It cracks me up to see this build cycle back to Resto/Splicer, awesome to read this thread. Makes me want to go back on the no-Eldrazi train... Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn! Sorryy, nvm
One thing worth mentioning about your calculation is it's the chance to draw 4 or more lands by turn 4, not exactly 4. 23 land gives the best chance (54%) of drawing exactly 3 or 4 land by turn 3. I consider that the sweet spot since I want to play three drops on time but I don't want to draw 5+ lands early in the game. I don't really care about getting the 4th land on time.
Playing 24 or 25 land doesn't change the sweet spot probability very much but it does significantly increase the chance to draw 5+ at the expense of drawing only 2. 2 land hands can still be very powerful with discard/removal and Copter/Bob and our three drops are good at stabilizing even on turns 4 and 5. That's why I usually max out at 24 but think 23 is reasonable.
Jötun Grunt seems pretty good to me in a build with Restoration Angel. The way the upkeep counters work is that you have to take cards out of yards in pairs, but you can take a pair from any yard. So with two counters you could hit your own yard for two cards and your opponent's for two more. Grunt is obviously very good against Mill, Storm, Shadow decks, and Lantern Control, but it's pretty bad against decks that aren't putting their own cards into the yard--decks like Merfolk, Elves, Eldrazi Tron, etc. The list I whipped together for *****s and giggles is below:
I played DGA for months back in the day and it was always a problem to find the right 2 drop for the build. Looter Scooter seems like it might be the right fit--it's a decent clock in the air, and the added filtering should be extremely relevant. Playing it out on T2 followed by just about anything on T3 seems real good. I don't think I'd run four, just because it can't crew itself, though.
The deck idea above is trying to maximize value from micro-synergies like that between Resto/Grunt (reset counters), Resto/Inspector, Resto/Splicer, Splicer/Mutavault, Mutavault/Copter, and Copter/Grunt (play Grunt out one turn later, feed the graveyard with Copter to keep him around longer). Having played 4x maindeck Relic of Progenitus for many, many months now I can say unequivocally that maindeck graveyard hate is amazing. Grunt is not a great card, but it is hella fun to screw around with and the combination of Resto and Copter might be just what it needs to be a real thing. The curve looks great on paper, but six 4-drops might be a little heavy for Bob. Might be better to drop one for something else. Could also go 2x Thoughtseize/4x IoK, but I am not a huge fan of Inquisition in general. I expect I'd be fetching primarily for basics with this list to help conserve life.
Back when I played this deck I was on the Ghost Quarter/Vault of the Archangel plan, but Mutavault seems like it is better overall, currently. However GQ is extremely relevant against UW Control and Affinity, both serious players in the meta right now. I also played Sorin and/or LotV at times, but baby Elspeth seems good too.
Round1 vs elsrazi tron
Lost to turn 1 chalice almost came back from this thanks to copter cycling my one mana spells, but endbringer was to much. Game 2 was very close as well but my opponent had t1 collar and turn 3 tns. I almost broke the collar with a disenchant from board but he had another chalice on 1 that i need to smash. It turned into top deck wars with me riding two souls and man lands for a while trading resources but my opponent top decked karn into smasher. Oh well knew elsrazi tron and tron would be our worse matchup and it still feels like its not super lopsided.
Round2 bye
Round3 played bs abzan was a grind fest. I was finally able to break through thanks to a gideon emblem and souls. Copter did work by allowing to sing over a goyf and through his spirits and cycled two lands which was huge. G2 two cluthch zealous persecutions allowed me to win through double souls and lilianas. Gifted Aetherborn got in through a goyf twice and was able to keep a siege rhino back.
Round 4 living end lost game one took a mull to 6 and got stuck with 2 mutavaults and one shock in hand. Couldn't find a fourth land and had to swing in with mutavault just to do anything I eventually had to path my own mutavault to be able to play the game after my opponent went off. Game 2 i had an insane curve that opened with discard and hand hate for the first 4 turns between the scullers and ioks. G3 i got to live the dream of t1 iok into surgical his living end. I kept a one lander and he slowed me down with fulmaitors but he had no pressure on me.
