MTG Salvation

For the purposes of the calculation, a crew member is any card that can crew Copter on turn 3.

I'm not super worried about Kolaghan's Command since the only popular deck playing it is Death's Shadow, they usually only have 1-2, and the rest of the deck is great against Death's Shadow.

I think you do want 16+ crew members counting Mutavault because as @Kazral said, it's not great to crew with Mutavault on turn 3. So I'd like 13-14 without Mutavault. 2% is actually a pretty big deal. I'm looking at Kitchen Finks because it's great against Burn and fine against Death's Shadow. Something like this seem good:

Can always swap those Finks for Mirran Crusaders if there isn't much Burn.

Lost in Semifinals of PPTQ today. Only 16 players and 4 rounds. Went 3-0-1 in Swiss beating Burn, Mono Green Aggro, and Burn.

In the quarters finals I beat GR Valakut but then I lost to the same Mono Green Aggro player in the semis. I was on the play g1 because I was #1 seed but I lost to double Vines of the Vastwood. G2 he kept a bad hand and I won easily. G3 I was on the draw and mulled to 5; he snap keeps 7 and goes t1 1 drop, t2 1 drop 1 drop, etc. I think I might have been able to win game 1 but there was nothing I could do in game 3. Oh well.

Hi davemo
I'm building a very similar deck, here I throw you some questions:

Dont you feel you need 1 more land? Just curious, 23 is fine for you?
I own only 3 lilianas, should include a 3c Gideon there or maybe another creature in reemplacement?
If we're going 4 Smuggler's Copter, 3 Liliana of the Veil and 1-4 Collective Brutality (Lots of self-discard) wouldnt be good running something else that likes to be discarded? I only see Lingering souls having some synergy there and that wakes me at night
Greetings from Argentina!

Yup, 23 is fine. Extra cards from Bob and Copter go a long way.

I've been thinking of a way to incorporate some more hate elements into the deck, like adding Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter package. I fear I'd have to cut down on our planeswalkers though to make the deck play nice with Thalia, which makes me nervous due to lack of lategame power. I'm also worried about having too many colorless lands, with 4x GQ and 4x Mutavault.

I just feel like the deck is too fair as it is right now. I know you (davemo88) have been having some success, but fair decks typically need more value like Tarmogoyf to keep up with other decks. I'm hoping the hate cards can play that role without messing the deck up too much. Note that I'm not trying to turn it into death and taxes: no vials and no flickerwisp (and no eldrazi). I just know from DnT experience that the Thalia Arbiter GQ package is backbreaking for a lot of the format.

Final thought: whatever happened to Pack Rat? People used to consider that a core card that pushed this deck up to relevance. Has copter taken its place as the thing to turn dead draws into value?

Here's what it might look like.

I think you could find a way to play Arbiter + Ghost Quarter but not Thalia. Most of your best cards are noncreature spells. Maybe you could sideboard it though I'm not sure where you would board it in. Storm and Ad Nauseam? There are way better sideboard cards for those specific matchups, e.g. Rule of Law.

Here's an attempt with Leonin Arbiter:

It doesn't really speak to me but it could be ok. Losing Marsh Flats is pretty harsh. It makes Fatal Push much worse when you have to use Ghost Quarter to get revolt.

I hear what you're saying about being too fair but I think sometimes we do things that are pretty unfair. We may not have 9/9's for B or infinite combos, but we can do things like:

• draw 3 cards a turn with Copter + Bob
• go Thoughtseize -> Sculler -> Liliana
• turn Shambling Vent into Baneslayer Angel with Elspeth
• cast Lingering Souls

I can see why you would want to Strip Mine some people though.

Pack Rat is best as a midrange mirror breaker but there aren't many traditional midrange decks around. Pack Rat is usually pretty embarrassing against Death's Shadow and Eldrazi Tron. If I had to play against tons of traditional Abzan and Jund I might bring back Pack Rat but I'd still play Copter too. Copter is great against all normal creature removal, especially Liliana, and it breaks Lingering Souls mirrors. If you want more late-game power then I could see playing a couple Pack Rat but I don't think it's necessary.

