Congrats Jtelgan! Your list looks like a really good assessment of what's best for the overall meta. How did you feel about your Wurmcoil verses Thragtusk split?
The want to find a one sided wipe more consistent than Bonfire of the Damned is real, but it's currently the best option. Others include:
Lavalanche (How much are you willing to risk adding a color?)
Clan Defiance (ability to take care of a problem and burn out an opponent's face but lacks the wide approach)
On wurmcoil and thragtusk:
Both fulfill similar roles in my list. Thragtusk seems better against burn and white decks while wurmcoil can always trade with multiple cards against death's shadow. Running two primal commands allowed me to have situations where I could choose which of the two were better in a given situation. In addition to thragtusk, the two stormbreaths help in matches where you're playing against path. The slot that the wurmcoil traded with was that of the 4th inferno titan. Titan is easily the fastest finisher we have access to but dies to terminate. I didn't get to play the wurmcoil against DS in the swiss but it ended up being as good/better than thragtusk against E-Tron & naya. Just playing against my roommate who is on grixis DS showed me that it's a strong card against the deck.
I think the removal we use depends on a number of factors:
1) The meta you're playing in.
2) How willing you are to lose your creature dorks to your own sweepers.
3) How important spot removal is in your build.
Personally, as I've said multiple times, Mizzium Mortars is my mainboard removal of choice. In addition to the interaction with Goblin Dark-Dwellers, 4 damage is enough in most of the match ups I have at my LGS. And Mortars doubles as both spot removal and a sweeper.
Hello, I have been playing Ponza for a little while and I have been testing and and wondering what other peoples thoughts on Ramunap Excavator are. I have been playing it as a card advantage engine akin to Courser of Kruphix some lists have played with, also thinning the deck by recurring fetches each turn to improve later game top decks once our hand has been emptied.
I have only tested it a few times as it has only been released a short while obviously but I am pretty happy with how it has been performing so far.
It makes one fetch hands with a couple dorks keepable in my experience as you get to drop it turn three and re-play your land. Bolt isn't a huge factor in the current meta, I could see it being a lot worse if it were. Also worst case scenario it effectively cantrips as you get to drop it, re play a land from the yard before it gets removed.
I have been testing it as a 2 of and also testing 2 of ghost quarter (replacing kessig wolf run & a stomping ground) but I haven't been very happy with the GQ's. Most of the time they are just mountains, I feel on paper they are probably only really good against decks that are already weak to blood moon too.
Another player from my LGS suggested running prime time in the 6 drop slot as it thins the deck and leads to better end game top decks but without the synergy such as in the amulet or valakut decks I feel like I would rather just kill my opponent with an Inferno Titan/Stormbreath Dragon/Wurmcoil Engine/etc but getting this sort of effect on a 3 drop feels a lot better.
Thoughts?
I did a quick search and didn't see it brought up, but has anyone looked at replacing red with black? You lose Blood Moon (which is obviously bad), but you have a functional (albeit harder to cast) replacement for Stone Rain in Rain of Tears and gain direct (and better) removal/better card advantage/a different set of threats (Think Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, Grim Flayer, Liliana of the Veil, and a more black/color fixing list could even try to run Phyrexian Obliterator)
I love my GR deck, but would be interested in doing some testing. You can even keep it low to the ground like the older Growza decks with Tarmogoyf/Grim Flayer or have a more overall land based deck with Courser of Kruphix/The Gitrog Monster. Obviously not trying to derail the thread and turn it into a GBx Rock conversation, but would a ponza-style deck with MWAM minus red have merit? Is it even worth talking about?
I feel that could be an interesting smallpox build. Losing the best conditionless bombs in the format does hurt. Without moon the game is a lot more uphill. I think exactly one person in the entire thread has a list without Moon.
Maybe start a thread in deck creation and post a link to it here so everyone can give their input without derailing the thread.
Hello, I have been playing Ponza for a little while and I have been testing and and wondering what other peoples thoughts on Ramunap Excavator are. I have been playing it as a card advantage engine akin to Courser of Kruphix some lists have played with, also thinning the deck by recurring fetches each turn to improve later game top decks once our hand has been emptied.
I have only tested it a few times as it has only been released a short while obviously but I am pretty happy with how it has been performing so far.
It makes one fetch hands with a couple dorks keepable in my experience as you get to drop it turn three and re-play your land. Bolt isn't a huge factor in the current meta, I could see it being a lot worse if it were. Also worst case scenario it effectively cantrips as you get to drop it, re play a land from the yard before it gets removed.