In the last three weeks since playing this build tonight was my first loss i am something like 7-1-2 not including byes. And this has been against a lot of different decks. We definitely have game vs a lot of the top decks atm.
I may look into redguys ale it seems like it will help vs tron while not losing a whole lot vs a lot of other decks if there is a way to keep liliana in the deck. If you are going red guys i think that trying to jam nahiri becomes an option you have emerikul plus bob but if your willing to play the lottery it gives you a very different angle to attack tron and control decks with. Plus the cycling on it is pretty great. Also i think butcher horde may be worth looking into if you want to play young pyromancer. He doesn't net any value but as a 5/4 flyer who can get lifelink he lets you race real well and is kind of hard to kill. K-command as a 2 of is also looking good especially if you don't have lilli to break bridge and be able to get bob back late game. I still think that if liliana is your only double color it is fine you can set up to be mainly black splash white and red for your few off colors. you can also play one of the sorins as well if you want to play red and have a 4 drop walker they are definitely worse than gideon and elspeth but they still get the job done. Lord of innistrad can be a pretty good bad elspeth who can still come down and anthem for souls.
It might be a little cute but Big Game Hunter seems sweet against Death's Shadow and Eldrazi Tron and it's good with Restoration Angel.
Card seems sweet in our deck especially with the synergies with LOTV and brutality. However i think it may solve a problem that doesn't exist usually i do not have problems with shadow. In eldrazi tron at least from my experiences its the balista and the karn that get you not there creatures which we seem well off to kill assuming there is nothing insane like t2 reshaper into tns into smasher. If your not playing liliana or a walker it's probably a lot better as a way to grind out value.
I did a few things here - first I cut the second 4 drop for a 24th land. My plan is to board down to 23 on the draw basically every time.
I'm also on 4 Liliana 2 Splicer. After more matches comparing the two, I'm loving Lili. While flooding the board with Golems can be great, Liliana's effect is unique and powerful. For now I'm imagining Splicer as Souls 5+.
I used to have 2 Kitchen Finks over 2 Splicer and I can say the lighter color requirements are quite welcome. I want to test Burn more with Splicer over Finks but I have a feeling Splicer is only slightly worse. Finks is way better if you don't have to shock yourself to get WW though. I think those cards are really close in general. I could see playing a 1-1 split or 3-1/2-2 Splicer/Finks in a deck like Suechtler's.
@Suechtler
You are going into some crazy territory with these Redguy lists. I agree there aren't many red appealing red cards past Blood Moon and Kolaghan's Command. On your latest list - I dunno about the red but I'd like a 4 drop (Resto or Elspeth) over the last Sculler. I imagine Sculler as a back-up 2 drop / pseudo 3 drop since its best use is crewing Copter turn 3. It also doesn't play nice with Mutavault so it can make turns 2-4 a little awkward. Playing 4 is fine but I think the first 4 drop is better than the last Sculler.
I can also see how maxing on Sculler sort of fills in for Liliana since it's giving you more discard. So maybe 4 Sculler 4 Splicer 0 Liliana is genius. Then again Sculler is bad against Death's Shadow whereas Liliana is amazing. Splicer is fine there but probably worse than Kitchen Finks. So many options!
If you play 4 Concealed Courtyard then the WW for Finks isn't so bad. I think what you gain against Burn could outweigh what you lose against the rest of the field by playing Finks over Splicer, as Finks is also better against Death's Shadow even if it's worse against everything else.
The more I think about it, the more I don't like the Redguy Blood Moon plan. Between Wastes and Mind Stone, Eldrazi Tron can still cast its spells under Blood Moon. They can also find Wastes with Expedition Map. It definitely slows them down but it will slow you down too, for one because it costs 3 mana. Eldrazi Tron will also probably board in Ratchet Bomb against Lingering Souls, Golems, and Copter. There are already a bunch of good cards against Titanshift in BW, e.g. Liliana of the Veil, so I don't think it's worth going crazy over that matchup. That's not to mention that the manabase is considerably worse.
