youGBWJunk (still semi-budget; 3 tarmo only)
GWAura Hexproof
GWHatebears
I have not played that much against Affinity but Lingering Souls seems awesome against them. Also with Zealous Persecution, Stony Silence and maybe Disenchant in the sideboard game two and three couldn't be too hard.
Tron is probably harder. I have played that match up a lot and I feel it's maybe like 50/50. After sideboard I think we can tip the scales in our favor though. Stony Silence shuts down all the eggs and Oblivion Stone. I'm also thinking of maybe adding two Aven Mindcensor for this match up, which I think would be great agains Bloom Titan as well. The card that is the hardest to beat is Karn. I don't really know how to handle that dude.