I have been testing it as a 2 of and also testing 2 of ghost quarter (replacing kessig wolf run & a stomping ground) but I haven't been very happy with the GQ's. Most of the time they are just mountains, I feel on paper they are probably only really good against decks that are already weak to blood moon too.
Another player from my LGS suggested running prime time in the 6 drop slot as it thins the deck and leads to better end game top decks but without the synergy such as in the amulet or valakut decks I feel like I would rather just kill my opponent with an Inferno Titan/Stormbreath Dragon/Wurmcoil Engine/etc but getting this sort of effect on a 3 drop feels a lot better.
Thoughts?
Ramunap Excavator and Crucible of Worlds only really work well with fetches and cards like Ghost Quarter, which means Crucible and Excavator become a lot worse when Blood Moon is out. I can see Crucible / Excavator + GQ working in a Moonless build (and I may just tinker with a design for this). What makes Courser of Kruphix good is the ability to manipulate your draws by playing the land on top instead of the one in hand. The lifegain and 4 toughness doesn't hurt either.
The extra damage Inferno Titan does is more important to us than fetching more lands. We have enough ramp in our dorks.
I did a quick search and didn't see it brought up, but has anyone looked at replacing red with black? You lose Blood Moon (which is obviously bad), but you have a functional (albeit harder to cast) replacement for Stone Rain in Rain of Tears and gain direct (and better) removal/better card advantage/a different set of threats (Think Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, Grim Flayer, Liliana of the Veil, and a more black/color fixing list could even try to run Phyrexian Obliterator)
I love my GR deck, but would be interested in doing some testing. You can even keep it low to the ground like the older Growza decks with Tarmogoyf/Grim Flayer or have a more overall land based deck with Courser of Kruphix/The Gitrog Monster. Obviously not trying to derail the thread and turn it into a GBx Rock conversation, but would a ponza-style deck with MWAM minus red have merit? Is it even worth talking about?
Hey, I'm Jon Elgan. I top 8'd the classic yesterday. I've been following this thread since January and used it as a basis for my list. I'm very confident about the main, not so much the side. Sudden shocks should probably be bolts or affinity hate, fracturing gust should probably be shatterstorm (though I did see a bogles player). Wurmcoil and slime in the main were fantastic. Primal command was great. Bonfire was great & did things no other card could have done. Ended up winning two matches off of miracles. I should've mulliganed in the top 8 playing against the 5 color shadow list, I hadn't seen deaths shadow the first two games and kept a 7 game three that had anger, finks, primal command, lands, arbor elf. He ended up playing the half of the deck that I hadn't seen yet. Probably would've gotten the match if my hand had a moon in it. Running no beast withins was a personal choice, I have rarely had that card be good in my play but that's just based on the matchups I've had. I feel like the deck is very well positioned and only lost to grixis delver in the swiss.
Deck I faced: 2 eldrazi tron, rg scapeshift, burn, naya company, grixis delver, mardu nahiri, then drew into top 8.
I have been running 3 gut shot main ( u can improve your game turn 1 and 2, but also kill birds, nobles because they can overcome blood moon). Trinisphere has been main, when u are starting this card is as good as moon, sometimes better. Colossus 2 main deck too. Very good against DS and fatal push.
I have doubts about sideboard. Should I use cage, relic or even though rest in peace. I am running slaughter games, and I love against combo decks ( Coco decks) or control. For me the worse matches up are affinity ( game 1 really difficult), burn. After gut shot games against gw combo decks has been improved.
Tbh the only reason I could see for going Black is to run 1cmc discard spells to protect Blood Moon and Trinisphere from discard. Sinkhole ain't ever getting reprinted in limited. Ever. Rain of Tears is a problem at 1BB, unless you're running a black core with Smallpox and can commit to BB or even BBB spells. But in that case, you're basically playing Monoblack with a green splash. If you had a black LD spell that cost 2B this might be a different story.
But in short, I feel like this is all moot. Losing Red isn't even an option because Blood Moon is the best card in this deck.
RG Ponza is in a good position right now so let's keep it focused.
hello everybody i'm new to writing on the forum however i have been playing ponza for almost a year. i went 10-5 last year at GP Indy with the deck. However since March i have not be able to play much with a baby on the way. I plan on going to SCG Syracuse next week and wanted to bounce some ideas of the masses. Here is my current list.