This deck is great right now! It has gotten amazing upgrades in the last few blocks, e.g. Shambling Vent in Battle for Zendikar, Collective Brutality in Eldritch Moon, Concealed Courtyard and Smuggler's Copter in Kaladesh, and Fatal Push in Aether Revolt. Copter really pulls it all together and makes a third color less appealing.
I notice you beat Titanshift without Blood Moon OR Liliana. How lucky were you? lol
I went 4-2 for 10th place but I won all 6 (!) die rolls.
R1 BR Control 2-1
R2 GW Value CoCo 0-2
R3 Grixis Death Shadow 1-2
R4 Naya Value CoCo 2-0
R5 Abzan Combo CoCo (Vizier of Remedies) 2-1
R6 UB Faeries 2-1
It sounds like a cop-out but I mostly lost to mulligans and flood in rounds 2 and 3. I also didn't play any live magic for 2 weeks so I was a tad rusty. A fine record but I want the W!
I think I could have won g1 against GW Value CoCo but I screwed up a loot with Copter. I looted into Blade Splicer with Copter in hand with Lingering Souls in the yard and 4 mana available. I could have played Copter + Souls or Splicer and I went with Splicer. Not 100% clear I would have won with the other line but I think it was a pretty obvious error.
I don't think I could have won the Death's Shadow match. I got flooded g1 and his hand was the absolute stone nuts of Scalding Tarn, Thoughtseize, Death's Shadow, Death's Shadow, Serum Visions, Fatal Push, Terminate. In g3 he had a slow start but I got flooded again. Shrug. I boarded down to 23 land in g3 as well
As a bonus I lost all my prize packs playing dice after the tournament. My dice-rolling run good came to an end.
Ya Sculler is really an incredible card in the combo matchups. Curving Inquisition / Thoughtseize -> Sculler is fantastic.
I agree about the Death's Shadow match and I still like the 24 land main / 23 after board on the draw plan.
I think it's a misconception that Lili makes dead draws better. Discarding to Liliana gets the absolute minimum value out of a card and that option is always available to you. In the case that your hand is so good you don't even want to plus Liliana, it's surely worse to have a dead card to discard instead. You could always plus and end up in the same spot either way. There is no additional value in having bad cards to discard, other than making your decision easier.
One thing I have to say is that I have not been impressed with Blade Splicer. I think I totally overestimated it in comparison to Lingering Souls. Spot removal on the Golem is usually quite good since the 1/1 is close to irrelevant without flying and, of course, there is no flashback. Maybe that would be different in a build with Restoration Angel but I'm still not a Resto fan.
Also - I'm boarding out Liliana against almost all the CoCo decks but Splicer isn't good there either! Flying is the key to our offense in that matchup. The CoCo decks either have Knight of the Reliquary or Kitchen Finks or both and either effectively blunts the Golem offensive.
So here's a slightly tweaked version that I will probably play tomorrow at a local tournament:
Looking at the last big tournaments resulted this weekend( overall best deck was titanshift) i think the redguy ale plan is way more appealing, at least as a board plan, unless anyone can think of a way to hate out that deck in w/b. So unless we dig deep and pray for a temple ban we need a plan. My biggest issue with picking up red isnt so much the mana which i think we have the means to support if we go less manland heavy, its trying to find a good two drop that isnt double color like aetherborn. I have found the deck the deck to feel very consistent with my only three drops being liliana and souls. It makes multiple bobs so much better and i think it is generally better to go turn 3 2 drop into a discard spell or removal spell. I still think if you go three colors you keep liliana since you are only bringing in bloodmoon in probably 20-30% of the time. The Mus where you are playing bloodmoon you still have a chance to play around your own bloodmoon. If you cant get it down you still have your copter to cycle it or brutalitys to pitch to, its not goos but at least the basment for it is not unreasonable. Plus most of the matchups you are bringing in bloodmoon lilina is still good in. K command is also probably worth it as a two of for busting artifacts like chalice and for recurring a late game bob. Maybe we take the best of both worlds by playing game one as a w/b deck and giving up our sb to transition into a mardu bloodmoon deck. We would probably have to give up some number of sb slots for fetches but it allows you to play double color cards game1. I dont think its worth it but its worth considering.