Copter is much better than Pack Rat because it's way less risky. For one you don't have to spend a ton of mana (6+?) for it to be good. With Pack Rat you have to choose between the Pack Rat plan and playing your other cards. With Copter you don't have to choose and it makes a huge difference. I think it's especially true against combo since you often want to cast multiple disruptive spells while presenting a clock. Pack Rat makes you give up disrupting on turn 3 which can be a critical turn for combo decks to set up. Even if you just cast Liliana of the Veil on turn 3, it's probably better to do it with a Copter in play than a Pack Rat.

@Suechtler

I think that list is great. You definitely give something up by not playing Liliana of the Veil but you gain a lot in grindy matchups with the Restoration Angel package.

My only beef with that list is I don't like Vault of the Archangel and Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth but that's pretty minor. I'm also not sure how Thraben Inspector plays out. I should probably test it. I never imagined blocking with Copter on turn 2 so I didn't see the point of 1 drop crew members, since all I cared about was attacking on turn 3. It makes sense given that you also want more value from Restoration Angel.

I have been impressed with Tidehollow Sculler lately. It's not great against Death's Shadow specifically but it makes it very safe to crew Copter and there are a lot of cards which are nice to exile instead of discard, even if it's only temporary. After Lingering Souls, I think the best crew member is close between Sculler and Splicer.

The biggest question for me is: how good is this deck against Eldrazi Tron? That matchup is rough. I can see how Resto + Splicer could be good but Liliana is pretty good there too.

Ah yes, the classic unfair play of casting lingering souls

Thanks for the well thought out response. Without thalia I don't think I would consider the arbiter package, unless we really struggle with Tron and titanshift style decks.

I'm hoping that trying your list out tomorrow night will convince me that it's packing enough heat! Keep up the good work, it's great seeing fresh life again in this archetype!

I've tested Vault of the Archangel before but I didn't like it. The effect is definitely good when it works but I found that it screwed me as a colorless land a lot more than it did anything else. It requires at least one and preferably multiple creatures in play so the combination of costing 5 mana + requiring a decent board made it too situational for my liking. I can why it would be better in a deck with Splicer + Resto.

Sculler can certainly be a weak topdeck but I think the deck already has a pretty good late game, e.g. all the manlands, planeswalkers, or Resto/Splicer. I think my win rate is highest when a turn 2 Copter goes uncontested so I like how Sculler reinforces that plan. Sculler is also nice in some of our bad matchups because Thoughtseize is one of the best cards against Tron and Titanshift and neither of those decks have too many ways to kill Sculler. I would say it occupies a similar space in my list that Thraben Inspector does in yours, i.e. a little grease for the Copter engine. Sculler is a little more biased towards the early game whereas Inspector is better later on with its cantrip.

It would be very interesting to test a bunch of different builds against Eldrazi Tron because I think that's the most problematic matchup as the deck is fairly popular. Splicer / Resto seems like a great option against them but it does get kinda wrecked by Walking Ballista.

I'd like to test something like this:

Little bit of a mash-up.

I want that 4th Splicer because blinking Splicer is the primary reason for playing Restoration Angel. Blinking other stuff is fine but it's just the backup plan so that Resto can get some minor value. Admittedly I haven't played with Resto Splicer so maybe Resto is better than I give it credit for, but it seems pretty bad by itself. I was even thinking of cutting a Lingering Souls! - but that's just crazy.

Flying is super good in the current metagame, e.g. the effectiveness of Copter as a clock, so I think playing with Restoration Angel is a good idea. The build I've been on plays 2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant and flying from the Angelic Blessing ability has been huge.

The clock is the reason I think Copter wins more than Bob on turn 2. Actual extra cards are not that different from loots on turns 3-4 and it is so much more likely that Copter can continue attacking throughout the game, not to mention the obvious additional point of power. The difference between loots and extra cards diminishes with how quickly the game ends as well.

I can't imagine putting Gifted Aetherborn in my deck lol. Maybe I have to swallow my pride and test it but it seem horrendous in general.

I will probably try a Resto / Splicer / Liliana-less version when I get the chance.

