Hey everyone. I was playing online a few days ago and ran into a very interesting deck that made me think of Deadguy Ale. I figured that some of you might be interested. It seemed extremely good. I don't know the full list, but I can list what I did see, and how it seemed to work so effectively.
It looks like they took a typical Deadguy Ale deck and made it more explosive with the Eldrazi. It was exactly that: explosive. Being able to play a turn three Thought-Knot into a turn four Sorin, Solemn Visitor was quite impressive. It only got better once a Reality Smasher hit the field.
It looks like they took a typical Deadguy Ale deck and made it more explosive with the Eldrazi. It was exactly that: explosive. Being able to play a turn three Thought-Knot into a turn four Sorin, Solemn Visitor was quite impressive. It only got better once a Reality Smasher hit the field.
The challenge with the Eldrazi is that you are effectively playing a 3-color deck, but are only able to reliably fetch for 2 of your 3 colors (W/B... only way to fetch a Wasteland is if you Path your own creature). It sounds like a mash-up of the B/W Eldrazi Processor and a W/B denial strategy. I'm sure it can be explosive (T1 E. Temple -> T2 E.Temple + TKS -> T3 Land+Reality Smasher is kinda hard to beat) but speaking from experience running Processor and W/B E&T the mana consistency can be a real pain if you don't find a colorless source.
Yeah, I can understand that. I was thinking afterwards that if WotC printed enemy-colored Talismans, the deck would probably get quite a boost. But there are options like Caves of Koilos which help a good deal. Like I said, it was very impressive playing against it. It combined the aggressive nature of a typical Eldrazi deck with the ability to go long of the planeswalkers and the disruption available to a typical BW deck.
As someone who played BW Eldrazi Taxes and then straight BW Eldrazi for a bit I will say that when the deck does what it's meant to it feels busted, but all too often you get screwed by your manabase and end up getting rolled.
If there ever becomes a way to make the mana for that kind of strategy as smooth as a typical 3-color deck then I could definitely see it picking up some steam. Until that point though, it will keep folding hard to blood moon and suboptimal draws.
Nassifs version I have been talking about, if anybody is interested.
It looks like a very interesting build. I recall in his previous article, Nassif described the deck as "WB Jund", but it strikes me as a cross between Mardu Pyro and Jund. Mardu in that it has a really top tier disruption package + Souls (and maybe I'm a sucker for Tidehollow Scullers) and Jund in that it can tap into some of the strongest PWs in Modern. On paper and in his practice, it looks to solve for Mardu's lack of threats with this.
I'd be really interested to see where it goes come Ravnica Allegiance, as I imagine Orzhov will get some new nice toys (I'm hoping for a Vindicate reprint... but probably won't happen).
I think this deck may run into similar issues as Mardu, in that is has to rely on a diversified card selection rather than having a good catch-all removal option. I suppose Anguished Unmaking may be a good choice if that becomes an issue (from watching the vids, it seems to have the life gain potential to offset the cost). Plus it has the extra targeted discard to possibly offset it.
After printing trophy there's really no good excuse for failing to reprint vindicate in the next set. Vindicate costs more mana, can't hit lands and is sorcery speed and even with the drawback of trophy, vindicate seems strictly weaker.
My hopes are high that either this deck, mardu or both will get something useful from the next set. I expect them to be dashed, but I'll continue hoping all the same.
Its not strictly weaker. The downside of trophy is a real drawback.
They don't print 3 mana stonerains in standard, certainly not ones with upside, and besides, vindicate is a pretty similar card to trophy, would be a little weird to see both in the same block.
Vindicate seems pretty powerful for standard. Its probably fine for modern, but getting there seems like the hard part.
While Vindicate can hit lands, the instant speed and the exile effect of Anguished Unmaking makes the choice not so obvious. It'd still be nice having a vindicate effect for 2 mana, though. I'm testing Gabriel Nassif's list now with really good results, but I might squeeze an AU or two instead of the Death Cloud in the SB.
To the people running Nassif's list, how do you feel about the mutavaults over running 4 shambling vent?
I could see them being good, but they could also possibly make casting Sculler and Liliana awkward or impossible in the early turns if you dont draw more colored lands in that timeframe.
4 vent has been fine for me, bit if a 3-2 split and an Urborg is better then that's where I want to be.
To the people running Nassif's list, how do you feel about the mutavaults over running 4 shambling vent?
I could see them being good, but they could also possibly make casting Sculler and Liliana awkward or impossible in the early turns if you dont draw more colored lands in that timeframe.
4 vent has been fine for me, bit if a 3-2 split and an Urborg is better then that's where I want to be.
I personally feel that 3 Mutavaults are too many, but I see Nassif's point about needing the lands to ETB untapped to curve, so I'm not sure about running 4 Vents. I'm trying 2-2 and using the free spot to add a Ghost Quarter. I haven't had many problems finding double black, but I've the playset of Fetid Heath and Urborg just in case, both are good options to consolidate the mana base.