It's not that hard to beat Titanshift if you want to. Keep all the discard, especially Liliana, and play a bunch of Aven Mindcensor / Shadow of Doubt. You can also play Leyline of Sanctity or Runed Halo naming Valakut. Surgical Extraction is also ok in conjunction with discard, hitting Primeval Titan or Scapeshift. I don't think you need to bend over backwards to beat them.
I don't think that any BW cards have anywhere near the impact of Blood Moon in the Tron and Titanshift MUs and the latter one is pretty unwinnable even with a T3 Lili on the play, particularly now that they have access to Hour of Promise letting them do stuff with fewer resources.
I'm still not convinced Moon is worth warping my mana base though and don't have the guts to actually register a Redguy list for the PPTQ, hence audibling to this (heading off now, so hopefully a positive report coming up tonight :)):
I really like your list, and I'm going to try to run it for a Modern PPTQ this Saturday. Wanted to ask though, did you ever have issues with the Murderous Cut? I've been thinking about replacing it with a Thraben Inspector or a Gifted Ætherborn.
Hi guys! I've been tinkering with BW Midrange builds a lot recently and was happy to discover that this thread is still alive (!) and active (!!) even all these years later!
So I was wondering: is playing this sort of shell without Bob just total heresy? I haven't got Confidants but still am interested in the whole midrange-goodstuff-with-hand-disruption-and-copters sort of thing... Anyway, here's what I'm on. It's a work in progress.
Bitterblossom, I figure, serves much the same purpose as Bob: it sits on the board and drowns your opponent in value. There are a couple of glaring disadvantages of course (it does nothing the turn it comes down, can't crew copter right away, and doesn't actually help you find answers to specific threats like Bob does), but perhaps it could make for a sufficiently grindy substitute. That being said, I don't think I'd want to run the full 4. It seems like flooding out on them could be pretty miserable, although I guess the loot scooter can help out with that.
Playing more planeswalkers also helps to make up for the raw card advantage lost by not having Confidants. Gideon in particular seems pretty awesome in this sort of configuration, since he's just so obnoxiously difficult to get rid of. Even so though, I'm not a hundred percent convinced that it's even worth trying to play without Bob; he's just that strong. What do you guys think? Is this just a pile?
Now that I think about it, perhaps I've crossed some sort of line and belong in the tokens thread? That kinda feels wrong too though, with scullers, copters, liliana etc.
Hi Guys, first time posting here, and I am absolutely in love with this deck! and I want to wrap it up to play this weekend, however on a budget side, so with that in mind I would like to ask:
Is really possible (competitively) to play:
1) pain seer instead bob
2) blinkmoth nexus instead Multavault
3) Duress instead Thoughtseize
Your list is effective! That is why I liked it!
I agree with the downside of Pain seer, but how often do you see yourself/opponent with no cards in hand? Since your list runs 4 Blade and 1 resto, means that blinking is not the main goal, maybe 2 Aethersphere Harvester to keep Seer tapped and go down 1 blade and other card?
3) CoBru seems good in the main deck
IMO, pain seer is better than asylum seeker when you have copters. Sure, you can madness in seekers, but getting guarenteed card draw off pain seer is better overall. If you had lilianas, it might be a different story, though.
I don't own a fetid heath, but I would probably play one instead of the seventh fetch.
Otherwise, its not got anything crazy, just very heavy on discard and planeswalkers.