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Hazoret
2 Chameleon Colossus
3 Stormbreath
3 Titan
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Moon
4 Sprawls
2 Beast within
2 Chandra
4 Stone Rain (1)
2 Acid-Moss
2 Bonfire
1 Primal Command
9 Fetchs
3 Stomping Grounds
8 forest
1 Mountain
Now this deck is 100% not tested its just a calibration of the information that i think i know about the format and what i have read on here. I wanted to discuss a couple of cards.
1) Stone Rain - i know this is in my main deck for right now however, i noticed that decks are much faster then they were 5 months ago, and i was wondering if people have tried trinisphere in the main or even Magus of the Moon? I don't believe stone rain is where we want to be as the only match-up that i think we care about it for is eldrazi tron. Thoughts.
2) Trinisphere- As mentioned before decks have a lower many curve lately, and there seems to be more combo then i can remember in Modern. Has anybody tested this card in the main lately? Is there really an explanation on why we have never put it in the main?
3) Lightning Bolt - its safe to say lightning bolt has gotten the raw end of the deal with fatal push entering the format. I have seen a lot of people put it in the 75 my question is why? what match-up is it need in? Why not abrade or roast?
I'm sorry if any of this is a repeat, however like i said i'm just trying to get a better understanding of the format and how the deck has evolved.
Dude, trinisphere main deck is good in many games. I am running 2. About bolts, I like gut shot because all the creature I feel that I have to kill it's toughness is 1( birds, Noble, Thalia, dark confidant, etc) .
Sideboard I am testing kozilek's return because of creatures that are pro red such as burreton.
2) Trinisphere- As mentioned before decks have a lower many curve lately, and there seems to be more combo then i can remember in Modern. Has anybody tested this card in the main lately? Is there really an explanation on why we have never put it in the main?
3) Lightning Bolt - its safe to say lightning bolt has gotten the raw end of the deal with fatal push entering the format. I have seen a lot of people put it in the 75 my question is why? what match-up is it need in? Why not abrade or roast?
I'm sorry if any of this is a repeat, however like i said i'm just trying to get a better understanding of the format and how the deck has evolved.
I'm pretty sure there are a handful of players in this thread who play Trinisphere MB; from what I've seen, the majority of lists that play it have it in the side, but it has definitely been tested in the main. I personally run it in the side, but that's because my list is tailored to my meta and includes more cards with cmc < 3 compared to the standard list. Which brings me to your next point, lightning bolt.
I personally run a full set between MB and SB in addition to 2x Eidolon of the Great Revel. Abrade & Roast can't deal 3 damage to your opponents face; if we're strictly speaking in terms of creature removal, Fatal Push will almost always trump Bolt. However, it's Bolt's versatility that makes it relevant as one R for 3 damage to a creature or opponent's face is just great value. If I were to optimize my deck for a GP or another meta then it's certainly possible I would cut Bolt altogether. I've seen Bolt played in very few tournament lists and only a handful of lists posted in this primer. If you were to poll Ponza players asking who plays Bolt, I think you'd find that it's less prevalent than you've been lead to believe. The standard Ponza shell can be tinkered with quite a bit, so what you're seeing is most likely lists from players who've adapted their lists to their local meta.
I did a quick search and didn't see it brought up, but has anyone looked at replacing red with black? You lose Blood Moon (which is obviously bad), but you have a functional (albeit harder to cast) replacement for Stone Rain in Rain of Tears and gain direct (and better) removal/better card advantage/a different set of threats (Think Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, Grim Flayer, Liliana of the Veil, and a more black/color fixing list could even try to run Phyrexian Obliterator)
It's a fun idea, but Blood Moon is a central cog in the deck. However, I've been waiting years for a chance to play Nettlevine Blight in a competitive deck...
I think if you're going to add black, green is the color you want to drop. There are some pretty interesting RB Black Moon decks I've seen out there. It's basically removal, Pack Rat, Goblin Rabblemaster, Lilliana, and Blood Moon.
The best place for Ramunap Excavator atm is in Abzan Company or GW company, those 2 decks runs Horizon Canopy which is the best card to abuse with Excavator, even better with Azusa. RG Ponza doesn't run utility lands like Canopy or Ghost Quarter so Excavator might not be a good fit.
Ran Bogles tonight at FNM and got wrecked by a Ponza list running Walking Ballista. Unfortunately, I didn't get to see them in action much considering I scooped twice to T3 Blood Moon, however, it gave us some time to bull***** until the next round. I was curious as to his reasoning behind running Ballista over Wurmcoil/copies 3-4 of Inferno Titan and it came down to how well it performs against DS & Affinity. Didn't get to check out the entire list, but now I'm intrigued by Ballista. Just curious if anyone here has tried it out and if so, what're your thoughts?