I like resto angel, but I cant see myself playing without Lili and Elspeth

And I'm in favor of Sculler, love it, at it's worst its 1x1 taking the enemy removal for a clean Dark confidant

I think eldrazi tron is very unfavorable game 1 like 65-35 ranges although coopter helps a lot with it. I have found that gifted Aetherborn is good in this mu since he can trade tns and amasher and its not like any of creatures will survive a karn ugin or balista anyway. Sb i think you can make it a 40/60-50/50 mu depending on sb. Pitting needle is pretty good imo. I alwyas lose to the balista or the planeswalkers. Ive also considered putting in surgical and trying to get super lucky with the thoughtseize turn1

Oh and i agree sculler has done work for me he is very good into combo decks that we are usually 50/50 to slightly favorable.

As far as gifted goes he is one of those cards like coopter that seem bad on paper when you play them gets good. Against burn they almost need to kill all of our creatures that are not bob. Tidehollow blinks a bolt and artherborn if he ever connects swings the game super far in your favor. Also he feels real great when he crashes into angler and tasigur. He always feels relevant due to the deathtouch and the lifelink lets you play super aggressive with bob or double bob. The only downside with him is he is double black on two which i guess is not that when your only double white is on four

One card I've liked against Eldrazi Tron is Linvala, Keeper of Silence because it shuts down Walking Ballista and Endbringer while attacking in the air. It's also great against CoCo and serviceable against Affinity so I think it's a good sideboard option.

My major beef with Aetherborn is it mostly functions as a bad removal spell. Maybe you can run away with the game against Burn every now and then but I'd rather just play Kitchen Finks and sideboard Collective Brutality. It seems like Aetherborn is worse than Blessed Alliance 90% of the time.

Went 2-2 last night with davemo's list.

R1 - BYE
This was disappointing :T

R2 - UW Control - 2-0
Both games I opened with Copter -> Bob. I drowned him in card advantage. Game 2 saw me with 2 bobs and a copter out, drawing 3 cards a turn and looting

R3 - UWR Control - 0-2
G1 I was able to 1 for 1 us both down to topdeck mode, 10 life each. He topdecked a geist of st traft and a spell queller and a lightning bolt, I topdecked 3 lands. G2 he got out an early geist of st traft protected by an eiganjo castle. I was able to stall for a while with lingering souls, but I never found an answer or a way to outrace. I chalk this round up to bad luck!

R4 - Burn - 1-2
G1 I kept a 1 lander on the draw with inquisition in hand, hoping to draw into more land. I did not. G2 He got stuck on 1 land for a while and I abused him with tidehollow sculler flying a copter. G3 Was down to the wire, with both of us in topdeck mode and under 10 life, with my full board (including a copter and shambling vent) against his empty hand and no creatures. He drew burn spells, I never saw a collective brutality to stabilize or an elspeth to race.

Overall thoughts
All-stars: Dark Confidant, Smuggler's Copter, Liliana of the Veil

I really like this deck. I think I got fairly unlucky in the topdeck battles, and in general the deck performed quite well. I didn't cast a single Elspeth, so I'll have to reserve judgment on her. My sideboard needs work! I want to add Blessed Alliance for threats like Geist of St Traft.

I also never cast a Mirran Crusader and I think I boarded it out every round. Definitely moving that to the board. Still not sold on kitchen finks because of the WW cost though. I'm really not sure what I'll put in though. Vampire Nighthawk? Open to suggestions

After some thinking and deck comparisons, I'm wondering what the advantage is here to play straight BW. Since we're playing a relatively fair midrange strategy, is there any reason to not add green for Tarmogoyf and Abrupt Decay / Maelstrom Pulse? It looks like we already have sooo much overlap with Dark Confidant based Abzan decks.

Order of whiteclay has amazing synergy with copter. Perhaps play those in matchups where you need to grind and board in crusaders in matches where he's a true name nemesis

Wow, nice results! Do you ever feel that you miss having Liliana?

As for my list, went 2-1 today in a small 6 person event. I feel a lot more confident now in staying BW and skipping green As always, bob copter lili are fantastic. I lost a game against reanimator b/c of the activation cost on Relic of Progenitus, so I'm switching to Rest in Peace for my gy hate. For my 3 drop slot, I'm going to try Brimaz, King of Oreskos and Thalia, Heretic Cathar (would be 2 brimaz but I only have 1 right now).