I feel that W/B has a lot of good planeswalkers to utilize, and spending the first couple turns ripping someones hand apart before slamming down a walker thats probably difficult to deal with, as they likely have little board presence, is our best plan.
Thus, the deck is built to maximize this outcome.
While having so much discard can often be a problem with topdecking it later on, we have so many powerful topdecks (walkers, souls, bob) to make up for this.
Gideon might be better.
I really like old sorin, as spitting out a token every turn while going up, making permanent emblems, and an ultimate that is game swinging and reasonably easy to hit all on one card is pretty decent.
On top of that, I've already got 3 little gideons, and only 1 other sorin.
Ally of zendikar is definitely worth considering though.
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Anyway I have two words for you all: Jötun Grunt.
Playing 24 or 25 land doesn't change the sweet spot probability very much but it does significantly increase the chance to draw 5+ at the expense of drawing only 2. 2 land hands can still be very powerful with discard/removal and Copter/Bob and our three drops are good at stabilizing even on turns 4 and 5. That's why I usually max out at 24 but think 23 is reasonable.
4x Concealed Courtyard
4x Marsh Flats
4x Mutavualt
3x Shambling Vent
3x Godless Shrine
3x Swamp
2x Plains
Creatures (14)
4x Dark Confidant
4x Restoration Angel
3x Blade Splicer
2x Jötun Grunt
1x Thraben Inspector
3x Smuggler's Copter
Sorcery (8)
4x Lingering Souls
3x Thoughtseize
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Collective Brutality
Instant (7)
4x Path to Exile
2x Fatal Push
1x Anguished Unmaking
Planeswalker (2)
2x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3x Stony Silence
2x Damnation
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Anguished Unmaking
1x Collective Brutality
1x Thoughtseize
1x Grafdigger's Cage
The deck idea above is trying to maximize value from micro-synergies like that between Resto/Grunt (reset counters), Resto/Inspector, Resto/Splicer, Splicer/Mutavault, Mutavault/Copter, and Copter/Grunt (play Grunt out one turn later, feed the graveyard with Copter to keep him around longer). Having played 4x maindeck Relic of Progenitus for many, many months now I can say unequivocally that maindeck graveyard hate is amazing. Grunt is not a great card, but it is hella fun to screw around with and the combination of Resto and Copter might be just what it needs to be a real thing. The curve looks great on paper, but six 4-drops might be a little heavy for Bob. Might be better to drop one for something else. Could also go 2x Thoughtseize/4x IoK, but I am not a huge fan of Inquisition in general. I expect I'd be fetching primarily for basics with this list to help conserve life.
Back when I played this deck I was on the Ghost Quarter/Vault of the Archangel plan, but Mutavault seems like it is better overall, currently. However GQ is extremely relevant against UW Control and Affinity, both serious players in the meta right now. I also played Sorin and/or LotV at times, but baby Elspeth seems good too.
Round1 vs elsrazi tron
Lost to turn 1 chalice almost came back from this thanks to copter cycling my one mana spells, but endbringer was to much. Game 2 was very close as well but my opponent had t1 collar and turn 3 tns. I almost broke the collar with a disenchant from board but he had another chalice on 1 that i need to smash. It turned into top deck wars with me riding two souls and man lands for a while trading resources but my opponent top decked karn into smasher. Oh well knew elsrazi tron and tron would be our worse matchup and it still feels like its not super lopsided.
Round2 bye
Round3 played bs abzan was a grind fest. I was finally able to break through thanks to a gideon emblem and souls. Copter did work by allowing to sing over a goyf and through his spirits and cycled two lands which was huge. G2 two cluthch zealous persecutions allowed me to win through double souls and lilianas. Gifted Aetherborn got in through a goyf twice and was able to keep a siege rhino back.
Round 4 living end lost game one took a mull to 6 and got stuck with 2 mutavaults and one shock in hand. Couldn't find a fourth land and had to swing in with mutavault just to do anything I eventually had to path my own mutavault to be able to play the game after my opponent went off. Game 2 i had an insane curve that opened with discard and hand hate for the first 4 turns between the scullers and ioks. G3 i got to live the dream of t1 iok into surgical his living end. I kept a one lander and he slowed me down with fulmaitors but he had no pressure on me.