So looking at potential cards for the deck came across an interesting shell --
Chameleon colossus is all creature types at once -- meaning he is a dragon; him along with stormbreath could have added protection with thunderbreak reagent --- meaning that if anything targets your stuff it's all dragons so they get a bolt to the face---
Idea # 2 is that chameleon colossus counts also as a samurai --- which makes Godo, Bandit warlord an interesting choice--- you can run a one of batterskull in the list and then if you cast a Godo for 6 mana you're going wide with a 3/3, a tutored up batterskull and then also synergising with your chameleon as it now gets multiple attack steps---
Lol maybe another cute idea the deck doesn't need, but just thought it was a cool thing you could do.
I might brew this up for fun -- samurai dragon Ponza!
I've been working on a primer writeup for the deck and came across the dragon build. Seems interesting but a little more cute than substance. I could be wrong though.
Godo is an entirely new concept to me, might have to goldfish it a bit to see how it feels.
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The want to find a one sided wipe more consistent than Bonfire of the Damned is real, but it's currently the best option.
Others include:
Both fulfill similar roles in my list. Thragtusk seems better against burn and white decks while wurmcoil can always trade with multiple cards against death's shadow. Running two primal commands allowed me to have situations where I could choose which of the two were better in a given situation. In addition to thragtusk, the two stormbreaths help in matches where you're playing against path. The slot that the wurmcoil traded with was that of the 4th inferno titan. Titan is easily the fastest finisher we have access to but dies to terminate. I didn't get to play the wurmcoil against DS in the swiss but it ended up being as good/better than thragtusk against E-Tron & naya. Just playing against my roommate who is on grixis DS showed me that it's a strong card against the deck.
1) The meta you're playing in.
2) How willing you are to lose your creature dorks to your own sweepers.
3) How important spot removal is in your build.
Personally, as I've said multiple times, Mizzium Mortars is my mainboard removal of choice. In addition to the interaction with Goblin Dark-Dwellers, 4 damage is enough in most of the match ups I have at my LGS. And Mortars doubles as both spot removal and a sweeper.
I have only tested it a few times as it has only been released a short while obviously but I am pretty happy with how it has been performing so far.
It makes one fetch hands with a couple dorks keepable in my experience as you get to drop it turn three and re-play your land. Bolt isn't a huge factor in the current meta, I could see it being a lot worse if it were. Also worst case scenario it effectively cantrips as you get to drop it, re play a land from the yard before it gets removed.
I have been testing it as a 2 of and also testing 2 of ghost quarter (replacing kessig wolf run & a stomping ground) but I haven't been very happy with the GQ's. Most of the time they are just mountains, I feel on paper they are probably only really good against decks that are already weak to blood moon too.
Another player from my LGS suggested running prime time in the 6 drop slot as it thins the deck and leads to better end game top decks but without the synergy such as in the amulet or valakut decks I feel like I would rather just kill my opponent with an Inferno Titan/Stormbreath Dragon/Wurmcoil Engine/etc but getting this sort of effect on a 3 drop feels a lot better.
Thoughts?
I love my GR deck, but would be interested in doing some testing. You can even keep it low to the ground like the older Growza decks with Tarmogoyf/Grim Flayer or have a more overall land based deck with Courser of Kruphix/The Gitrog Monster. Obviously not trying to derail the thread and turn it into a GBx Rock conversation, but would a ponza-style deck with MWAM minus red have merit? Is it even worth talking about?
EDIT:
Some random big mana threats that could synergize with a GB ponza shell:
Hellcarver Demon
Dread Defiler
Tasigur, the Golden Fang
Fendeep Summoner (loose, but imagine animating their lands and decaying/pushing them + animating your own lands speeds up the game)
The Gitrog Monster (Synergizes with Courser of Kruphix-based lists)
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet (Just a house against aggro)
Phyrexian Obliterator
Ponza as a Deck has jumped colors many times.
I feel that could be an interesting smallpox build. Losing the best conditionless bombs in the format does hurt. Without moon the game is a lot more uphill. I think exactly one person in the entire thread has a list without Moon.
Maybe start a thread in deck creation and post a link to it here so everyone can give their input without derailing the thread.
The extra damage Inferno Titan does is more important to us than fetching more lands. We have enough ramp in our dorks.
Black isn't a good color for LD (unless we get Sinkhole), you can go GB with Death Cloud/Smallpox but it will be a different deck.