If we assume you hit your landdrop every turn (with 25 lands thats pretty likely to happen until turn 4) then as long as there are enough coloured sources (18 black for Lilis and 14 for turn 2 sculler) then there is no issue at all. Nassifs list runs 19 black and 14 white sources despite the colouless lands. The manabase is fine as is. And if we are being honest, shambling vent as a tapland also has some awkwardness as well when wanting to curve out. Turn 1 discard into turn 2 bob/sculler into turn 3 Lili or Souls. In that sequence you cannot fit in shambling vent. But you can fit in mutavault if you play a bob turn 2.
What do you guys think about swapping the Cast Out for an Anguished Unmaking? I feel the list is lacking something to deal with non-creature permanents, if they hit the board, we are doomed. Taking out one Thoughtseize might be another option, but I don't want to make the curve much higher. I've also thought about adding one Batterskull instead of one Solemn Visitor, but again, hitting it with Bob might be gg.
I feel like anguished unmaking is a good sideboard card if you have the space for it due to its flexibility. I don't know that I'd play it mainboard though.
Personally I've been using a single path to exile in that slot and I like it better than cast down due to having no restrictions on the kind of creatures it can target.
AU is a fine card for a number of matchups, but against aggressive decks it's probably not worth the life loss over a different removal spell. Also, the only noncreature permanent I can think of that I really don't want to have to play against is leyline of sanctity. I feel we have enough disruption that most everything else isn't too much of a problem if we can restrict the opponent's resources sufficiently.
Inquisition + thoughtseize + Sculler + Liliana is a brutal recipe for breaking up synergy and a single powerful card (like Jace or azcanta etc.) doesn't usually seem to be enough for them to mount a comeback in my experience.
I feel like anguished unmaking is a good sideboard card if you have the space for it due to its flexibility. I don't know that I'd play it mainboard though.
Personally I've been using a single path to exile in that slot and I like it better than cast down due to having no restrictions on the kind of creatures it can target.
AU is a fine card for a number of matchups, but against aggressive decks it's probably not worth the life loss over a different removal spell. Also, the only noncreature permanent I can think of that I really don't want to have to play against is leyline of sanctity. I feel we have enough disruption that most everything else isn't too much of a problem if we can restrict the opponent's resources sufficiently.
Inquisition + thoughtseize + Sculler + Liliana is a brutal recipe for breaking up synergy and a single powerful card (like Jace or azcanta etc.) doesn't usually seem to be enough for them to mount a comeback in my experience.
Well, Karn and other PW are also things that AU gets rid of, as well as Pyromancer Ascension or some artifacts if you can't hit them with discard spells. PtE is a good alternative, though, since it lowers the curve and let you kill Wurmcoil Engines.
Edit: after trying the deck for some matches, I've decided to make some tweaks:
First, swapping a SSV for a Batterskull. SV is great, but I feel it really shines when you are already winning. Batterskull is a great top deck that can be recursive and works well with the tokens both in defense and offense.
Since we have less lifegain on the early game, I'm trying Gifted Aethersborn and move the Fulminators to the SB. It's proving to be decent in the mu against Humans, it blocks Thalia and Goyfs, making the combat more favorable to us at the beginning.
Finally, I added a PtE and some Field of Ruin instead of the Mutavault so it's not an auto-lose against Tron on the first game, and placed a AU on the SB.
I also tried gifted aetherborn in this deck for a bit. While I do think it's a good card I've ended up putting a Brimaz and a Kalitas in those slots.
For 3 mana, Brimaz is just ridiculous and while Kalitas has pretty much vanished from modern it can still take over games almost singlehandedly. Lifelink, tokens, incidental graveyard strategy hate and the fact that it can eat its own tokens, late-game scullers that didn't have targets and the tokens that Sorin produces in order to outgrow everything else in play makes Kalitas a strong choice in my opinion.
Batterskull is performing well, but revealing it with Bob itches. You can gain the life back the next turn, though.
I haven't had much time to test the GA, but in the context of the deck looks decent enough. It's a 2 drop, which lowers the curve (we usually want Liliana down on turn 3). It's easy to cast. And it works well both in defense (by blocking anything on the ground) and in attack (semi unblockable and the lifegain is amazing against Burn).
Brimaz and Kalitas also look good, but I'd say that Kalitas mostly competes with Batterskull and Sorin, and I like the others better.
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It looks like they took a typical Deadguy Ale deck and made it more explosive with the Eldrazi. It was exactly that: explosive. Being able to play a turn three Thought-Knot into a turn four Sorin, Solemn Visitor was quite impressive. It only got better once a Reality Smasher hit the field.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
The challenge with the Eldrazi is that you are effectively playing a 3-color deck, but are only able to reliably fetch for 2 of your 3 colors (W/B... only way to fetch a Wasteland is if you Path your own creature). It sounds like a mash-up of the B/W Eldrazi Processor and a W/B denial strategy. I'm sure it can be explosive (T1 E. Temple -> T2 E.Temple + TKS -> T3 Land+Reality Smasher is kinda hard to beat) but speaking from experience running Processor and W/B E&T the mana consistency can be a real pain if you don't find a colorless source.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
If there ever becomes a way to make the mana for that kind of strategy as smooth as a typical 3-color deck then I could definitely see it picking up some steam. Until that point though, it will keep folding hard to blood moon and suboptimal draws.