In the last three weeks since playing this build tonight was my first loss i am something like 7-1-2 not including byes. And this has been against a lot of different decks. We definitely have game vs a lot of the top decks atm.
I may look into redguys ale it seems like it will help vs tron while not losing a whole lot vs a lot of other decks if there is a way to keep liliana in the deck. If you are going red guys i think that trying to jam nahiri becomes an option you have emerikul plus bob but if your willing to play the lottery it gives you a very different angle to attack tron and control decks with. Plus the cycling on it is pretty great. Also i think butcher horde may be worth looking into if you want to play young pyromancer. He doesn't net any value but as a 5/4 flyer who can get lifelink he lets you race real well and is kind of hard to kill. K-command as a 2 of is also looking good especially if you don't have lilli to break bridge and be able to get bob back late game. I still think that if liliana is your only double color it is fine you can set up to be mainly black splash white and red for your few off colors. you can also play one of the sorins as well if you want to play red and have a 4 drop walker they are definitely worse than gideon and elspeth but they still get the job done. Lord of innistrad can be a pretty good bad elspeth who can still come down and anthem for souls.
Card seems sweet in our deck especially with the synergies with LOTV and brutality. However i think it may solve a problem that doesn't exist usually i do not have problems with shadow. In eldrazi tron at least from my experiences its the balista and the karn that get you not there creatures which we seem well off to kill assuming there is nothing insane like t2 reshaper into tns into smasher. If your not playing liliana or a walker it's probably a lot better as a way to grind out value.
4 Mutavault
4 Shambling Vent
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrine
1 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
Creature
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Blade Splicer
4 Smuggler's Copter
Sorcery
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
Instant
4 Path to Exile
3 Fatal Push
Planeswalker
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Collective Brutality
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Shadow of Doubt
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Fatal Push
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Celestial Purge
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Pithing Needle
I'm also on 4 Liliana 2 Splicer. After more matches comparing the two, I'm loving Lili. While flooding the board with Golems can be great, Liliana's effect is unique and powerful. For now I'm imagining Splicer as Souls 5+.
I used to have 2 Kitchen Finks over 2 Splicer and I can say the lighter color requirements are quite welcome. I want to test Burn more with Splicer over Finks but I have a feeling Splicer is only slightly worse. Finks is way better if you don't have to shock yourself to get WW though. I think those cards are really close in general. I could see playing a 1-1 split or 3-1/2-2 Splicer/Finks in a deck like Suechtler's.
@Suechtler
You are going into some crazy territory with these Redguy lists. I agree there aren't many red appealing red cards past Blood Moon and Kolaghan's Command. On your latest list - I dunno about the red but I'd like a 4 drop (Resto or Elspeth) over the last Sculler. I imagine Sculler as a back-up 2 drop / pseudo 3 drop since its best use is crewing Copter turn 3. It also doesn't play nice with Mutavault so it can make turns 2-4 a little awkward. Playing 4 is fine but I think the first 4 drop is better than the last Sculler.
I can also see how maxing on Sculler sort of fills in for Liliana since it's giving you more discard. So maybe 4 Sculler 4 Splicer 0 Liliana is genius. Then again Sculler is bad against Death's Shadow whereas Liliana is amazing. Splicer is fine there but probably worse than Kitchen Finks. So many options!
The more I think about it, the more I don't like the Redguy Blood Moon plan. Between Wastes and Mind Stone, Eldrazi Tron can still cast its spells under Blood Moon. They can also find Wastes with Expedition Map. It definitely slows them down but it will slow you down too, for one because it costs 3 mana. Eldrazi Tron will also probably board in Ratchet Bomb against Lingering Souls, Golems, and Copter. There are already a bunch of good cards against Titanshift in BW, e.g. Liliana of the Veil, so I don't think it's worth going crazy over that matchup. That's not to mention that the manabase is considerably worse.