Red is miles better for this strategy.
I have been running 3 gut shot main ( u can improve your game turn 1 and 2, but also kill birds, nobles because they can overcome blood moon). Trinisphere has been main, when u are starting this card is as good as moon, sometimes better. Colossus 2 main deck too. Very good against DS and fatal push.
I have doubts about sideboard. Should I use cage, relic or even though rest in peace. I am running slaughter games, and I love against combo decks ( Coco decks) or control. For me the worse matches up are affinity ( game 1 really difficult), burn. After gut shot games against gw combo decks has been improved.
But in short, I feel like this is all moot. Losing Red isn't even an option because Blood Moon is the best card in this deck.
RG Ponza is in a good position right now so let's keep it focused.
4 Arbor Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
1 Hazoret
2 Chameleon Colossus
3 Stormbreath
3 Titan
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Moon
4 Sprawls
2 Beast within
2 Chandra
4 Stone Rain (1)
2 Acid-Moss
2 Bonfire
1 Primal Command
9 Fetchs
3 Stomping Grounds
8 forest
1 Mountain
Sideboard
3 Trinisphere (2)
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Bolts (3)
3 Anger
2 Graffdigger's
1 Dismember
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Shatterstorm
Now this deck is 100% not tested its just a calibration of the information that i think i know about the format and what i have read on here. I wanted to discuss a couple of cards.
1) Stone Rain - i know this is in my main deck for right now however, i noticed that decks are much faster then they were 5 months ago, and i was wondering if people have tried trinisphere in the main or even Magus of the Moon? I don't believe stone rain is where we want to be as the only match-up that i think we care about it for is eldrazi tron. Thoughts.
2) Trinisphere- As mentioned before decks have a lower many curve lately, and there seems to be more combo then i can remember in Modern. Has anybody tested this card in the main lately? Is there really an explanation on why we have never put it in the main?
3) Lightning Bolt - its safe to say lightning bolt has gotten the raw end of the deal with fatal push entering the format. I have seen a lot of people put it in the 75 my question is why? what match-up is it need in? Why not abrade or roast?
I'm sorry if any of this is a repeat, however like i said i'm just trying to get a better understanding of the format and how the deck has evolved.
Sideboard I am testing kozilek's return because of creatures that are pro red such as burreton.
I'm pretty sure there are a handful of players in this thread who play Trinisphere MB; from what I've seen, the majority of lists that play it have it in the side, but it has definitely been tested in the main. I personally run it in the side, but that's because my list is tailored to my meta and includes more cards with cmc < 3 compared to the standard list. Which brings me to your next point, lightning bolt.
I personally run a full set between MB and SB in addition to 2x Eidolon of the Great Revel. Abrade & Roast can't deal 3 damage to your opponents face; if we're strictly speaking in terms of creature removal, Fatal Push will almost always trump Bolt. However, it's Bolt's versatility that makes it relevant as one R for 3 damage to a creature or opponent's face is just great value. If I were to optimize my deck for a GP or another meta then it's certainly possible I would cut Bolt altogether. I've seen Bolt played in very few tournament lists and only a handful of lists posted in this primer. If you were to poll Ponza players asking who plays Bolt, I think you'd find that it's less prevalent than you've been lead to believe. The standard Ponza shell can be tinkered with quite a bit, so what you're seeing is most likely lists from players who've adapted their lists to their local meta.
It's a fun idea, but Blood Moon is a central cog in the deck. However, I've been waiting years for a chance to play Nettlevine Blight in a competitive deck...
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
RG Waxing Gibbous Ponza RG
EDH: Xenagos, God of Revels.
Link to Discord server where anybody from MTGS can keep up with thread topics while everything is being sorted out with the new site.
Chameleon colossus is all creature types at once -- meaning he is a dragon; him along with stormbreath could have added protection with thunderbreak reagent --- meaning that if anything targets your stuff it's all dragons so they get a bolt to the face---
Idea # 2 is that chameleon colossus counts also as a samurai --- which makes Godo, Bandit warlord an interesting choice--- you can run a one of batterskull in the list and then if you cast a Godo for 6 mana you're going wide with a 3/3, a tutored up batterskull and then also synergising with your chameleon as it now gets multiple attack steps---
Lol maybe another cute idea the deck doesn't need, but just thought it was a cool thing you could do.
I might brew this up for fun -- samurai dragon Ponza!
Godo is an entirely new concept to me, might have to goldfish it a bit to see how it feels.