Nassifs version I have been talking about, if anybody is interested.
It looks like a very interesting build. I recall in his previous article, Nassif described the deck as "WB Jund", but it strikes me as a cross between Mardu Pyro and Jund. Mardu in that it has a really top tier disruption package + Souls (and maybe I'm a sucker for Tidehollow Scullers) and Jund in that it can tap into some of the strongest PWs in Modern. On paper and in his practice, it looks to solve for Mardu's lack of threats with this.
I'd be really interested to see where it goes come Ravnica Allegiance, as I imagine Orzhov will get some new nice toys (I'm hoping for a Vindicate reprint... but probably won't happen).
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
I think this deck may run into similar issues as Mardu, in that is has to rely on a diversified card selection rather than having a good catch-all removal option. I suppose Anguished Unmaking may be a good choice if that becomes an issue (from watching the vids, it seems to have the life gain potential to offset the cost). Plus it has the extra targeted discard to possibly offset it.
B/G Rock BG | Jund BGR | Mardu Pyromancer BRW | Ponza RG | Burn RW
My hopes are high that either this deck, mardu or both will get something useful from the next set. I expect them to be dashed, but I'll continue hoping all the same.
Its not strictly weaker. The downside of trophy is a real drawback.
They don't print 3 mana stonerains in standard, certainly not ones with upside, and besides, vindicate is a pretty similar card to trophy, would be a little weird to see both in the same block.
Vindicate seems pretty powerful for standard. Its probably fine for modern, but getting there seems like the hard part.
I could see them being good, but they could also possibly make casting Sculler and Liliana awkward or impossible in the early turns if you dont draw more colored lands in that timeframe.
4 vent has been fine for me, bit if a 3-2 split and an Urborg is better then that's where I want to be.
I personally feel that 3 Mutavaults are too many, but I see Nassif's point about needing the lands to ETB untapped to curve, so I'm not sure about running 4 Vents. I'm trying 2-2 and using the free spot to add a Ghost Quarter. I haven't had many problems finding double black, but I've the playset of Fetid Heath and Urborg just in case, both are good options to consolidate the mana base.
Personally I've been using a single path to exile in that slot and I like it better than cast down due to having no restrictions on the kind of creatures it can target.
AU is a fine card for a number of matchups, but against aggressive decks it's probably not worth the life loss over a different removal spell. Also, the only noncreature permanent I can think of that I really don't want to have to play against is leyline of sanctity. I feel we have enough disruption that most everything else isn't too much of a problem if we can restrict the opponent's resources sufficiently.
Inquisition + thoughtseize + Sculler + Liliana is a brutal recipe for breaking up synergy and a single powerful card (like Jace or azcanta etc.) doesn't usually seem to be enough for them to mount a comeback in my experience.
Well, Karn and other PW are also things that AU gets rid of, as well as Pyromancer Ascension or some artifacts if you can't hit them with discard spells. PtE is a good alternative, though, since it lowers the curve and let you kill Wurmcoil Engines.
Edit: after trying the deck for some matches, I've decided to make some tweaks:
First, swapping a SSV for a Batterskull. SV is great, but I feel it really shines when you are already winning. Batterskull is a great top deck that can be recursive and works well with the tokens both in defense and offense.
Since we have less lifegain on the early game, I'm trying Gifted Aethersborn and move the Fulminators to the SB. It's proving to be decent in the mu against Humans, it blocks Thalia and Goyfs, making the combat more favorable to us at the beginning.
Finally, I added a PtE and some Field of Ruin instead of the Mutavault so it's not an auto-lose against Tron on the first game, and placed a AU on the SB.
Here's the list: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/decks/7175-orzhov-midrange
I also tried gifted aetherborn in this deck for a bit. While I do think it's a good card I've ended up putting a Brimaz and a Kalitas in those slots.
For 3 mana, Brimaz is just ridiculous and while Kalitas has pretty much vanished from modern it can still take over games almost singlehandedly. Lifelink, tokens, incidental graveyard strategy hate and the fact that it can eat its own tokens, late-game scullers that didn't have targets and the tokens that Sorin produces in order to outgrow everything else in play makes Kalitas a strong choice in my opinion.
I haven't had much time to test the GA, but in the context of the deck looks decent enough. It's a 2 drop, which lowers the curve (we usually want Liliana down on turn 3). It's easy to cast. And it works well both in defense (by blocking anything on the ground) and in attack (semi unblockable and the lifegain is amazing against Burn).
Brimaz and Kalitas also look good, but I'd say that Kalitas mostly competes with Batterskull and Sorin, and I like the others better.