This deck is great right now! It has gotten amazing upgrades in the last few blocks, e.g. Shambling Vent in Battle for Zendikar, Collective Brutality in Eldritch Moon, Concealed Courtyard and Smuggler's Copter in Kaladesh, and Fatal Push in Aether Revolt. Copter really pulls it all together and makes a third color less appealing.
I notice you beat Titanshift without Blood Moon OR Liliana. How lucky were you? lol
I went 4-2 for 10th place but I won all 6 (!) die rolls.
R1 BR Control 2-1
R2 GW Value CoCo 0-2
R3 Grixis Death Shadow 1-2
R4 Naya Value CoCo 2-0
R5 Abzan Combo CoCo (Vizier of Remedies) 2-1
R6 UB Faeries 2-1
It sounds like a cop-out but I mostly lost to mulligans and flood in rounds 2 and 3. I also didn't play any live magic for 2 weeks so I was a tad rusty. A fine record but I want the W!
I think I could have won g1 against GW Value CoCo but I screwed up a loot with Copter. I looted into Blade Splicer with Copter in hand with Lingering Souls in the yard and 4 mana available. I could have played Copter + Souls or Splicer and I went with Splicer. Not 100% clear I would have won with the other line but I think it was a pretty obvious error.
I don't think I could have won the Death's Shadow match. I got flooded g1 and his hand was the absolute stone nuts of Scalding Tarn, Thoughtseize, Death's Shadow, Death's Shadow, Serum Visions, Fatal Push, Terminate. In g3 he had a slow start but I got flooded again. Shrug. I boarded down to 23 land in g3 as well
As a bonus I lost all my prize packs playing dice after the tournament. My dice-rolling run good came to an end.
I agree about the Death's Shadow match and I still like the 24 land main / 23 after board on the draw plan.
I think it's a misconception that Lili makes dead draws better. Discarding to Liliana gets the absolute minimum value out of a card and that option is always available to you. In the case that your hand is so good you don't even want to plus Liliana, it's surely worse to have a dead card to discard instead. You could always plus and end up in the same spot either way. There is no additional value in having bad cards to discard, other than making your decision easier.
One thing I have to say is that I have not been impressed with Blade Splicer. I think I totally overestimated it in comparison to Lingering Souls. Spot removal on the Golem is usually quite good since the 1/1 is close to irrelevant without flying and, of course, there is no flashback. Maybe that would be different in a build with Restoration Angel but I'm still not a Resto fan.
Also - I'm boarding out Liliana against almost all the CoCo decks but Splicer isn't good there either! Flying is the key to our offense in that matchup. The CoCo decks either have Knight of the Reliquary or Kitchen Finks or both and either effectively blunts the Golem offensive.
So here's a slightly tweaked version that I will probably play tomorrow at a local tournament:
4 Mutavault
4 Shambling Vent
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Marsh Flats
2 Godless Shrine
1 Arid Mesa
1 Verdant Catacombs
3 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tidehollow Sculler
Artifact
4 Smuggler's Copter
Sorcery
4 Lingering Souls
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
4 Fatal Push
Planeswalker
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
I really like your list, and I'm going to try to run it for a Modern PPTQ this Saturday. Wanted to ask though, did you ever have issues with the Murderous Cut? I've been thinking about replacing it with a Thraben Inspector or a Gifted Ætherborn.
So I was wondering: is playing this sort of shell without Bob just total heresy? I haven't got Confidants but still am interested in the whole midrange-goodstuff-with-hand-disruption-and-copters sort of thing... Anyway, here's what I'm on. It's a work in progress.