I played a bunch of matches with this list:

For one, I think the Eldrazi Tron matchup is better with Blade Splicer instead of Liliana. What I found across all the matches was that it's not that easy to blink your Blade Splicer with Restoration Angel. It just doesn't come up that much. I used Resto to do some block + blink but overall I was not impressed by Restoration Angel. Splicer was great though.

While I was playing, I imagined what would happen if I had Liliana instead of Splicer and Elspeth instead of Restoration Angel. Elspeth would have been better than Resto a lot of the time. Liliana and Splicer are close but I definitely missed Liliana in a few matchups. Liliana is an important out to random non-creature permanents from Blood Moon to Ensnaring Bridget to Planeswalkers to nonbasic lands.

I missed Angelic Blessing the most. Elspeth is so good on defense but the ability to suddenly produce a large attacker is amazing. I found myself wishing I could topdeck Elspeth instead of Resto. Elspeth is sorely missed as a pseudo-haste threat.

I also think this version has a tougher time sideboarding because it's harder to touch the Splicer + Resto package. I played the same sideboard from my Liliana / Elspeth version so it wasn't perfect, but I'm used to having more specialized 3 and 4 drops, e.g. in my list 4 Liliana 4 Lingering Souls 2 Kitchen Finks 2 Elspeth. I would frequently board out either 2 Kitchen Finks + 2 Elspeth or 4 Liliana. With 4 Splicer 4 Souls 3 Resto, your 3 and 4 drops are extremely similar. Splicers are significantly worse if you cut Restos and vice versa. It's also possible that Restoration Angel is unnecessary.

I think this version gains the most against Eldrazi Tron. However it doesn't actually gain that much in the matchups where Liliana is bad - mostly CoCo and Affinity which are already good matchups. Those matchups are definitely better but not by that much. I don't think it's better against Death's Shadow because their removal lines up better against Splicer and Resto than Liliana, Finks, and Elsepth.

I definitely won more than I lost with this version so I think it is still quite good. In general, I'd say Liliana and Elspeth are more powerful and flexible than Resto and Splicer. However I think both versions are great to have access to. If you were going to play against a ton of Affinity and Eldrazi Tron, the blink package is great. If you going to play against combo and Death's Shadow, go with planeswalkers.

I wasn't impressed with Resto for a couple reasons. I don't think the flash actually matters that much because the entire rest of your deck, save Path and Push, is sorcery speed. It's especially true when you have a bunch of discard since it's way better to go discard -> threat than discard -> go. There isn't much to leave up.

The floor on Resto is also pretty low. Without Splicer to blink, Resto is below the curve. There are so many 4 drops that will give you card advantage in the worst case, dominate an open board, threaten huge amount of damage, or all of those things, and Resto is not one of them.

I don't think Stubborn Denial is a dealbreaker against Death's Shadow because the deck already has a ton of Stub targets from Path and Push to Copter to Souls to Liliana and Elspeth in PW version. There is also plenty of discard and if they don't have a big creature it's easy to play around. I think the downside of potentially getting stubbed is worth the upside that a resolved Elspeth often spells game over for them as well.

I made a cool chart about the chance to crew Copter based on the number of creatures in your deck.

So far, my impression from playing the Blade Splicer/Restoration Angel deck is that the Golem plan is potentially very good against Eldrazi Tron. However it still requires fliers since Golems can't attack into Eldrazi (or Death's Shadow or Tasigur or Angler).

At this point I'm interested to see if some number of Splicer can work without Resto. I think this looks sweet:

If you run the numbers on 23-25 land, 23 maximizes the chance to draw 3-4 lands by turn 3 on the play. I usually bounce between 23 and 24 but lately I'm liking fewer.

The so-called Redguy list is definitely interesting. I'm not sure it's worth going so far to hate on Tron / Valakut (anything else?) but sideboard Blood Moon is certainly powerful. The manabase looks kinda sketchy though with 3 Plains 4 Mutavault and 0 Concealed Courtyard is a bummer. It's definitely better at triggering revolt for Fatal Push.

I'm playing a PPTQ this weekend too and I will be on the hybrid Splicer / Liliana version. Copters, ho!