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
2 Shambling Vent
2 Swamp
1 Vault of the Archangel
Creatures (6)
2 Blade Splicer
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Smuggler's Copter
Enchantments (2)
2 Bitterblossom
Instants (8)
4 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
Sorceries (11)
1 Collective Brutality
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lingering Souls
2 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers (6)
3 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Fragmentize
2 Fulminator Mage
2 Rest in Peace
2 Runed Halo
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thoughtseize
1 Timely Reinforcements
Bitterblossom, I figure, serves much the same purpose as Bob: it sits on the board and drowns your opponent in value. There are a couple of glaring disadvantages of course (it does nothing the turn it comes down, can't crew copter right away, and doesn't actually help you find answers to specific threats like Bob does), but perhaps it could make for a sufficiently grindy substitute. That being said, I don't think I'd want to run the full 4. It seems like flooding out on them could be pretty miserable, although I guess the loot scooter can help out with that.
Playing more planeswalkers also helps to make up for the raw card advantage lost by not having Confidants. Gideon in particular seems pretty awesome in this sort of configuration, since he's just so obnoxiously difficult to get rid of. Even so though, I'm not a hundred percent convinced that it's even worth trying to play without Bob; he's just that strong. What do you guys think? Is this just a pile?
Now that I think about it, perhaps I've crossed some sort of line and belong in the tokens thread? That kinda feels wrong too though, with scullers, copters, liliana etc.
Is really possible (competitively) to play:
1) pain seer instead bob
2) blinkmoth nexus instead Multavault
3) Duress instead Thoughtseize
Using this version:
3 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Blade Splicer
1 Restoration Angel
4 Smuggler's Copter
4 Lingering Souls
4 Fatal Push
4 Path to Exile
1 Liliana, The Last hope
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Concealed Courtyard
3 Shambling Vent
4 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Godless Shrine
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Swamp
3 Plains
4 Collective Brutality
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Disenchant
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Anguished Unmaking
1 Tidehollow Sculler
Thank you in advance!
I agree with the downside of Pain seer, but how often do you see yourself/opponent with no cards in hand? Since your list runs 4 Blade and 1 resto, means that blinking is not the main goal, maybe 2 Aethersphere Harvester to keep Seer tapped and go down 1 blade and other card?
3) CoBru seems good in the main deck
Many thanks!
I would suggest something like this though:
1 liliana, the last hope
2 thraben inspector
4 tidehollow sculler
4 pain seer
4 blade splicer
4 lingering souls
4 path to exile
4 inquisition of kozilek
2 collective brutality
If you could get your hands on bitterblossom, that might help a bit as well.
On a slightly different note, I've played deadguy a couple times recently, with a pretty good-stuff-y list, but I figured I'd share anyhow.
4 tidehollow sculler
4 lingering souls
3 liliana of the veil
3 gideon of the trials
1 sorin, lord of innistrad
1 sorin, solemn visitor
1 elspeth, knight-errant
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 thoughtseize
4 path to exile
3 bloodstained mire
4 marsh flats
2 godless shrine
2 plains
3 swamp
4 shambling vents
4 concealed courtyard
1 vault of the archangel
2 nihil spellbomb
2 collective brutality
2 surgical extraction
1 zealous persecution
1 fragmentize
1 damnation
1 anguished unmaking
2 stony silence
2 kor firewalker
I don't own a fetid heath, but I would probably play one instead of the seventh fetch.
Otherwise, its not got anything crazy, just very heavy on discard and planeswalkers.
I feel that W/B has a lot of good planeswalkers to utilize, and spending the first couple turns ripping someones hand apart before slamming down a walker thats probably difficult to deal with, as they likely have little board presence, is our best plan.
Thus, the deck is built to maximize this outcome.
While having so much discard can often be a problem with topdecking it later on, we have so many powerful topdecks (walkers, souls, bob) to make up for this.
Plays well enough with Copter too.
I really like old sorin, as spitting out a token every turn while going up, making permanent emblems, and an ultimate that is game swinging and reasonably easy to hit all on one card is pretty decent.
On top of that, I've already got 3 little gideons, and only 1 other sorin.
Ally of zendikar is definitely worth considering though.